UKC

hiya, can anyone suggest any mixed grade v6 and VI 6 routes in scotalnd or in the lakes that would be a good idea for me as i'm getting my backside kicked a bit after flying up grade Vs last year (mostly on the ben ..minus two, point 5, hadrian's wall that sort of thing) i'm finding the transition to VIs difficult, i've also started using leashless axes which is 'interesting'but i can see the benefits..

feel on a steep learning curve right now so any top tips or route ideas would be greatly appreciated. i know the transition is also about what my head is allowing/not allowing me to do :o/

cheers
Andrea

In reply to pork pie girl:

Since the Vs you mentioned are mostly ice rather than mixed, wouldn't some mixed Vs be a better option than mixed VIs first, or did you just not mention mixed Vs that you've done?

In reply to pork pie girl:

I think you're right about leashless. For many people it isn't the paradigm shift it was made out to be.

Crest Route on Stob Coire nan Lochan is a must do at V 6 and a good intro to steep mixed. Chimney route on the same crag is also amazing at VI 6.

In reply to pork pie girl:
Grade 6 is top end for me but I did climb The Message in Sneachda a couple of years back which goes at IV/6 [mixed]. Good protection and I found it OK and very good.'Though I'm not sure that I should be passing on this advice to you - I'm a vegetarian - to boot.

In reply to Glen:

yes, you're right more mixed vs would be good, the mixed v5s i've done have worked out ok so far, it's the tech 6 round about grade v and vi that i'm getting my bum kicked.. managing iv6 mixed ok.

but more milage on mixed generally is a good plan

In reply to DaveHK:

yes, crest route is one i've thought about, maybe one for our next trip, i'll have a look at the chimney route too

In reply to pork pie girl:

Recess Route and North Wall Grooves on the Cobbler are also good and accessible at V 6. NWG in particular can feel hard at the grade sometimes.

I always think the northern corries are the spot to go to push your grade.

In reply to pork pie girl:

If you are up there, scabbard chimney is pretty popular at V,6 too.

In reply to pork pie girl:

Just mileage at a slightly lower grade. Lots of v's in all sorts of different conditions/styles, etc.

In reply to pork pie girl:

Be careful with Crest Route, the direct finish is quite a bit harder than the left variation! Scabbard Chimney is a good V,6 in the same area. Other suggestions: Menage a Trois on Beinn an Dothaidh, West Chimney on Bidean (now IV,6), Stringfellow, Tower Face of the Comb and Gargoyle Wall are all good VI,6's on the Ben, Pot of Gold, The Hoarmaster and Savage Slit in the Cairngorms are worth a try, as is Eagle Ridge on Lochnagar if conditions are good.

In reply to pork pie girl:

Could be worth choosing a rock type and even venue you are familiiar with to try something harder on, as opposed to trying a southern highlands VI if you aint been on schist before for example.

In reply to pork pie girl: Bowfell Buttress is the obvious Lakes choice. 4 good, well protected pitches.

In reply to Tom Ripley:

that's one of the ones i got spanked on.. fell of leading the third pitch! good route though

In reply to pork pie girl:

Me too!

In reply to pork pie girl:

Hi there, met you briefly at the bottom of Two Grooves earlier in the season, how did that go?

From the ones I've done Savage Slit, Scabbard Chimney, The Message and Pot of Gold were I thought all good ones at tech 6 to get started on. If you found Two Grooves ok then Slab Climb Buttress on St. Sunday Crag, (in the fell and rock site new routes section,) is very good. If you want something more out there in terms of location then Sticle Face is good; the crux is ice but there is still some good mixed climbing on it.

Once you've done some of these see what you feel like next. (I found Chimney route on SCNL very bold when we did it under icy conditions. It is excellent, but I'm not sure it's what you are looking for.)

Can I ask which axes you are using leashless? I originally experimented with leashless on a set of flies with bits added, but have found it much more enjoyable since I have started using grivel x monsters as it is more curved and so puts your hand / wrist in a more relaxed / neutral position. I think there are leashless setups out there that are adapted leashed tools, (adapted by the manufacturer not individuals,) and then there are tools designed for leashed climbing. In my, (perhaps limited?) experience a tool specifically designed to be used leashless is far better.

In reply to pork pie girl: Buy the new Welsh guide ...heaps in there.

Black Ladders is full of them:

Western Gully (Direct) V/VI 6/7 *** (usual more VI than V)

or the Variation: Right-Hand Finish. V 5 ***

Poppies. VI 6 **

Bird Song. VI 6 ** (cover of the new guide)

Ypres. VI 6 ***

and loads more ...

El Mancho is worth a punt...its given VI 7 but there is never a move of 7 on it. Cracking value at VI 6 though

Might have to wait until it gets chilly again though as its crap out that way at the min.

In reply to DaveHK:

Crest Route is technically more sustained than Chimney Route, I think the've got the grades around wrong way with these two?

Hear Ericks good news?

Stuart

In reply to Exile:

hiya, two grooves went ok considering it was my second session out climbing since the end of august..i found the move from the groove up onto the ledge before the crack on the awkward but figures it out.. we enjoyed it. were you the bloke who i chatted to before you led it? i was the one with the red and grey ME jacket who led it after you and oyur pal went up it.

i was using grivel machines adapted with some petzl triggers on for palcing hand higher up the shaft but have found the grip rest at teh bottom almost onon existent, since my arsoe kicking on bowfell and viking buttress left hand variant (i feel like i'm in confession.. not thati know how that feels) i was bought some petzl nomics for christmas and have found them very good, a little more pumpy but better. in order to get the most out of them i have decided to train at a climbing wall instead of just being a gym junkie during the week as i need to improve my forearm and grip strength.. mostr peopel i climb with train at a wall too.. speaks volumes really.

those routes you've suggested sound great.. i'm ok with bold as long i'm coping with the moves ok if you now what i mean?

andrea

In reply to pork pie girl:

Stand out ones for me are:

North Wall Groove V,6
Recess Route V,6
Purple Blaze V,6
The Sting V,6
North Face Route V,6 (Buachaille)
Damnation VI,6
Crest Route V,6

Having 'sent' these, your transition to VI, should feel more appropriate.

Stuart

Ps. Axes are only as good as who's using them.

In reply to mux:

thanks for the info you lot, i've cut and pasted it all the suggested routes.. really good to get some advice

i must get to wales too Mux .. fingers crossed for a cold snap down there

In reply to Stuart the postie:

cheers stuart.. and totally agree with you about the axes..i've seen people climb brilliantly with straight shafted axes that are years and years old..

In reply to pork pie girl:

Thanks for your kind words..................!

Stuart

In reply to pork pie girl:

I think your number one priority has to be leading routes in comfort. Personally, I've never taken any particular enjoyment from scraping up a route, even if that route advances my lead grade. Taking falls will do little for your confidence (as I'm sure you know), as will retreats and pulling on gear. Better to cruise numerous IV,s than gibber up a single VI.

In reply to pork pie girl:

I was a couple of pairs ahead of you in the line, (blue jacket, meteor helmet with a dragon on the front of it, yellow fell running pack and X Monsters.) My mate was leading the bottom pitch as you got there.

Climbing wall would probably be a good idea; mixed climbing obviously has a lot more in common with rock climbing than ice does.

In reply to Exile:

and we were after PPG and last in the queue !

In reply to Stuart the postie:
>> Hear Ericks good news?

Aye. I think he'd have gone nuts if the nipper hadn't arrived that day!

I think chimney route is VI 6 cos it can be a lot bolder if iced up.

In reply to DaveHK:

I'd agree that Chimney Route should stay VI,6 and Crest Route V,6 but only for the variation finish; the direct warrants V,7 judging by the number of people who fail on it!

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Sorry for the slight hi-jack but is chimney route reasonably well protected when not iced?

In reply to DaveHK:

I've done it twice, with and without, don't really get gear until that block, then turfy crack above. It's back and foot, up to there, every move's a rest?

I think it's ok for V,6. Similar type routes like Default Mode V,6, pitch 2 The Sting V,6, North Face Route V,6, bolder in comparison. Anyway.....

Stuart

In reply to Tom Knowles:

Having looked at it (on second, removing the gear, cos friend stepped dowm, then variation), a guess at V,8???? I think back in the day, Hamilton was also an exceptional rock climber, perhaps he used his hands??

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie: parts of North face route felt pretty goey for a V, especially that steep wall after the traverse. Flat hooks, fiddly gear and an ankle breaking slab below. Great route though, pity it doesn't finish on a summit.

In reply to sgl:

Yes it is, hence I recommended it! It does finish on the summit, after continueing up Curved Ridge, a proper day out.

When I initially read the post, I thought they were running up V's, found them straight forward, but VI was too hard. After 'sending' those on my list, would be better mentally and physicaly prepared, to tackle VI,7. Indeed, most on my list 'could by many' be considered undergraded, I consider them benchmark routes for their rock type.

I noticed you climbed Great Central Groove, awesome line, how did you find the top pitch? Having climbed it last season (via variation top pitch, since chimney was bare), had the privelage of climbing the best parts again and completing, THE route I most wanted to climb in Scotland!!!

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the Postie:

I'm glad your chuffed. After carefull consideration, I think that North Face Route just pips Great Central Groove, which just nudges North Wall Groove - hey they're all great routes and it's hard to say which is better, I climbed them in great condition and great company so all were good days. North Face Route is one of these less repeated routes that must be getting hammered this season - if not it should be as I think it's up there with the best of the best - Top Gun stuff Maverick!

Andy

In reply to pork pie girl:

eagle ridge lochnagar, my friend once vomited on me when he led above me having consumed 3 melton mobrays.

In reply to pork pie girl:

Agree with what others have said; V,5 on ice and V,6 on mixed are two completely seperate grades, almost 2 seperate sports in fact! There are plenty folk out there who will do one but not the other.

If you havent done a ton of mixed there is loads to be gained from getting mileage on IV,5s; some of them like Raw Egg Buttress, Naismiths Route on the Buachaille or Original Summer Route in Sneachda are to me technically much harder than a well-iced Ben classic V,5.

Of the routes that folk have mentioned, West Chimney is a givaway with good neve; more like IV,5 earlier this season. Pot of Gold is tech 6 but with very good gear (overhead on the crux) so maybe IV,6? I was puffing a bit on Scabbard Chimney but a lot of folk say it's easy at the grade, and the pro was certainly very good.

My first true V,6 was Talliballan in the Grey Corries. Reputed to be quite hard at the grade but when you're stood at the bottom of this towering corner-system you just have to do it. Inspiration and a quality line are equally important motivators to pushing your grade!

In reply to crieff427:

three!!!? that's asking for trouble. i'm more of a eccles cake girl this winter season.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

cheers for the advice jamie, do you know if any of the minus gullies have been done this season yet, or is it too early? what's minus one like for a VI?

In reply to pork pie girl:

Havent done either, and pretty sure no-one else has this season. Friends did both 1 and 2 in a day a season or two ago and reckoned that in good conditions there wasnt much between them. I'm concentrating on mountaineering at the moment (1 day re-assessment coming up) but come February am keen to get back into V,6 terrain again myself; give us a shout if you need a partner.

In reply to pork pie girl: Bowfell Buttress is V,6 but a tough one. I found Scabbard Chimney, West Chimney Route both easier. West Chimney route is a must do route.
Looks like your climbing a similar standard to me and like me looking to get on some VI's and more V,6's.
Ones I have in mind are:
Chimney Route (SCNL)
Crypt Route (Bidean)
Pisgah Buttress Direct
Savage Slit/Pot of Gold/Hoarmaster (Northern Corries)
Minus Gullies.

In reply to pork pie girl:

what's minus one like for a VI?

Cruxy rather than sustained. I thought Mega Route X more sustained but not quite at technical when I did it, so that may be a good one to get on first.

In reply to Exile:

Mega Route X seems to have been remarkably reluctant to form in recent years; cant actually remember last time it was complete.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Too high probably!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

i did minus 2 last year and it was straight forward, but teh conditions were very good.

will get in touch about getting out once you've got your assessment out of the way.. good luck with that (the assessment. not getting out with me!)

In reply to Martin Haworth:

ok, cheers for those ideas for routes

In reply to pork pie girl: Minus 1 I thought was a lot harder than minus 2, I did each on consecutive days last winter, both are more demanding than Orion or point 5. Slab climb and Cutlass were for me much much easier and a good intro to Ben Nevis VI. Gargoyle wall was quite a bit harder than Slab climb and Cutlass but easier than minus 1. Scabbard chimney is a gift at the grade. Chimney route is similar in difficulty to Gargoyle wall. North Wall Groove is an excellent route well protected on the crux but with tenuous rather than technically demanding moves. Spectre is another good route in SCNL slightly easier than Chimney route but harder than scabbard. NW face on the douglas boulder for me was a ***V,6 with a really good crux protected by a chockstone (overhead).

Hope you get out and have another good season.

Ron

In reply to Ronbo: really thought provoking post, like it! some very interesting comparisons

I had a bigger battle with Spectre than Chimney route and thought it was bolder, but same grade, whatever that is!

In reply to Erik B:

Hmmmmmn ?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie: nae idea mate, Ive given up grading things I know your a chimney route fan so you can suggest a grade for it

In reply to pork pie girl:

Minus one is cruxy but brilliant and not too scary (if you don't mind strenuous, out of balance moves with your spikes on holds that are all in the wrong place and at the wrong angle for the moves!) and the rest of the route is still interesting and quality---well worth doing! The buttress to the left is absolutely outstanding---technical, balancy and quite bold, in the conditions I did it the hardest Scottish winter route I've done, withoout a doubt. In the latest guide it's given VII so might be worth holding off on that till you've consolidated VI---although I did it as a VI soona after doing Slav Route and it came as something of a shock. Not quite as much as doing Bowfell Buttress when it was still graded III though!

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Both times I climbed Chimney Route, both partners lead 1st pitch, but didn't, if you follow me!

One, a stronger mixed climber, the other more accomplished on ice! Both didn't find conditions, suited to their prefered medium!

We agree, V is a serious grade, I didn't find 2 and 3 above, sufficiently sustained to merrit VI overeall, then again this type of route appeals to my abbilities???!

Where has trees and no mountains?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Chimney route iced is pretty good sport and like others have said bold, now if you really do like sandbags, the direct finish to Ravens is quite sporting, traditional Vl. Thrutch away to your hearts content and think back to Mcinnes wedged in stockinged feet unable to go up or down.

To the OP get on the snowed up rock routes in the Corries to learn the art of hoovering, Savage slit, Deep throat, Hoarmaster all great outings and remember time spent digging up the classic lV mixed routes in poor conditions is time well spent.

In reply to Stuart the postie: I remember Chimney route being steep and icy, with my partner climbing it facing right and me following facing left, we both thought quite sporting. Wee holes in the walls - first time I wished I was wearing monopoint crampons as my duels wouldn't fit. Spectre was more like a thinly iced slab with rock gear, not too steep but lower quality hooks.

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

I would suggest, any route on the Buachaille, could be considered a sandbag for the grade.

Purple Blaze is bolder than Chimney Route, can we give that VI then?

Since you're on here, I was on Brack, Sunday, someone may have borrowed some of Hogwarts, can you send me description, please?

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie: hmmmmmm? you talkin to yerself? I think I was on it that day with you, I plead very blunt mixed crampons rather than being feart of ice! ha ha!!

aye, stuff it, give everything on the lists so far V, job done

no mountains and hunners of trees is Finland mate, long story!

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Postie are you involved in a new guide? what were they up to, is the description for Hogwarts not in the journal.

Purple Blaze is a sore point it was me with Frank Yeoman that made the first complete ascent, we aproached the day after their ascent by the chimmney oblivious to there efforts, to find there tracks coming in from monolith grooves. We should recieve credit for the first complete ascent, but then we are not in the SMC are we, Tom Prentice knows this i think, sorry to air my dirty washing on here!.

In reply to Conquistador of the usless: hear hear

postie, get capn burnseye on the case and get the history updated to tell the truth!

In reply to pork pie girl:

Fallout Corner would be a good one to go for; it's like V,6 but more sustained (definitely not tech 7).

Gargoyle Wall is steady but quite sustained over its 5 pitches.

Cloudwalker (also on the Ben) is very soft and would be a good first VI.

Cutlass would be a good first V,6 (never VI,7). Good gear every metre if you wanted!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Really V 6 for cutlass, we made the FWA in a full on gale, after bailing from something icy, i don't think we could place any friends because it was verglased not that we really carried many any way, so it's not much harder than point five then, interesting.

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

yep same standard as point 5. It's good nut gear the whole way up the corner. If you climbed it in a gale I'm not surprised that you found it harder though.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yeah it was pretty blowy, this was also an early foray into the realms of snowed up rock for us, my god 1989!!?? it makes me laugh, i think john was wearing footfangs!

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

Didnt it originally get VI,8?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

We gave it V/Vl it seems reasonable it is VS in summer and unless i'm mistaken doesn't ice up.

In reply to pork pie girl:
Don't think anyone has mentioned Route I on Ben. I thought it was an excellent VI 6. Nowhere desperate. Three good pitches. Lower risk of hurting yourself than many VI 6s. Mixed (unlike many suggestions above!) And not as far to walk as many Ben routes...

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

I think I remember seeing those pictures in the mags and wanting footfangs!

In reply to Conquistador of the usless:

The Elephant Train V,6 (scottishwinter).

Starts up Elephant Gully, traverses left along big ledge, joins p5 Mainline/Hogwarts.

I don't have the journal, I will have input towards future Guide though, since my friend, Burnsie (SMC), has asked me to help him.

I remember you telling me this story before, thanks again for reminding me. As far as I'm comcerned, will credit you with FA, now for that difficult question, grade..........??

Stuart

In reply to TobyA:

I used to have Footfangs, shit for mixed, would certainly feel harder than V wearing them!!

Interestingly though, warmest crampons I've ever worn.

Stuart

In reply to TonyM:

Seemed to me every chance of falling out of the chimney on the third pitch and hurting myself badly on the third pitch (I ran away.....!)

In reply to pork pie girl: Tower Face of the Comb seemed to me to be a reasonable VI,6. The crux pitch had enough gear, and although the route was quite sustained, it was never desperate. The only other VI,6 I'd led was Chimney Route, which I thought was slightly easier.

Anyone any thoughts on Stringfellow?

In reply to KA:

Not too hard and very good. Can be a bit bold but only on the easier passages.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I know where you mean. Probably 50:50 about who would come of worse if you fell out of the final flared chimney: leader or the belayer below. Actually though you can get surprisngly well wedged in when fighting upwards that falling out is not the main concern. But of course all these things are relative, and not many VI 6s are clip-ups with overhead gear.

In reply to Stuart the postie: Do you know if there is a target date for the next edition of the Arran + Arrochar guide at all? I realise it's all done on a voluntary basis and a sterling job too, so appreciate it takes as long as it takes, just curious that's all.

In reply to TonyM:

I am just too tall to bend my knees enough to get myself wedged into that chimney - totally insecure!


Absolutely. I think if I was recommending routes to someone wanting to break into grade VI, I would tend to go for VI 7's since they tend to be somewhat safer than VI 6's.

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Stuart managed to unearth this description for Hogwarts Express, i will put it here just in case anyone else is interested, it sounds quite good, i hope i'm not prone to exageration!

The Brack: Hogwarts Express 125m Vl7 Andy Clarke, Frank Yeoman, Jan 4 02
Stella mixed climbing with great exposure. Climbs the right edge of the wall, right of Great central groove/Resolution,finishing up the oblique tapered fault.
(much verglas on this ascent) start at the toe of the wall.
1.40m climb up to an obvious line trending up and right(as for Resolution) continue right climbing a short wall, to belay below a steep wall on the edge.
2.15m climb steeply above the belay into an overhung niche, move left (bold) to a thin turf ledge, then more easily to a turf ledge.
3. 30m Traverse left a short distance then tackle the wall direct, aiming for a vague crack in it's upper half, move right crossing an iced slab to reach a ledge below the oblique tapered fault of Mainline.
4. Climb the fault, when it overhangs move onto the edge, to easy ground below the final wall.
5. 10m The steep thinly iced wall above(as for Mainline summer).

Regarding the grade of Purple Blaze, i'm happy with what ever the consensus is, you must have a good idea.

In reply to DH3631:

At present the plan is that Arran will go in the Hebrides guide and Arrochar in the next Glen Coe guide. There is no set date yet for Arrochar/Glen Coe, but the timing depends on sales and production space at least as much as author efforts.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: SO will the rest of the southern highlands get a guide of their own?

In reply to MattG:

Sorry, I meant that Arrochar and Southern Highlands will both go in with Glen Coe. And yes it does mean that two volumes hasn't been ruled out.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Ah right, sounds good to me, thanks for the reply

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Certainly sounds quite hefty for one volume. I'd be thinking about farming out Ardnamurchan to Highland Outcrops and Garbheinn to Ben Nevis area; they're both quite out on a limb from the rest of the new proposed massif.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Yes that's part of the provisional plan, except all to Ben Nevis at present. But it will depend on how big Highland Outcrops is.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Aye, Highland Outcrops is a bit of a wild card I suppose, being less regional and more of a "best of the rest" latecomer. It must be difficult trying to realign the guides when the production is so staggered. Personally I always thought there was an argument for a seperate series for outcrops/cragging and another for mountain routes/winter, as these seem to me to be largely seperate markets.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

The snag is that the outcrop guides would sell plenty and the mountain guides very few. It would be a financial disaster. You can't make a profit on outcrop guides to balance mountain guides - there just isn't a big enough overall market in Scotland.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


Especially now that other guidebooks are making inroads into that market. Totally hypothetical of course, but would a 3-volume (comprehensive) Scottish Winter Climbs not be a seller?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

That's interesting. I'd have assumed locals (in the broadest sense - ie Scots) would be interested in both and visitors more likely to be travelling up for a crack at mountain gems.

In reply to niallk:

I suspect that a lot of visitors are happy to just buy one of the various selected guides; they dont need the depth of info that the area guides give them.

In reply to mux:

Yes, don't forget Snowdonia as you're not too far away if you're in Manchester. Western Gully direct with the right hand finish is brilliant mixed climbing at hard V or VI and the route is as long as a lot of the stuff up in Scotland. Nothing to do in Snowdonia at the moment but hopefully it will all come back.