UKC

Further to the soloing thread a number of people have asked this question but no ones answered it yet. Take a typical grade I/II gulley there are climbers in it & a skier drops in say not being able to see the climbers from the top. Who takes precedence?

My personal take on this is it should be the skier as any conditions that make it safe to climb are likely to be far more common than conditions that make it safe to ski. Just wondering what others thoughts are on this?

In reply to Frank4short: If I have a pair of axes in my hand, then I've priority

In reply to Frank4short:
think it depends, first come first served

onless the skier is already pelting it down from a gully or something further up, dont want to be railroaded by a skier who cant stop

In reply to Frank4short: A wise skier climbs up a gully before he skis down..for a number of reasons..thought you would know this,the situation doesnt arise then.

In reply to Frank4short:

extracted from FIS rules of conduct

1. Respect for others

A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.

2. Control of speed and skiing or snowboarding

A skier or snowboarder must move in control. He must adapt his speed and manner of skiing or snowboarding to his personal ability and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as well as to the density of traffic.

3. Choice of route

A skier or snowboarder coming from behind must choose his route in such a way that he does not endanger those ahead.

In reply to Frank4short:

I don't know what you mean by 'take precedence'. Do you perhaps mean (a) who's to blame if they collide? Or (b) who should get out of the way? Or (c) if both approach the gully simultaneously, who should allow who to go first?

My thoughts:

(a) The person to blame if they collide is whoever is in motion and can't control it well enough to stop before colliding.

(b) Neither should "get out of the way". They should just avoid colliding.

(c) This isn't really very likely to happen is it, that they both appear at EXACTLY the same moment? But if it was me climbing, I'd want the skier to get down it before I started climbing up it. And if it was me skiing, I'd avoid a gully that I saw any climbers in. Because if there's one lot, there might be another lot that I can't see.

In reply to Frank4short:
f*ck all to do with conditions and who gets perfect conditions more often.

First come first served, although skiers should be aware of the possibity of climbers lower down the gully, and if they encounter them, should give the climbers the chance to complete the pitch, or at least make themselves safe. Could you imagine edges of skis, rock, ice and rope, not a good combination.

In reply to Frank4short:

Alpine etiquette (if you're not a French guide) is that descending parties should give way to ascending parties. I assume this applies to skiers too?

Iain

In reply to Frank4short:

I'm not much of a skier, but would you not be stupid to ski a gully with people climbing up it? I know as a climber I wouldn't climb a gully that was being skied!

In reply to Frank4short:

Surely not a matter of precedence but of whoever has the abilty to move out of the way, both are just as entitled to be there as the other therefore if the skier can go around the climbers then he should do and if the climbers have the abilty to move out of the path of the skier then surely anyone with half a brain would do?

If theres an unavoidable colision then its just that unavoidable.

In reply to Frank4short:

Even as a skier more than a winter climber I know that's wrong. See popebenedictus's edict.

In reply to Frank4short:

I don't think it is a case of "priority", it is more a case of everyone involved being sensible and trying to accomodate the other safely.

Should the situation ever arise, if it was me (on skis), I would probably wait until the climbers were at a belay, or stopped in a safe spot. I would then hope that they would wait until I was passed them. As a skier, my descent would be a lot faster that a climbers ascent, so could afford to wait.

Usually, I don't head for gullies when there are likely to be people in them - i.e. when they contain "spring snow", and climbing conditions aren't good.

I am aware that there have been many close calls in Easy Gully on Aonach Mor with ascending/descending climbers, and skiers.

In reply to leeangell:

Good post. Like you say thins will come down to common sense on the day and circumstances. Trying to thrash out something on the internet is pointless.

In reply to IainMunro:
I would always give way to the party ascending just like I would give way to a person in a car coming up hill or as general courtesy dictates. You are more likely to slip on descent than the party ascending so common sense has to prevail also.

In reply to Scomuir:

Seems reasonable. As a skiier I'd be well aware that the amount of snow I'd be knocking down would be pretty unpleasent for anyone coming up, not to mention the fear of me coming down out of control. I would however expect them to take action to get out of the way as soon as possible, so if they continued to plod upwards without taking any action I'd assume they were happy to share the slope

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Assuming probably isn't the best thing. They might assume you are happy to wait and don't need to make any effort to let you by, while you are getting frustrated that they are holding you up unnecessarily. Communication is the key. If there isn't anywhere obvious for the climbers to go to, then the skier waits. If there is, then a discussion should result a compromise.


There has only been one time when I've been in a gully when there's been climbers/skiers, and that was No.4 on Nevis a few years back. On that occasion, I was descending on foot to climb another route, when a skier didn't see people, but instead saw mobile slalom poles. There were climbers going up and down, and no one was sure where to move to, as the skier didn't really communicate at all and more or less hammered through the obstacles. Not the best.

In reply to Scomuir:

Remember that picture in WH entering No2 Gully? Do you have a link?

In reply to Donald M:
No, don't remember it. I remember pictures of No.3, but not No.2 No easy way of finding it either. Why, what was special about it?

In reply to Frank4short: Right perhaps my point was put a little over simplistically/incendiarily to raise opinion.

I guess what i'm getting at is this attitude that appears on here frequently that the ascending climber is always in the right/automatically has the right of way. That perhaps this attitude isn't necessarily correct. Obviously any situation in which there are climbers & skiers in the same place is always going to require compromise & communication to minimise endangering all parties. I also believe the insinuation some have put across that the skier is out of control is fudging the issue the question is about rights of way not about control in this instance. Obviously wherever possible the skier should avoid routes with climbers on it, however this may not always be the case. If a skier does end up on a route with climbers on it where possible the climbers should move to a safe location out of the skiers way until the skier passes. If this isn't possible the skier should wait until the climbers are in a safe position to do so before continuing. As opposed to the climbers taking the high ground (metaphorically) & continuing on, making the skier wait even if there are possible places for them to safely get out of the way for the skier to pass.

For the record if i was in said situation yes i would usually try & climb the route before descending it, though this isn't always practical. And no i've never played climber slalom.

In reply to Frank4short:

I would go with the first come first served approach! I think if a skier blew it on entry and there was other climbers in the gully the result could be pretty bad ! I don't think anyone has exclusive rights over the other. There are gully's that should only be left to whoever is in it at the time such as Jacobs ladder if you peer in and there are climbers in it then leave it till they finish, narrow gully's would be pretty dangerous if the skier blew it! Good communication is required perhaps Alladins or number 3 might be examples where you would find folks halfway down a simple 'can i come past' would allow folks the chance to get to the side. It would be important to respect them if they so no wait till we pass you though !
I think as far as precedence goes it would go to whomever enters the gully first !

Aye Dan

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:

Say you enter then withdraw, then enter and withdraw again. What happens in that scenario?

In reply to Donald M:

I think the 'rules of the air' should apply. Basically, the faster, and therefore more mobile has the obligation to avoid collision. For example, an aeroplane can manoeuvre out of the way of an airship, however it would be difficult for the opposite.

In this case, it would be the skier who would have the obligation to avoid collision. A climber, for example, may be stuck at a 'crux' (even a grade I gulley could be at someone's limit).

That rule would also imply that a skier would ski within appropriate 'limits' along the lines of the skiing guidelines someone posted above.

In the air, of course, there is a 'standard' way to turn to avoid collision, that wouldn't be possible for a skiier. However, bearing in mind that skiing in a gulley would also klikely generate 'falling hazards, then it would seem that a skier would be obliged to halt and wait for a climber to move to a place of safety before moving on.

In reply to Frank4short:

Doesn't it say somewhere about uphill traffic having right of way?

In reply to Ander:

Ah that is clear now. So you know how you get those wings which you go sking with: youtube.com/watch?v=Ut1kGmOhzWQ&

Say a climber was arriving by airship, and climbing the gully. Who has right of way?

In reply to Donald M:


She loses patience and kicks you out of bed?

Sorry. Sorry :-0

In reply to John Rushby: In skier code uphill skier is the one who should avoid the downhill one. Can that apply in this situation?

In reply to Chris F:

These codes apply on the piste. I think an avoidance of codes and a promotion of common sense is best.

In reply to Frank4short: I've been in both situations, as a climber and a skier and in my opinion each has the right to be there and you just have to co-operate with each other to make the ascent/descent as safe and enjoyable for all parties as possible. This may well involve waiting for a while whilst the climbers finish a narrow section, or whilst you're at a safe point and the skiers ski it. Generally If there are skiers and I'm climbing then I'd find a safe position and wait for them to pass as it is much faster to ski down than climb up.

In reply to Frank4short: I have witnessed braying roped-up jeffries politely cursing skiers on alladins

skiers take priority for sure

In reply to Erik B:I agree how is a skier meant to know there is someone below. Any skier sking of piste in a popular gully should be aware there may be climbers and with that in mind they (the skier) should be experinced enough to take avoiding action.

In reply to Frank4short:

There's the issue of waiting time and inactivity in cold conditions. A skier will be by in moments if a climbing group is able and wiling to give way. A skier might wait hours on the plateau if he gives way to a group not a nice thing to force another mountain user to do when all it might cost is a few mins standing at a stance at the side of the chute.

We've all been infuriated by long waits in freezing conditions for slower parties when everyone's climbing, a little perspective and empathy should mean most climbers should be willing to move aside (where possible, where safe and between pitches) for the moments it'll take a skiier to pass in a gully/couloir shouldn't it?

In reply to Pete Main:

Indeed although in many situations the skier has fewer options perhaps when skiing at any sort of speed to stay afloat on powder, break through a crust or clear an icy section where fall line skiing is a better option than sliding sideways. Somewhat like driving you can't always stop quickly but are still in control and can steer. Skiing is an activity with momentum, climbing usually isn't...

Avoiding action may not mean stopping.

In reply to Frank4short:

What about in urban situations - for example on escalators. Who has the right of way - tube traveller or skier......

youtube.com/watch?v=fFqQOlYE4EE&

In reply to Frank4short:

Anyone whether a skier or climber who climbs or skis above others already climbing is putting everyone below at risk and is therefore selfish arsehole...

End of story

Ron

In reply to Ron Walker:

Hmmm..

In reply to Will1:

Having had most of my climbing injuries due to other people climbing above or across me I feel quite strongly about this!!

In reply to Ron Walker:

So you'd disagree with someone soling passing a roped party then?

I've skied Scottish gullies and as it happened never met anyone. In the event though I'm sure all parties could have a shouted conversation and decide amongst themselves the safest option for everyone. Our mountain landscape is for everyone.

In reply to Ron Walker:

Not to mention the fact that they risk hurting themselves and thus putting MRT's at risk.

In reply to fishy1:

Surely that applies to everyone in the hills!

In reply to Henry Iddon:

This applies particularly to solo or simi-roped climbers passing a roped or unroped party as I have been injured and friends much worse.
As a skier I'd never think of skiing down a gully that others are climbing up. The mountains are are for everyone as long as they respect them and all other mountain users....

In reply to Frank4short: Climbers should have right of way always.........in fact if a skier causes harm to a climber or even kills a climber then he should be done for man slaughter.

In reply to Frank4short:

Skier has priority...

If you climbing a route someone is skiing down...

well, perhaps you should climb something a tad harder...

In reply to lynx3555:

But we don't have manslaughter in Scotland...

In reply to HeMa:

My friend, I'm on my way up to get to the hard stuff. But you, you probably helo'd in, right ?

Y

In reply to Frank4short:


I think it was Norrie Muir who commented that grade I gullies are generally used as descent routes ?

Personally I would always give way to other parties below when descending - as this is simply good etiquette . Doesn't really matter if they are skiers or climbers... For example in the alps you don't drop in on top of other ski parties that might have already started their own descent ? The biggest concern is dislodging debris, rocks or slabs onto anyone below.

Actually have a little story about this - which might start some debate About 3 years ago we went off to ski the flypaper run at Glencoe - which is a marked black run with blind entry due to the convex roll over. Have skied this run literally hundreds of times and at the top we (deliberately) set off a couple of very small slabs, which wasn't a huge surprise. This did however give a winter skills group an interesting wake up call - and they weren't best pleased - though we did politely point out that they were practising belay & snow hole skills directly below a ski piste technically closed for avalanche danger!

In reply to petestack:

So what comes between natural causes and murder in Scotland Pete?

In reply to Yanchik:

Darn, I didn't know they had heli-skiing in Scotland?


And funnily enough... where I mostly ski... well, no helos nor any other form of motor powered transport allowed above treeline (which is like 20m from the shore)...

In reply to JTM:

Culpable homicide.

In reply to lynx3555:

What's the basis for this statement other than you're a climber? Why should climbers always have right of way?

In reply to HeMa:

Sounds cool.

My skiing's probably been relatively recondite. Urals, Carpathians, Appalachians, Coastal Range, Pyrenees, Alps bien sur, Scotland for the most rewarding ambience, sadly not yet Scandiwegia but aiming for some Hardangervidda this April.

I couldn't say what the transport options are in all those places, but I do feel it's taught me to be wary of generalising. Wary in general, actually.

Y

In reply to Frank4short:

No one should have right of way, everyone should be sensible and take appropriate measures and look out for other people.

The notion that some kind of rule can be set up is laughable and applicable to the internet only.

In reply to Donald M:

First sensible answer I've heard!

In reply to Donald M:

I don't see that the concept is laughable - after all they manage to establish right of way between different classes of boats on the water and its fairly clear cut who has right of way in ski resorts.

In reply to GrahamD:

I think it is laughable, utterly pointless. Ski resorts are controlled where people are on the piste and all agree to abide by a set of rules which works pretty well.

You want to provide a code to someone at the top of a gully in a remote location where they can't see the bottom? Eh?

And who is going to go to the effort of drawing up this code for the tiny numbers of incidents when a skier comes a gully someone is coming up?

In reply to Donald M: That was the purpose of my most recent response. As you can see elsewhere in the thread i've stated that i'm in favour of common sense/negotiated settlement. It's when the likes of Lynx come out with arbitrary statements about always taking priority that i question the logic?

In reply to Frank4short:

It's always handy to be reminded of what a fantastic range of ill-founded opinions may be held by those who are at risk of killing you unexpectedly in a mountain environment. The thread's been well worthwhile for that alone.

Y

In reply to Donald M:

I would argue that there are no locations more remote than the middle of the ocean, and yet rights of way are defined there so the idea is not really so 'laughable'.

Whether it would be worthwhile to implement is another question altogether.

In reply to GrahamD:

Because it is simply not required. The idea is simply a joke. Sorry to be so forthright but I think there is a tendency for people to get a warm feeling when they set up codes and methods of practice. The requirement for these is never really thought about.

However, if anyone want to spend their time doing that then be my guest.

In reply to GrahamD: Even though every mariner should be well versed with the International rules for the prevention of collisions at sea it is still common practice to speak to one another via VHF radio stating intentions etc, ie common sense and courtesy. (Savvy rools)

In reply to Frank4short: Me

In reply to Donald M:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one for putting in place legislation where common sense should prevail.

However, I think in a clearly defined situation like this, it would not be difficult to propose a best practice and the idea certainly isn't laughable. I'm sure the first time a climber sues a skiier for damages some smart arse lawyer will be able to establish some de facto best practice.

In reply to Frank4short:

OK then, what about walking across glaciated ski pistes, roped up?

In reply to Joak:

Of course, but the rules are still there. In the absence of communication its still obvious most of the time who gives way to whom.

In reply to GrahamD:

Totally disagree and especially since you are now talking about legislation in addition to codes and guidance.

However, let me be the first to wish you the best on your crusade.

In reply to JTM:

Not a situation often found in the Highlands but if did, don't be surprised if you get knocked over !

Dan

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:

Its pretty annoying skiing on Cairngorm and Aoanch Mor and finding groups walking down the middle of the piste, its easy enough to walk to the side !

Aye Dan

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:

Not in the highlands, no, but in Saas, Zermatt etc in the summer ski areas there are lots of BIG holes that skiers don't notice, but when walking they are more than obvious... When I cross them with clients we wait - then run. You can just imagine the carnage if a member of the Swiss national team got garrotted at high speed by a group of folk in glacier mode... Here I'm sure the skiers have priority, rightly or wrongly!

In reply to JTM:


Buckfast

In reply to Frank4short: Climbers were climbing in gullies long before skiers....any way why not just ski down a grade 1 open slope, why ski down a gully where unseen climbers may be climbing, unaware that some speed freak might crash into them or even send tonnes of snow down on them.
It's cool as long as you can be sure the gully is empty of people...totally irrisponsable if you cant guarantee climbers are present.

In reply to lynx3555:

Simply because skiing down an open slope can be boring, dangerous or a long way off... Where as a gully can offer a much more interesting line...


It's a good thing that where I ski, people hardly ever are walking (or climbing) up the gullies during ski season... and if they are, well they have skis on their rucksack and now the score (1st come, 1st served... you got to the top faster, you have right of way... ).

In reply to HeMa:

Surely it's who looks the coolest and most Xtreme. Dude. Which obviously will be climbers doing a grade 1 gully - the chicks really dig Dachstien underpants.

In reply to GrahamD:
Slightly different issue regarding line of sight?

In reply to lynx3555:
What about when climbers enter a gully that a skier has started on? Who's irresponsible then? What about when a skier is below some climbers, and some idiot with crampons and axes flailing around comes hurtling down the slope out of control because they fell over and crashes into the skier who was in perfect control?

I know this has been discussed on another thread, but surely climbers shouldn't be descending a gully when anyone is climbing it? Should we have stop/go signs at the top of No. 4 on Ben Nevis?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with skiing gullies - skiers have as much right to be there as climbers, but common sense dictates that the skiers probably shouldn't knowingly enter a gully when they are going to place the anyone below in danger by sending snow down, which can be innevitable. However, if a situation arises when a skier meets climbers in a gully, then a quick chat should sort out what is best, depending upon the terrain and position of the climbers/skiers. It's not in anyones interest to cause an accident.

In reply to Scomuir:

Quite right, I feel that Geoffrey and Jeffrey may be going to ski some gullies soon....

In reply to Donald M:
Look forward to it.

On a ski trip in April, a lot of the hills nearby had been named during Cambridge Uni geology trips in the 60's. There was a hill nearby to our camp called "Jeffreystoppen". Had to be done.

In reply to Frank4short: Right, now let me get this right i,m climbing up a grade I/II and suddenly a guy on ski,s comes hurteling down, and the question is who has right of way, well that,s a no brainer i have right of way, reason, simple i have 2 big f*ck-off ice axes that are very sharp and if i manage to get my hands on the bastard i,m going to tear him a new ring piece for being a complete arse and sking down a climbing route where, that,s right folks there might be climbers, i hope this in someway answers your question,Andy.

In reply to DIRK DIDLER:

Thank god. A bit of diplomacy at last.

In reply to DIRK DIDLER:
You think that it is OK to threaten people just because you own a pair of ice axes? Interesting. I wonder if you actually would attack someone, or you are just spouting sh*te because it is an internet forum.

Anyway, you could be in for an interesting surprise should you decide to behave like a moron as you are describing above, as most skiers in that position will also have, guess what, at least one ice axe, and will be a lot more mobile than you.

In reply to DIRK DIDLER:

Grade I is not climbing.

In reply to DIRK DIDLER:


Nive troll attempt... I'll give ya a T1 (from T1 to T10, T1 being utter shite).

Besides, what on earth are you climbiing on a skiing run??? After all, most snow grade I's are just that... heck, I would say that most pure snow/neve grade II's are also ski runs, that some idiots try to climb.

In reply to HeMa:

Too right, I never climb anything less than a X in poor nick me, cos I'm that good...

In reply to HeMa:
Besides, what on earth are you climbiing on a skiing run???

Not climbing routes that are 'skiing runs' would significantly reduce my ticklist of 'alpine north faces doable by punters'!

In reply to Donald M:

Why do you think I'm on a crusade here ? I'm just pointing out why I don't think the concept of guidelines is "totally laughable". Guidelines may or may not be appropriate in this instance but the concept is not "totally laughable"

In reply to GrahamD:

I think the mountains are a place people can be free from guidelines legislation, HSE and all the other things the freedom of the mountains gives us a break from. In the busy spots people go by manners and unwritten ethics !!

Aye Dan

In reply to DIRK DIDLER: Couldn't have put it better myself....cheers

In reply to Donald M: So why is it a Grade 1 winter climb then and discribed as a ski descent in the guide book?

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan:


Not really. Duty of care is pretty unavoidable anywhere (which is all H&S really boils down to). If someone is killed or injured because of the irresponsible actions of someone else, that person is liable irrespective of whether we chose to write down the guidelines. And guidelines are just that, they are not legislation.

In reply to Donald M:


Looking forward to it already Donald..

In reply to DIRK DIDLER:

Winter skills groups spotted digging snow holes and bucket seats at foot of the flypaper & ballies gully (Glencoe ski area) again today...

However to be honest this 'priority' thing isn't a huge issue.
Especially since skiers only want to ski grades I's when they are soft!

When ever we have met climbers when out skiing in Scotland there is usually some good natured craic (unlike some of the miserable trolls who seem to frequent this forum!)

In reply to Haggis Trap:

I'd just like to point out that my group filled their holes in again when we moved off. We were clearly visible from above and outside the maintained area of the mountain; ie in open country.

Priority? Not sure but the habit of some skiers of going as close as possible to walkers or skills group is distasteful and potentially dangerous; really wish they wouldnt.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Nice one Jamie - Much appreciated, thanks.

I was playing devil advocate after the previous 'climbers always take priority' chat. At the end of the day its all about a little awareness and respect for other hill users. Doesn't matter if people are climbing or skiing - as a general rule you try to avoid dropping in on other parties that may be below yours.

Personally I have got no problem with groups using East Ridge at Glencoe for winter skills training. Though Flypaper and Baillies gully are both well known Glencoe ski runs - so it not unreasonable to expect that skiers, or even worse snowboarders, might be descending

In reply to Frank4short:

similiar to the law of the sea, the object that is most manuverable must give right of way to that which is less manuverable.

so skier gets it as far s i can see as their trajectory allready is downward thus making them less manuverable

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Aye Jamie I agree cutting up groups is bad form. But anywhere "in bounds" and in the Coe that goes from the Etive glades to the E Ridge in my view is ski country. Overall I think most local providers including our lot show respect. The Coe ski area has a good buzz and most folk are mountaineers and skiers hence why you see a lot of good off piste skiers there unlike the posey skiers at other ski areas. Pretty tolerant and a good vibe. When working up the hill I skied the Haggis trap(the place not the forum poster!) first run one day and saw a probe sticking out on the drop in. It was marking the entrance to a snow hole with 5 folk inside. Nice lads who but whothought they were on Creise. ooOps!

In reply to Frank4short:

I agree with those who say it's got to be the faster and more manouverable who gives way to the slower ie the skier. Also as has been said the normal Alpine courtesy is that the ascending climber has priority, as with vehicles on a road, particularly in the case of a heavy ascending lorry which might not be able to start again if forced to stop. The general rule at sea is that steam (motor) gives way to sail because old sailing ships where slow. However in the case of a sailing yacht vs tanker only a stupid helmsman would press his advantage because he can turn on a sixpence compared to the several miles required by a super tanker - so we are back to the question of quick manouvreability.

Both parties have a responsibility to avoid a collision in every event, so a climber pressing on into the path of a skier with limited turning space would be a fool even if he/she had the "right of way"! If the skier doesn't wait for you it's better to stay still and let the skier avoid you. A skier should be constantly looking ahead and working out their route round stationary objects which can then be avoided.

I agree the rope gives an added dimension for the skier to avoid, so back to where I started, I think the skier should stop and wait for the climbers to move out of their way and this should not be at the expense of the climbers being put under pressure to move any faster than they feel safe at.

In reply to Young Fox:

If I'm using the ski area (which is fantastically quick of access and holds snow reliably), I try to do my digging underneath little bluffs and away from the main gully lines. However skiers never cease to amaze me with what they can get down!

In reply to Frank4short:

When I'm skiing skiers have priority.
When I'm climbing climbers have priority.

Simples!

In reply to Donald M:


Absolutely. engage in your activity with respect, care & consideration for others. The best course of action will depend on the particular circumstances, and hopefully all parties will behave sensibly.

All parties should expect to encounter others, and take suitable precautions; skiers controlling their speed so they can stop safely within visible range, for instance, climbers watching for skiers when coming over brows, etc.

Skiers and climbers pose mutual threats to each other, so let's all try to look after ourselves and others.

In reply to Frank4short:I skied past some climbers yesterday on the wide gully off the east face of Helvellyn, they seemed happy enough, I could see the run out. I too had been waiting years for it to be in condition. If we have respect for each other then we can all get on.

In reply to lee johnson:

I think you are right. What actually happens in the real world and what is ranted about on here are often polar opposites

In reply to Frank4short:

Although you would be worried if climbing in a gully and my housemate dropped in ! A seamless entry into the treeline today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F6vSOyjo1A&feature=player_embedded

Dan

In reply to Frank4short:

A draft version of the Gully Code of Conduct has now been suggested. See here for details: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6095505

In reply to DIRK DIDLER: The skier has possesion of the higher ground, you only have 2 rounds (at best) of artillary that are fairly essentional for you to keep hold of to maintain your stability. Skier has speed, surprise, manouverbility and 2 lances with a longer reach than you. Gravity and terrain are on the side of the skier.

Skier wins.

Do not fire until fired upon.

In reply to Jim Walton:

A well aimed mars bar will give the edge any day.

In reply to Milesy: gooched by a Mars Bar, what a way to go

In reply to Jim Walton: To be honest i can't see the average scottish winter climber voluntarily parting with a mars bar easily under normal circumstances.

In reply to Frank4short: Be a miracle if it made it past the walk-in.

Cheers,

FT.

In reply to Frank4short: refering to a previous thread on Winter Hill food, I may well have underestimated the available artillary

Malt Loat
Toblerone
Double Decker
Mars Bar
Marathon (I flatly refuse to use the new name)
the list goes on...

But still think the skier has it

In reply to Frank4short: or just grow a set and get out of the gullies?

In reply to esoteric: Funny i get the impression that's directed at me. Yet surely as being one of the skiing advocates that's wrong. Steep gulleys on skis are hard & do require a pair. In this instance it should be more accurately directed at the climbers.