UKC

Please get a map or reference book and spell these words correctly.
It's annoying enough when you English can't make the effort to pronounce them correctly.
Diolch.

In reply to Dewi:

Why? You're part of Great Britain, learn to speak (and write) in English!

In reply to Anonymous: Open your eyes mate-Britain is no longer Great or British.

In reply to Dewi: Its not quite as simple as not bothering to pronounce them properly, if you haven't been brought up listening to the words, you won't be able to pronounce them when your an adult. A lot of the sounds in the Welsh language just aren't in the English language ergo we can't form the words correctly. I wish I could, because i think the Welsh language is a very beatiful language but unfortunately, for the majority of people its not going to happen.

In reply to Dewi:

Da iawn...you tell him mate !

In reply to Dewi: Dont be so bloody pedantic, its as tricky for the lay-person to get to grips with welsh as any other language, and people do make the effort, we're not all evil colonists you know.
I smell a troll anyway...

In reply to The Flying Giraffe:
Very sorry TFG.Got carried away with my emotions on a Friday night in with Stella and friends.Glad you've noticed the colonists are evil of origin-can't get rid of them-they're here to stay.Gone are our homes, jobs , women, heritage and spellings.
How many counties were there in England?
Just add Wales to the list now.

In reply to Dewi: We're all evil mo fos, us English types. Just using Wales for its many crags you see, you can keep most of your females tho.
Tell you what is pretty crap IMO; Why is the highest mountain in Wales the only one without a welsh name? That needs changing.

In reply to The Flying Giraffe:

Think you'll find it does actually have a Welsh name.

In reply to innes: Yes I know it does, but no one uses it do they boyo.

In reply to Dewi: we support your culture and economy - we will pronounce it how we damn well like.

In reply to ruairi:

Oooh, he's got a drink in him, now he wants a fight...

In reply to ruairi: Oooohhh, handbags...

In reply to DougG: just for a change

In reply to DougG: i did - but the lightweights tottered off to bed. grr.... who else can i wind up then....

In reply to cora: sorry boss <shuffles off to sweep the floor and be a menial servant>

In reply to The Flying Giraffe: I know some people have some strong feelings about Wales, but you've just gotta love that nationalist graffiti that adorns many rocks and buildings.
Such classics as;
COLONISTS OUT!(the most common)
ENGLANDS THAT WAY>
F*CK OFF WINSOR VAMPIRES!(a favorite of mine)
WALES IS LIKE TIBET(in welsh)
THIS IS NOT ENGLAND(no shit?)

Genius.

In reply to The Flying Giraffe: i can fully agree with the "wales is like tibet comment"

full of yaks

In reply to ruairi:

What about the one at the petrol station:

"FREE WALES" (to which s/one had added) "WITH EVERY 5 GALLONS"

In reply to DougG: yeah - they are bloody cheapskates! gereenpeace do it for nowt

In reply to Anonymous: : Oih! plonker! When we are on the subject of britain and spelling, its not really Great Britain, which is a contraction, its Greater Britain, meaning the whole of it. And another thing; what language did the british speak before these germans arrived? WELSH.

In reply to SeumasF:

Anyway, no Jonny Wilkinson for a whole season-you can pronounce your words any way you want now.

In reply to Dewi:

yuc ee dar... Hows that ?

In reply to bourney:
Good effort.
Iechyd da would be better.

In reply to Dewi:
What do you call a welshman with a piece of wood stuck up his arse?










































A Taffy apple!

Boom boom

The Ent

In reply to Dewi: Why?

bitter little man?

How many times have people spelt Aonach Eagach ridge wrongly, or the buichaille, and Id be amazed if i spelt them correctly this time,

Yet you do not see Gfoz or Norrie jumping down peoples throat for incorrectly spelling scottish place names.

Why not be proud that people speak of your country, or proud you have some of the most beautiful countryside in the UK?

In fact theres enough english mountain names that are misspelt to, Id guess Helvelyn, Scafell and others have been misspelt a few times,

You just seem bitter, pity.

In reply to Iain Ridgway: OK that was a bit harsh, I see you apologised later, sorry mate.

Its just I lived in Wales for five years (pontllyfini and bangor, worked at Dinas Dinlle), so got a bt fed up with the anti englishness, however that was rare, its just its loud so can over shadow the great area and great people in that area.

Cheers

In reply to Dewi:

This is bullshit. Welsh is a phonetic language which only got written down with the arrival of the roman alphabet.

When the Welsh start spelling Wrecsam correctly as Wrexham, as derived from Roman "Wrex" and Anglosaxon "Ham", then we may take you more seriously

In reply to kevin stephens:

The term "REX" meaning King in Roman actually derives from older Celtic languages such as Welsh and Gaulish. Check Welsh for King is bRENin and other Celtic languages RIX (Irish and Scottish Gaelic I think).

In reply to kevin stephens:

Also, it is prudent to suggest that Welsh was only a phonetic language, what is closer to the truth is that most Celtic people were non-literate as opposed to illiterate. The fact that there are few surviving examples of early written sources certainly doesn't conclude that messages were not relayed by writing.

Basically, you are talking out of your fanny and should get your facts straight.

In reply to Dewi: Why would anyone want to go to Wales? The country is ugly, the weather is cr@p and the natives are distinctly unfriendly. When was the last time you saw a "Bed & breakfast" or "Bar meals" sign in Welsh? Poor old King Offa; he simply didn't make his dyke big enough.

In reply to Dewi:

ey up ! ive been trying to translate 'lechyd' on the web and I cant find a welsh - english internet dictionary. Is there one or am i a half wit ?

In reply to bourney:

ahh ! got it - there are loads !

lechyd da!

In reply to The Flying Giraffe:

I hate it when they try and irrigate your colon out! Gets right up my arse

In reply to Anonymous:

I seem to remember that Stan Roe inherited a whole library of Welsh books when he moved into his cottage, some of fair antiquity so Welsh has been written for a long time.

In reply to sutty:
Just take a look at 6th Century welsh poems written about battles in North England-Aneurin/Taliesin/Gododdin.

In reply to SeumasF:
Boyyo...Wales didn't exist before the Germans arrived and in fact, to be correct, the "British Isles" were colonised by Vikings, Angles, Saxons and everybody else that wanted a piece of land. Most Welshmen are probably descendents of the original tribes living in modern day England anyway - so whats the problem?

Learn the history before you open the gob - it prevents crap coming out!

In reply to SeumasF:

Actually the Keltoi who gave their name to the Celtic peoples were lake people from Hallstadt?, Austria,(i.e. v nearly Germans) who conquered or dominated the preceltic people of western europe,and founded a lake village near Glastonbury 'cause thats what they were used to. So the welsh already spoke a foreign tongue before the saxons conquered them. No one knows I think what they originally spoke.

The Hallstad Celts invaded or dominated in two waves and the celtic languages of Cornwall,Wales,Scotland and Ireland are all different and in two groups.


As for the earlier comment about spulling of names, I can bearly manage it in the mane language of the UK,and think in fact it is abritary and has changed over the centuries. If it can be understood its good enough.

Personally you can keep cold wet dark north Wales, there are warmer (or snowier) friendlier celtic climbing areas

In reply to Ian Roberts:
Dear Germanic man
Try this for size.I'm not refering to Welsh men or women but the language that was spoken back in the 6th century is very similar to what I speak:
http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/poetry/aneirin1.htm

In reply to Dewi:
I'm not sure you'll like this? - BUT - I've just read this WHOLE thread in the accent that Matt Lucas(?) uses in his sketch "But Myfanwy - I'm the only gay in the village!" CLASS!! (Think it's called "Litte Britain" - Says it ALL really!) Again in a GAY voice!!!
P
P.S. Wales is great! Spent some epic times in, forgive spelling! Betsy Y Coed & Capel Curig! OH and many long days and nights on the Brecons!!

In reply to Dewi:

Silly little welshman needs to get a life.
What do you call 5000 welsh at the bottum of the sea?


A GOOD START

Lighten up Taf!

In reply to Padraig:

So did I. It makes the thread far more interesting.

In reply to Dewi:

Welsh to me is like French. I cant read it or say it and I dont pretend that I can.

I dont understand why the Welsh get all pissed off when we cant say the words!! Its not about an effort...I try to pronounce the word as best I can and I dont see why that should be seen as not making an effort!!!

In reply to Dewi:

The great Celtic nations of western europe, in descending order:

Scots (evidently)
Irish
Breton
Cumbrian
Cornish
Manx
bloody Welsh

In reply to GFoz:

The North Welsh and South Welsh are different people. Read the Mabinigion etc. This caused great friction when starving hill farmers from the north colonised the iron and coal rich south during the industrial revolution.

In reply to Anonymous:

>The term "REX" meaning King in Roman actually derives from older Celtic languages such as Welsh and Gaulish. Check Welsh for King is bRENin and other Celtic languages RIX (Irish and Scottish Gaelic I think).

Can that be right? Weren't the Romans using 'rex' before they had an empire?

(Maybe not, actually. I suppose it only referred to foreign leaders, and how would they have met those before they had an empire.)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
Didn't the Romans have kings before they deposed them to make a republic, long before the empire? A celtic influence isn't completely implausible, I suppose, since there were lots of Celts in northern Italy a few centuries BC. They were famously only prevented from conquering Rome by some geese.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Gaelic for king is 'Righ', pron. 'Ree'

In fact I wonder if Tiree is 'Tigh Righ' or 'Kings House'. Anyone know??

G

In reply to Richard J:

I guess they did – Romulus, for example. But I don’t think they called them ‘reges’. I could be wrong, of course, but I think it might not have been used until later – I think anonymous could be right.

I used to know a classicist called Richard Jones – you can’t be he, surely?!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Livy refers to them as Reges. But he was writing a little bit later, (50BC or so?)


Same name, different person I think; I'm just a physicist with a classical education and a retentive memory.

In reply to Richard J:

Yes, so he does. But you may be right of course, time may not be so critical because there were Celts around in Northern Italy a long time before the empire.

A physicist with a classical education! Now that is a bit of a throwback....

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Southern european languages latin/italian/spanish and the north european language groups (including scandinavian/german and celtic) are all closely related, with french and english the most intermarried, and are all indo-european languages.

Only hungarian/finnish/estonian and basque are different in origin.


There is a lot of convergence in all modern languages as the name for new imports is taken from another tongue.


Hence the word for bridge and harbour in modern welsh are of course latin, as the romans were great civil engineers if only to support their armies. As for whether Ard Righ (the high king)is exactly the same as Alt Regis, I don't know.

In reply to Dewi:

Have I got time to quickly learn Welsh while I am waiting for Aber Falls to come into condition?

In reply to All - especially the wannabe historians:

Listen Boys and Girls, sack all these hot air history lessons. At the end of the day it's about respecting people's culture - which is a hotch potch of old, new, English, Viking, Celt, Roman, whatever. Our culture today is based as much - if not more so - on Pepsi Max/Barbie/ActionMan adverts as it is on how our ancestors might have lived in round houses built of shit.

You'll probably find that the resentment towards the English is based upon comparatively recent history rather than ancient history. Such as the attempt to exterminate the Welsh Language; the "Welsh not" etc, relatively not so long ago.

Whatever you do, don't catch yourselves making judgments on the minority, let's leave the racist babble for those whom foresight is a foreign concept and hindsight seems endless.

Gruff

P.S. You Scots get on my tits, you bunch of bloody sell outs, sorry I mean Bravehearts!

In reply to Gruff:

...for the Welsh, they seem best at it

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Oh dear.

Iain, I think you'll find that Helvellyn and Scafell have very little to do with the English language. Helvellyn (though curiously with a 'llyn') derived from Norse and Scafell, originally spelt and correctly pronounced Scawfell (but later itself mispelt by HM Survey), most certainly has the same origin.

I think that old Norse should be brought back to the Lakes and most of the North of England, all their road signs being ........

In reply to Chaos:. Helvellyn (though curiously with a 'llyn') derived from Norse.


Are you sure? Hel sounds norse but llyn is surely celtic. The Cumbrians were the same people as the Cambrians (or Cymri), but largely migrated south to consolidate with the Welsh in the dark ages. (it is believed that plague or black death may have halved population of GB) The Norse thus migrated into a half empty land, but could well have taken the name of many features from residual celtic populations even if sometimes in conflict with them.

Sorry to all you non academics but as a man of angle/celt/norse origin I find it fascinating what my various ancesters got up to.

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:
'vellyn' is also 'melyn' which is yellow.
Anything yellow up there apart from the snow?

In reply to Dewi: RE: Welchers.

In reply to OldManOfTheHills: Wouldn't argue that the Celtic boarder once stretched from York to the Severn with everything to the NW being Celtic apart from that as was maybe being Pictish. The Migration of the Cymri was before my time, but there is nothing to suggest Viking re-settlement (before raids ca 800-1000AD) and subsequent cultivation of much of the coastal and river farming lands was anything but peaceful or at least unresisted, so why migrate.
I like the idea that Helvellyn could have been a combination of both Norse and Cymri behaps fjellen-llyn or 'little hill tarn'.
But perhaps on another thread .....

In reply to Chaos:

Migration of the Cymri from the lakes to n wales believed to have been to consolidate their strength against brutal irish raiders and pirates, who were a different branch of celts and savagely harried n welsh coast. Indeed most raids on churches in ireland etc were by rival celtic clans not norse. (the scots being particularly fierce irish tribe who colonised strathclyde etc)Though norse also came as slave raiders, norse and celts intermarried in dublin and elsewhere and indeed the irish king Brian Boru was supported by voluntary viking 'peacekeeping force' against a local norse rebellion at the battle of Clontaff. Much norse settlement was relatively peaceful or even welcomed. Indeed the only recorded attempt at genocide in the dark ages (rather than domination) was the saxon attempt at extermination of long established norse settlers in yorkshire.

And yes we still combine lanuages in names "River Avon" being my favorite, when avon is of course river in celtic.

In reply to Big Steve: Yet Welsh is easier to spell and pronounce than English.

I miss the easy to pronounce hill names in Wales.

In reply to Chaos: Cumbria - Cymru....

Was once in Strathclyde a Welsh speaking kingdom. Also heavily colonised in places by Norwegians.. A great mix.

And then there is the Sheep/Bently Beetham route counting numbers - more than a touch of the old language in there.

In reply to Gruff:

Hear hear!

really, arguing about historical differences are crap when there's no single person on this isle with a complete bloodline from a single culture to be had.

In reply to Al Urker:

I know one or two people who could trace lines back to single cell cultures.

In reply to Al Urker:

You miss the point I think, as racially we have always been a mix. Its about cultural allegiances and heritage not pure bloodlines.

Culturally we have sometimes pretended to greater purity even if using the language of invaders, rather than old languages of the base population.

Celebrating differences is perhaps a better way of bringing community, and the heroes or sucesses of one culture may be admired by another.

In reply to OldManOfTheHills:

Not really.

I grew up in North Wales (4-19) and so I am quite aware of the point.

To be honest, I learnt Welsh from an early age, but when adults try, Welsh people for some reason always try to put them off.

There's the old chestnut of once one word is learnt, then the associated Welsh people start trying to confuse the learer by going off into full sentences, and laughing as the frustration kicks in. I've seen it happen.

It doesn't do much for the desire to learn Welsh.

As for cultural differences, I think you'll find that country folk are the same even here in Oxfordshire (scarily so really!) there's the whole village mentality part of it that needs to be overcome.

As for heroes and sucesses, when growing up, I remember learning at length about any Welsh hero or success, no matter how trivial it was, simply because it was Welsh. There was no emphasis on the importance of developments if it was not due to the Welsh.

For instance (And this is but one), the ring of steel put in place by Edward 1st, was seen as a success on the part of the Welsh because it showed how scared Edward 1st was of the Welsh people.

I grew up with a very narrow (and one sided)education in historical matters. Meanwhile, my wife knows allsort that happened elsewhere because in her history lessons, they weren't so paranoid about finding something interesting to report about themselves.

Now there have been interesting developments by the Welsh, but they could have looked outside of their village.

In reply to Al Urker:
What a stomping good thread!

Al, what good sense you speak.

I've got no end of opinions on this, but last time I got involved with the topic, Aiian Thompson cut me down with 346 replies, posted in immediate succession, to each and every word I'd said. But I'll waffle on a bit, just to bait him:.......

I'm always amused by "Betsy Co-Ed" (a.k.a. Betws-Y-Coed) but, Dewi, it's not the Saeson's fault: we Welsh just love alienating them, and as someone has already pointed out, a lot of Welsh vowel sounds are simply unavailable in the English phonetic range. (contrary to what they think, the 'ch' and 'll' sound alien but can always be mimiced, it's the dipthongs like 'ew', 'oe' etc, that always sopund comically english)

In reply to Just Another Dave:

For the record, I find myself correcting people on Welsh placenames, as for some reason I find it terribly embarrasing to hear horrendous mispronunciations done by English people.

Worse than hearing a foreigner mispronouncing English placenames - unless it's an American of course, I've just got no tolerance there.


Classic ones I remember are

Bilchaow for Bylchau
Landudno - always a classic
Phooeckli - Pwllheli
Clangolen - Llangollen
Of course the delectable Besty Co-ed
etc, and the list goes on...

In reply to Al Urker:

..and on
Beadle-Gird: Beddgelert
Minty-Ho: Mynytho

etc.

In reply to Dewi:
Agreed, an excellent thread. A fine blend of prejudice, carefully considered responses and, of course some complete nonsense as well.
Personally I think a little tolerance goes a long way and we should accept peoples' odd pronunciations if there's no malign intent. I'm from Streatham in S. London and you should hear how that's pronounced by folk from the North.
As my Mum used to say, 'It wouldn't do for us all to be the same'.


What's wrong with 'Betsy Coed' anyway. All my mates pronounce it that way so it must be OK.

In reply to Just Another Dave:
Frosty arsehole -Ffostrasol
Machine lathe - Machynlleth
Aber wrist watch - Aberystwyth
Drenewydd - Newtown!!!!
Wyddfa - Snowdon !!!!!!!!!!
Cymru - Wales !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bit of irony here at the end.Sori-sorry!!

Does someone want to define culture for me please? I'm a little confused. Is culture really based on ancient history? Or is it something which is developed by society as it adapts to given environments?

I believe it is the latter, I'm as much of a sucker for popular culture as the next man. I certainly spend more time watching TV and drinking Pepsi than I do seeking revenge from those pesky AngloSaxons!

g

In reply to Cymro:

An Australian girl I used to know prounounced this as "my c*** lips"

In reply to Cymro:> Cymru - Wales !> Bit of irony here at the end.

yeah how true, particularly as i believe 'welsh' means foreigner in saxon, thus wales is the land of foreigners to their invaders.

however i always though cymri is the same word root as cummunity, thus the word for the people of this mountain land is 'the people' as if there were no others, which would be equally insular.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Oi! Wrecsam is derived from Wraig Sam, meaning Sam's wife. When you can be bothered to do some proper flaming research then we may take you more seriously.

In reply to Chaos:

And get rid of that bloody "ghyll", put it back to "gill".

Bob

In reply to Al Urker:

Roody-doo for Rhyd Ddu
Coynant for Ceunant (Kaynant is as close as I can phonetically write it)

Going the other way, whilst living in Wales I heard a TV presenter talk about the Al-n-wick Sevens rugby tournament.

I grew up in the Lakes near a village called Cartmel which is derived from Caer Moel. Literally "walled or fortified mound". The Lakes also has its fair share of easily mis-pronounced names.

Bob

In reply to Dewi: ::Some posters have asked why there is so much fuss about Welsh names and not very much about Gaelic (Gaidhlig).
:
Reason 1: Lack of native speakers.
Gaelic in Scotland, just when it is receiving political support for the first time, is at a level close to extinction. Why? Lets turn to songwriter Dougie MacLean: 'lost our language to greed and gain, all washed away by a southern rain'.
:
Reason 2: Sex.
I wondered for a long time what was going on between the english and the welsh. Many thanks to the ladies of Llanidloes for enlightening me. You see, it turns out that welsh women are really quite something and put the twenty-odd million women of a neighbouring jurisdiction completely in the shade. This is the cause of much subterfuge and resentment in the relations between Wales and England. The language issue is simply an excuse for welshmen and englishmen to spar with each other like rutting animals. (Seventy-odd posts! Rutting!)
:
Reason 3: Saxon (Sassanach) arrogance.
These Germans have been on our island for over a thousand years and haven't yet learnt the language(s). So inept and confused are they that they don't even understand their own German origins.
:
:
Notes:
Its not really 'great' Britain. This is a contraction of Greater Britain, meaning the whole of Britain.


(..now where did I put that body armour?....)

In reply to Dewi:

Oh shut up!

In reply to Dewi: Dewi - can you give me phonetically written pronunciations for the following English names?
Mainwaring..............................
Featherstonehough.................................
Cholmonderley.......................................

There are lots of tribes on these beautiful green islands of Pridain, the latest probably being the Albanians who in about 10 years will have added to our unique and varied culture. Sadly there are those who mix up pride in their tribe with racism. Cymraig is a beautiful poetic tongue which can express things not easily said in english - hiraeth for instance. However like it or not english is probably the major language of commerce in our world and is thus likely to remain the most used tongue. The "Colonist Out" type graffitti slashed with ignorent hatred across beautiful crags and dry stone walls does no honour to the cymric cause. Maybe the real threat to our shared toungues is Microsoft dumbed down American Imperialist English shite.

In reply to David Hooper:

Mannering
Fanshaw
Chumley

In reply to Mooncat: Shit youve spoilt it now - come on Dewi be honest could u have got it

In reply to David Hooper:

sorry

In reply to Dewi: S'okay Mooncat - just clicked your profile and see u r from L'pool also (also is an americanism and I hate the americanisation of our tongue)) As a cockney who has been doing his VSO here in the developing world helping the poor unfortunate locals ;O) .Ive had my share of "cockney tw*t" comments from scousers (although far outweighed by the generosity and friendship Ive had from the majority) and so have developed a killer repetoire of anti scouse jokes Why is a scouser like a mushroom................?
But back to Dewi - I have worked part time in Eryri for the past 20 years introducing clients to this beautiful and magical place and hopefully putting something into the local economy. I am now renovating a badly f*cked old hovel in the hills and want to make Eryri my first home . I will certainly learn Welsh but my dad was a didiki/cockney - fairground folk and thats my culture . I aint and never will be Welsh. But I reckon I can contribute to and enrich culturally ( not dilute) the community I am moving to. So am I a colonist taking on a wreck of a house, bringing money, skills, enthusiasm and friendship to a community....or wot?

In reply to David Hooper:

Nah, don't think it's like that, lived in Llanberis myself for a while, at first the locals were a bit funny with me, but after a while when my face got known, and they know you're not just day tripping it was pretty good. Of course you get the odd tw*t, but isn't it the same everywhere?

Best of luck.

In reply to Dewi: Cheers Mooncat 'beris has been a 2nd home for years. But we still havent heard from Dewi bach who started the thread - I really would like his opinion on thew last couple of posts By the way is Dewi the same as Daffyd/David which is Daoud in arabic and means beloved (just linguistically showing off ....cariad)

In reply to Dewi:

Oh...but...us english bastards cant be arsed !

In reply to Mooncat: The odd tw*ts name wasn't Stewart with a nasty permed mullet and tattoos was it ?

In reply to David Hooper:

Lard was the worst one, a genuinely nasty piece of work, is he still around?

Seem to remember him having a small "accident" after he nearly killed somebody about 1993.

In reply to Dewi: name rings a bell was he the one that tried to run the climber over on Snowdon St? Also do u remember Stevie H breaking some bullying bastards leg outside the pub and becoming a local hero ....oh happy days

In reply to David Hooper:

That's right, it was Ben Pritchard, just by Paul Pritchards house.

In reply to Dewi: Well dewi doesnt seem to be coming back to continue this fine intellectual debate wiv da colonists so Im off to bye byes but will check this thread 2 morrow
noswyth da boyo's

In reply to Mooncat: Do u know a certain Welsh person whose name begins with G who used to climb with Paul P. He confessed to me once when pissed and stoned that he was in the Sons of Glyndywr...heee heee heee

In reply to Dewi:
Most of the posters on here can't even spell or use proper punctuation in English, never mind getting to grips with another British language!!

In reply to Phil the Taff:

err, right!

To quote my place-names book:

" The name exists in old documents in many forms- Wristleham, Wrettesham, Wrechcessam, Wryxham to name but a few-but no mention of the town by any name before the twelfth century. There is no mention of Wrexham in the Domesday book of 1086, although Gresford and Rossett which are very close to Wrexham are mentioned."

The first mention of the place at all is in "The Pipe Roll" of 116-something, as "Wristleham Castle", which tends to indicate that it was then a new Norman fortification, although given a Saxon name. It certainly doesn't seem to be old enough for the name to have a Celtic origin.

In reply to David Hooper:

Oh, The sons of glyndwr - what a brave lot they were!

Matches and petrol, in the middle of the night on empty houses. Mind you, the Welsh have a history of cowardice, as in raiding toll houses dressed up in womens outfits as not to get shot. In fact Rourke's drift is probably the saving grace for Welsh bravery.

You could have found all their names down a few local pubs where I lived. Surprised me that the police didn't really. In fact Llangernyw used to be quite a hotbed for their activity, I'm glad I lived in Gwytherin, which had proper people in it.

They've gone a bit quiet now haven't they? perhaps they've grown up.

In reply to Rob Naylor:

Furthermore, wasn't Wrexham until fairly recently just the English side of the border?

In reply to Al Urker:

One of their brightest moments was in about 1980 when they set fire to a holday cottage that regretably turned out to belong to the President of the Welsh Language Society.

They also tried to burn down my club hut (Welsh) at the time - a weedy device with a candle and petrol that was fortunately unable to cope with standard hut drafts.

In reply to Dewi: ::you are rutting again a**holes.

Remember Winter Climbing: the subject of the forum?

Any suggestions for language training for mountaineers: gaelic, welsh, french, romanisch, german, slovensk, ....

In reply to Al Urker:

Now I'm not taking the pi$$ here, but how *should* these names be pronounced. As someone who's had very little exposure to the language I wouldn't know how to pronounce them properly (Although I'd have a damn good try!!)

I know in other countries native speakers have really appreciated me having a go at speaking their language (I HATE going on holiday without speaking at least a bit of the language!) and we've usually had a laugh at how shocking my pronunciation is, but surely having a go is better than just not trying?
One of my colleagues was speaking to a lovely Welsh lady last week and needed to clarify some data with her - this happened to be an address in Wales and he had a go - she laughed at him and then said really he didn't do too badly. Surely THAT'S the attitude to have?!

In reply to TN:

Spot on m8.
you've hit the nail on the head!

Try this.Its a railway station on Angelsy:

llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

In reply to Dewi:
Funny.. I thought this thread started on spelling, not pronunciation.
There is little excuse for not spelling place names correctly if you have access to a map or other written source. (Even a road map in many cases)
On the other hand, nobody could reasonably expect a non-native speaker to guess at pronunciation and get the right answer. "Having a go" is a very good thing in my opinion, which is what I try and do to entertain the natives of other countries I visit. I prefer to make people laugh than insult them. We learn as we go along.
One for the list...from an (English speaking) colleague at work:
Moel Siabod - Mouldy Sideboard

Cheers

In reply to Alan:

Ah well - I went there as a kiddy and was taught how to pronounce that.
But I've forgotten........

In reply to TN: Apparently most people say "Llanfiar PG"

good enough for me

In reply to Alan: wasn't this a made up name for the tourists anyway?

In reply to Alan:

That's about the only word I can pronounce in Welsh.

Actually, as someone who was born in Glasgow but has lived in England all my life I find the whole petty tribalism thing pretty childish. You'd have thought people would have better things to do with their lives.

Oh, and "Ambwlance", wtf is that about - don't tell me that's not the Welsh just being arsey.

In reply to Mark Tolver: Siop video
truc dumpio
truc tipio
;0)

In reply to Mark Tolver:

Makes me laugh,that one.

What i really have trouble with is the Scottish pronunciation of all the mountains up there.
I can say Ben nevis,and thats about all.

Are there any guidelines for the correct pronunciation?
Im going north in May so dont want to apear a complete arse!

In reply to Alan:

I have a lovely calendar with nice photos of the scottish mountains, interesting facts and figures and details of how to pronounce their names! Cool, huh? (Or very slightly anoracky, if you prefer...)
So in answer to your question - yes.

In reply to TN:
knowing you have that caledar is very helpfull.

Thanks

In reply to Alan:

cameron mcneish munros book has all the pronunciations of the munros... have to remember ofcourse that these don't apply on a tuesday and the second wednesday of every month

In reply to Alan:

It IS helpful if you need to know how to pronounce one of them, but since you took the pi$$ I wouldn't tell you anyway! :-P

<grin>

In reply to Alan: Scottish Hill and Mountain names.....drummond..........SMT
The Munros CD Rom from the SMT

Different jocks will tell u different pronunciations- Im sure they make it up as they go along to confuse the auld enemy - how the f*ck does Sneachda phoneticise as corrie an Trec. At least once u know the grammatical rules with Welsh pronunciation they dont change all the time

In reply to TN:
lmao

In reply to Dewi:
I've just read the whole thread which was hard work. Glad its lightened up a bit mind. Some of us english really have got to sort out the racist crap in our heads. The cymru in general just want to keep their language and culture alive and kicking without the ignorance and arrogance of the over-dominant english. You cant blame them if sometimes they go a bit over the top. (Like burning cottages)

anyway here are some welsh sounds for you

dd is a bit like th in there
w is more like u in chip butty when used in the middle of a word
c is always hard as in calf
ll is a clicky sh sound - but we will never quite get it
wy is like oy as in toy

You can start to learn welsh on bbc wales on the web (look up catchphrase in google.)

Pob lwc i pawb sy 'n dechrau. Ac os mae pobl yma sy 'n siarad cymreig, beth am dechrau thread yn y iaith

Chris (y saeson)

In reply to ChrisW: Chris what do u mean by over dominant english - saxon,viking,celt,pict,norman,jew,roman,afrocaribbean, asian, polish, kosovan, albanian, irish, gypsy....heeelllooo?????

In reply to Alan:

Well thank you for taking the trouble to ask.

The SMC publishes a book called 'Scottish Hill and Mountain Names' by Peter Drummond. It is available at bookshops and many outdoor shops for about 10gbp.

If, on the other hand, you have no time to look for the book, or you are too tight to spend a tenner, here is a ROUGH guide. I am a learner with a limited background in place-name study and local genealogy. This means I am no expert. The real problem with all of this is that the british (me included) never learn the International Phonetic Alphabet. This makes it really hard to describe pronunciation particularly since, even across a few dozen mile in regions of England, there are major variations in the pronunciation of English.

Gaelic/Gaidhlig
18 letters.
abcdefghilmnoprstu

A generally similar to english
BH (initial) like english 'v'
BH (medial) can be silent, often like english 'w'
BH (terminal) usually 'v' but can be silent
CH fairly hard guttural as used in many Eurpean languages
CHD as 'CH' above, but followed by a 'k' sound
D (next to a,o,u) hard sound, half-way to 't'
D (next to e,i) like english 'j'
DH (next to a,o,u) softer than 'ch'. baby can do it so why can't you?
DH (next to e,i) like english 'y'
E often as english 'ay' or french 'e' with acute accent particularly with 'u' (eu). sometimes similar to english.
FH silent
G harder than english, rather like 'k'
GH as 'DH'
H as in Irish, it plays little role on its own
I normally follows European pattern, like english 'ee'
LL as per english, but lengthens preceding vowel in a particular way. 'allt' (burn, stream) is a bit like the english word 'owl' with a 't' on the end.
MH as 'BH'
N if following a consonant, like well-rolled European 'r'
NN similar effects to those for 'LL'
PH as 'f' sound of english 'ph'
RR similar effects to those for 'LL'
S (next to a,o,u) as english, as in 'similar'
S (next to e,i) as english 'sh' as in 'shine'
SH like english 'h'
T (next to a,o,u) as for english in 'talk'
T (next to e,i) as for english 'ch' as in 'chalk' or 'church'
TH silent
U normally follows European pattern, like english 'oo'

Words with initial vowel exhibit same as french 'liaison' by borrowing the sound of the preceding consonant.

Some words use 't' or 'h' inserted after the definite article (an, na...) to assist pronunciation. The 't' silences the following 's'. Examples: an-t Sneachda. (an trechkuh), Bun na-h Abhainn.

There is pattern known as the 'parasitic vowel'. This occurs between l,n,r and b,g,m ...(??). Typical hill-name example is Carn Dearg (carn jerak).

As in English, or German, or French, there is regional variation.

http://www.distantoaks.com/g4u/sounds.html
http://www.houseofscotland.org/pronunciation.html
http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/roradh.htm
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~fiski/gaelic.html
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/beurla/

In reply to David Hooper:
Well we could always use the Norman Tebbit test ie anyone who supports england at rugby/cricket. That is not to say that you are all dominant or arrogant - but if you look at things from a welsh perspective its how many english people come across.

Peace and love

In reply to ChrisW: I've never forgiven my Dad, and his mother (Niney, to me), as they were both native Welsh speakers, and never taught me a word!

However, it doesn't help when I ask Welsh friends for words, and get 6 variations, dependent on size/sex etc of the object!

Yours, confused,

TTG (Diolch I DO know!)

In reply to JimF:

'S e an fhirinn a th' agad!

You speak with an unforked tongue my friend. Working professionally in Gaelic I can tell you that virtually everything is against unless you are dealing with learners or inerested parties.

In reply to ChrisW:
Hei bois 'dw i nol.
Wedi bod i ffwrdd am ychydig.
Llawer wedi digwydd!
Beth am siarad Cymraeg?
Dysgu Cymraeg?
Gret!
Dyma'r wers gyntaf-ar y ffordd!

In reply to JimF:

Nothing to do with the greed of the Highland lairds trying to buy favour and influence in Edinburgh and London during the 17th/18th century? This financial burden was usually lightened by booting out their clansmen and filling the glens with sheep. Read a book on the clearances, you'll find a distressing story of good old homegrown self-interest and corruption which has always been a feature of Scottish politics. Obviously the Hanoverians weren't blameless in these events but it wasn't all influence from south of the border that caused Gaeldom to end up in sucha sorry state.

In reply to Duncan Irving: ::Quite a few were not very Highland even as early as 300 years ago. In particular, the anglo-norman menace had corruptly seeped westward across the north-east under cover of the dog collar for some time. During the same period many were fighting hard politically, economically and militarily to maintain some pale shadow of the old pre-political order and some lost their heads over it. Tanaiste was not quite dead. In this house it is not dead yet.

Read? No, you read. Make sure you read more than the rantings of a few professional propagandists and self-indulgent city folk. But start with Engels and Morgan, to prepare your mind for the few snippets of real Highland history that remain and try to reach into another world that the modern capitalist lacky struggles to comprehend.


as ever
'Tha mi deiseal'

Seu....F

Since when did English become the one and only official and statutory language of Britain? Lots of us still use Gaelic, the Doric, Shetland, Welsh, Cornish etc. and are proud to continue doing so.

In reply to Dewi:

I do try to pronounce the welsh names correctly and am getting better at it now that I live in Wales and know bilingual people who I can ask for advice. I will not be learning the language in full though because learning a language takes a lot of time and I would rather learn French, Spanish, German etc. as they allow me to speak to new people. I have never yet met anyone in Wales who cannot communicate with me in english. I find it very strange that all schoolchildren here have to learn both languages. What's the point in being able to say the same thing to the same person in two different languages. For me, learning a new language should open new opportunities and Welsh does not do this.

I was a little dissapointed on my first day of teacher training in Bangor when a Uni. official came up to me and asked me the same question three times in Welsh (I know now that it was just asking if I spoke Welsh) she the said "I guess not" (in english) and walked off. I think that that's a terrible attitude as I would always try to make contact with a foreigner in their own language if I could and they were unable to speak english. I didn't believe the rumours about that sort of thing until I moved down here.

In reply to Dewi:

Dear Dewi,

Please get a decent personality or attitude and speak to people without being a dick.
It's annoying enough when you Arseholes can't make the effort to be friendly correctly.

Lots of love

Shneb

In reply to James G:


I had exactly the same problem when touring Aberystwyth, from an academic tutor and a member of library staff. I also had someone do that to me in a nightclub in Aber. It was one of the things that put me off going there, which is a shame cos it's a beautiful place, and a lot of the other people i met there were very friendly.

In reply to alison bond still at work:

at Uni I knew quite a few Welsh. Remember one time chatting away to one quite happily in (heavily accented, on both sides) English.

Along comes another sheep worrier. Immediately , without explanation or apology, they switch to speaking Welsh.

They just could not understand my annoyance with them....... At the end of the day the point of language is to communicate - if you have 3 people that can speak langauge A and only 2 can speak language B - you speak A. Thats just common courtesy. Anything else is deliberately exlusive and plain selfish.

Having said all that I do my humble best to get to grips with all Welsh and Gaelic pronunications place names...

In reply to GFoz:

Can be quite difficult though, even professional Scot Hamish Brown has admitted having trouble working out some of the hill names.

In reply to GFoz:
At the end of the day the point of language is to communicate - if you have 3 people that can speak langauge A and only 2 can speak language B - you speak A. Thats just common courtesy. Anything else is deliberately exlusive and plain selfish.

Absolute piffle!

If the third non speaker of welsh was not directly involved in the conversation then there is no need to speak a language that they understand.

My partner's Danish relatives are over here at the end of the week and I don't expect them to speak English in my presence all the time through some kind of common courtesy. To exepct them to would be extremely arrogant actually.

In fact I did not find myself feeling paranoid or annoyed when I was in Denmark as everyone was speaking Danish even though they are all fluent in English.

In reply to Fort Person:

Agreed. I lived in N Wales for 9 years and saw most attitudes from "they don't understand Welsh so we'll speak English" to "It's our country so tough".

I've had native Welsh speakers apologise to me for turning the conversation language to Welsh, even though I could understand around 80% of it. The old chestnut of "They were speaking English until I walked in the pub when they started to speak Welsh" is just that: Being bilingual, they use whatever language is easiest. The English speaker has just happened to walk in at the point of switching from English to Welsh. I even heard an old Welsh lady who, in the middle of a Welsh conversation say "It's cold today isn't it?" then revert to Welsh. It is just as easy to say this in Welsh as English!

Bob

In reply to Fort Person:

we'll have to agree to disagree.

My main point that the person I was speaking to was already engeged in a conversation with me - jumping out of a conversation and (effectively) blanking the person you were already speaking to is pretty seriously rude, whether that barrier is put up there by a change of language or anything else.

Was there not a guy who sent a letter in to 'Scottsih Mountaineer' in Gaelic recently? I'm sure he had something very interesting to say but I guess 99% of us will never know. Seems a bit of a waste.

In reply to GFoz:

Not a waste at all. He was speaking to me and saying that he agreed that the reasons for MCofS protests are not only for environmental reasons but mainly due to climbing or walking related issues.

When I wrote a Gaelic article for the MCofS there was some guy writing in complaining even though I had a translation. What a prick!

In reply to Fort Person:

I remember your article and (vaguely) remember being rather impressed by it. Agree anyone who complained about your article was a 'prick'.

If he was only speaking to you why was it publiclly published? Not complaining, just surprised because (without your kind summary) it would be entirely lost on 99% of the Sottish population. And as far as I know there are no (nil, nada, zilch) monolingual Gaelic speakers.

Don't get me wrong, I do my best to learn Gaelic words/pronuncuiations, I support the public funding of Gealic TV/radio/eductaion (not everyone does - pretty sepctacular budget per speaker) but using language to exclude makes no sense to me.

In reply to GFoz:

Totally agree. Initially I wasn't going to put a translation in but then I thought that that might be counter productive. But then I thought what is the point in the Gaelic in the first place? I compromised by have a condensed translation.

In reply to Fort Person:

>Totally agree

Now there's something you don't see every day on UKC

In reply to Dewi: I have a bit of question, how would you spell out mom and dad if you were from Southern Wales in Welsh. I'm trying to write a paper on the language, and so far I haven't gotten very far.

In reply to Anonymous: Nevermind- I finally found it. Is Mam and Tad right???

In reply to Anonymous: Mam, yes, never used Tad, though I'm not a proper "valleys boy".

In reply to Dewi:

I'm a welsh speaking welshman, and it does'nt annoy me.

One thing I dont like is people using my language as a political stick to beat english people with. I think welsh should be supported because it is a lovely language, it is a part of Wales, and I dont want a one size fits all Britain. In my book the english people I know, lots of whom have moved to Wales because they like it, are welcome and bring a lot with them. I am getting tired of a section of welsh society who reckon they speak for all of us, leaflet cars in Snowdonia, paint the Cromlech boulders with Welsh graffiti etc, if I ever find out who did that..

dyna ddigon am rwan..

In reply to Dewi:
Good posts from both the above boys, but actually I would like foreigners to try a bit harder, as the second poster says , it's a beautiful language . It's not beyond the wit people to learn . I learned welsh as an adult and it's not technically as difficult as is made out by non welsh speakers most of it is just ignorance (and sometimes laziness). Why don't we make a positive move and encourage guide book publishers to put in pronunciation guides as they have done with the 'Munros Almanac'. Also a translation of names would help climbers appreciate the culture and folklore behind , what for most outsiders , is a hidden culture.
Hwyl !

In reply to dominic griffiths:

I thought the CC guides did have translations of crag names, they don't have pronunciation guides though. Get onto Iwan Arfon and pester him since he has been instrumental in getting the correct Welsh names into the guides since the last Ogwen & Carneddau guide.

Bob

In reply to Gruff: Good post gruff my gran was beaten under welsh not which is why shre brought her boys up without weklsh. Me and my dada had to learn it as adults to reconnect with our own heritage. The welsh language surveves as the most healthy of all the celtic tongues because, since the 1960s welsh people have asked quietly but fimly for it to be respected.

In reply to Bob: Generally right, bob but not all guides do and thatv includes walking and scrammbling guide. Arfon has done some top work in helping here. Let's see it extended.

In reply to dominic griffiths:

I was only referring to the CC guides as those are the only ones I have had involvement with.

Bob

In reply to wire:
Fe godwn eto.Mae'r Cymry ar fin taro yn ol, pa ochr fyddi di pan ddaw dydd y farn?

In reply to Dewi: When are the welsh going to spell taxi correctly and dont say we dont use x in the welsh language, you can find a taxi in china.

In reply to Dewi:

Yeah whatever.

In reply to vince mcnally:
Typical Englished attitude.
Cricket in crisis.
Football flopped.
Tennis terrible.
What else have they got to live for but trample over a vulnerable nation-than again what's new.

In reply to dienw:
Fe fyddai ar ochor Gymru sydd yn rhan o'r byd mawr, dim yn edrych i mewn ac yn ol. Beth ar wyneb yr ddaear rwyt ti'n rwyt ti'n meddwl 'fe godwn eto' ? Amser i dyfu fynny rwyn meddwl.
Achos fe ddechreuodd y'r edefyn 'ma yn saesneg, dyma gyfieithiad byr i'r saeson:

cos' this is thread started in english, here is a summary:

anonymous:
We'll rise again, wales will strike back, what side will you be on ?

wire:
I'll be on the side of Wales in the wider world, not looking inwards and back. Time to grow up, I think.

In reply to Dewi:
.Gone are our homes, jobs , women, heritage and spellings.



women eh?
as a friend of mine said after a trip to wales "i know why they call it wales ",after seeing the women.you can keep them

In reply to Anonymous:
english public school perhaps ?

In reply to Dewi:

As a welsh woman living in London I accept that there are many english words that sound downright silly when I try to pronounce them correctly. If I were to be corrected every time I mispronounced something I'd be downright annoyed. Try not to be so pedantic. Tis outbursts such as yours that help give the welsh a bad name.

In reply to Hayley Dyer:

Thanks Hayley. We do try to get things right and it is the small minded nationalistic postings of all nations that are annoying and show the posters up as inward looking and unwilling to move on. There are many Welsh and Scots who go out and do great things, it is those who sit at home and do nothing except correct the mispronunciation of other nations who are the ones to be pitied.

I doublt if Dewis Spanish, German, Italian or French would stand up to scrutiny. Correct yes, but in a pleasant way.

In reply to sutty:
When you live in a street that your family has lived in for seven generations, and find that out of 14 houses here, only 2 are Welsh speaking now, sometimes you have to let of steam on this kind of issue.Ten years ago when I returned to the family house after college, all 14 houses were Welsh speaking.
It angers small minded individuals like us to see For Sale signs up every where, and only the incoming Englanders can afford to buy these houses.
Pembrokeshire was once affectionately called LITTLE ENGLAND BEYOND WALES, Ceredigion where I live could now be called LITTLE ENGLAND IN WALES.
You must have some amount of sympathy with us as we are not in a position to prevent all this happening, message boards like this are the only form of defending ourselves.
Yes it gets up your nose, but not as much as they get up our noses when they impose their ways upon us.
I wonder how many of you guys out there would feel at ease if twelve non-English speakers(e.g. French speakers) came to live in your street-go on have a think about it.

In reply to Dewi:

Your so full of shit. Think about it.

In reply to Dewi:


Similar situations are common in all rural areas. In the Lakes for instance, second home ownership and offcomers (like myself) are common.

Even 'locals' tend to be second generation at best.

Housing is unaffordable for locals for reasons largely, but not entirely, beyond their control. If the Welsh speakers on your street cared as passionately as you, why didn't they sell to welsh speakers instead of offcomers?

In reply to Dewi:


Dave said;

If the Welsh speakers on your street cared as passionately as you, why didn't they sell to welsh speakers instead of offcomers?

I do have some sympathy with your situation, the closing of the school at Rhdd Ddu due to the whole village apart from a few houses being sold by Welsh people to outsiders for holiday homes, and that was in the 70s.

The same thing happened to a relative in Slough years ago. The street they lived in got one asian, then another , then the last to move out were my Aunt when the rest of the houses had been occupied by them. At least the incomers in your area push the prices up, in Slough they depressed them.

I do hope you are willing to take back all your Welsh cousins that help run this country, we do not have the option of running yours. In fact all the Scots, Irish, Welsh, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Australian, Chinese, Indian, and all the others that have come to OUR country should sod off according to your thinking.

Ooops, no health service etc.

In reply to Dave Hunter:
Local Welsh speakers cannot afford house prices as directed by the current housing market and the greed of the Estate Agents.

In reply to Dewi:
I do have sympathy for your point of view but I think the reality is as Dave Hunter says - this is the same situation in all rural areas and it is broader social trends that are to blame. My family comes from North (i.e. welsh-speaking) Pembrokeshire and has been there as long as there any records (certainly before the mid-16th century). Yet at a recent family event we added up how many of my family at the level of my second cousins still lived in Pembrokeshire, and the answer was three out of forty two. The fact is that ambitious young people move out of peripheral rural areas in search of advancement in the cities, and this has been going on for at least fifty years. When my great-aunt had to move away from St David's to a home near her daughter it was sad that none of our family live there anymore. It's sad too that this great-Aunt felt that it wasn't much of a wrench to move anyway, because she didn't know anyone in St David's anymore, despite having lived there all her life. But you could fairly argue that it's the fault of the Welsh inhabitants for moving away as much as the fault of the English for moving in.

But I still agree with you that Welsh isn't at all difficult to pronounce if you make only a little effort, and it is very irritating that middle class English people who would laugh at the proles who can't pronounce Italian or French properly can't be bothered when it comes to Welsh.

In reply to sutty:

Language collectively determines what you are and as the Englanders move in they are killing a very precious language fisrt by mis-pronounciation then by mis-spelling and finally they give up and change house name into English.
Would it not make sense and be only fair for all England schools to teach Welsh as a second language from the age of 11 until 16, especially as we are next door to each other as it were.

In reply to Dewi:

Come on Dewi, get real. If the Welsh had a thriving self contained industry that people wanted to do trade with then the customer would make the effort. As it is German or Spanish or Chinese or Japanese are much more useful commercial languages.
Wales should keep its language, all the friends I have that live there go to classes as do their children but it is only for the culture, it is a useless language in any other country.

Try getting a Welsh translator in any other European country, it is not even on the list for the European Community.

BTW, by your reasoning you should be learning GAelic as you have the Irish ferries coming into Holyhead.

In reply to Dewi:
YAWWWWWNNNNNNNNN!! FFS Dewi! we're ALL bored with this! Get a life (job!)
it's been going on now for 4(?) months!!!!
P
P.S.Was gonna do a witty PS but really just cant be bothered!!!!

In reply to Dewi:
The English can barely manage one language so suggesting they're going to learn Welsh isn't in the realms of reality. But it would be good if everyone in the UK learnt history in a slightly less anglocentric way - see, for example, recent books like Kearney "The British Isles - A History of Four Nations" and Norman Davies - "The Isles". Actually I think it would do the English a lot of good to understand a bit more of their own Saxon heritage rather than the conventional story of the empire told from the point of view of the Norman ruling class.

In reply to Dewi:

Social engineering was tried once last century. Now what was its name? Oh yes - National Socialism.

Sarcasm aside, beligerence such as you are demonstrating will not help your cause. I lived in North Wales for nine years, I got on with all the Welsh residents in the village that I came into contact with - there may have been some who felt "Oh they should not be here" but either I didn't come across them or they didn't say anything to my face. I went to evening classes to learn Welsh, though I admit that I could have continued to a higher level than I did, but attempts to use the language in "real life" often met with replies in English so it was hardly encouraging. If you want the Welsh language to be accepted then things like mis-pronunciations are occasions to put the record straight and enter into conversation rather than argument.

In a way I know where you are coming from: I grew up in the Lakes, not as an offcomer but born and bred of the area. The house I grew up in has been the family home for over 120 years; I can point to houses where my great-great grandfathers were born; with one other exception all my family except for me live in the same valley that I grew up in. The area still "feels" like home, even though I have not lived there for nearly 15 years. I'd move back in a shot if I could: the only things are the house prices and suitable employment.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

We shouldn't forget that celtic nationalism has some pretty grubby antecedents. Before Plaid Cymru discovered socialism in the seventies it drew mostly from the example of de Valera's Ireland. And what many people recall most about de Valera was his telegram of sympathy to the German people on the death of Hitler.

In reply to Dewi:
If we take the differences between Wales and England, and look for the english to value welsh and Wales, as a way of supporting the country and the language, then I think that we will have chosen our strategy very badly. English politics has made a virtue of dis-respect for everybody that would not fit into suburban england. I can't pronounce French placenames, of Scottish come to that, so what ? English people are not the problem, it is their misfortune to be limited by english

In reply to Dewi:

I live in Hampshire and I am "next door" to France, not Wales. France, Belgium and the Netherlands are all closer than Wales. In my day-to-day life I'm more likely to come across someone whose first language is French, Italian, Spanish, Urdu, Punjabi or several other languages from the Indian sub-continent, than someone whose first language is Welsh.

I can sympathise with locals from North Wales being priced out of housing but as other people have said, that is happening in rural areas everywhere. I live in a rural village in Hampshire and most people who grow up here cannot afford houses unless they are lucky enough to get some of the very limited housing association accommodation.

I can understand your frustration about people who cannot spell Welsh names but again as other people have observed, most English can't express themselves well writing in their own language, let alone another one.

In reply to Dewi:

It rather suggests that your Welsh speaking neighbours wanted to move out. I assume they were not forced to sell their houses.

I live in London and a lot of my neighbours don't speak English (does not bother me) but I think if I complained I'd be branded a racist

In reply to jasonc:
Welsh speaking neighbours did not move out they were carried out -they died.Families wanted shot of houses and put on market to highest bidders.Prices between £120.000.000 - £180.000.000. Average local wage £11,000 a year- work it out.Effect of this is that Welsh language suffers.I'm an exception to the rule.I'm the 6th generation living in this house.With a seventh on the way.

In reply to Anonymous:
But why they call it 'Wales' really is that the Saxon word - 'wealas' (meaning foreigners) was applied by the SAXONS to the Celtic inhabitants of the western regions. A terrible irony then, that the inhabitants now call themselves 'foreigners' in a foreign tongue!

In reply to Dewi:

So what its exactly the same where I live - I've lived in London all my life but I cannot afford to buy a place. There's plenty of Welsh, Scots, Irish pushing up the prices

In reply to Andy Say:
we don't. we call ourselves Cymry. it is perhaps more ironic that non-Cymraeg speakers call themselves Welsh, suggesting they never truly belong??

Dafydd

In reply to Dewi:

Nationalism sucks. Beside most of us can hardly spell properly in English, never mind other languages.

BAH

In reply to Dewi: What do you think of people who despoil their own beautiful country by slashing the hateful "colonists out" graffiti over beautiful dry stone walls, crags and even the Cromlech Boulders?.........hiraeth?....longing for place?.....bollocks.....maybe some saxons love Cymru more than some petty spiteful hatefilled Cymrai

In reply to David Hooper: In our lane there is a holiday home owned by a London dwelling welsh couple originally from deniolen. An english lad renting a house owned by an english lad resident in Oz. Me and my partner (scouse /welsh and cockney/dideki) doing up a hovel that no welsh wanted to buy. A young welsh couple doing up another major project. The remaining three properties are slowly rotting away owned by a welsh guy who is just sitting on them and letting them rot...........a f*cking disgrace. Our community is bonded in common by a love of the mountains where we choose to live........not by race and blood. Although johnny Redhead did remark that we were living "behind enemy lines".

Open your heart and mind Dewi boyo- you sound like a right close minded bitter little tw*t.

we call snowdon, in welsh,eryri and that what we call it in llanerchymedd. p.s tibet !!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to geraint gwynedd:

That's a patently unreasonable request. People on UKC have enough trouble already with english

In reply to Dewi: Welsh is ead and pointless language anyway so why bother at all - its annoying enough when you driving down a road, see a road sign and before you manage to findthe start of the english bit you have passed the sign! Right off to Langolen (pronounced Lan-gol-en)!!!!!

In reply to JP:

What's the Welsh for Troll?

In reply to The Sultan of Loch Quoich:

Boyo.

In reply to Dewi:
Sorry, I'm a culprit.
I've got a welsh mate who has convinced me of her anti-colonialist tendancies so I'm perhaps less ignorant than my atempt to spell the names of welsh routes would suggest...