UKC

Dear boulderers,

Looking forward to two weeks Lake District and preparing some bouldering with my son. Wondering if somebody would please help us out with the British grades versus the 'Dutch'. Knowing both grade systems from experience would be most helpful. Thanks beforehand!

Kind regards,

Pjotr and Mats

I'm not sure what the Dutch system is, but in the UK we use Font grades (french) or V grade (American).

Thanks! I saw those, I believe we 'do' French too in the Netherlands, but in tables I found I got confused between two grade-systems that both looked French to me, but were completely different in difficulty (5c in one system 6b in the other).

Kind regards,

Pjotr

Perhaps if you were looking at a very old guide book you might see British technical grades given to boulder problems which while originally based on French/Font boulder grades did diverge somewhat in application such that perhaps British 5c could be Font 6b. That said, no recent guide book will have that problem. British technical grades are no longer used for boulder problems and only remain as part of the British trad climbing grading system.

Not true... all the current BMC Peak definitive guides, covering routes and bouldering have V grades and UK trad grades.

I guess it depends on your definition of recent. The Gritstone BMC Peak definitive guides are far from new - they were published between 15-20 years ago!!

They are still definitives and still sell (although Stanage may by now have sold out in UK climbing shops). I'd add Over the Moors is only 13 years old, Burbage infinity was reprinted and Roaches was completely revamped.

I read JLS's "recent" in the context of his "very old guidebooks".

Finally Rob, as both of us are involved in fellow publishing organisations we are potentially conflicted, yet have worked closely and constructively together on Peak issues in the Peak BMC area.... so maybe for the benefit of our community it's best we don't take cheap shots (as others sometimes sadly do)

One other innovation I was very pleased to be involved with was in the YMC gritstone guidebooks (just over 10 years old now ). We directly linked UK tech to Font grades as quite frankly no one could (nor can still) really say what any benchmark Font grade is sub f6A as the variability is so wide. Yet everyone on the team knew what UK tech grades were from 4a. YMC equated a typical single sequence middling f3 as middling UK tech 4a, f3+ as 4b, f4 as 4c, f4+ as 5a, and f5 as 5b. I felt the lower grade bouldering in that book was very much more  consistent than most as a result.

The UK is an unusual place.... we have so many people climbing at very low grades. The average logged grade on UKC logbooks for trad routes is only HS (about the same difficulty on a top rope as a F3+ sport route). I see this as wonderful, as alongside having some of the best climbers in the world we have a massive interest on the lowest levels of difficulty: fun activity for whatever ability.

Hi Pjotr

I think, as others have mentioned, that this is a confusion between the UK Technical grade and bouldering grades.

The table on this page might be a help - https://rockfax.com/climbing-guides/grades/

The current Lakes Bouldering guide uses Font grades, which you should find comparable to the grades you experience at walls in the Netherlands.

Alan

I'm not sure you can stake claim to them being definitive anymore. They certainly were back when they were published, but they haven't been for a long, long time. 

As you know, I have the utmost respect for you, and the volunteering you've done, and consider you a friend, but if I'm accused of a cheap shot then I think - in light of the comment above - you're guilty of an incredibly misleading shot, as it's factually inaccurate to say that they're "still definitives". I suspect if you removed the blinkers you'd agree with this too...

Either way, all of this is a moot point given the OP's enquiry. If you'd like to discuss it further by all means start a new thread - or drop me a line.

Apologies to the OP for the tangent!!

Rereading this, I apologise to you (and the OP): there was no need at all to be personal.

Thanks Alan, this is very helpful. Could I easily buy a recent guide in Manchester, Bowness or Ambleside or should I order this online beforehand?

Thanks again!

Pjotr and Mats

Hi Pjotr,

I live in Kendal and I'm unlikely to be using my copy of the bouldering guide in the near future (summer is trad season for me). If you want to borrow my copy for the duration of your trip you'd be more than welcome to.

Thanks, Steve

That's a great comparison table. I'm guessing the vast spread of each UK tech grade (vs the font and V grades) is because UK tech grades are sort of for the hardest single move (or are they for a sequence until you can shake out? chalk up? draw breath?). 

Personally  I find that ambiguity means I just don't understand them at all - all the more so because there is such a vast difference between how different people pace themselves whilst climbing. One person will be shaking out at a point where someone else will be sprinting for dear life. That difference can even be true for different people who are equally matched in terms of likelihood of falling off.

I once saw someone send Staminaband who didn't draw breath from start to finish. That's a traverse so long people often say it shouldn't get a boulder grade.

The Climbers' Shop in Ambleside and Needle Sport in Keswick will have copies of the Lake District Bouldering guide.

For the record you probably need the Vertebrate guide - https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Books-Media/Guidebooks/England/Lake-...

There is one of our books - https://rockfax.com/climbing-guides/books/lakes-bouldering/ - which is cheaper but is now 20 years old and covers much less.

Alan

The spread in UK tech grade is because, above 6a, the UK tech grade is bollocks these days. Below that, there is a near one-to-one translation since essentially they mean the same thing. A f5+ or a 5b/5c boulder problem are moves of a certain difficulty.

Above that though the top climbers of the 1980s got scared about pushing the tech grade upwards and sport climbing and sport grades came in to add to the confusion. They tended to load the E grade with their new even-harder new routes and this included a period of giving sport routes UK E/tech grades as well. Had they done it properly in the late 80s/early 90s then UK tech would be up to around 9a and virtually the same as a bouldering grade by now but it was capped at 6c/7a for some reason and people ridiculed those who graded things 7b. I am not sure it was ever likely to be different and the UK tech grade remains a useful thing for trad routes up to about E3.

Alan