UKC

Hi all,

I'm normally a lurker on these forums but after some advice. I've had knee problems for a while and both my physio and a specialist have both said they think bouldering - specifically falling - has made them worse due to the force and impact even on a soft mat. They've advised me to stop, at least for the time being. Roped climbing should be okay once I'm a bit more recovered.

This surprised me a bit, as I've never heard other climbers have a problem with it. I guess it makes sense, but it's massively disappointing. Has anyone else found falling has worn away at their knees, and got any advice for recovering?

No idea how long you've been bouldering but plenty of older climbers tend to limit their bouldering time because of bad knees. 

I've got no real advice other than to listen to the professionals 

Yeah, it's common for people who have bouldered a lot of who are older.

If you manage to get back to it, climb down as many moves a possible on each problem.

Hi, nice to hear from you.

I'm one - I think it's what you would call "jumper's knee".
(I'm not sure if I fall under Wide_Mouth_Frog's definition of 'older climbers' but I'm definitely old-ish, and also a bit of a heffalump.)

Indoor bouldering is still ok for me, but I have had to stop trying to land gracefully and do a sort of 'parachute roll' instead making no attempt to stay on my feet.  (It requires a fair bit of mat space to be sure of landing safely so I tend to avoid busy times, especially at the Works.)

I find I can jump/fall repeatedly that way and it's ok, but even a single 'graceful' landing from any height will mean painful knees for a day or two.

my son and his mates (all parcours people as well as climbers) were horrified to see how I landed both indoors and out. A quick teaching session of how to land (quite a long time ago) seems to have saved my knees. Worth seeking someone out with this knowledge.

Thanks! Yes, 'jumpers knee' is one of the issues for me too. I ended up dislocating my kneecap last year (not while bouldering) and it's possible the damage from falling predisposed me to the dislocation. I rarely bother staying on my feet when I fall, always go for the drop and roll... I'm pretty young, mid-twenties, and surprised to be having problems so soon though. Maybe it's time to find a ropes partner and commit to that for a few years.

It often seems to be described that way, but I don't think it is age related necessarily.  Probably no more than tennis or golfers elbow or other tendon issues.  I think it's more to do with relatively short-term overuse than long term wear & tear.

Cutting out the jumping down certainly seems like a good idea though at least for the time being, so maybe it's the ideal time to concentrate on climbing on a rope for a bit.  Worth seeing a physio too perhaps?  And once it's settled down a bit maybe see about getting a bit of an exercise regime in place to hopefully prevent it from reoccurring if you go back to bouldering after a of a break.

On my first trip to Fontainebleau I was told in no uncertain terms by a group of locals which included the great Jacky Godoffe, no less, to either climb down or walk round as otherwise over time I would destroy my knees and especially lower back. 

It makes me shudder to see people doing the hero leap from the top of (mostly indoor) problems. As a very near seventy year old I always down climb whenever possible, having suffered with a knee problem since 2004. I can appreciate the inevitable falls that do occur when working a problem or pushing the grade but it seems an absolute no brainer to jump off unnecessarily. 

At 68 I ruptured my ACL on a short jump indoors onto a pad.  My feet weren't more than eye-level above the ground.  Actually, I think the pad was the problem, as I jumped off from a stemming position, came down with my legs rather wide apart, and my angle rolled inward on the pad and the resulting deflection at the knee ruptured the ACL.

That was 11 years ago; the ACL was successfully repaired surgically, but I gave up bouldering for route climbing.

I first dislocated my knee cap when I was 18 pushing a car, but it has recurred many times over the years (including while climbing - once while doing a seriously deep Egyptian, once when landing badly from a surprise bouldering fall). I used to be great at landing bouldering falls (I started bouldering before mats were standard), but I've been very much more cautious for the last decade or so. I'm mid forties now. However, it's not all doom and gloom - throughout my twenties and thirties I went completely back to normal several times, taking big falls while bouldering once my knee had regained strength. I'm always very cautious, and can climb down pretty hard stuff, but it's not the end. I'm a bit timid at the moment after a stupid accident, but ever hopeful I can get back again. 

Whenever I get back into bouldering after concentrating on sport, my knees hurt for a bit. I tend to try and downclimb where possible, and only jump down if I'm falling. 

I think it's common sense that if you jump from 10 feet up, over and over again, for hours and hours a week, your knees are gunna tell you to go do one. 

And look at how many pros have knee surgery, or knee problems. Shauna is constantly have surgery on them, and she's not alone. 

I think indoor bouldering needs to normalise a kind of drop and roll action when jumping down or falling. Sticking the landing, is awful for your knees. Doing a paratrooper type landing, and rolling onto your back, distributes the energy from the fall. 

On the more extreme end of boulder related repetitive strain injuries, American boulderer Paul Robinson had to have 2 spinal discs replaced.  See - https://www.8a.nu/news/bouldering-caused-disc-replacement-for-robinson-kptz...

...never mind the horrendous video doing the rounds of the Asian lad losing his foot after a dyno move. Really huge dislocation and fracture of his ankle.

Don't jump down. It's really bad for you.

It's why I hate stupid parkour setting. Ah yes, make me run across 3 marginal volumes to get to a jug. How about no, I value my ankles. 

I was at Manchester Depot yesterday (not my local) and loads loads of the Reds had jugs most of the way, then a marginal move right at the top.  I backed off quite a few, to protect my back and my knees.

I must admit, I prefer the 4.2m walls over the more modern 4.5m walls.

Both my knees are dodgy. I did a fair bit of bouldering before mats arrived on the market, and have done a fair bit since. I imagine the damage is down mostly to the earlier years. 

I'm much more cautious jumping off/falling off on my infrequent bouldering trips now for that reason.

A other major benefit of downclimbing boulder problems is it helps build confidence for a perplexing crux on a trad route, where you need to reverse to a half rest.... or for those routes that involve climbing down.... or worse still if you realise you have just gone off route and need to go down to get back on the correct line.

Not sure if I am misremembering here, but I am sure the mats used to be much softer than they are now. This was 20+ years ago indoor bouldering, now if you do a crux move at the top, landing on the mats is like landing on a softer version of concrete, assume this is to preserve the longevity of the mats. I also read somewhere that the tight climbing shoes we wear means that when we land the force is not distributed through our toes properly so there is more impact taken up by the ankles/knees/hips/back. 

These days, any time I can't downclimb a bit and jump I let my legs collapse and roll back to dissipate the fall, rather than stopping it with my legs. My technique at doing that is almost definitely made up shite, but I have not had any knee issues since I started doing it.

I quite enjoy downclimbing.  I treat it as both physical endurance and technical training.  Not so easy when I've fluked my way to the top of something that was at my limit though.

Ha, likewise. These days I get scared I get scared jumping off from head height with 2 mats.

There is a school of thought that says that, hard mats produce fewer twists and sprains to ankles and potential liability claims. While the resulting long term damage to knees and backs from hard mats would be difficult to pin on your bouldering wall.

I wonder if bouldering walls are really sustainable in their current form if the long term impact on the body becomes linked to their use...?

Despite being a bit rubbish at it, I used to really enjoy bouldering but my back couldn't take it. I only rope climb now.

I always downclimb when I can for this reason. Do you do any exercise other than climbing? Knees, like other joints will benefit from strength training. Since moving to a hilly place and having to walk up hills regularly I've never had knee problems.

I'll back up your memory on this one.  I started climbing around 2007 at The Castle in London, and remember sometime in the 2007-2009 range where they switched to firmer mats.

Also, living in Sydney 2010-2014 the centre I climbed at had much softer mats than the UK centres I've climbed at.  (though it's a while ago so could have changed)

I assume the firmer top layer of foam in a mat stops ankles rolling, but I feel the foam under this has become too firm.  Unfortunately it feels like the priority is mat longevity rather than climbers joint longevity.

I can't speak to how it used to be but having lived in Europe prior to the UK can confirm that the mats in UK centres fall on the "like concrete" end of the spectrum. My centre also often sets bold moves at the top, which I rarely go for being short and not very brave. I have had to drop or have fallen from the top a few times, and it was a jarring experience. Definitely prefer a bit of a softer mat indoors.

Mats are definitely much harder now. I remember sinking into most mats landing and walking across them was like stepping across boggy ground. I guess they were more like gymnastics mats before walls proliferated. 

wrt the compliance of mats, when the Sheffield Depot and the Boardroom nr Queensferry both opened, the mats were hard enough to feel dangerous. They’ve softened up now, but still pretty firm. I’ve had home walls for years with 300mm gym mats, which are relatively soft, but fine from 4m. I guess just not robust enough for commercial use.

I’ve mentioned this before, but a session with parcours people learning how to land is a game changer, no parachute rolls involved.

The only time I have been to Alien Bloc I was shocked at how hard and painful the mats were even with controlled jumps. Maybe they were quite new then, but it put me off going back. In contrast, I find the squishy Ratho mats fine on my knees and to roll on to.

My personal experience is bouldering accident rates seem to have reduced with the harder mats and were always disproportionately high with beginners (who too often stiffen up in panic when falling). I'd love to see bouldering wall data on accident rates and how they have changed with different matting.