UKC

Not seen this posted yet, apologies if so.
 

Hooks Carr, Burbage North and Dennis Knoll car parks (stanage north, popular and burbage north/ west) are all going pay and display beginning next month. 
 

Just an FYI, don’t be caught short, I wonder if these machines will accept card. 
 

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/learning-about/news/current-news/new-nation...

I will very happily pay £40 a year IF they mark out the parking bays properly so people aren't parked like fools!!

Cue everyone parking like idiots all over the verges and road like they currently do at plantation area

 This.

Are they yellow lining the road? If it's not part of the plan already then we should start a sweepstake. I'll take one week after the 2024 Easter holiday.

The Pay and Display machines are down to PDNPA, whereas yellow lining the road would be Derbyshire County Council. 

I don't think you're wrong to be so cynical necessarily, but suspect that your "part of the plan" there hints at a level of joined-up thinking between the two organisations that we can only dream of.

Yay. My annual pass becomes even better value overnight. 👍👍

The simple answer would be to make all parking in a designated area pay& display whether in a carpark or not. Cars parked inappropriately could still be ticketed.

I’d be surprised if they don’t, Plantation does already. 

Anyone know what this means for parking late at night? For those of us of a headtorch persuasion 

Does anyone know the cost? It's interesting informing users of the start of pay and display but not giving details of cost etc. 

The announcement does mention that the new car parks will use their standard rates, and those are available on the website:

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/planning-your-visit/parking

Best option for locals is £40/year for a permit to cover all the council carparks (think it might be even cheaper if you live in Derbyshire).

The website says the charges only apply until 6pm (like their other car parks) and none of these new ones have barriers that they could use to close them out of hours, so you should be fine. I guess they could add a barrier to the Burbage one (think there's one on the Plantation parking?) but I don't think that would even be an option for Hooks or Dennis Knoll given the layout.

I think on balance I'm in favour of this as it will make it easier to get in at Popular end, as people won't be pushed that way because it's free and Plantation isn't.  If you're going to charge for any parking, you probably need to charge for all of it.

Still a shame the Stanage Sticker went away.

The press release says the charges are necessary to pay for things like toilets.

This is a great idea but what are the chances of even a portaloo appearing at Stanage Popular or Burbage? 

Ah thanks. That's the same as Plantation then right. Just worried this might become the start of restricting access later in the evening, but hopefully not - I can't see why they'd bother to pay to put a barrier in. I've definitely got back to the car after a sesh at about 11pm a few times!

Not so sure about that, there's a reason for the name 😁. In reality I suspect you'll be right but there'll be loads of cars parked on the verge going towards Hathersage which was already the natural overflow.

I'm not in agreement with charges at Hooks Carr and Dennis Knoll. In my mind, paid car parks should have an entrance. Both of those are basically roadside parking.

There's a Byway Open to All Traffic (public right of way for vehicles) straight through the middle of the Burbage car park so securing that car park overnight wouldn't be straightforward 

There's loads of roadside pay and display parking in Sheffield 

I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing, on the condition that the roads are lined and all cars parking on the verges are ticketed without mercy.

Also that any night-time restrictions are vigorously enforced, so that the road between Burbage and Stanage isn't endlessly coated in van wankers and the carparks aren't already half-filled before the first day-visitor arrives. 

Will there be any increase in parking spaces though? The parking can sometimes be saturated, even with loads of nobs parking on every available verge. It will encourage people to get public transport or car-share, but I can also see that the current official car parks alone will not meet the demand on some days. Perhaps that's a good thing for Stanage though; I might start cycling there.

Having an entrance makes it easier to do camera enforcement, but there's roadside P&D all over the country.

I'd be surprised if it encourages more people to get public transport to stanage because, as far as I can tell, there aren't really any buses to the same area [1]. According to that map the closest you can get is fox house or hathersage, both of which would put you a good 45min walk from burbage north (parking) and stanage. As you say, hopefully more people will car share and cycle.

[1] https://www.derbysbus.info/maps/county.htm

There could do with being some sort of proper Peak park and ride.  The main car park at Hathersage (which would work as a park and walk to Stanage) is tiny, and Sheffield station is 20 quid a day which is outrageous.  Marple is reasonable from the Manchester side though, there's lots of free or cheap parking around the station.

Is the £40 permit transferrable of you have >1 car in the household?

Sorry to be all nit-picky but you mean Peak District National Park Authority car parks. 

Besides those ones there are three different flavours of council P&D car park in the Peak and the PDNPA permit doesn't cover any of them: Derbyshire County Council, Derbyshire Dales District Council & High Peak Borough Council.  Then there are the National Trust, Severn Trent and Eastern Moors Partnership car parks. 

The Eastern Moors car parks - Curbar Gap and Robin Hood (for Birchen) are free for National Trust and RSPB members.  But no longer, I presume, free for PDNPA permit holders as they were some years ago.

For people visiting the area on holiday it's possibly worth noting that you can get a 7-day PDNPA permit for £15, but given that you have to use one of their car parks all day for 4 of the 7 days before you break even it doesn't seem like great value.

Me too, but more because it just isn't really feasible to run a bus service frequently enough, running early and late enough that it will appeal to people who could be driving there instead.  Same goes for park and ride.  The background to these P&D machines is a desperate need to raise a bit of revenue after years of swingeing cuts to local authorities' funding from central government - they can't afford to subsidise a bus service that doesn't at least break even.

Incidentally, you're missing an option on your map there - the 257 from Sheffield stops at Moscar Lodge.  From there it's quite an easy walk in to the other end of Stanage, and more convenient for all but the Pop End than walking up from Hathersage or Fox House.

Edit to add:
Cutthroat Bridge is also a good spot to walk in to Bamford from.  (As well as the Derwent Edges, obvs.)  At least through Spring and early Summer - later in the year there are bits of the walk in that way where you'll be up to your eyes in the bracken.

Unless they've changed it, previously the permit has been on a square of paper similar to a tax disk, where you can easily move it from one car to another. I never had any issues with moving it between vehicles, can't remember if I gave my original reg when I bought it though.

Does a club hut count as a household? Asking for a friend....

looking at the sample shown on the website it just seems to be as described with an permit number and expiry date and no space to enter a Reg number.

https://shop.peakdistrict.gov.uk/collections/parking-permits

It's fairly usual for electronic permits (for things like railway stations) to allow a second vehicle to be registered providing they don't both use it at the same time, if they do move to that approach later.

It doesn't seem to have made much difference at Curbar Gap, last Sunday being a case in point.

The press release even says it is to fund 'free' toilets. 

I freely admit I very much enjoy onanism, but I don't see why I shouldn't travel the night before to get an early start. You can do the same in a car (I used to regularly) the van just makes it more comfortable.

To confirm, it’s currently on a cardboard square like a beer mat, with no registration number, so easy to swap between vehicles. 

Most roadside P&D will be in built up areas, I was ignoring that although I should have (obviously in hindsight) said so.

Other examples of countryside roadside P&D? I'm sure there will be some but I can't think of any offhand (no doubt someone will come up with an example that I regularly drive past 😁).

The obvious one that has a similar issue of highly concentrated demand is the bottom of Pen y Pass.  Though one of the Councils has it P&D, go into the other one and it's free (I forget which way round).

Can't begin to imagine the state of a portaloo at Burbage after about one day of it being there. No thanks!!

Fwiw I've just applied for a permit (though in fairness I normally go to Burbage after 6pm anyway) and it didn't ask for my reg. Agree this needs to transferrable (beyond household) - I frequently car share and us all paying the £41.50 is a bit much since it's just one car at the crag - which is surely a good outcome.

As ever, a joined up system where you could pay one annual pass to cover Stanage, Curbar, Fairholmes, Edale etc would be the dream, but I can't see the respective authorities ever really seeing that as within their interests.

I've also lost patience with the vans and other vehicles at Pop tbh. I don't have a problem with night parking if it's in order to access the outdoors (for a night walk, headtorch sesh, etc) but pulling up and taking up extra space so you can have a nice table up outside your van etc and then folk can't get space in the morning (being able to spend all your time sleeping in the Peak is a privilege, let's face it) is somewhat taking the biscuit. Fundamentally, people parking up to sleep don't, I think, tend to park sensibly and close together like people parking in the day.

But why couldn't we have the long drop toilets that are commonplace at trailheads and climbers' parking areas in North America, other than the fact that people aren't used to them? 

NB I don't have any idea of maintenance or installation costs, but having seen them in a remarkable number of otherwise almost deserted places in Canada, I was very impressed. 

Interesting idea. In as much as one can like a toilet, I quite like a long-drop. It always feels like a wholesome dumping experience. 
The only reservation I'd have is based on a rather weary lack of confidence in the British public not to just throw their McDonalds wrappers, portable BBQs, dirty nappies, Red Bull cans etc down there, given the popularity and 'broad appeal' of the location. 

I could be miss remembering but I recall Bill Gordon the ex Stanage warden saying there was a local bylaw prohibiting overnight parking/camping on the North Lee estate, and that he usually allowed people good grace of one night but after that you were moved on. Never known were to search to confirm if this is true.

my main problem is when vans park sideways across several spaces rather than in the orientation of the bays.

Are they proposing new ones, or is it funding to keep the ones already present at the bottom end of Stanage going?  (Hardly anyone seems to know about those for some reason!)

Yeah, that's just rude, and the sort of behaviour that ruins it for everyone else.

The same as behind boulders, in bushes etc because there are no facilities.

If the council and NP (anywhere, not just Peak/s) acknowledge an area is popular enough for built car parks, pay machines then decent toilet facilities should be mandatory, they can be on a time lock between 2100 and 0600. 

The Sheffield Moors Partnership https://www.sheffieldmoors.co.uk/ absolutely wants to see joined up thinking on things like car parking in this area, but unfortunately it's easier said than done

Of course not, they're skint.  They're citing keeping the existing facilities open as one of the things they'll be using the income from the P&D machines for.

Get a grip.  Yes, in an ideal world there would be more public toilets, and loads of them wouldn't have closed over the last few years and the few years before that.  But that isn't where we're at now, nor anywhere remotely close.

There's a high quality public toilet at Stanage Plantation, which means Stanage Pop and the Northern end of Burbage are currently better catered for than just about anywhere else on the Eastern Edges.

There are plenty of places you'll find facilities closed and boarded up, maybe have a rant about that rather than the lack of a portaloo within a couple of km of a perfectly good bricks and mortar building.  And while you're at it, against the background of deep funding cuts year after year after year, perhaps express also express a little gratitude for the organisations and communities that have somehow managed to keep them open.
(eg: Low Bradfield, Over Haddon, Youlgreave, Middleton and Monyash.)

You'll notice i was speaking generally, across all NPs, not just specifically that car park. Either way yes there are a massive shortage of public facilities in all public areas, hills, urban parks, town centres, we are paying a fortune in parking to various agencies but get what in return?

We get a somewhat less massive shortage of public facilities than we otherwise would in the face of relentless massive cuts to local authorities' funding over more than a decade.

https://www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2023/09/Funding-gap-September-202...

It's just all $hit, literally, I'd consider myself like most here a healthy adult and there are times when were are nearly caught short, zero toilets, locked, wrong or no coins, queues etc... imagine what it's like for those with a condition, kids, babies, the old... there's no excuse for it. We pay council tax, pay to park, pay for everything and you can guarantee if you're stuck and are caught having wazz in public they'll be fining you for that too. 

Yes, we all pay handsomely for everything nowadays and get very little back in return, it mostly just disappears into the pockets of the already fabulously wealthy

Grindleford railway station?

Which ExiledScot is entirely correct to point out is utterly shite, and is worst of all for the most vulnerable in society*.  But anyone who thinks the national parks are somehow to blame for that really needs to give their head a bit of a wobble.

*- Who, for the avoidance of doubt, are mostly not those who have the time and money to drive up to Stanage and resent paying a couple of quid to park there.

I wobble it often, but still don't understand why a taxpayer funded organisation which encourages visitors, builds car parks, charges for their use can't at least be involved in building more Eco friendly toilets? It's not like any uk NP is a natural environment, they are man made or heavily influenced anyway. Just build some bogs, plant a few trees around it, power it by wind and solar. 

That's a different problem in itself, but doesn't really justify it. 

There is a public toilet in Hathersage or the plantation which is close enough for all but a few people with medical needs.

If it is a choice between having a toilet at Burbage (particularly to subsidise the holidays of van owners) and free parking I can bet what most people would choose even if desirable.

That's ok then, if I need to dump I'll just pack up everything, drive down the hill, park, dump, drive back up and park again, that'll easily work? And, you wonder why there's poo and paper all over the countryside, when you present such an obvious practical solution. 

Unless they have Crohn's or something meaning urgency, I suspect most people would do that in preference to squatting in a bush.

Those toilets aren't as well known as they should be, though.  There should perhaps be signage about them at Burbage and Popular.  I didn't know about them until a fair time after I started going there.

The challenge wouldn't be locating the toilet, but parking in Hathersage, then trying to repark back up the hill. What if the pooer isn't the driver, or should everyone take their own car the peak, public transport?

I guess you don't know about the toilet we're talking about either, then.  We aren't talking about Hathersage, we're talking about the one just along from Plantation car park, about OS grid 239837.  It is marked on the OS map, but surprisingly few people seem to know it exists.

I would agree it could do with either interavailability between the car park tickets (you could park at Plantation) or a few 30 minute spaces marked directly outside.  And yes getting a space again could be a hassle, to be fair to you.

If your mate wouldn't take you to the toilets for an urgent dump then they're not much of a mate, are they?  As for if you arrived entirely by public transport, you'd pass through Hathersage in most cases where there are also toilets.  Most peoples' bowels do give some warning, and I'm not sure watering a bush is anywhere near the same level of issue.

I'm all for provision of more toilets, but money is tight at the moment and at least these ones exist!

Obviously there are work around solutions, apart from 'wild' dumping, all involve driving. Do we really need to make everything harder and more car focused. 

All the parking on the main street is on a 45mins limit IIRC, there is a shortage of parking in hathersage at peak periods but that is another issue. 

Once again, the toilet we are talking about is not in Hathersage!

If even people on here don't know which one we are talking about - the one by the Plantation car park on the road - then it definitely needs to be better signed and publicised!

Basically everyone gets there by car (or bike I suppose) anyway.  If they don't, they probably arrived in Hathersage by train or bus, and could use the loo there before heading up.  Most people don't need a dump randomly unless they've eaten something bad!

Personally i hardly ever notice any human waste at crags so to say poo and paper all over the countryside is probably an exaggeration. If you desperately need the toilet at the middle of the Burbage Valley that urgently having a toilet at the north carpark by the time you have walked there is probably not going to be much help. There used toilets next to the Fox House but these have now closed but you could probably pop in the pub most of the time.

However every time I go climbing I encounter littler including numerous dog waste, and whilst I pick up rubbish I do draw the line at other peoples dog shit. Tackling some peoples attitudes to leaving rubbish seems more of a problem.

see my original reply https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/crag_access/stanage_and_burbage_going_pay...

"There is a public toilet in Hathersage or the plantation ..."

Where are you seeing all this poo and paper? I regularly climb on eastern grit, I live 10 minutes from Curbar, I walk there with family and mountain bike on the bridleways quite a lot too. I can't remember the last time I saw human poo. I went to a crag in France this summer where there was loads - much drier climate I guess. But I don't see it as being a big problem in the Peak. I'm absolutely not against there being more public loos though.

I'd agree with all of that and add we have Aps these days that show where public toilets are that helps counter the sad decline in availability.

I know a few people with major incontinence issues who still are very active outdoors: they have various coping mechanisms, including that other sort of pads.

If people get caught short regularly in the hills I'd strongly recommend wag bags... maybe best most climbers and hill walkers have one in their rucksack for emergency use when in the busiest areas, in case of unexpectedly urgent onset.  A single bag is only a few quid.

https://thedyrt.com/magazine/gear/wag-bag-camping-waste/

https://youtu.be/BpiX07wPKgE?si=-nvREdbl4tyZIps5

I do wonder if, thinking more widely, we do need to consider a culture change towards the use of "wag bags" rather than digging a hole.  That's the established approach in US national parks.  Having said that, the heavy plastic ones are not biodegradable so that's an issue in itself.  I seem to recall some climbers use plastic tubes in which biodegradable bags similar to dog shit bags can be placed and emptied at the end of the trip?

"Biodegradable" dog poo bags are not really biodegradable either, unless they go through an industrial composting process that realistically the overwhelming majority of them will not - their being sold as such is just greenwash.

Have a listen here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001n8nb

If we do move towards the use of "wag bags" culturally, dear god I hope we also move away from the culture of just leaving bags of shite hanging up in trees!

National Park authorities own very little land. Their job is largely to assess planning applications made within the NP with a bit of a remit to protect vulnerable habitats, promote tourism, and support local residents. If they do happen to own or lease land (like the Surprise View and Burbage Bridge car parks in the Peak) then they need to make an income from them because central government has starved them of funding to the point where they struggle to do their primary function. Building public toilets is hardly likely to be their top priority. I'm sure they would love to give planning permission for suitable eco friendly toilets in suitable locations should others choose to spend their money in that way.

I think it's best we consider the specific situation: firstly, use toilets where possible; secondly, in UK areas where foot traffic is low just dig a hole well away from any water course and pack out any toilet paper; thirdly, in busy areas (when caught short) use a wag bag. Yes, these days the tubes used on big walls are normally used to store wag bags.

If we went for the plastic tube approach mentioned, brown paper bags would probably work and would be genuinely biodegradable.  It only needs to last long enough to transfer the waste and toilet paper to the tube, which you empty by taking the lid off and tipping it out into a toilet, then disinfecting it afterwards.  It's just like a piece of drainpipe.

But yes, it'd be better for the dog just to crap on the floor than to have it hanging from a tree, at least then it can wash away.

Dunno about that.

Like a wet-wipe - or anything else but pee, poo and (toilet) paper - a brown paper bag strong enough for that really ought not to be going down a toilet connected to a sewer or a septic tank.  (I imagine it'd be fine in a composting toilet.)

People chucking those down the pan in public toilets (public WCs anyway) would be likely to cause blockages that cost money to fix, make looking after the facilities an even more unattractive job than it already is for volunteers and further exacerbate the difficulties in keeping them open.

Wag bags are specifically designed to be put in  rubbish bins,  not to be flushed. Same with dog poo bags. Wet wipes,  used pads etc should also not be flushed. I'm amazed Neil is suggesting what he does.

https://thinkbeforeyouflush.org/the-issue/#:~:text=Items%20like%20wet%20wip....

From the link:

I'm not suggesting the flushing of thick plastic wag bags.  I'm suggesting a potentially more eco-friendly alternative.

If a normal toilet isn't a viable disposal method, then some form of composting facility may be.

I know they use something a bit like this in the US in some national parks.

Edit: here you go, I knew I wasn't making it up:

https://cccsc.asn.au/home/info/poo-tube/

Laughably complex compared to a desert National Park solution with a multi use tube containing wag bags that just go into rubbish disposal.

I guess they do things differently in Australia but the US parks provide a lot of toilets and where you can't use a toilet advice on disposal is clear. 

https://lnt.org/disposing-of-waste-properly-wag-bags/#:~:text=WAG%20Bags%20....

The US tends to be totally unbothered about single-use plastic waste.  I guess Australia takes a more European line on it.

What about the shit covered greaseproof paper and leakage into the liner plastic bags and protective equipment (and gas explosion risk)?

I think the US way sounds better and more likely to get public use; including the fact that wagbags are biodegradable plastic in landfill. Plus some of the US NPs still recommend burying shit in some wetter forest wilderness circumstances. There are also toilets (that are more expensive) on busy long trails where shit is dry composted and urine is separated and soaked away.

I'm a massive fan of the composting toilets in the US at state and national parks.  Last time I visited they'd started to get stench pipes with a solar powered fan that meant fresh air was drawn in through the toilet seat (*) and foul air went out of the high pipe - it eliminated smells and flies from the loo, and was a very simple system.   There's no plumbing to break, they can't be blocked etc.

The Wetlands Trust site at Washington (England) has a composting toilet and it's always pleasant to use.  It has two tanks, and they move the toilet from one to the other, let the fallow one compost and then presumably have it cleared out. 

So, composting toilets do work in the UK in a regulatory compliant way and could be rolled out to more areas.  Requires a mindset of investing in infrastructure though...

(*) which admittedly feels a bit weird if you're sitting down

I've used a few in the UK. There are a couple at the scout camp used for Gowerfest (the main facility when it was a smaller festival)... just bung a bit of sawdust on before sending it away. Much nicer than a chemical portaloo or the toilet pits in scout camps in my youth.... also used wag bags and also buried waste when appropriate. I've also met quite a few folk who seem incapable of 'doing the business' in the wild.

I'd add I've never seen anything in the UK even a tenth as bad as the disgusting mess in bushes next to the climber's approach path to Gubia on Majorca.

I support this.

Although it may help with the National Park finances, which have been in decline for some time, I suspect that irresponsible parking will still be an issue.

For decades the UK has prioritised car use over public transport.

As bus use has declined, car numbers have increased, as well as getting physically bigger.

Too many people, in my opinion, view free parking as a right.

I recall in the mid 90s, when parking charges were first introduced at the Plantation car park, there was much angst at BMC Peak Area meeting.

Some people suggested that parking charges was the urbanisation of the countryside, which amounted to a breakdown in civilization (Mr Wilson: trying to minute his contributions was always a challenge - he did a lot of talking!).

A few, including me, suggested that parking charges combined with better public transport was needed.

Some 25 years later we have more parking charges, but sadly even worse public transport.

Perhaps we need a gate at each end of Stanage with a car policy of 'one in and one out' to control numbers?

So speaks a Sheffield resident - what about all those people who enjoy climbing on grit (or indeed walking in the Peak District) who live further away. The idea that a car-load of people can travel for 50 to a 100 miles for a day out, but then find that they have to turn round and go back, simply because they don't have the correct "app", haven't got a season ticket, or someone from 5 minutes cycle ride down the road has decided to drive in is absurd.

As for the idea that they could drive into Sheffield and then catch a bus - get real. The extra traffic problems, let alone the idea that we could trust the bus "service" to either be useable or actually work to a timetable - assuming they're working at all - is a sick joke.

If some of you living around the Peak District think that it's your own PRIVATE park want it that way - which is the undertone I get from some posts - then alright, but expect everywhere else in the country to go the same way. How would you like never being able to go to the Lakes again for example ?

Am I over-reacting - possibly, but I do remember that in the Covid period there were many parts of the country - the Peak included - where animosity to outsiders included damage to property and physical threats. This is the complete antithesis to society, and has no place in this country.

I think that you are over-reacting.

"If some of you living around the Peak District think that it's your own PRIVATE park want it that way - which is the undertone I get from some posts - then alright, but expect everywhere else in the country to go the same way. How would you like never being able to go to the Lakes again for example ?"

When I go to the popular areas of the Lakes, Wales, Scotland, if the car parking is full, I find somewhere else to climb or walk.

Just as there is in the Peak, there are plenty of other options.

The Peak is not my private playground. 

It used to be cheaper for Derbyshire residents, but this is no longer the case...

Doggers?

Sometimes, but I try to flash where I can 

Agreed, though am often at the crag a lot later than 9!

Fwiw I don't think you're majorly overreacting. The petty hostilities (albeit perhaps born of fear) between small neighbouring areas during Covid were shameful. Let's not forget it is a *national* park.

I'm the same,  but despite it taking me an hour to drive to Stanage that has never happened to me yet. I know if I leave home early on a busy day I can guarantee parking at Popular End and can enjoy the special early morning feel at the crag. However, I certainly don't need to do that because all Stanage parking willl be full (and I would inconvenience ohers as I try to car share where possible).  I say this as despite hundreds of visits over decades, with tens of occasions at the busiest time for arrivals on busy weekends, I have never had to park on the verge. On a couple of unusual occasions the Plantation parking was full with no sign of any imminent departure so I had to park slightly further away than I wanted and walk an extra five minutes to walk past a designated parking area.

I really struggle with the mentality of people who feel they have some kind of right to verge park at the Popular End when arriving at peak time; let alone the morons at Ogwen Cottage or Pen y Pas who park so badly they end up blocking progress of emergency vehicles. 

I hope one day the Stanage Pass will return so that parking income will be ringfenced to the Stanage estate. I hope bus services would one day improve to help climbers on tighter bugets. However, in the meantime, the annual pass is good value for regulars, free spaces with a longer walk-in will always be found for those who arrive early and parking costs across a car share are normally less than petrol costs.

These are two quite different things, no? Parking inconsiderately and causing a blockage is clearly unreasonable, and there are lots of ways to do that whether on a verge or anywhere else. I'm not sure I see how parking on a verge is inherently unreasonable provided it's done thoughtfully without causing an obstruction. Where would you park for Staden Quarry?

To be clear, I'm not advocating for parking on the Plantation verge instead of paying, or saying I'd go ahead and park on the verge if a load of people already had and it was starting to make life difficult for other traffic. But the road is wide enough at Popular for a reasonable number of cars to park without causing any problems and I don't see much wrong with that?

Unless things have changed recently I don’t recall Staden parking being a soft verge let alone banked up to discourage parking. Popular End verge parking damages the verge, does add congestion at busy times (narrows the road preventing two way traffic) and it's cheap and it's lazy when spaces are available at the Plantation car park (which they normally are).

I can't recall the verge by Popular being particularly soft or seeming to get any more damaged than anywhere else. You can certainly tell quite clearly that the verge at Staden is used for parking, for example, so it's not like the places where everyone verge parks are special cases where the verge doesn't get damaged. Plantation car park often used to have spaces but I've found it more full recently, perhaps due to accepting card payments now which significantly increases the convenience. I've certainly had to avoid it at times in the past due to just not having suitable change but would never do that now. Take your point about causing congestion by narrowing the road but that's a matter of degree. A few cars is no problem, filling up the whole length of the road is, which takes me back to the point about people needing to make judgements about whether there are enough cars already and it's becoming unreasonable. To be completely honest, it never occurred to me that the verge was deliberately banked to discourage parking, I would have assumed it was either the natural shape of it or constructed for drainage reasons.

Ah, the suitable change excuse. I can forgive the genuinely absent minded but any climber that doesn't have a small stash of coins in their car for that eventuality is just risking inconvenience.

The real question is how often do you not find a space at the Plantation carpark, and if full do you look around for few minutes to see if anyone who has been for a walk is about to leave.  All Peak parking is busier thanks to an increase in hillwalking but turnover to provide space in a full carpark is more regular as well as climbers tend to use spaces for longer.

The Peak Park explicitly say:

"Wherever you are in the National Park please do not park on grass verges, on either side of double-yellow lines, by farm gates or other undesignated areas as this can reduce access for farm vehicles, the emergency services and damage protected habitats."

I don't think you're over-reacting at all. There's definitely an element of this going on here, and I suspect that some people are supportive of paid parking because they think it will keep away the riffraff and make it more likely that they'll be able to find a space. That's pretty unlikely - the limited amount of parking will continue to fill up because its such a special place and its so easily accessible by car to a huge number of people in the cities surrounding the peak.

As has already been pointed out, what's needed to improve the parking situation is more spaces and better public transport. That isn't being mooted and there's no indication that us paying for parking now will make it more likely in the future.

Flat rate parking fees are regressive and hit less well-off people first - if you're thinking "they're insignificant compared to the cost of me running a car" maybe you should consider how your own circumstances might differ from others. There's plenty of people struggling with the cost of living these days and still managing to run a car, because they have to, who might well be put off travelling out by the extra expense. I know that for a fact because I work with people in that sort of situation every day.

Its a national park, designated as such to be enjoyed and visited by people from across the country. The sense of entitlement from some who live close by is palpable - I know, because I also live close by. The animosity towards vans at Callow Bank is similar - there's legitimate concerns, but some people have lost their heads and decided that every van is a problem, regardless of whether its there overnight or not.

It's not a small stash of coins though, it's a fiver a time. I don't generate that much change in a year. I still have notes I took out in the beforetimes. Like it or not cash is a nostalgic relic for most people now. 

And the solution is not to ask people to install an app and sign up for an account and blah blah in a car park where there's clearly not going to be phone signal. 

At any rate, given "However, the National Park is not accessed equally by all communities. We plan to tackle this inequality by removing barriers that prevent a diverse representation of users." they're going to have to help me out with how taking another fiver off visitors is removing any socioeconomic barriers. Without just sticking their fingers in their ears and declaring that anyone who uses a car must be minted.

That's a choice you make so don't complain if it inconveniences you. Many cash users don't have a similar opportunity to choose: 2% of the UK don't even have a bank account. It's not hard to take a note into a shop to buy something cheap and get a pocket  of change if you know you might occasionally need that (and then refresh after use).

Cash use has increased recently 

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2022/2022-q3/knocked-dow...

I'd agree on the hypocrisy of such empty statements from national parks and having Ap requirements for a car park with no phone reception is laughably stupid.

Photo below was a Saturday back in May when I was cycling past. I've seen it like that a number of times this summer. 

It isn't a solution, but it is very useful for non-technophobe smart phone owners for there to be a partnership with an app.  As there is with most local authorities these days.  ("PayByPhone" both sides of Stanage, in either Sheffield or Derbyshire Dales council car parks.) 

Now that PDNPA are so expanding their little collection of P&D machines I hope they're considering that.

Obviously you can't use the app where the phone signal is absent or poor but it's an option with most of them to pay via SMS instead which is much more tolerant of a patchy connection, and you can always pay before driving the last little bit to the car park (if you're confident of finding a space), or a short time after walking uphill from the car park.  At Stanage Plantation for example - I have a very poor signal at the car park itself, rock solid by the time I reach the plantation on foot.

Paying via SMS (text message) isn't particularly user friendly, but it's not rocket science either and once you've done it successfully the first time you can always just copy/paste subsequent messages.  Moot in the case of Stanage Pop or Burbage North anyway, the phone signal is fine.  (Not sure about Dennis Knoll.)

Okay? The cars I can see aren't even parked on the verge itself so we don't need to condemn them for damaging it. The road has effectively become single track but it looks like there are numerous effective "passing places" on the car park side so that ought to be manageable if drivers trying to pass by show some common sense as they'd have to on any other single track road. The road isn't super busy or a major through route, most of the traffic on it is accessing some part of Stanage. Most of the time when drivers moan about busy roads and congestion we'd tell them to suck it up as they're part of the problem anyway, why is it essential for them to be able to barrel down this particular minor road at the speed limit?

Now if that parking carries on down past the car park into the narrower section of the road where there aren't opportunities to pass, it really would start to cause chaos, including potentially to emergency vehicles, and I would consider that unreasonable. But I can't see anyone in that picture who seems to be taking the piss. What exactly do you object to?

Speaking as a confirmed non-technophobe computer geek - I absolutely hate the proliferation of parking apps. Wtf should I have to install a multitude of apps on my phone to pay for parking in different locations? It seems like a huge backward step to me. You can get exactly the same functionality from a webpage.

Fortunately, apps and SMS generally seem to be relegated to backup options these days, with almost all car parks I encounter now accepting contactless payments, which is my preferred option by a country mile. I assume, or at least hope, that this will be an option on the new machines. It certainly is at Plantation. The only reason not to do it would presumably be signal for the machine, which shouldn't be a problem many places these days.

Using an app to pay for a car park that has decent phone reception close-by however is not at all difficult, and having the facility* to do so is very useful.  I often do so at Church Bay on Anglesey during the summer, and it's considerably easier than finding a tenner's worth of shrapnel each time since the prices more than doubled just recently.

The problem with P&D machines that take cash is that there's a cost associated with collecting that cash, and a very significant cost attached to the repairs after a machine gets robbed.  Which frequently used to be the case at Surprise View - that machine no longer accepts cash for a reason - and at the Plantation prior to Nik (of this parish) and his lovely wife's period in residence there with their coffee van, which had a remarkably beneficial effect on the crime rate.

*Nobody has suggested making it a requirement, so that's a strawman.  At least for now.  Leeds and Nottingham both have areas of city street parking where the payment is app-only, because P&D machines being robbed and vandalised was a frequent and expensive problem for them.  Sheffield, being a more civilised sort of a place than either of those, retains the roadside machines at least for now.

I don't disagree about socioeconomic blinkeredness, but I don't really see it as a local thing - surely the "entitled local" position is that parking should be free and first-come-first-served, because parking costs have more impact on you if you're visiting more often because you live nearby whereas it's easier to "just get there early" if you've only got a 15 minute drive (but obviously overnight van parking should be banned because that's cheating). I've seen exactly this position in threads about LDNPA parking fees, for instance.

I have several of those apps on my phone because it's convenient to use them (some are better than others).  But as far as I'm aware all of them give you the option to pay via their webpage instead so there's no need to 'install a multitude of apps' if you don't want to.

Eg: 'PayByPhone' - the app you would use, if you were so inclined, in a council car park in Sheffield or Hathersage.  If you would prefer to use your browser to visit a webpage instead of using the app, no problem:  https://www.paybyphone.co.uk/

As I mentioned above they also give you the option to pay via text-message if you're already registered as a user, which is not particularly user-friendly* but very handy where the phone signal (or more particularly the data connection) is patchy.

*(Easy peasy for a non-technophobe computer geek like yourself however.  You just have to format your message correctly like using the command line.)

Toby clearly passed by a little later in the day when some of the early birds who got spaces in the car park had already left.  Those "effective passing places" are somewhat less than adequate in any case, especially for a larger vehicle - such as an ambulance or a fire engine for example.

Further down that road there are a couple of official passing places - when the parking at the Pop End is as it is in Toby's photo there, they're invariably chock full of parked cars/vans/campers too.

Once the P&D machines have arrived, I think the arrival of double yellow lines is probably inevitable.  (But as upthread - I doubt DCC are already planning that and suspect it'll be more of a reactive thing.)

I'd agree with your most of your reply to me (assuming we agree the strawman is yours... as it wasnt a point I made)... LSRH went further though. I still think it's just wise to carry some shrapnel in a car to avoid inconvenience on the few occasions you need it (a wider situation than just parking and some notes to keep struggling small business happy)

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-12682825/Pay-cash-sp...

Hence I do prefer a cash system backup, where it's practical, to help those less advantaged or over-stretched businesses.

I would remind you card machines in the Peak were vandalised as well in protest (glued up).

As for parking Aps I try and avoid them as I don’t want them clogging my phone. It's no loss for me as those on street Nottingham machines for street parking always seem the most expensive options anyhow ('tax' for convenience parkers !?).

I much prefer card if one payment method is available.

Having an annual permit is huge as many people will be daily users.

Regarding payments, yes many don't carry cash and there is an issue with vandalism and the cost of regular emptying. I utterly loath pay by app, don't want my phone cluttered up with them and it really penalises those who don't have smartphones, or signal issues.

Payments by card are the way forward, quick, simple, easy and I doubt if many car owners don't have a suitable bank account to support them.

I assumed the apparent gaps were just shorter vehicles obscured by the longer ones. It's always looked to me like there'd be space for even large vehicles to get through with cars parked where the photo shows. All it requires is a bit of common sense from drivers, which is always needed. Plenty of other places, in the countryside and urban areas, where idiotic drivers not giving way effectively could cause congestion or delay emergency vehicles.

Yep, I'd certainly agree that's bad behaviour.

Completely agree. No idea how long it will take but it seems very likely.

AIUI the "issue" with pay-by-card is that the machines need some sort of mobile signal (or wired internet) to work, a lot of the old ones used 3G, and 3G is now being switched off by the service providers in a lot of areas.

Pay-by-app is obviously much worse from an end-user's point of view, but putting up a sign saying "please pay using our app" is a lot cheaper than forking out for a newer card machine that supports 4G or 5G connectivity, so given that people are probably going to want to park anyway it's crap but not entirely surprising that a lot of car parks are using it.

This was a few weeks earlier - mid April. I saw a delivery van turn to come down past the parking , not get through and back up and have to go down the Dell instead. As you say I doubt an ambulance could get through. The first photo, it was chaos as the parking is what 300 mtrs long, and there were people parked on the road the whole way down. There weren't enough passing spaces as you say on the parking area, plenty of mini buses and longer vans using the full width, so people having to back up the whole way to the junction etc. And that was April and early May. I don't know but presumably it was as bad if not worse into the summer. I'm not blaming anyone but clearly plenty of people won't change venue if it's busy, and will park somewhere come what may. It does regular cause problems. 

Also loathe pay by app (as someone with an ancient phone and no space for the ruddy things) but pay by cash possibly even more so. By all means have that capability if it makes things more accessible (not something I'd considered to be honest) but by god, not solely that, please. In an age where banks are open all of about 5 seconds a day, and you need to somehow get there and queue up while also working, getting sufficient cash out to cover multiple trips is a horrendous faff.

End of the day we just need more parking capacity. There is no way round that, though I can't see a solution any time soon (with the exception of the odd place like the Roaches, where farmers open up fields for parking - but none round the areas we're talking about, as far as I'm aware. Whatever happened to the field at Birchen?). The need to be parked by 9.30 of a weekend limits crags to the fit and able and the local, and is one of the things I hate most about the Peak. Yes, you can drive elsewhere, but coordinating this with the one or multiple other partners you're meeting at the crag just becomes a mess.

I sympathise with the PDNP over funds but we really need to bring the national parks back to being parks for people from across the country, of all backgrounds, and no longer the preserve of the lucky few. While I strongly dislike the mandatory payment to access crags that's being brought in by this new charge, I would personally definitely consider a voluntary donation if that is the only revenue left now to keep national parks a resource for the whole of the populace.

If they don't have phone connection how the **** do they expect me to get it?

And at least in this case we're taking about a new machine anyway, so zero excuses for not purchasing one that is 4/5G compatible. If I can't pay easily then yes all the more incentive to look for free vergeside alternatives.

I've tried to be clear that I'm not defending parking "all the way down" or denying that it happens and causes problems. When the road narrows too much or the line of parked cars gets too long for drivers at opposite ends to see each other clearly, assess the situation and make sensible decisions about passing each other, the parking has got unreasonable. On the other hand, that's not visible in your first picture and the cars I can see there seem reasonably parked to me. I don't dispute the way you've described it down the rest of the road, I've seen it happen myself, I'm just commenting on the cars actually in the picture.

In your second picture, I'd criticise the vehicles closest to the end of the road on each side, but the rest of those visible don't seem out of order to me.

You spoke of using an app as being a 'requirement' - perhaps I misunderstood. 

In the areas of Notts and Leeds I had in mind it is because there are no machines, only a sign directing people to pay using their phone.

It's annoying but understandable, because the machines that used to be there were frequently robbed and/or vandalised and it must have been costing a fortune to keep replacing them.

OT, but once again I'm talking about where there are no machines.  Stonebridge Road in Notts for example, where the on-street parking is £2.40 per day but it is obligatory to pay by phone.  (Usually, but not necessarily, via the app.  Using a smartphone you can also pay online, using a 'dumb' phone you can do it by making a voice call or via SMS.)

They're not parking spaces though. As soon as people start parking outside of designated bays then it all goes to pot and people park like morons.

You plan on going to Stanage and turn up and there are people parked on verges, you join them. You turn up to Stanage and all the spaces are full but no one parked on verges, you're more-likely move on. 

The 'good' spaces on verges, out of the way, quickly get taken and the parking gets progressively worse. But it's 'allowed' because 50 other people have already done it. 

The roaches is a good example of where fines are pretty well enforced, and you don't see many people parking like nobs. 

Whatever they do, I hope they line the roads and actually mark out the parking bays properly (and conservatively), because there are always people who feel the need to leave daft spaces between them and the next car. Big vehicles with poor turning circles are particularly guilty of this (it's just lazy really; reverse it in tight). 

No, but nor is the road/verge/mixed parking at countless other climbing venues that don't have nearby car parks at all.

You're not entirely wrong, but I dislike the principle of holding the people who park reasonably and legally responsible for the people who are actually causing problems. Yes, some judgement and self-restraint is required, and some people lack both. But let's draw the line at the people actually behaving selfishly rather than lumping everyone together.

It is. It's also quite a different situation because they've changed the rules so parking on the road outside the marked bays actually isn't allowed (though as above, I'm sure that's coming to Stanage in some form sometime soon). And the field by the tearooms is almost always open when it's busy and offers ample overflow parking.

The P&D machine is rooted to the spot, you and your phone are not.  The Stanage Plantation machine didn't accept cards until very recently because it was always in a phone signal black spot, but you have a solid signal two minutes after leaving the car park there as you start walking up to the crag.

Not at all user-friendly, but easy after the first time, most of the apps also allow you to pay via SMS using no mobile data and a 2G signal too sketchy for even a voice call*.  The machine can't process a card payment without a solid data connection.

*Edit to add:
In Sheffield or Derbyshire Dales council car parks, which allow you to use the "PayByPhone" app, here's how you do that:
https://support.paybyphone.com/hc/en-001/articles/12154907909393-How-do-I-p...

Yes - this simply has to happen around Stanage if you are making the carparks P&D (and I'm fully in favour of that). It's not fair making people who care and/or make a proper judgement call pay whilst others do what they want. 

Yes judgement and self-restraint is needed but there will always be people who don't exercise this and the only way to combat it is a blanket ban on parking outside of designated bays (again, something I am in favour of). 

99% of people who park at Stanage aren't thinking ''oh, better make sure an ambulance can fit past". They're thinking "damn I need to get parked up. Should have left earlier. Can I just squeeze in behind this one? They're sticking out more than me so should be fine". 

I lost patience with people about the 100th time I saw cars parked up outside the half-full Plantation car park, right in front of a NP sign begging people not to park on verges and to help fund the park they are visiting by using a P&D carpark. 

We don't deserve any better. 

It's specifically the 3G network that they were relying on and that's being turned off - a phone should (maybe?) still have 4G.

I'm not defending this, mind - it's still imposing a pain-in-the-arse onto the users to save money for the providers. Putting the things in actual blackspots is even more indefensible, but hopefully rarer in this day and age.

You have summed up my thoughts very well!

Totally agree. Was at the plantation a fortnight ago and as ever, we arrived to packed verges and a half empty car park. The Plantation itself was as busy as I've EVER seen it as we left and there were still spaces in the car park.

You'd support this everywhere in the Peak?! Or just in areas where there's a substantial car park nearby and some of the parking is often inconsiderate?

I think most mobile phone users are reasonably familiar with the concept that you'll often get a better signal by moving a little bit, and particularly by moving a little way up the hill if you're in a hollow.  Especially outdoorsy types, perhaps even silly foreign ones.

The fact that you can use an "app" without necessarily having to use the actual app (and that link to clear instructions on how to pay by SMS in Sheffield and Derbyshire) - well, that's just information that I'm sharing here on the offchance that others might find it as easy and convenient as I do.  Doesn't bother me in the slightest if they're not interested.

Anywhere where there is designated parking, frequent parking problems, and an increasing number of visitors, yes. No I don't think the 3 cars parked at Staden need ticketing or any designated P&D carparks creating. For other major edges, especially those which do not have any formal parking currently, yes I would be in favour of it. A lot of the Eastern edges already have P&D carparks. Froggatt is the biggest one I can think of which doesn't but it doesn't have armies of hikers and dog-walkers swarming it either. Plantation being P&D and the verges and Pop/High Neb being free is a weird setup anyway. I've never been comfortable with it. I'd be happy to pay but it's weird that some people do and some don't and that the people who don't either just got lucky, got up earlier, or park like a wanker. 

As I've said before though, it only works if the thinking is joined up and if better public transport is put in place.    

You forgot the carparks at either end of the Froggatt Curbar escarpment.

Froggatt has the NT car park just across the road from the gate at the northern end. You drive down to the car park from a bit below the Grouse. Froggatt strikes me as very popular with walkers and, because its a permissive bridleway along the top, mountain bikers too. I know climbers tend to cram into the roadside bays, or the free parking up by the Grouse, but there is biggish pay and display (or use your NT card) car park there as well.

In reply to deepsoup:

Had no idea it existed! 

Oops - I just deleted the post you replied to there.  (I was beaten to it so it seemed a bit redundant.)

It's sometimes full at busy times - but then again, like the Plantation, it also frequently has plenty of space while people are parking like idiots outside.  (Especially on that dodgy bend on the A625.)

It's particularly handy for NT members, obvs.  The main Longshaw Estate car park sometimes is too, for Burbage South.

I assume you don’t park selfishly, like those other people, the bad ones, who lack your judgment and self-restraint.

The PDNPA doesn’t make that fine distinction however. They see all verge parking as undesirable and ask visitors not to do it:

”Wherever you are in the National Park please do not park on grass verges, on either side of double-yellow lines, by farm gates or other undesignated areas as this can reduce access for farm vehicles, the emergency services and damage protected habitats.”

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/planning-your-visit/parking#:~:tex....

And this is the crux of the problem. Since privatisation it has proved almost impossible to influence bus and train services to improve.

Foreign visitors - if clamping isn't being used then couldn't a foreign visitor just ignore paying for parking - how exactly are they going to chase José when he's back in Spain etc?

(Not saying they shouldn't pay)

It's worth noting than anyone on Three, Smarty or ID does not have, and never has had, any access to a 2G signal anywhere because Three have never operated a 2G network.

Do many machines actually rely on 3G with no 4G capability? There's not many machines left out there that predate 4G so that's a rubbish design choice if it is the case.

EE and Three's 3G sunsetting plans are going to be a soft rollout: they aren't actually switching anything off, they are just gradually repurposing 3G equipment to 4G from next year. So places that previously received a 3G signal will now receive a 4G signal using the exact same frequency and equipment.

​​​​​​So all you'll notice as a user is that your phone will get a 4G signal in places that used to only get a 3G signal. As more and more locations get their equipment repurposed, it will become rarer and rarer for your phone to connect to 3G. The more remote locations will likely be among the last to change over.

I don't know what Vodafone and O2's 3G sunsetting plans are.

Please can anyone confirm if Hooks Carr ( Stanage Popular ) is now P&D and if so cash or card ?

The website doesn't show either FREE or Payment - just a blank !

Thanks

Didn't notice any machines as I drove past Stanage/Burbage this morning 

It's still showing as free on the website just now. I've been checking for an update occasionally, to find out whether they'll take card payments.

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/planning-your-visit/parking/parkin...

But quite possible that only means they haven't updated the website rather than it actually still being free.

It doesn't surprise me that they haven't installed them yet, the press release did make it sound ambiguous as to when they'd actually be up and running, it seems like they're just pre warning everyone. I personally can't wait for the ticket machine surprise, its like playing the lottery everytime I drive past!

Just an update, Burbage is now pay and display, the machine was in operation today (perfect time for the good weather this weekend). I don’t know about stanage. 
 

Card machine wasn’t working it was only accepting cash. 

Was the carpark empty and verges rammed then?

Machines at Stanage Popular and Dennis Knoll now too.

At Dennis Knoll I'm not sure if the verges on the road down towards the cattle grid require payment or if it's just the small area for about 8 vehicles by the machine?

According to what we've been told at Stanage Forum meetings, the charges can only be applied in the designated parking spaces - so at High Neb (Dennis Knoll) that's the small tarmacked area by the machine, not the verges. Same at Popular - you can only be charged for parking in the designated parking area, not the verges opposite or down the road.

All money from the machines does go to the Stanage estate budget, though.

Re some earlier questions, all machines at Stanage take cards. The machine at Burbage is set up for both cards and cash, but as it has no signal it's currently cash only. Quite a few cars turning round in there this morning as a result I think.

I'm not sure if the PDNPA car parks website has been updated yet - if it hasn't I'll email them on Monday.

Interesting weekend for the machines to go in. It's heaving out there.

Louise (BMC rep on Stanage Forum)

I would imagine most car parks use contactless.

apps are not use to me as I can't get them on my Nokia.

If you register online first, you can use 'PayByPhone' by sending a short text message instead of using the app.  (Don't have to of course if there's a machine there you can use, I'm only telling you this in case it's useful.)

I do it that way quite regularly in a couple of Anglesey car parks where the phone signal is too sketchy for the app to work properly.

That's good know. Is this aspect of it being widely publicised by the NP do you know?

Interesting, I didn't know that.

Saying the money from the Parking goes to the Stanage Estate doesn't excuse it in my view. If it was all totally unmanaged "waste ground" it would be great for climbing and great for wildlife. Basically the money from the Parking pays for staff who do stuff such as put up Parking meters.

If the money from the parking meters instead went to subsidies for buses serving the carpark areas, then I'd have an enthusiastic view of it instead of my current wholly negative and cynical view of it.

My observations as I went past on Sunday afternoon, 

Dennis Knoll - Only 4 cars on the small tarmacked area by the machine, 20+ on the verge downhill, and about 10 on the verge alongside the wall by the cattlegrid opposite the tarmacced area.

Plantation - Plenty of spaces in carpark, about 15 cars on verges

Popular End - 30ish cars in the laybys. Only 1 car on the verge near the cattlegrid, (which was a pleasant surprise)

Burbage - A few spaces in the carpark. The layby near the Burbage North gates was fully parked up. Lots of verge parking, on both sides of the road 

It has been clear for sometime at the Plantation that some people prefer to park for free on verges than pay to use the carpark. It would appear that this is now happening at Dennis Knoll and Burbage 

Its hardly surprising if the car park machines aren't taking card. That is inexcusable at Burbage of all places, its a few miles from Sheffield for goodness sake. No matter what Offwidth says I'm not about to start carrying around a tenner in cash at all times in my car and nor is anyone else! I'll happily pay to park wherever I go climbing, and did so at Wimberry the other day, but if it doesn't take card then all bets are off.

Generally it sounds like "damn, the verges are full, we'll have to use the car park"

What exactly were they expecting.

Your choice (I just gave my reasons for it being a good idea)...

That's nonsense, I know plenty who carry cash for the same reasons I do (not just parking when I can't use my card but also because small shops in climbing areas much prefer cash as profit margins are so tight that card charges are a real issue for them).

Do they offer one of the apps e.g. RingGo?

I know, I disagree, thats why I posted that I disagreed.

People overwhelmingly do not carry cash anywhere near as much as they used to. The idea that people visiting a national park should have to carry exact change for parking is absolute nonsense. As for card charges, they are a part of modern life, shops should charge a bit more for what they're selling to cover the difference and accept the card payments. 

I think it has always happened at Dennis Knoll, normally the cliff side of the road south to the cattle grid is all cars plus some on the woods side as well.

I'm fine with your opinion... just not with your implication everyone else disagreed with me.

Unfortunately it happens even if you think it's nonsense, so I find it useful then.

What about a struggling small shop, if you are say just buying a pint of milk?

Clearly not everyone, you do get people championing cash but since we're dealing in anecdata, in my experience they tend to be conspiracy theorists who think the government are trying to control us through card payments or 15 minute cities or boomer luddites who don't like the modern world. You're the exception but I don't think you're a big cohort! 

I don't carry cash. If they want my money they need to take card or I'll go elsewhere, to a Tesco if I need to, which is a shame cause I'd like to buy stuff from small shops, just as I would like to pay the PDNP to park at Burbage! If they don't take card I'll be parking legally on the verge or in a layby, which seems a shame.

Cash takes a lot of staff time to count/handle, plus the time to get to a bank to pay it in. Oh, not to mention that backs charge businesses to pay in cash! 

So I think most businesses can absorb card charges in just the same way they can cash charges.

Exactly this. 

Went past on Saturday lunchtime (the sunny day of the two) and some of the parking was fabulously awful. I'm amazed there hasn't been an accident on the Dale with some of the parking we saw coupled with low sun blinding you (or those wretched LED headlights). Both Burbage and Popular car parks looked fullish but more parking on the verges than normal; hard to tell what was due to charging v just an unusually lovely day.

We ended up parking fully off the road on the Dale but I'm not sure I'd call it 'verge' when there's no grass. 

There just aren't enough spaces at the end of the day, and add in that some of the laybys are churned up/dip down dangerously if you're trying to park not in a van.

Personally I don't park outside those car parks to avoid paying - I've just bought an annual permit in response to the introduction of fees - but the car parks looked full and why walk further uphill (going to Stanage Far Right) when there's safe space, not damaging anything, to park off the road elsewhere-? (Emphasis on the 'safe' - a lot of the others weren't.)

I agree with comments about carrying cash though - I've just spent £41.50 on a permit and yet had to fork out about £5.20 to park in Baslow the following day because none of the parking permits talk to one another. I don't know how anyone keeps a steady enough, large enough supply of cash unless they quit their jobs so they can go into town into the bank for the 5 minutes they're open these days... So actually, I can see why people might want to avoid paying if they need to buy a new annual permit for every other car park! 

​​​

Yes. Though I'm not really sure where the car park starts and ends there. There's also too much of it that's churned up mud or rubbish in a little car.

Fortunately a pint of milk is quite a bit cheaper than a tenner (for now).  But it's hardly surprising the shop is struggling if they don't accept card payments in 2023.

Obviously spidermonkey doesn't think literally nobody else carries a tenner's worth of loose change in the car besides just you, but few enough people do that it would clearly be pretty ludicrous installing a brand new cash-only machine in a car park now and expecting more than a handful of people to actually use it.

Hopefully the Burbage machine apparently being unable to process card payments for the mo is just teething troubles.  Nevertheless, if it's come as a surprise to PDNPA that the signal there doesn't support the rather expensive machine they've just installed that would seem to smack of pretty serious incompetence. 

It's about time PDNPA started accepting remote payments via one of the apps too.  (PayByPhone would be the obvious choice, as that's the one the locals are already using in Sheffield, Derbyshire Dales & High Peak council car parks.)  More people, I suspect, than are still in the habit of carrying a pocketful of shrapnel to shovel in.

No surprise if the new machines at Stanage have exacerbated poor parking, but at Burbage the layby on the Sheffield side of the bridge filling up first while the car park was still largely empty has always been the case.

I stay friends with some conspiracy theorist climbers (for  my own good reasons) but I have never talked to them about cash payment for parking. The ones I have talked to are just ordinary climbers and hill ealkers who would pay if no free spaces are convenient and sometimes coins are the only solution (and who also never verge park... ie on grass partly blocking the road).

As for small shops, it's hardly anecdote.... card charges are reported to be a growing problem in the cost of living crisis and I'm highly sympathetic and will do my best to help. I've seen too many good convenient shops forced to close over the years. 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-12682825/Pay-cash-sp...

We parked in Plantation at about 11am and there was loads of space still. The verges around the toilets were rammed and several cars were edging onto the road, where there wasn't the space to get fully on the verge by the wall. But then it's often like that. 

On the cash-front, I'm quite glad when machines take cash as it's the only place I get rid of it nowadays. I have a tin in the glovebox which pretty much ticks over. Where would I get rid of my shrapnel if it was all contactless?

I wouldn't have expected Plantation to have changed as much as the others though, though perhaps pick up some of the slack for adjacent walls.

I don't know how you maintain a tin of shrapnel - it disappears in about two visits! 

Lumping Offwidth together with the anti-vaxxers and roundabout nutters wouldn’t be your finest post, Spiders. 

The venn  diagram of people who see merit in retaining some cash vs flat earthers doesn’t form a perfect circle either as other posts here demonstrate.

Although in fairness I haven’t canvassed their views,  I do carry a pot of random coins and believe the world stops at Holyhead, so you never know…

I did say he was the exception in the post! 

Well, a man is judged by the company he keeps. 

You might not be helping as much as you think. I made it a habit to ask ever since I asked our local alternator artisan/magician what he'd prefer and he told me it makes no difference because it costs him just as much to put cash in the bank. Business accounts suck. Only reason to prefer cash is if it's never going to show up on the books, but I doubt a tea room in the peak is an efficient money laundering operation.

You’ve clearly not bought a NT scone recently.

Maybe try talking to more mundane shopkeepers. It does seem like you are wrong about relative fees for most. Two examples from the article I linked (one of a growing number):

Sounds like a theme for a new Edith Pritchett.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/edith-pritchett-s-venn-diag...

I'll just stick to asking each time. In my experience the responses don't support that 'most'.

In the end consideration of the issue and asking the small retailer at the till how they would prefer you to pay is all I want. Shops selling expensive single items would likely prefer electronic payment. Cash use was on a steady decline but recent analysis shows a reversal.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2022/2022-q3/knocked-dow....

I'm also aware some coffee shops in particular hit the news for electronic payment only. Shops asking customers to pay cash in the cost of living crisis is also increasingly a 'thing' in the US.

I'd more ask the customers than the business owner.  Businesses exist to serve customers, and so should accept the payment methods the customers want them to accept.

The idea that the business owner's views are paramount is what kills a lot of small business, because then big business comes in and takes over.

Think Tesco.  People want to shop a good range at 10pm, for instance.  Your local butcher, baker and candlestick maker resolutely stuck to 9am to 5pm, half day Weds, closed Sunday, and so everyone chose Tesco instead.

The customer is paramount.  If they aren't, they just go elsewhere.

You're mixing different issues.  You are in the shop and about to pay and as such your argument (from an issue that drove change half a century ago) simply doesn't apply beyond a small convenience factor for the customer.

The problem is too many individual customers don't realise what they risk until it's too late. If you have quality local business it needs supporting or it will close. That's a community issue and a wider political issue. Climbers should realise that more than most given the loss of most independent climbing shops.

It absolutely does apply, because a lot of the time people do not have cash on them, because there are vanishingly few reasons to get some out when everywhere else takes card.

This is a generational issue. I am 30 and actively avoid getting cash out. My siblings in their early 20s have grown up contactless and simply don't use it, so shops can have a preference all they want, but they don't carry it. My dad is in his 60s and only uses cash because hes a luddite. I would be willing to bet that the proportion of under 30s who use cash regularly is minuscule, so businesses can either embrace the change or rail against it but it will happen regardless. 

£10/42 hour minimum wage (unlikely you will have minimum wage staff trusted to do the banking and doesn't include employer NI/pension contributions).

Cashing up each day, let's say 30 minutes a time.

Visiting I bank once a week (need sufficient insurance for value of cash on premises, so more likely twice a week), let's say an hour. Also if not in walking distance need taxis or a company vehicle as unlikely that employees personal cars will be insured for business use.

That's £36/week, or £1,896/year just in staff time! 

Then you need to add in the fees that banks charge for paying cash in, oh and the extra fees you pay for exchanging cash so that you have enough small change for customers who only have notes.

took a long time to persuade my employer to offer card payments, but they saved me HOURS of time that could be better used during other elements of my job. 

As Jenny C aludes to earlier, I'd hazard a guess that cash is more expensive to handle than the cost of card charges. No transaction is without cost.

The cynic in me assumes that those small business who still only deal in cash are shirking either their VAT or corporation tax responsibilities.

What about the fees that the banks charge for each and every card payment. The cafe round the corner from where I work refuses to take cards for lees than £5 because if they did they'd make a loss on the deal. It's all well and good when the bill is a "decent" figure, but piddling amounts - say getting a pint of milk - are worse than useless.

There's also the problem with connectivity. Leaving aside the hoo-ha last weekend when one banking unit's system went down around "Black Friday", which meant their Customers were well and truly stuffed. There are many areas in the country - you know those areas NOT in London, Manchester or any of the other major metropolitan areas - where reception is either poor or non-existent. In these areas if a business was to rely solely on cards or Apps then a good portion of the time their customers would have to have things "on the slate" until reception returns. As such it's surely prudent to carry a certain amount of cash in case you find yourself in such a location.

Before Offwidth dragged the discussion off-topic and into the corner shop, lets remember that we're talking about P&D machines too.  So someone has to drive out to the machine in their little van to actually collect the cash in the first place.

Well, it does, because if I get up to the desk and I only have card, then I'm going to leave the product there and walk out.  I do carry some cash, but typically only £20 at most because the only place that I use regularly that now insists on it is the local chippy, so it's not going to be applicable to any major purchases.

As for car parking, card only (plus app) is probably the sensible option, as there's no risk of the machine being smashed up to steal the takings and you don't have to go and empty it each day, and the number of drivers who don't have a card of some kind is pretty close to zero, even if they might prefer to use cash.

I'm not saying card payments are free. Just that the cost difference to retailers between cash/card is (on average) minimal.

You have fixed charges just to have a card machine, but the more £ you put through it the better the individual transaction fees. 

Also debit/credit cards charge differently. With low value transactions credit is better as you are charged a percentage - with high value debit wins as it's a flat fee.

I'm totally against businesses going card only, but saving money on fees is not a good argument for remaining cash only. Don't forget it's easy (especially at a bakery) for staff to pocket cash and not ring the sale though the till, you could comfortably subsidize your wages by maybe £10/day at a busy shop from stealing off your employer.

I suspect the charges will come down over time due to political pressure (what actual value is added that costs 2-5%). In the meantime, all those complaining small businesses I've seen in the media offer electronic payment and cash services but prefer the latter and usually give actual figures as to why. I'd add it would be pretty dumb to be a media focus if involved in tax fraud. The increased use of cash in hard times is real and 2% of adults in the UK don't even have a bank account.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/over-1-million-people-dont-have-a-current-account...

I think Jenny is correct in highlighting potential costs but clearly the calculation vary a lot by business. Maybe if profits after pay are very low, and wholesale purchases are using cash, periods between bank cash transfers might be longer. As for occasional business insurance on my car (in my case for placement visits and driving between sites) it never cost me anything extra.

I wouldn't accuse every business of that, but there's certainly a distinct possibility that a business insisting on cash does so because not everything goes through the books, particularly if they pay staff in cash.

Certainly if a builder or similar offers a cash discount it's because they're evading VAT.

Depends on the insurer, but for most office type jobs Business Class 1 is either free or a tiny uplift.  For some other jobs it'll cost a packet - it depends on the likely nature of the car use.  For instance it can I believe be quite difficult to get it for media (specifically TV) related jobs because of the risk of a celebrity being involved in a claim.

I can't get business car insurance, because I'm a named driver in my husband's policy rather than the policy owner. But yes you're right that that the cost depends on your job and what vehicle you drive - but the employer is obliged to ensure that you are fully insured if using the vehicle for work use.

As for not declaring cash sales, yes some businesses may be defrauding the system. But actually I was thinking more about individual employees stealing off their employer, this is especially easy if you have a business that doesn't sell physical stock or that has a high level of daily wastage.

That's Business Class 2, it covers the policyholder and named drivers (sometimes only specified ones).  Class 1 only covers the policyholder.

It all gets horribly complicated though if you are insured on a commercial policy (van), but working for a different business to the policy holder. 

I'm guessing though that in most small businesses having staff with a car is not a requirement when recruiting. In which case, even if it's only a small extra charge, why should I as an employee be expected to pay this for me employers benefit?

A quite incredible amount of infrastructure and huge number of highly-skilled people working in a tightly regulated environment goes on behind the scenes 24/7  to make something as seemingly innocuous as a contactless payment tap happen. It may seem trivial on the face of it but people just take for granted how complex and costly those systems are. 

Card machines don't need a mobile connection.

It's completely possible to use a landline (dial up or broadband), which is something that most permanent premises already have so don't incur any additional costs. OK you miss out on using cordless terminals, but a pub restaurant we frequently use gets round this by asking you to pay at the till, which is no big deal.

It costs us more to pay in cash at the bank than to accept card payments, plus having closed all our 'local' branches, it's quite a trip to find an actual bank to pay cash into.

If the card services provider find you doing this, you're in trouble! We found out this the hard way some years ago! Your contract usually says that you must accept all payments and may not discriminate on card type or amount.

For me it cost an extra 20% to add Business Class 1 to my policy. My car was to be used to drive to the local Post Office at the end of each day. Luckily my employer paid the extra as he'd asked me to add it on.

Perfectly possible, I'd suspect normal, for a cordless card terminal to use local WiFi rather than a mobile network signal, so no reason to even miss out on that as long as the business has an internet connection of some sort. Businesses that don't have reliable mobile signal on any network and also don't have any other kind of internet must be an extraordinarily tiny minority these days.

It's certainly not normal for the last few card terminals we've had, they've been mobile data only. Buried within the menus/settings are wifi options, but we were told these were not enabled and we couldn't connect it to our wifi! Using our card machine here frequently involves standing on one leg and holding it up at the right angle to divine a signal (despite the unit usually showing signal strength of 4 bars!)!

ETA I also got my 'wrists slapped' for delving into the settings when I shouldn't have, apparently!

If you look at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66796263 , it's hardly a threatening resurgence. Cash is a relic.

If you think the answer to this is resuscitating bits of metal and paper, you are solving the wrong problem.

In any case, the authority that puts up "DO NOT LEAVE VALUABLES IN YOUR CAR" signs probably shouldn't be relying on the people parking under them having a pot of gold in the glove box. Maybe when it was one or two coins to park it was acceptable but those days are long gone.

The 45p per mile HMRC mileage rate is intended to include an element for stuff like this, though it could probably do with being bumped up a bit now.

Well, my permit arrived within 2 days of ordering. Seems an eminently reasonable deal (particularly as not linked to a car reg) and saves a lot of faff. 

Is there a database anywhere of which carparks in the national park are operated by whom? Trying to work out if these passes are worthwhile!

Getting to be an expensive place to visit, since it's already costing me a tenner to drive the van through Sheffield on my way to the Peak. It's frustrating, particularly since it never seems that the money these things generate is put towards further reducing the need for cars/vans - i.e. improving public transport in the area. If I knew I could drive somewhere north of Sheffield (I live in West Yorkshire), and pay £5 for a return park and ride to the Peak, with frequent and reliable services, I'd do that. Then I wouldn't be driving my van through a polluted city centre or taking up parking spaces in a crowded national park. But of course that won't be on the cards. I'll still drive my van through the city and add to the pollution and take up space in the park, but I'll pay £15/£20 for the privilege and see no related benefit in return. Maybe it'll put off some people with less disposable income and reduce pollution / free up space that way? What a great idea.

In the meantime how about you drive somewhere North of Sheffield, and then drive to Stanage?  That'll save you a tenner, there's no need to drive through the CAZ.

The PDNPA car parks page lists all car parks in the national park, including those run by other organisations, and tells you who runs each one.

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/visiting/planning-your-visit/parking/parkin...

The map only shows locations of their own car parks though, so for all the others you need to know the name so you can find them on the list!

Yes I’ve done that a couple of times, but it’s a good half hour each way on the journey so usually I pay for the convenience. I guess the CAZ has effectively reduced some of my journeys, or at least moved the pollution further into the countryside. Is that a success? It’s reduced city centre pollution. A park and ride would eliminate the pollution from several vehicles at a time