UKC

Hi guys, looking for some clarification pls.  Off to America and Canada for hols with some climbing - Squamish and maybe Cascades.  Recently joined AAC UK, but in their literature it seems there’s no 3rd party cover outside of Europe (I presume my BMC membership will give me this?) and more worryingly in the states no legal expenses cover. 

Ive emailed AAC UK and just got an unhelpful reply saying they know nothing and I’ll have to contact their insurers - Knox in Germany - which I’ve done without a reply.  I’ve also emailed BMC’s insurers but again no reply as yet. 

Flying this Saturday, so a little twitchy at this stage. Anyone got any experience or knowledge to help?  

Cheers, Rog 

Personally I don't think the amount covered by AAC (let alone the exclusions) is sufficient for the USA, so when I go there I always take out BMC insurance.

I dont think the AAC is really designed for the USA as the amounts you're covered for will barely cover the cost of an ambulance over there! (Allthough do the AAC now do expedition insurance which may be suitable?)

Its my understanding theres a reason the AAC is so cheep, its there to cover rescue in the alps and not much more.

AFAIK it covers rescue from 'the wilderness' pretty much anywhere in europe - this is pretty important as most european countries don't have a voluntary rescue service so if you injure yourself anywhere where a regular ambulance can't reasonably get to, you're going to get a bill.

Living in Spain, for years I never bothered getting any sort of insurance until they erected a big sign at my local crag (which is only a 10 min walk from the road), saying that if you are not 'federated' (i.e. associated with a club that provides rescue insurance to its members) you will charged for rescue if something happened. I joined the AAC sharpish after that.

edit: to the OP, I would not rely on basic AAC for the states, I would probably fork up and get some specialist cover from the BMC (or similar) for the duration of your trip.

Hi

All the details of the combined liability insurance that comes with BMC membership are here on the insurers mini-site:

http://www.bmc-insurance-centre.co.uk/

Check out the policy: 

http://www.bmc-insurance-centre.co.uk/uploads/documents/bmc-insurance-centr...

This says that "Cover is applicable worldwide, subject to the exclusion of any legal action brought against the insured in a court of Law within the USA/Canada. This does not mean that activities in the USA/Canada are excluded, simply that legal actions brought in the USA/Canada are excluded."

If you need any more info, give the BMC membership team a ring on 0161 445 6111. 

Cheers

AAC is good, indeed having just recently had to call on their services, I would say very good but it is worth bearing in mind that it is for rescue and repatriation only.  Any added expenditure that you incur, flights, extended accommodation, lost kit etc. will not be covered.  I would go BMC for anywhere other than Europe.

Al

Roger - I've been through all the AAC possibilities including the very reasonably priced "top-up" policy that is available directly though Knox in Austria, increasing hospital fee cover to €500,000. I use that for my Morocco trips.

As others have implied even that might not be adequate for North America and when going there I insure myself through Sportscover Direct. Being in my seventies I can't possibly afford BMC or Snowcard once they've added their age loading which can triple the price.

If you want the lowdown on the top-up insurance drop me an email on mart10ben@gmail.com. As you've discovered the London AAC office is not very helpful.

Thanks for your replies chaps.  I’ve just returned thankfully without needing to make any calls for assistance.    Before I went I did manage to resolve some confusion with the BMC 3rd party insurance by calling their insurers directly - they assured me that providing I don’t have assets in the US then I’d be pursued in Europe and there I’m covered. 

I had conversations with some native climbers in the Cascades who said that SAR - inc helicopter rescue wouldn’t be charged.  SAR being voluntary and the air evac being good military training.  Pretty sure that’s not the case in Yosemite. 

To quote what the BMC told me on the phone when I queried the high premiums: we’ll happily let our competitors take the risk for North America.   Good to know they are negotiating hard with their insurers to cover our backs at a fair price, eh?  

This tallies with my own experience. I have been left with the distinct impression the BMC scheme seems happiest  cherry picking the low risk clients and, while they will insure more problematic cases if they must, their premiums are pitched so high it effectively prices them out of the market. When I was young and fit they cheerfully took my money at competitive rates but once I developed a heart condition their premiums shot up to much more than anyone else. At one stage they actually refused to insure me at all despite no change in my circumstances (other than being a year older but it was  not what I would have expected to be a threshold year - maybe 62 or 63). TBF I was eventually told this had been 'an unfortunate mistake' and they would insure me after all but by then I had organised cover elsewhere.

I also get the impression the BMC itself is not overly worried if some members cannot get reasonably-priced insurance. They seem happy to take the introduction fee/commission/whatever for the ones the underwriters accept and shrug off any problems as 'a commercial matter for the underwriters'. That is a very different attitude to that of the AAC whose cover, though limited, is universal and an important factor in my own disillusionment with the BMC as an organisation acting on behalf of all climbers.  I currently have AAC for rescue and a 'civilian' policy to cover general problems like cancellation, lost luggage etc etc

Yet their cover, though more expensive, is adequate for the USA (unlike AAC and others). Seems odd!

Exactly... looks like exaggerated bs to me. The increasing cost risks in the US are real and some of the competitors maybe are leaving themselves exposed or their loss adjusters mean the service isn't what the customers expect it to be. I'd rather pay a bit extra for insurance I trust, like anyone sensible with assets facing those US medical costs if you are unlucky and require serious medical treatment.

Can I just add the suggestion that people check their household insurance policies as these can often provide useful overlap with outdoor and foreign trips? They may offer more than just coverage for burglary, flood and fire etc.

I’m not into BS.  Verbatim quote.  TBF, it looks like Snowcard are adopting the same policy.  Insurance is gambling nothing more, so a few large pay outs will cause the bookies to adjust the odds.   AAC aren’t true competitors in the sense that you’re not buying specific trip insurance.   

What annoyed me the most was that while North America is a suburb destination for any climber and so a justly popular one, I had to work quite hard to research the issue.  There were many ums and ahs from initial contacts at both BMC and their insurers.  

The BMC, in my opinion, would better serve its many members by doing some serious research such that it can proudly announce they either can directly offer the best comprehensive insurance for America or point is all in the right direction.  There is a clear conflict of interest at the moment between serving the membership and the trade rules for making a profit of caveat emptor.  

Maybe what they meant is that their competitors can accept the risk of undercharging for US insurance.

SAR in Yosemite and all  other National Parks in the US is no charge.

I still think its BS, based on a tired response when an applicant tries to haggle over the phone. The standard policy system is simple: the policy price is formula driven (with occasional fixed discounts for all). Hence all this so called umming and ahhing is nonsense. SAR is also free in Yosemite despite his views that it is not.

3rd party cover on US accidents just from BMC membership is a more complex question and I'm pleasantly surprised if we are covered for that (even though I would always have additional insurance in the US).

I use BMC insurance as its reasonably competitive with other policies I'd trust (and is the most trustworthy... as demonstrated by the Dolomites rescue discussed on UKC a few years back) and because it supports the BMC brand and the BMC makes money out of it to put into its good work. Sadly US insurance prices have increased significantly in recent years and so any cheap policies will be facing stringent loss adjustment to survive commercially... it's a simple fact of how the industry works. BMC are competitive for people who want hassle free cover sympathetic to mountaineers. The Austrian Alpine Club top-up simply isn't enough for the US medical cover needed.

I don’t see why it should BS, doesn't seem unreasonable BMC insurers might price it so they don’t attract too many punters, rather than judging what is the correct premium for the risk. 

Whatever happened about that Dolomites claim that the BMC insurers initially turned down?  

One of the reasons why I like dislike BMC insurance is that it's not easy trying to work out what is covered – the links provided by the BMC above for the members liability cover go round in a loop, with two summaries of cover by the brokers Howden and the BMC,  which are slightly differing (such as for cycling as a secondary activity). There is also a link to some incomprehensible Hiscox general liability policy wording, which doesn’t even appear to mention climbing let alone cycling!

In addition there are the separate BMC travel policies, with another insurer, different liability cover wording, and a bizarre list of activities covered and not covered dependent on which level of cover you go for.

Those making the decisions would almost certainly not talk over the phone that way... hence BS or just fed up with a painful potential customer trying to haggle. What you say is pricing to not get too many punters could easily be said to looking at the risk and pricing correctly for the market. It's just semantics. Snowcard US prices are similar.. another policy I would trust. I'm not the only one still using BMC insurance for climbing in the US, despite increasd costs in the last few years: we do this for good reasons ( US medical costs have spiralled in their broken healthcare system). The information you provide goes in a formula and the price pops out ... you simply can't haggle but you can change what and when you want cover for to reduce the price by reducing your insured risk.

The climbers on the dolomites contacted the BMC and got their money in the end according to the thread.

If you look at small print on any policy its often confusing. I'd concede the BMC website is certainly below par at present and needs improvement. What's good about the BMC is you can phone them and discuss what you need and trust what they say (at least in my experience).

quote for 1 week US ice trip - £241.86 BMC ,  £112.75 Snowcard?

which thread?

I think you may be a bit naive there. Anyone who has ever been asked to quote for a job will be familiar with the situation where you simply don't want it but rather than turn it down flat and perhaps  p1ss off a client you pitch your price sufficiently over the odds to ensure they go  elsewhere and you've dodged the bullet. I've no way of knowing if that's what the underwriters are doing but the BMC quote I got was certainly stupidly expensive compared to the insurance I got by combining AAC and a household name major company

Was the level of cover for the potentially bankrupting eventualities comparable though?  Likewise for the other poster and Snowcard?

Mine was for rock climbing in Europe.

I've never ice climbed in the US although I suspect that difference might be due to snowboarding accident claims on the same BMC policy level.  The  examples I saw that were similar were US rock/ big wall. No one forces you to take the BMC policy so I fail to see what the problem is.

Couldn't find the thread (maybe zapped) but I found this forthright comment from Andy:

"Andy Say -  on 22 Dec 2014

In reply to Merlin: 

Thought I should expand on my suggestion that you are talking utter crap..

The original rescue - if I have it right - was for a couple of Brits who got benighted on a dolomites face. Rescue team logged it as a 'non-emergency'rescue. BMC insurance underwriters refused to pay out on that basis. 'Not an Emergency' so not covered.
THEN BMC supported a claim to the insurance ombudsman, AGAINST their own insurers, by the 'rescuees' and have since dumped their underwriters on the basis that they want good quality cover for their members.
'Ditched by the BMC'?
Pillock."

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpine/aac_insurance_question-...

I am only querying whether things you are stating are quite right!  You say BMC and Snowcard charge similar for US, but on looking at just one random example,  BMC more than twice the price (and exclude snowboarding).  You say go with the BMC as their policy is  “the most trustworthy” - look how they dealt with the so and so claim, but their insurers turned that one down!  BMC might have changed insurers/wording but it still looks like a bit of a bastardized general travel policy so possible opportunities for insurers not to pay. 

I fail to see what more the  BMC could have done to help the claim. Supporting claimants that the Insurance company rejected is pretty much as trustworthy a brand defence as I've seen in any insurance situation.