UKC

Last Sunday/Monday I had a nice "run" (hah !) from the Northern Corries ski road down to Invercauld bridge taking in a half-dozen summits and a wee overnight on Beinn a Bhuird. Bit wet at times but a nice line on the map and step up for my ambitions. 

Saturday evening family and I stopped at a place not far along from Glenmore Lodge in the hope of some food. I think it's fairly well-known establishment. Unpretentious, potentially cosy. 

My wife took our food orders to the bar. I'm coeliac; I choose one of the 4-5 gluten free options marked up on the menu. First wasn't available. No problem, gave my second preference but actually any of the options will be fine. Off she went. 

I'm not someone who goes in and audits the kitchen for cross-contamination, interviews the cook, reviews the ingredients list. Sympathy to those with anaphylaxis. My wife is similarly calm and in her professional life sees members of the general public in short appointments and from time to time has to give life-changing news; she's got some social skills. 

"I'm not cooking for coeliacs" was bawled from the kitchen. So we left. Drinks unpaid. 

My childhood was in a nice bit of Surrey. I'm ~70kg. So before I left I did tell the curly-haired greaseball who professed to be cook that he might consider taking the wheelchair ramp out of the place to keep up with his "being a dick" theme, but in retrospect perhaps I should have braved up, broken with my mild-mannered nature and poured my pint over him, or had it slip out of my hand so his kitchen floor was covered in broken glass and liquid. 

My son summed it up. "Don't worry Dad. Just leave him a bad review. It's what we do nowadays." 

So a couple of Glenmore Lodge folk, and someone at Laggan Wolftrax, and one or two others in Aviemore, have heard the story and now you have too. 

Now if you're GF in Braemar, the chipper in the middle (name is a pun on Plaice) is in new ownership and had no GF options marked up on the menu or anything at all. But they were delighted to cook a very nice haddock and chips, rice flour batter, no gluten in the fryer at all, as a matter of course - they know all about it and are on top of it. They just simply haven't marked up the menu... 

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It would be useful to name the place involved.

Yeah, wondered about that. 

I assume UKC management get into an awkward position if I name a business I'm bad-mouthing, and likely pull the thread. If that's not the case, I'll name it. Happy to do that on DMs if worthwhile. 

I think it's hard to mistake it - not too many choices on the Glen More road. But if there's doubt and I might be doing down someone else's business, I'll make sure it's clear who it's not; obviously it's not Glenmore Lodge, who've looked after me well. 

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Braemar "The Plaice To Be" - recommended. Unless you can afford the Fife Arms Hotel, which has changed a bit lately... 

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Regardless of my level of annoyance, I'm not sure I'd admit to theft on a public forum.

Relevance?

I assumed he meant the drinks had been poured but not touched. Just left sitting on the bar, in which case it won't have been theft. 

There was a time and a culture in climbing where the cook might have faced a physical remonstration. I'm not the man and it's not the era. 

Wise advice. I'm told the bar staff was as horrified by the cook's response as my wife was, so I believe we may have their active connivance and support in the act. 

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Probably wise. I once had a post removed as I told a story about an experience a friend of mine had with  known actor (whom has now been cancelled due to multiple accusations of sexual assault) as it was “potentially libellous”.  Pretty sure that not how libel laws work, but there you go. 

I will of course respect the moderator’s wishes on the matter. 

And besides I thought he was outstanding in American Beauty and indeed House of Cards, and so I shall not repeat the story.
 

Sounds a bit like hearsay.  The OP telling a true story about trying to get a bite to eat in a pub isn't, nor is it 'badmouthing' that establishment if it's just a factual account of events.

The chances of getting dragged into a libel case over a poor review for a pub are rather less than for a second-hand account of sexual impropriety on the part of a famous actor I'd have thought, even if those allegations did eventually turn out to be likely true.

It’s either going to be Cobbs which I’ve always found ok and the Pine Martin which is ok for a beer at night but has been a disaster area for a cafe for a long time. I’m up there a lot and although I’m not celiac I have friends who are and I’m not minded to give custom to places like you describe.

Of course it wasn't theft.  Even if they'd taken a swig.  The OP entered into an implied contract to order drinks and food, and pay for the order after it was taken.  The pub handed over the drinks and, at some point shortly afterwards, told the OP that contrary to expectations they couldn't have any food.  It was the pub that failed to fulfil that contract and they can't reasonably expect to be paid.

I doubt he or his lawyers come in here much. They’ve got rather more on their plate than to go around trying to sue anonymous users on niche hobby internet forums.

Even if they did, which is ludicrously unlikely, it would be me they sue, not UKC.

Interesting. So the transaction of sale is only complete at the moment you sip from the glass? I assumed the sale was complete at the point of pouring.

It wasn't Cobbs - I wasn't aware of Cobbs or I wouldn't have left that open to doubt. 

Nor was it the Scottish Wildcat, Red Squirrel or Crested Tit. Or Spruce Beaver. 

Sounds like I could have learned from your view. I hope to go in there for Bynack More soon because I have a hankering to see the Barns (our sports don't have to be rational, right ?) but otherwise, if ski tour conditions come right, it'll be Feshie or the Loch Nan Eun hills and not much else down that road... mebbe. 

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Surely they had entered only into one verbal agreement when they ordered the drinks, and that the ordering of the food is a separate contract with independent terms?

I very much doubt that the OP had stipulated in the verbal contract that existed between them that the renumeration for the drinks was dependent on the availability of food items meeting his dietary requirements, and thus both the ordering of the food and drinks relied upon both parts of the contract to be satisfied before the monies was proffered, and the contract settled. 

Had this been the case then it would follow that if the publican would have taken on the risk of part fulfilment prior to the discussion of requirements it would be their responsibility to take on the cost of part fulfilment.

That said, given the serious nature of coeliac disease, and the establishment’s failure to offer sustenance of a suitable range to meet the OPs requirements, it is unreasonable to suggest the OP is at fault. Indeed the publican may feel aggrieved at the loss, but after the verbal assault on the OP (my client) said chef should feel blessed that they have not sought medical assistance to remove said receptacle (it being a pint glass) from a place for which the sun does indeed, not shine.

Oh dear, and they say the Lynch mob is dead, not on UKC it would seem not.

We do not know what precipitated the outrageous out burst from the chef, it could be they are a git, or maybe suffering a psychological breakdown, or possibly suffered a bereavement, or any of a hundred things.
What would be a more proportionate response would have been to, just forget it, move on, or a letter, the pen and ink kind to the owners. But a deliberate attempt to ruin a business, which the chef may have no financial interest in, is not very nice. And that 20+ UKC voyeurs chose to support you speaks ill of them.
Possibly the person who owns the business and maybe has their house on the line for it, has no idea about this, or is just struggling to get a chef of any kind, there is a shortage, to keep the business above water, and this is the least worst option.
Very poor.

Write a letter?  Are you for real?  

Dunno what century you think it is, but if you run a pub, or work in any kind of hospitality business, and are rude to a guest with dietary requirements a poor review online is to be expected.

I think he’s done them a favour by not naming them to be honest. I would have absolutely done so.

I think you are living in the wrong century there. Perhaps tripadviser hasn't arrived in Scotland yet but for the rest of the world running a restaurant comes with an understanding that  poor service is going to be called out on the internet and stay there for ever more. You might not like it but thats how it works now.

Well, they are points of view worth brief consideration.

A few logic-holes in your argument - if the bar staff are horrified by the chef, the chef is acting as he is, and proud to do it in public despite the offer on the menu, then I doubt I'm the guy that tips the operation into the mire. 

I'm not unimaginative about the circumstances the chef or owner may have faced. Equally you don't know (much) about what I've faced in my time. Evidently my life experiences are different from yours, and do unfortunately include a few instances of being badly treated by "hospitality" businesses so I'm perfectly content to reject the judgement you've handed down. 

As noted above, I would name the place if confident it wasn't messing on UKC's rules. 

I'll update the thread if I get a response from the business. 

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They were advertising for a new chef the other day.

Looks like the chef at the said establishment left recently according to their Facebook page. So potentially you caught them at a difficult time, and although that doesn't excuse their behaviour, it might be worth giving them another chance. 

As a fellow coeliac I’d rather have an ignorant chef behave like that than cook quietly for me with food contaminated with gluten. Just a thought

Tricky one. Does having the pint put on the bar in front of you amount to appropriation? I think no, so no theft and as others say, not even a breach of contract.

Just leave your review on TripAdvisor or wherever and link it here?

Thanks. I don't object to going back, perhaps with a Plan B in mind. Anyway worth knowing - although I obviously got my chance to vent here, I did actually have it in mind that...

- it's useful for coeliacs, and those in their party, and other people with dietary challenges, and other people who like to see a little bit of equity in this world, to know there's a "popular" place where they might not be as welcome as they could hope

- I get to call out a couple of good things - the Plaice place in Braemar, the Italian at the roundabout in Aviemore that's twice done me a takeaway gf carbonara of huge quality and quantity, the Real Food Cafe in Tyndrum...

- those "Voyeurs" on UKC who actually have valuable things to add... you never know quite what, but sure enough...

Go well, 

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Only this country/culture would tolerate "an ignorant chef." Professional pride ? 

I mean you're not wrong, of course, but jeez. 

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Did you get coelocanth and chips from the chippy? The legs are a delicacy. 😁

Oi. I object. You assume Godwin’s ignorance of Tripadvisor (sp) to be linked to Scotland in some way. 

I’m not condoning ignorance, just saying from a selfish perspective I’d rather have someone tell me they’re not catering for me than them be polite trying to be helpful and contaminate me. Spent too much time being seriously unwell because of the latter.

Happened to me once; family holiday in France back in the 80 when I was a kid.  Asked for my steak well done and some raised voices were heard when the waiter got to the kitchen.  Then asking the waiter for ketchup led to a very angry French chef coming out and unleashing a tirade of incomprehensible abuse at me.

Mind you, turns out he was probably right about how to cook and eat a steak, looking back…

Now 35. That’ll keep you busy letter writing for a while…

Out of curiosity, how much of a 'minority dietary subset' do you think is fair / realistic for your average eatery to cater for?

I'm not saying what that place did was correct, clearly far from it, but coeliac sufferers seem to make up about 1-2% of the UK population, if Google is correct. Where do you personally feel is appropriate for these establishments to draw the line by not catering to real 'minority diets'?

There is absolutely no requirement for any such establishment to cater for any particular dietary need. Full stop. (Of course, it might be beneficial to their business if they do. But, as long as they're clear about what they are offering, then fair enough.)

In the current case, since they advertised gluten free dishes, then something has gone badly wrong if they have subsequently refused to provide them.

A fair question - after all there’s very little that’s someone somewhere isn’t allergic to (someone was telling me they asked for a bag of nuts in a pub and were told they’ve stopped selling them as “people are allergic) and added to that there are religious and cultural requirements.

But, for me (and I’d guess same for the OP, but he can speak for himself) it’s not that the place didn’t have anything available, even after advertising they did, it’s the chef’s outraged response to the request.

I fancy if they politely apologised, explained that they’re between chefs (as it seems they are) and perhaps helped by suggesting somewhere else nearby, the OP wouldn’t have had an issue.

I’d hazard that he probably would probably have paid for and drank his pint too!

“It ain’t what you do, it’s the way that you do it”

This.  If you don't want to cater for gluten free diets, don't put gluten free items on the menu, you don't have to!

The mind boggles as to why you would put something on a menu that you didn't intend anyone to order!

They mixed up whitebait and clickbait 

Yes, understood and fully agreed. My question was intended to be more of a general one really,  not related to, but more prompted by, the OP. I'm able to eat most things but I know a lot of people aren't, including my wife, so I was wondering where a reasonable range of food on offer might stop.

Cobs is ace. I once had the best Breakfast Experience of my life in Cobs. Cobs can do no wrong.

The Pine Martin, on the other hand, once gave me a terrible case of gut rot that almost ruined an entire trip to the Cairngorms.

Gotcha. All good.

Living with someone who is both milk‑allergic (not just intolerant – which can be usually solved by a few lactase enzyme tablets before the meal itself – but plain allergic not just to the lactose sugars, but the milk proteins  themselves), actually gluten‑allergic and also allergic to alpha‑galactose in most red meats (look up alpha‑gal syndrome from ticks, it's apparently getting a hold even in Europe now), I'd be pretty careful about dining out in a place where the chef is clearly a condescending dickhead.

There is a recent US court case against Disney where a woman actually died from anaphylactic shock after getting some crustacean or peanut parts in her food in one of their restaurants, even after telling the restaurant staff of her allergy. It doesn't take much with some allergies to get you into anaphylaxis.

That chef the OP mentioned there was just a total arsehole.

The EU regs thankfully require all the possible allergens to be stated on the menu, but cross‑contamination with idiots in the kitchen is still a potential problem.

Interesting in its own way but irrelevant to the question I asked. So just to simplify it further: how far is it reasonable to expect a place/ company/ organisation to go to, to accommodate a specific minority?

PRET are pretty good at killing off people with allergies

Next people will want disabled access, the bastards

Indeed, a well done steak (cooked properly) should be complemented with wholegrain mustard, not ketchup.  Unless you happen to have the same taste as Donald Trump, who famously loves lots of  ketchup 

If they want our business, they better accommodate our specific requests. It's that simple. Given that actual allergic people who might be not just inconvenienced, but dead by their actions (or the lack off) might be the result, I'd presume most such joints would adhere to it. Of course, nothing really stops you from advertising your fish & chips joint of using actual fish and actual oil if people were allergic to fish & chips, would it – you just have to mark it up properly.

Good God, that’s sacrilege. How much must you hate steak to put that boak on it. 

I’m genuinely perturbed. I didn’t realise such heresy existed.

There are legal requirements for accessibility to premises (see e.g. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/accessibility-of-shops-and-businesses-...) but, pretty obviously, there is no law which says that any particular business must sell any particular thing.

And, specifically, there is no requirement that a restaurant must sell meals suitable for all possible dietary requirements.

So your question relates purely to business decisions.

What is your own opinion on your question here?

Ahem, the restaurant in question actually advertised allergen‑free meals in their menu, FWIW. Yet failed to deliver them in a frankly very derogatory manner. At least if the OP is to be believed, which I am inclined to.

I haven't disputed any of that. Perhaps you should reread what I have written.

My aplogies if I mis‑quoted there.

Hah, I've spent the last 40 years designing buildings with disabled users in mind so I'm more than familiar with the relevant regulations. 😉 What I was hoping to do was open a debate on the moral issue of catering for a small minority. There's obviously no legal requirement for such. 

It would depend on the size of the premises I suppose ie. how many covers you're catering for. Less than say 30-40 and I'd think catering for <1% of your potential clientele is approaching borderline. Unless of course you're specifically targeting them. I'll confess I don't know what the financial implications would be for a catering outlet to do so.  If it's a 'zero cost uplift' issue then that's a different story. 

(Not my Dislike on your post incidentally.)

Absolutely. Me too. 

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My wife had a similar experience in France. She wasn't feeling very well, so declined a glass of wine, asking for water instead. She then declined a main course, and asked just for frites. When the waitress brought them, she looked at my wife with total disdain and asked 'would madame like tomato ketchup with those...'

Actually, I have reflected on your question. 

I called the Spruce Beaver out in this thread because it was exceptional, and because it's likely relevant to UKC outdoorsy folk. In fact - reread my OP to check, if you care - while I have strong views on what ought to be reasonable, I am very wary and careful not to come across as militant in actual interactions with businesses that aren't hopeless, because I don't think it advances the cause. 

So, to your question. I think the numbers are between 1 in 50 and 1 in 100, but that's what... people in W/Europe who would be diagnosed Coeliac if tested ? Lots of underfunded research, lots of underdiagnosis, lots of associated intolerance, I'm not the last word on this. 

People do turn up alone to eat, but not often. Get a statistician to help, but I think you'll find (as already in this thread) that the number of parties containing a coeliac will be greater than the underlying rate. "Bob can't eat, but the rest of us will." I could have my maths wrong on this. In a way it doesn't matter. In Austria or Spain you'll often be handed a chart showing which recipes contain all the troublesome ingredients including lupins or mustard - I know nothing about lupins, but perhaps they're down at the 1:500 level. Don't care - I'll make common cause with them, because...

How hard is it for a "hospitality" business (I don't call them that - that's their word) to have two or one dishes on their menu that contain no gluten, no mustard, no lupin ? The answer - I do know this, I'm sufficiently foody - not very. It need not bump up cost (despite the monstrous cost of gf baked goods.) Potatos, rice, maize - not costly or troublesome carbohydrates, right ? 

I'm not talking anaphylaxis. That's different. I actually have sympathy with catering establishments around that, because folk with that drop down on the spot or shortly afterwards, two tragic deaths in the last five years associated with Pret and Costa. On the other hand, black humour, that does come across as attention-seeking compared with us folk who eat and go home feeling something's not right, then lose two nights of our lives and perhaps two years at the ends of our lives (no-one knows) groaning, unable to go climbing but also unable to demonstrate a causal link and go back and get justice. 

So in short - why should a catering business not be able to cater to an obligate minority (I'm not vegan - that's discretionary) by having a single dish on offer and the willingness to cook it ? 

Other countries manage it. A lot of UK businesses do too. 

Alternatively, we can take out the wheelchair ramps. Perhaps a few years after that's been done we can enforce sterilisation of folk who aren't, you know, Ubermensch ? 

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Part of the enjoyment of France is these type of issues!It plays to a stereotype of them not giving a ~~~.

Life would be so boring without these little incidents!

You should laugh and enjoy them.

Dead right. It isn't rocket science. It's maybe a minimum standard of human behaviour ? 

Equally I would be very wary about relying on the standards at places like PRET at a busy airport etc. I do laugh to myself when I see coffee shops wiping the nozels on Barista machines with the same old damp J cloth as if that is indicative of good hygeine standards.These places for the most part are not glowing example of following procedures and if I had a serious allergy then I would be avoiding them at all costs.Its just not worth the risk in the end, no matter what we think of in respect of  complying with the law etc on these things.

Update: the maths is not difficult. 

Assuming 1 in 50, party of four people. First person has a 2% chance of affliction OR second person has 2% chance OR third OR fourth likewise - OR is additive. So for a party of 4 there becomes an 8% chance that "We'll eat. Bob can watch."

OK, in real life, perhaps it's 1 in 100, and half your covers are in couples. So maybe you're only having one or two parties per evening thinking you're really not trying very hard to do something that is pretty easy. Not totally trivial - but not hard or costly. 

Thanks for getting me to think it through. Remind me why it is I typically treat such places with a calm and encouraging approach ? 

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It isn't, but you've got it wrong!  You want 1-(98/100)^4

Agree about the method but it's 7.76% which of course will round up to 8%

AND, not OR.  Implications covered by the above posts.

The key quantity is the probability of no people being afflicted,

Laugh away but wiping the steam nozzle with a damp j cloth, then giving it a spurt of steam afterwards is how it’s down the world over.

From Pret airport prets to high end independent coffee shops I’ve never seen it done any differently.  

You’d prefer them to use a new cloth each time?
 

 Just because it’s the same the world over does not mean it’s right from a cleaning sanitation perspective in what is now an industrial scale food environment. Put it this way if I had a serious allergy I would just look at it and think that is not for me and indicative of other hidden from the eye issues. 
 

And I would prefer a different process which eliminates the need to do that.  

But every single coffee shop in the U.K. will be regularly inspected by local authority environmental health officers, and they will be satisfied that the process is appropriate and sanitary. As indeed they seem to be the world over.

Guess they’re all wrong then?

So what...you could say the same about Grenfell. Its just stepping back and thinking about it and applying that perspective ....if you have an allergy.

Thanks. I suspect A-Level maths may be in my future for a second time in a year or two.... not sure it will go well...

That’s a rather tasteless comparison to draw.

A tragedy in which over 70 people, including children, died in the most horrific circumstances and you’re using it to make a point about how Pret clean the nozzles on their coffee machines?

Get a grip mate.

Not really..it just illustrates how despite inspection standards things happen with dire results.

Not only is it offensive, it’s a terrible comparison which shares barely any facets in common with the issue at hand. 

Offence aside, frankly, you must be rather dim if you think that’s a good point made there.

Just been in there for a couple of pints. . . . Had fish & chips from Aviemore for tea and glad I did as the food offering I saw didn’t look great . . . . The bar service though , was excellent ( maybe you just got them on a bad day ? )

Assuming you’re talking about the conifer mustelid , I’ve had a couple of beers in it in the evening and it was pretty good. As far as the cafe goes, three plus decades of occasional patronage leads me to think that once in a blue moon they might have a vaguely acceptable day.

My daughter has celiac disease, and so I'm used to the stresses of finding something suitable to eat when out and about.

The first thing I would say that, AFAIK, there is no law or any obligation for any establishment to cater to people who cannot eat certain foods (whether it is due to auto-immune diseases, or allergies, or anything else). If a restaurant says that it "doesn't cook for celiacs", then we have to go somewhere else - as frustrating as that may be, it is the choice of the restaurant.

This said, if an establishment does say that it caters to people who can't eat specific foods, they should do so properly. My daughter has had several experiences of eating supposedly "gluten free" dishes that have made her feel ill - whether it was because of cross-contamination, or a lack of understanding from the chef, we don't know. In this case, I would prefer a restaurant to explicitly say "we don't cook for celiacs", than risk an upset tummy and difficult afternoon.

Of course, there are establishments than are fully aware of the issues and take great care to ensure that their food is prepared correctly (shout out to chains such as Pizza Express who make a big deal about the fact that their GF pizzas are prepared in a separate area of the kitchen etc. etc.)

There has been a rise recently of people who choose not to eat gluten (perhaps for very valid reasons), when they don't have celiac disease. The benefit, for those with the disease, is that the increased buying pressure has led to supermarkets having aisles full of GF food, and many restaurants advertising GF dishes. The downside is that most people who choose not to eat to eat gluten can tolerate trace amounts (or even vast amounts!) in their food, which only confuses chefs and restaurants... and so they end up reacting like the chef in the OP's story.

Well yes. Having been diagnosed nine years ago, and my brother having been diagnosed in 1976 (his first word was "nurse" as it took six weeks in hospital back in the day) I'm familiar with the background. 

I'm aware of a rise of related conditions around gluten, hordein and associated proteins, partly through better diagnosis rates of people who were otherwise suffering cluelessly. There need not be confusion - gluten-free is adquately well defined & certificated for practical purposes - and there is no link to or excuse for boorish, obnoxious, unprofessional behaviour from people who earn a living in kitchens. 

Anaphylaxis, different gig. I can understand anxiety after Pret and Costa. But then, if you go into business doing anything, you take a liability. 

There's no law in the UK. I'm not necessarily in favour of one. We've collaborated in this thread to show why it's probably sound business sense for most places to have a gf offer.

Have you been to Spain ? Italy ? Austria ? Do they have a law, or just culturally a step ahead ? 

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If only I'd known... but there it is. 

I live in Spain. The law here is that you have to have a chart available which shows all the allergens or potential allergens in every dish on your menu. But there is nothing to stop the restaurant ticking all the boxes for all the plates.

To answer your question though, it is marginally easier to eat out with celiac disease in Spain that in the UK; however, UK supermarkets tend to have a better selection of GF food

Unless I’m very much mistaken, the requirements to name potential allergens in each dish is an EU rule?

For some reason the U.K. was able to opt out, however it seems to be in place in all EU countries? Well the ones I’ve visited anyway!

Yes, it's an EU rule. At least for the 14 major allergens listed. Though I thought the same rule was kept in the UK even after Brexit.

On my experience in Spain, business trips, rural and tourism, I would describe gf catering provision as quite a lot easier to access with confidence. Plenty of room for us to differ. 

Try the "Nuria" chain of supermarkets if relevant to you - I understand the CEO's daughter is coeliac and provision is better than others. I haven't noted a significant difference UK/Spanish supermarkets, but I would hesitate to generalise as a lot depends on size. Also times change - I had two trips to France in the last six months (unusual for me) and while that's usually a heartsink, I was pleasantly surprised by supermarkets. 

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In UK, packaged food needs to show all allergens highlighted on the label.

Restaurants need to provide information about allergens for unpackaged food. But this can be:

"verbally or with a written notice placed in a clearly visible position explaining how your customers can obtain this information'

You will probably have noticed a lot of restaurants now ask "has anyone in your group got any allergies/dietary requirements" And/or there should be a notice on the menu or at the order point informing you to inform the establishment of any allergies.

Which leaves the door open to my standard response to the “does anyone have any allergies?” question

“Pollen?” 

Not once has anyone ever been remotely amused, but my commitment to the dad joke cause means I’m duty bound.

A local Londis I tend to grab my lunch from has it's hand made sandwiches from the butchers next door that the franchisee also owns. Twice I have had a pork and stuffing sandwich labelled as a turkey and stuffing. They laughed it off when I mentioned it the next day, not sure a Jewish or Muslim would feel it is a laughing matter. I'm still annoyed at myself for not making a bigger point of it. 

Ouch. I hear you. 

If you (I don't mean you personally) were Jewish and really worried about what "type of meat" then you wouldn't be having any kind of meat sandwich, and if you were even more observant you wouldn't be having any sandwich from there even if it was vegan. For the most observant (*), only sandwiches with Kosher certification would be acceptable.

So although it's not a laughing matter, the chances of upsetting someone who really cares is not as big as might appear.

I presume that observant Muslims would be similar with Halal.

(*) - by observant I mean "requiring a higher level of assurance that what's being eaten is ok; i.e. Kosher", this usually parallels the actual level of religious observance.

People with alpha-gal syndrome might disagree.

Had to look that one up, you learn something new every day (and forget more 😁☹️)

It's not common but potentially becoming more so.

I'm not 100% sure but I think I may have it as I suddenly started having reactions to red meat about 22 years ago but have never had an issue with white meat or fish. Cannibalism would be another option but it's not widely catered for...

I didn’t call you dim because you disagreed with me, I called you dim as you drew a crass, irrelevant comparison.

I shouldn’t have insulted you, but given that I know somebody who was in the building that night, and have seen how she had been affected I was angered by your doubling down on your post.

It’s such an extreme example of irrelevant whataboutery that you may as well have referenced the sinking of the Titanic, the sacking of Rome or perhaps the Great Fire Of London. In fact that probably would have been better they’re not events in living history where you may touch a raw nerve with whom you’re talking to as you have here. 

If you expect me to apologise or regard you as an intelligent man after doubling down on that then you’re going to be disappointed on top of your apparent despair.

As a fellow coeliac, I sympathise with you.  

As a former short-order cook, I know where your man is coming from.  That work will sometimes cause you to think and say uncharitable things towards your fellow human beings.  

Guy was stressed out, having a bad moment, maybe his missus left him for a gluten free baker.  Who knows?  It's off-putting, it's inconvenient, but it's not that big a deal.

Apologies, right you are!  

Remembered that it was someone named Neil who drew the original comparison, saw your message and didn’t scroll up to check it was the same Neil.  Apologies again for that.

And you’re right, I shouldn’t have insulted the bloke, I’ve never been able to keep my mouth shut in the face of provocation.  
 

Hmm, you have not had a job as Chef near Glenmore lodge by any chance 🤔 

Ha!  Thankfully not!