UKC

Hi folks, 

Plan on spending a bit of time close (or further north) to Lleida, Spain over the coming years.

Starting the journey of learning a new language and was wondering if any of you good souls that either have moved there or have been visiting for years, would recommend learning Catalan or Spanish. 

I will occasionally be climbing outside of Catalonia but for the foreseeable plan to focus on climbing there for extended periods of time. 

Many thanks. 

If you don't mind me asking - which part of Lleida will you be based in?

Lived in Tarragona for a few years. The locals generally seemed to speak both languages (or just Spanish), so learning Spanish would be fine and far more useful in other areas.

Depends what you want, for communication, Spanish, to integrate and make friends in the local community, possibly Catalan.
Just think if you moved to a small Village in Wales, English would be fine, but if you learnt Welsh, it would be a real bridgehead into the community. Shows you respect and value the local culture.
I am reliably told a 4 week immersive course is cost effective.

My girlfriend is from a small town near Tarragona, and we live in the UK but I've taken some Catalan classes to try and integrate a bit more with her family. We had a discussion about whether it would be better to learn Spanish or Catalan, and decided Catalan as that's what her family would speak around the dinner table, so I would feel more integrated. This is all somewhat anecdotal, but while Catalans do speak Spanish, for many of them it's treated more like a second language: they will all speak Catalan to each other, so if you approach a group in conversation as a Spanish speaker, they will switch to Spanish so you understand, but it would be a noticeable shift. So if you want to make friends in the local community I think Catalan would be a really good asset to have. 

It's also worth remembering that Catalan isn't just spoken in Catalunya. It's also common in the Balearic Islands, Valencia, Andorra, and some parts of southern France. So if you also plan on visiting those areas for climbing, skiing or whatever, your Catalan knowledge won't be wasted!

Derek brings up the comparison to Welsh, which is an interesting point. I've got the impression walking around the towns and villages there that Catalan is a far more widely-spoken language than Welsh is in Wales. Even in relatively large places like Tarragona, the primary language people will use around town is Catalan, whereas I have the impression that Welsh is only really used as a daily language by a large proportion of the population in quite small villages in Wales. Certainly I've never overheard someone in Cardiff speaking Welsh, but have a few times in Bethesda. Though if anyone Welsh could properly inform me of how widely Welsh is actually spoken, I'd love to find out! 

Well, it’s spoken in Patagonia, if that helps.

I might move to Catalonia in the near to medium term as well, and as I speak French, Catalan would theoretically be easier to learn than Spanish. I will, however, learn Spanish. To learn a language is a huge investment: English took me >1000 hours of study to get to the level where I could converse without premeditation and write somewhat intelligible text. French took about the same time (and I am still pretty bad at writing). To get to near native level in English took me easily above 2000 hours of study even though my native language is closely related to English.

1000 hours is three hours of concentrated study, with two five minutes breaks for coffee, every single day for a year. I am not doing this kind of effort without being absolutely sure that I would have use for the language most of my remaining days regardless of where I end up.

YMMV

Interesting question, it really depends on your personal situation. I'm Catalan, yet I told my wife (Bristish) to learn Spanish as it would be more useful. However, all my family, friends and where we tend to hang out (crags) all speak Catalan, so her Spanish has been useless so far. I'd say in Lleida city or Barcelona, Spanish would be far better, anywhere else in Catalunya, definitely Catalan. And I agree with one of the post above, from my experience, Catalan is far more spoken that say Welsh in Wales. Around my hometown you'd struggle to hear anybody speaking Spanish. But that might change in the future as the language is being eroded by the central government. I hope this helps making a decision. 

Learn spanish. Everybody who speaks catalan will speak spanish, if they are so feather-brain that will only use catalan with you (there are a few of them) you can just walk in the opposite direction.

Also if you learn spanish but you live in Catalunya sooner or later you will learn catalan expressions and can speak some sort of catalanish.

Hi,

I have lived in Catalonia for 15 years, speak fluent Spanish and almost-fluent Catalan. FWIW I grew up bilingual in Wales and still speak Welsh every day with my daughter (who speaks four languages fluently at the age of 9!)

From your original message, I would recommend you learn Spanish first. While most Catalans (especially in the rural areas where you are planning on staying) are more comfortable speaking Catalan than Spanish; all of them speak fluent Spanish, to a higher standard than you will likely ever reach. Very few will feel slighted by a foreigner speaking to them in Spanish - particularly if you drop a phrase or two of Catalan in at the beginning of any conversation.

Spanish is an infinitly more useful language than Catalan, simply because it is spoken by two orders of magnitude (or so) more people. Learning a new language as an adult is not trivial and takes many hours of study and/or immersion.

My advice would be different if you were planning on living in rural Catalonia full time 'forever', or marrying into a Catalan family. I have met several 'foreigners' who have done this and have defaulted to learning Catalan first, as it reflects their daily lives.

My other comment is that if you speak Spanish and end up spending a lot of time hanging around Catalans, you will start to understand Catalan pretty quickly; the languages are very similar and once you get used to the accent and intonation, you pick it up. 

That all said, if you chose to focus on Catalan you would get plenty of brownie points from the locals! 

What an offensive way to make a good point.

If you can only learn one then obviously the answer is Spanish.  I can speak (quite poor) Spanish but never any issues with Catalan speakers (or basque speakers in the Basque Country for that matter) taking issue with the fact that I don’t know any Catalan.  In a ideal world though it would be both.  
 
That said, if you’re going to listen to anybody it should be Ramon.

Or Alun

I'm not going to enter into your voting system, but as others have said, it's worth having a broad enough mind to embrace both languages.

I'm firmly in the 'Català' language camp, because I am married to a lady from Lleida province and have been visiting this region since the late 1980s.

All the family spoke to me in Catalan from the very first day, and I gradually began to pick it up, but people in the streets, when hearing where I was from, automatically assumed I would be more comfortable speaking Castilian (Spanish) than Català, and that's still true today.

I climb and converse with a multitude of different climbers from different parts of Catalunya, as well as having day-to-day encounters with the general public, and I have rarely had problems speaking to them in my imperfect Catalan, even if it’s not their first language.

That said, Spanish (Castilian) would be the sensible choice of learning if you only want to briefly stay in Catalunya.

Pete.

Bit of a divergence from the thread, but Welsh is the main language used in Schools for the majority of North Wales and is spoke as a first language by many.

According to a quick Google 19% of people living in Spain speak Catalan, 29% of people living in Wales speak Welsh.

It is how many who live in Catalunya speak Catalan that is relevant, and I would guess a lot lot more than 19%, it is the official language of the area. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language

When asking Google, you need to ask the correct question.

Having just looked up the relevant populations (Spain 47.5 million, Catalonia 7.5 million), it would appear to be rather more than the population of Catalonia that speak Catalan. 

Also I'm not sure how Catalonia is actually defined. A Catalan friend of mine had a map on her wall with Catalonia coloured red a bit like those old maps of the British Empire. It included a decent chunk of southern France, the Balearics and a bit of Sardinia and quite a bit of what those in Madrid would count as Spain rather than Catalonia.

From memory, at one point in history Catalonia was a large, independent kingdom including much of modern day SE Spain & SW France. Today its 'just' a region of Spain. But the language is spoken outside the region, eg its the national language of Andorra, spoken in the Balearic Iles and, depending on who you speak to, in the region of Valencia (although some claim that's a different langauge - Valencien)

Spain has several autonomous regions, each with its own history and language. The fairer comparison with Wales would be % in Catalonia, not Spain. Or Welsh speakers in the UK.

Welsh will be the first language for many  in North west wales and mid wales. The south coast and the north east less so I think, but it’s definitely not just small villages. Generation and class can be quite a big factor as it’s still not all that long ago that speaking welsh was quite stigmatised and portrayed as a sign of poor education and low status rather than something to be celebrated. It’s growing fast though and Wales is seen as a very good model of how to revive a language. 

Yup, far more widely spoken than just small villages. Less so down south but you'll still here Welsh being spoken in M4 belt towns and cities, but more so in wide parts of the north, mid & west. There's a statutory obligation to offer public services via the medium of Welsh, and people rightly access services in their native tounge.

I thought this was a debate between Spanish and Catalan, not the politics of the Welsh language.

Being Welsh and living between Wales and Catalonia, I know which country I'd rather go to for food and wine!

Thanks for the really informative responses, they really helped to provide clarity. 

Much appreciated.

As a speaker of Spanish and Portuguese I find that I can understand a fair bit of Catalan without ever having studied it. Spanish will also open up most of Latin America to you — hundreds of millions of people.