UKC

Does anyone know if the peg on the first pitch is still there?

Word on the street is that it was removed in the Autumn.

Thanks.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): Haven't done the route as I've been waiting for the peg to be removed but yes its gone, I'm fairly sure Dave Henderson removed it.

P.S. I haven't done it yet because I have been at uni since then!

In reply to dunkymonkey17: Fair old lob potential off the final moves to the belay now then!

In reply to normal12b:

From hazy memory, I thought there was big lob potential even with the peg but that the climbing was really very steady on that pitch. I doubt that the peg's absence will increase the feeling of committment needed.

In reply to GrahamD:

With the peg in place the fall would be ok (providing it held of course). With the peg gone if you took a lob manteling onto the belay ledge, I would think you're looking at a groundfall from that point, or close to it.

Of course, with the peg gone there might now be an alternative micro wire placement in its place.

On balance I would think the pitch and route will be better with the peg gone (I never climbed it pre-peg).

In reply to Phil79:

Analytically you might well be right. Emmotively I just remember feeling that a fall was not really an option.

In reply to GrahamD: I thought the top moves were a bit delicate - did the route with no peg years ago and was quite gripped although we had already been on a couple of harder routes that day. Personally I wouldn't argue with E2 for that pitch with no peg.

In reply to normal12b:
So do I put E2 5a in the topo?

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): Oooooh what topo??? anyway on Javu thegrade hasn't changed and Dave is pretty much spot on with grading. check here; http://www.javu.co.uk/Climbing/Guides/Chudleigh/index.shtml
I rust you aren'tthe guys who he said you could use his route description ad then you have copyrighted them to yourselves???

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):
Better not to just go with 1 opinion - I would stick with the established grade but perhaps qualify with a note in the description.

In reply to GrahamD:

Done it both with and without the peg, for me it really does - without the peg in place I prefer the first pitch of the Fly to approach the main pitch of the Spider.

In reply to dunkymonkey17:

We haven't used any of his route descriptions, and have copyrighted nothing.

I have emailed you the location of the topo. Off line comments welcome - it was put together in a single evening.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): I recall it was down as E1 when I first did it before the last peg was placed. There was a microwire placement in the peg scar then so it was still protectable, even if it did feel bolder. Anyway, E1 5a is supposed to be bold. Maybe just a note in the description that the pitch is bold if the peg isn't in place.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

I noticed your posting title: The Spider, Chudleigh, and it prompted me to look back to when I did the first complete ascent on Feb 14 1965 - 45 years ago this week, probably in better weather than now!

In those days the route was split into 4 pitches - which would perhaps given an illusion of safety on what is now the second part of the first pitch.

I can see why no-one would want to take a stance atop the "perched" block at the junction with Fly! I was convinced that the block was unstable. When Tony Thompson and I abseiled the wall early in 1964 to clean off the ivy we also tried try to lever the block off. I guess it's well stuck on with calcite but I was pretty worried laybacking it. Even 45 years on there must still be some doubt about it?

I've just got home from a 6b lead so I guess I could still manage 5c Spider. Perhaps this year I'll make a 45th anniversary ascent?

Congratulations too on the SDMC Chudleigh topo guide - its good to see descriptions decreasing in detail!

Frank Cannings

In reply to Frank Cannings:
Frank, come down for a birthday treat and we will do it together.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Hi Frank

When you did what is now the upper part of P1 (ie up to your second (the Great Western) belay), did you use a peg for pro in the hairline crack that's at hip height above the big footledge on the main slab (ie in the location of the peg that's just been removed after 2-3 years of being there)? Or did you just run it out to the second, Great Western belay with no pro?

Whatever happened on the first ascent, personally, I think the removal of the peg detracts rather than adds to the route, particularly given that the technical crux of the pitch is using those shitty, now very polished handholds to get up and mantel onto the Great Western belay (rather than the moves to get onto the slab and big foothold below which are straightforward with good holds).

Without the peg, the route is extremely bold. I don't think you'd deck - but you wouldn't be far off. And there's no trees to fall into these days following the excellent Chudleigh clear up (although not so excellent that day was the decision to lop the tree at the top of the crux wall on P2, thereby taking away a quick piece of pro for tired arms and mind after those moves below).

A great route. Bold on P1, strenuous but well-protected on P2 and overall very intimidating. Top end E1 (and, technically, 5a on P1 and 5b on P2 still Frank). But - without the peg - P1 should carry a serious health warning for anyone who's not solid and experienced at E1 or more.

In reply to Cusco:

Thanks for your logical and erudite comment. No peg was used in the upper part of pitch 1 - I've checked the typescript guide I produced in 1965 and my personal logbook - it was done without any protection - but we all climbed with much less protection then and the rock wasn't polished.

As I mentioned earlier, there was probably some illusionary reassurance from having a second belaying from the ledge below. Time moves on and circumstances change so I suggest there are no hard and fast rules to govern what we do.

When I did the first ascent of Boldfinger on Bosigran Seaward Cliff in Sept 1966 with Delwyn Davies I was fresh from a summer of hard Cloggy routes; we were very fit so the bold finger pull over the overhang was simply gymnastic. I graded it HVS. Some years later a climber fell off the move, decked on the sea ledges below and was killed. The route is now graded E3 5c. That's the dilemma we now face on such routes: do we add protection pegs (or bolts) - to maintain the grading or will a classic three star route need to be upgraded. Isn't the "serious health warning", you suggest simply a higher E-grade?

In reply to Frank Cannings:

What grade did you give The Spider originally?
Did you know or approve of the recently placed (and now removed) peg on pitch 1?

In reply to Frank Cannings: Who placed the peg and why? I have been climbing at Chudleigh for 30 years and I remember the first time I did Spider and there was no peg. I was quite bemused when the peg arrived, the climbing is not very hard there and I think it adds nice variation to this classic route to have a part that gives you a flutter!
There are E1's on Wintours Leap that are more serious. Well done Frank on the first ascent! would be good to see you again now that the wall is up and running,, would love to be with you and David when you re-climb Spider. Cheers Robbie

In reply to Dark Mavis:
Our replies crossed?
Spider originally graded before E-grades and technical grades as Extremely Severe. See my reply above for comments about peg protection on pitch 1. Regards...

In reply to ecowaller:
A bunch of us went through a strange phase when we were at University of trying to climb routes in the same style as the first ascentionists - i.e. walking boots and a rope around the waist on the pre 1950 routes, the odd hex for the 1970 routes etc. We shat ourselves and learnt that what was HVS in 1950 needs to be E3 plus with a rack of cams to get the same buzz.

When's your birthday Frank?

In reply to ecowaller and to David Coley:

The 45th Anniversary of The Spider 1st ascent 14-02-65 is now just passed.

Looks like I've now created a personal challenge for myself for this year!
I'll be pleased to have a go - to be arranged - David & Robbie

There wasn't an excellent training facility like Dart Rock all those years ago!

In reply to Frank Cannings: Theres a better one called The Barn these days.

In reply to ecowaller:

Don't know who placed the peg Robbie.

But with the peg, it was my favourite pitch and bit of climbing at Chudleigh and I've done it 5 or 6 times in the last couple of years. I don't think I'd go near it now - but maybe that's having a 7 week old son.

I agree that the climbing's not that hard to get to the peg. It's that 10ft wall from the big footledge onto the belay ledge that are much harder and very bold, made worse by the polish.

And what you find not that hard needs to be taken into context given your climbing history and ability. The number of times I've heard people at Dart Rock say 'There's no way that's [6a/6a+/6b/6c etc]!' (when usually hanging off the rope - in fact, ignominy of ignominies, it happened to me on the new green 4+ on the fin last week - although I'd been climbing solidly for an hour whilst my partner had a 'rest day').

PS - well done on Dart Rock. It's fantastic to have such a good wall in South Devon after all these years.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

Just to clarify it was me who took the peg out, towards the end of last summer.

Several others had tried unsuccessfully using conventional methods (hammer and crowbar!) so in the end I got hold of a bolt tester to pull it out. Unfortunately the peg snapped at the eye so is a bit of a mess at the moment (I'll go back sometime to try to tidy up the remains).

There definitely isn't a microwire placement in the peg slot at present as the stub is still there. I do remember trying to place a microwire in the past but couldn't get anything good. There is, however, a sideways Rock 1 placement somewhere near the peg.

I'm pretty confident that the route is still E1, although high in the grade and bold (as it always was before the peg was placed) and by Chudleigh standards it is not polished.

The first pitch of the route was always a classic E1 run-out and had no peg until relatively recently when one was added. Local opinion was predominantly against the retro-placing of this peg and the grade of this pitch probably dropped to HVS with it in place.

Dave Henderson

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): I have watched this thread develop with interest and feel I have to come out in support of Dave Henderson. Local opinion is generally against the appearance of a peg on Chudleigh's best climb where there had been no peg before. The climb is more balanced without the peg giving two E1 pitches - the first delicate and bold E1 5a and the second pumpy top end E1 5b. With the peg in place the first pitch is HVS and the route as a whole is a less intense experience.
I led the route onsight in the eighties and got the full buzz from it in its pegless state. I must confess that I clipped the peg when I revisted the route recently. I would feel stupid if I bypassed it and hurt myself. However if it is not there next time I do it I will be happy to take on the mental challenge. I don't think its a deck fall but I havent put it to the test.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): i've climbed the route twice, both recently and since dave snapped the peg. it's grand, not hard for e1. if you have cams at the ledge underneith you wouldn't deck, and as well as the sideways no 1, you can tie off the stub with a skinny sling and a bit of optimism, and directly above the stub a sideways no4 that sort of fits, would probably pop but altogether they make for a reassuring little cluster as you look down.
in regards to an earlier poster about the tree on pitch 2 getting the chop, you can still wack a sling round the generous stub and then place some proper bomber stuff just next to it.
my favourite limestone trad route so far.

In reply to w.pettet-smith: oh and nice work by the sdmc on the chudliegh topo, bit clearer that the white guide. but saturn v e2 from the cage? really? and chudders overhang hvs? the creep, the creep!

In reply to w.pettet-smith:
a. new version of the topo out on monday with one to haytor.
b. I think a cam below the slab has a 50-50 chance of pulling.
c. I hope you are well and strong.

In reply to El3ctroFuzz: In a sport where I have experienced so much comradeship I fail to understand this mindless negativity that seems to prevail in some quarters, who's to say if one wall is better than an another, its just personal preference much like why one person prefers a different route to another. Yes say there's a different wall but leave your negative opinions behind.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): Just found the SDMC Chudleigh topo. Excellent work -- it is devilishly difficult deciphering the SD&D guide on first aquaintance. Most of the upgrades are welcomed since they will keep people safer on those old sandbags.

In reply to Kafoozalem:

No, please limit the upgrades, really.
Combat at E4 6a - out of step with the other E4s - I could do laps on Combat before I could do Black Death clean, certainly no more than tech 5c. If it's 6a that puts Tendonitis well into 6b territory which it isn't compared to White Life. The move up to the good wire on the flake is protected by a high runner in Oesophagus.
Chudleigh Overhang - technical 4c, please.
Combined Ops - compared to Gagool, the Spider and Machete Wall and given how much gear there is in the lower section must be up for a downgrade to E1 (probably one of the most common comments I hear at the bottom of the crag in that area).
Combined Combat would be say E2 5c.
Saturn Five - from the cage, E1/2 5b, from the bottom then say E2 5c/6a (you can step off the lower section right up until you've committed to the mantelshelf at which point it's all over).
Not done Twang without the peg so no comment there. Surprised Loot has gone up to 5c but not done that yet.
Great Western - the hard section is well protected with the peg and then a friend when you reach round the corner so i think VS 5a for this as in the old guide is fair.

Let's get some opinions on here and maybe some consensus.

PS Thought the first pitch of the Fly went up the groove right of the Spider and didn't finish at the three peg belay.

In reply to w.pettet-smith:

Hi - there are good small nuts beneath the slab which are better than the small cam. Even with those (and when the peg's taken out and assuming no micro placement remains in its place), if you fluff the last two moves onto the belay, I reckon you'd be about 4ft off the deck with rope-stretch. And if you're particularly unlucky as you fall, you'll hit the footledge on the slab catapault upside down. Have a look down the pitch next time you're on the Great Western belay.

As for the tree on P2, the stump will rot in time - hence my comment.

Anyway, generally, if local concensus deems the peg should have gone, so be it.

But how many of those who support the removal of the peg will cheer at the appearance of the new bolt at the start of Empire which makes that route much safer? When I first started climbing in '91 (at Ansteys, my nearest crag), I seem to recall that the first (Petzl) bolt on Empire is where the old second (now third) used to be by the big pocket and you had to place and use a Friend 3 in the break!

But Empire's a sports route, you may say. OK - it is. But before French grades and retrobolting, I think it was a peg (and Friend 3) protected E6-6a/b. The very bold first 20ft has always been part of the route and the new bolt, even if it betters the experience as a sports route, changes that. That said, no doubt local consensus (and presumably Nick White) will support the bolt and it will remain, given the nature of Ansteys and Empire as a sports route.

But then the people who may cheer for the new bolt on Empire would no doubt be appalled if someone added a new first bolt on Devonshire Cream clipable from the flake over the overlap.

But that's a trad route you may say. OK - it is. But it's a trad route protected only by two bolts, which replaced the original pegs and where the consequences of a fall would be similar to falling before the old Empire first (now second) clip.

Personally:
- I was very glad of the peg on the Spider and thought it made a better not worse experience;
- I am ambivalent to the new bolt on Empire, although I feel it takes something away from the route. If others want it, so be it (although if I ever got fit enough to lead it, I think I would feel like I was cheating by clipping it, just like clip-sticking the old first rather than climbing up to and clipping it); and
- I would abhor any lower first bolt in Devonshire (half the fun is deciding where to place your fleece in the thorn bush and glancing anxiously at it as you feel the first shudders of a barn door on the crux!).

Oh well - that's more than enough of the contradictory ethics minefield. I just wish it would stop raining and dry out so I can get back on some real rock again. Happy climbing!

In reply to iantoday:

Well said - was thinking the same!

In reply to Cusco: yea it is all a bit of a minefield innit?i suppose the guts of my comment was that that i really rate the spider, and can only comment on it sans peg, and that i can reassure myself with loads of slightly duff gear that its ok. i think most folk confident at e1 would feel a flutter, then not fall off, then go phew, that was fun.
with the bolt on empire- i havn't been there since it appeared, i imagine it has been perma-seaped out all winter,no? i'd definately clip it though, and think 'ah what fun, i do like sport climbing, even though retrobolting is not all that different from retropegging, which i don't approve of, oh dear what a quandry, best get on with the crux i suppose, now, where has my tick mark gone...'
god i need to go climbing rather than talk shite about it.
oh and yeah, i see what you mean about the tree stub. do you reckon it'l go up to e2?

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):
a) look forward to it. have you seen the sample page from the new rockfax? it's pretty good, needs to have a health warning on the hangover flakes though imo. and don't stop now deserves another star.
b) you're probably right, theres a small one at shin level thats better though.but not a pitch to fall off really.
c) i'm well but weak thanks, duffed up my shoulders at the uni woody. a bit over keen methinks. off to oz next week, looking forward to some classic trad.how was riglos?

In reply to Cusco:

Funny ethos down in Torbay though, isn't it? Like Dave on the SW area meeting thread putting an agenda item on whether pegs should be pulled or replaced by bolts. Intrigued the idea of replacing them with bolts is even an option.

The new first bolt in Empire - other than people who had done it many times (& climb a lot harder than 7b), I don't think there's many people out there who didn't clipstick it. I know I always did and I'm glad there's a new bolt there so I don't need to anymore. To my way of thinking if you're going to have a sport route and give it a sport grade then there's no point it being dangerous. For me routes like American Express could do with the first bolt being 5 foot lower as well, but that's because I like my ankles. But to other folks that's probably just a slightly highball boulder problem start they can jump off and bounce...

Then again the first Devonshire Cream bolt is much the same height as all the other starting bolts on those routes (up until now with Empire). So was Devonshire meant to be an ethical statement that you have to be bold, or was the original bolter just being tight with the bolts or just happy to run 20 feet up routes he'd lead 20 times with pegs anyway and not too fussed about folk trying the route for the first time? So it is really just a poorly bolted sports route that now has it's own local aura and reputation? I'm not bold so to be honest for my lead I'd be quite happy for there to be a bolt there and just enjoy the climbing, but then it would become much less special as a route. So I'm going to have to trust the skyhook placements instead when I get the nerve up...

Incidentally, intriguing how differently people view things - I was ambivalent about the peg on the Spider, as I thought it took much of the mental pressure away from the route, I welcome the new bolt on Empire and I'd have mixed feelings about a bolt in Devonshire...

Not really sure what point I'm trying to make (if any) so lets have some more opinions on the Chudleigh upgrades, someone tell me if my grade opinions really are that out of step, please!

In reply to chris j:
combat- havn't done it, looks scary though. the bit without gear is almost as high as hot ice, which i have done and is usually given e4, sans mat i guess. so maybe a fair upgrade. i can't really comment though.
chudliegh overhang- agree, 4c.
combined ops- only seconded but felt pretty easy though polish might put off the leader a bit.probably e1.
saturn v -agree. the boulder start feels a bit commiting, but really.more like e2.
hvn't done the rest of the routes.
generally, the up grades seem a bit ott but kaloofazems (sp-sorry) comments about desand bagging probably right and i gues the new topo is for folk who don't know their way round the crag so well. i'm not a bonafide regular, but i am familiar enough with the crag to be in my comfort zone, and have repeated lots of the routes that i have done there. this obviously makes them feel easier. do you think this is a factor in your assesment chris? or maybe your'r from plymouth?

In reply to chris j: someone tell me if my grade opinions really are that out of step, please!

Chudleigh Overhang is potentially dangerous as the gear doesn't seat and it gets tugged by the leader as they pass it. I seconded it again today and felt it was definitely HVS and 5a (afterwards I led Concerto - with beta).

Combat is dangerous at the bottom. The high gear on Oesophagus will not stop a pendulum into rocks at the base of Sarcophagus unless steps are taken to limit the pendulum. I think the new guide goes too far in giving it 6a but an E3/E4 grade will deter the unprepared leader. I think I heard the flake may have lost a hold over the years?? I agree Black Death is another level of difficulty but it is probably safer.

IMO Combined Ops could be E1 but I have seen good E1 climbers struggle with the balance move leftwards around the arete at the first peg.

Gagool is E2.

Saturn Five is E1/2 5b from the cage but E3 6a from the ground.

I was suprised to see the high tech grades for Loot and The Slot. They are not so much technical as a good old fashioned tussle. E1 5b for Loot and HVS 5a/b for The Slot.

Great Western is ok as a tough VS rather like the Penwith ones.

I was happy to see Smoke Gets in Your Eyes get 6a

re Devonshire Cream - I believe the first bolt was placed at the height the first ascentionist clipped tat hanging from a peg which was the first bit of gear he could place. The bravery of the first ascent is thus celebrated but presumably that ascent could not have been on sight. I can see only one onsight lead recorded for this route at UKC. I wussed it yesterday leading it with the first bolt preclipped after practice - a nice F7a. In the past I have argued for the high bolt but if the first ascent wasn't onsight I don't know if I care too much. It just makes it a nuisance for people who want a F7a tick.

American Express and Empire have high bolts for similar reasons but you only get a French grade when you tick them. I'd support extra bolts for these routes. Anstey's high first bolt policy was in part driven by uncertainty at how the climbing community would view bolting in Torquay. Isn't it time the routes were made into full sport routes? And while we are at it - isn't the bolting at Ansteys rather elitist? Shouldn't some of the easier routes be retrobolted as well as the hard ones which have already been done. You don't see lower and mid grade climbers queuing up to do Anstey's trad which tends to be poorly protected.

In reply to Kafoozalem: Is there really a serious suggestion to add a starting bolt to Devonshire Cream? or is it just idle forum speculation. I hope the latter as it's one of the lamest things Ive heard. The ONLY thing that is of any interest on Devonshire Cream is the challenge of making those tenuous moves before clipping the first bolt. It is the whole character of the route. With an extra bolt the route no longer has a soul, it is as you say just another "7a tick". Loads and loads of people have made the onsight rite of passage. Just because its not been recorded in UKC logbooks doesn't mean it wasn't (still is?) common place.

In reply to Ian Parnell: No - definately idle forum speculation Ian. The on sight would certainly be an impressive rite of passage and an intense and memorable climbing experience. I am glad to hear that many have accepted the challenge. Excuse my heresy of dumb thinking out loud.

In reply to Kafoozalem: No problem, I got over excited - still have a soft spot for the old haunts.

In reply to Kafoozalem:

To my shame I must admit I unexpectedly tested the gear at the crux of Chudleigh Overhang mahy years ago - my feet slipped when I was wussing around refusing to commit to the layback. Think it was my first proper leader fall. Landed in space and the adrenaline rush got me back up the route...


The problem here for grading is there is the (bomber if placed properly) Rock 1 in the base of the flake which can be placed in perfect safety from underneath (trust me, as the world's biggest wuss if it was dangerous I wouldn't have lead it!). It's placed from a slightly strenuous position but then you can step down to a good rest. Problem is that without beta a leader new to the route is unlikely to know about or spot this. With the wire it is definitely only E3, without, if you go all the way up on to the flake then yes you're in a dangerous position and it's worth E4. Thing is, who do you grade it for? Or is it better to give a little beta in the description?


Some people like jamming routes in the Peak to be upgraded because they can't jam, should we upgrade for people who can't balance either...?


That's an interesting idea, I've been down at Ansteys with a few people who commented that bolting the routes on the right of the descent would be a good idea.

In reply to w.pettet-smith:

Hot Ice I've been up on a top rope and it's something I won't lead because it's outside my acceptable level of risk, Combat is fine, if you spot the gear in the flake. Problem is, do you grade for the onsight leader who probably won't spot the runner, or do you grade for the one who makes the supposedly perfect ascent and is lucky enough to see it and place the gear from a position of safety? The route is quite a different proposition depending on that one small detail.



the topo is great for showing people around but I don't agree with the idea we should up the grades because people who don't know the crag find it hard. It's not like I can go to the Peak and claim an extra E point for routes on grit because I'm not familiar with it. You just have to suck it up, have a hard time for a bit and get used to a place.

In reply to chris j:

Surely grades should be for information purposes eg Informing a visitor to the area which routes are within their capabilities rather than massaging egos by sandbagging them?

In reply to JimR:

Does that mean we should upgrade the whole of Swanage then? or go and spend time getting used to the area and the climbing style and drop a couple of grades when you first go there?

In reply to Cusco: Cheers for that! And point taken on grades, andy long who sets some of our routes does say are routes are on the hard side! And he sets routes around the country cheers

In reply to various:

<possible beta alert>

Saturn 5 - E1 5b starting from the cage. The E2 5c per guidebook. End of. Anyone who thinks it's E3 should get on Major Tom for a comparison!

Combat E3 5c - gear in bottom of Oesophagus protects getting the bomber gear in the flake (which you can get in from the sidepull below and return to rest). Even if you go up onto the flake before placing it you're on a jug to do so and downclimbing to the ground is still possible. Once you have the gear in it's literally one skip around the corner and you can rest on balance. Anyone who thinks it's E4 or 6a should get on Tendonitis for comparison (the start of Combat followed by hard pulls on small crimps, a dubious peg you can't clip from below, strenuous and sustained climbing above, the choice of a very strenuous gear placement out left or committing to a tenuous rock-over with an ancient peg well below your feet).

Devonshire - It's a weird one being bolted trad but the experience is there for the taking. Anyone considering it a 'dangerous 7a' is entirely missing the point.

The Spider - I was always glad of the peg but then I wasn't aware of the history behind it. Time will tell what impact in traffic the loss of the peg will have.

Empire - new bolt can only be a good thing. On my first lead attempts I did those moves up to the break unprotected and it was, frankly, terrifying and detracted from the experience of trying an otherwise excellent sport route. It's not the height or the landing so much as the eminent slip-off-ability of the holds - it would be so easy for a foot popping off the polished footholds to result in broken legs or worse. On the downside it means there's no real excuse to have the first bolt clip-sticked now which adds two extra clips to what is alredy a stamina-fest!

American Express - bold maybe but fairly safe. The fall from the first bolt is not even remotely comparable to the fall from the (old) first bolt of Empire. I tested jumping off from a few places before the first bolt and the landing's surprisingly forgiving being soft grassy turf. The committment required to reach the first bolt is part of the character of the route when you consider the committment required to reach the third!

Combined ops probably hard E1. Two contrasting ways to do the crux leaving the niche too - rock onto the slab if you like balancy slabs or power straight up the arete if you like that sort of thing.

Loot and The Slot - well I remember onsighting Loot when I was pushing E1 (thinking it HVS), but then I also took a good lob off the top when E1 should have felt comfortable... The Slot is a classic HVS struggle - it's far too hard to be E1!

In reply to chris j:

A new version of the guide will go onto the SDMC website in the next few days with changes to the grades - many in line with what you have said.

Thanks for the input.

In reply to chris j:

Re Chudleigh Overhang: 5a or 4c

It would be know what people think is being measured by the "technical" grade of a route. Thanks.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): hardest technical move innit. probaly the reach around the top after the two layback hand movements, which isn't harder than 4c. my mate badger can do it and hes rubbish at climbing

In reply to chris j: cheers for the beta on combat, wish i'd got on it while i had the chance!

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

From memory of several years ago I would think 4c - if you pussyfoot around and refuse to commit then you can get in a right mess (I think I tried to jam rather than layback first) but if you just get on with it then it goes ok. Compared to the Funnel (S 4c) at Saddle Tor which I did yesterday I'd say the Funnel had the harder individual move.


I understood it's supposed to be the hardest individual move on the route. Though that can be tricky to assess if there's a sustained sequence of moves near your limit which will obviously feel harder towards the end of the sequence.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

Cool, thanks for taking it onboard.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Hi Ian - as far as I'm aware, no one plans to put a lower bolt in Devonshire. I think there'd be a lynch mob for anyone who tried it. If you haven't got the balls to do the Chris Nicholson jump into the thorn bush, you shouldn't be on it!

In reply to Chris J, I've seen very few people pre-clip the first (now second) bolt on Empire. It's just not cricket - petanque or something else Continental maybe, but not cricket.

So I know my view on the Spider peg is totally contradictory. I suppose I see a ground fall from 20ft up Devonshire or Empire as less serious than a ground fall from the 40ft up on the final two moves of Spider P1. Plus I'm a wuss.

On the topic of south devon retrobolting I was sad to see that Up the Styx has been retro bolted, why not just replace the first bolt and peg ?
Surely the route next door Ulyses has also been compromised as a trad route ?
Where does all this stop are classic routes like Black Ice and Renegade which rely on fixed gear going to be turned into sport routes as well.
I haven't climbed in devon north or south for many years now but its sad to see more and more trad routes being bolted.

In reply to chris j:

Hi Chris

Firstly, let's applaud Dave Coley and SDMC for producing the new photo topo. It must be hard to produce a guide and get panned for upgrades by us critical yolkels.

But I agree with your and Qudamyre's views about some of the grades. For what it's worth, I'd give the routes the following IMHO:
- Chudleigh Overhang - HVS-4c? I've done easier HVSs and harder 4cs. It's nowhere near as hard or bold as the traverse on the Leap Year Finish or the Fly.
- Logic and Twang - standard E1-5b.
- Gagool - E2-5c (far more sustained than Logic and more technical than the cruxes of the Spider, MW, Twang, Co-ops and Logic moving past the flake into the crackline).
- Co-ops - E1-5b (far too much bomber gear and not hard enough for a E2).
- Combat - E3-5c as per the traditional grade. It's mega pumpy. But there's no 6a moves on it and the gear is bomber (if you can hang on to place it). Like Quadmyre says, the first high nut in Oesophagus will protect you as you place the nut in the flake, which then protects the move round the arete. But if you like double-ard and bold, tap in 'Combat' into the Photos section on UKC and check out the shots of Steve Bell on the flake, pre-mats.
- Oesophasgus - E1-5a (no 5b move on it - just sheer, unadulterated, mindless graunch).
- White Edge - ungradeable. One of the wierdest set of move on an E1.
- Loot - E1-5a/b - a disgusting route and the stuff of nightmares. (particularly the bold, polished grimness to get to the roof). Horrific.
- Spearhead - VS-4b/c. It's much harder compared to Leek and Reek.
- Machete Wall - E1-5b, as per it's traditional grading. MW Direct is E2-5c and requires you to go straight up after the crux (instead of hopping out left to the good foothold) and straight up from the top of the pinnacle.
- Inkermann Groove - worthy of HVS-4c in many other places. Remarkably sustained for a VS. (I know I'm going to be shot down in flames on this one! But I'll go with a visitor's view - Bill Birkett in this case).
Tantulus - E1-5b, 5b. Underated. But a bold and disconcerting second pitch worthy of a danger sign.

Anyway, thanks for the guide Dave. You've got a few typos in places as well - is it spell-checked?

Just hope the Slot dries out sometime this year...

In reply to Cusco:


Now this is where you and I must disagree. Gagool I think is a candidate for E2 5b - it's sustained and eminently slip-offable but I don't think there'a a 5c move on it. I think you would fail on it due to pump rather than there actually being a hard move.

Machete Wall however I reckon the move up past the pegs is 5C regardless of where you go after. I've done that crux many times, never the same way twice and each time always feels like I'm about to come off. If it's E1 it's top-end E1, I reckon E2 is a fairer grade - bottom end E2 if you go the normal way, solid E2 maybe if you go direct above (don't know never done it).


Probably borderline E1/E2. The rest in the niche before what is probably the crux is maybe not really good enough for E1?


I think this route should be concreted over and removed from the guide.


Again I think this route should be removed from the guide on the basis I couldn't do that move even with a rope above me


Good point. Hard, balancy and gear at your feet with a ledge not far below for the crux as I recall...


Hmmm... sustained if you hang around but not that much climbing between hands-off rests? And what would that make the direct?


Second pitch as I recall is exciting but objectively fairly safe if you find all the gear.

In reply to Cusco:

Thanks to all.
The guide is a work in progress and I think a new version (v1.0c) was uploaded today as was Haytor and Hound tor. I will review the grades again in a few weeks. Please send me any spelling mistakes. I could also do with photos with the line of Tantulus and white edge marked. I got lost on the former and did the HVS finish on the later. (Quality isn't a problem as I can always re-take the photo.)

When thinking about grades it would be good if people really thought on-sight. I straight crack in the Peak holds little surprises. A route that requires you to know the size of nut, that there is a placement and that one needs to stand in a particular position to place it is a different thing. As is knowing that there are good holds above and one can rest in balance.

e.g MW feels E1 once you have done it, but possibly E2 if you have never been on it. GWestern and C'Overhang the same.

Thanks.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC): Hi, I agree with HVS 4C for Chudleigh Overhang.
Gagool direct I think is quite hard for E2 without preclipping the peg, i suggest E3/4
Spider is a solid E1 5b
Oesophagus E1 5a
Machete wall E1 5b
Black Death solid E4 onsight
Mortality Crisis E4 6a/b
Penny Lane E3 6b
The Slot E1 5a
Loot HVS 5b
The Spy E2 5c
Great Western VS 5a
Panga E2 6a
Whoremoans E6 6B
Harvestman E4/5 5c

Just a thought???

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

One thing I disagree with in all these grade suggestion lists is the grade for The Slot. I've led it three times and every time it feels like typical South Devon HVS 5a. And it's well protected. Please leave its accepted grade alone!

Quite relieved for the first time to see some acknowedgement from others of the relative difficulty of Gagool on sight, as I've always thought it to be E2 and have never seen it written up a such in any other guide or blog.

Machete Wall E2 5b, E2 rather than E1, not because it's sustained, or poorly protected, but because it's hard to flash. ie. reducing the crux move to a boulder problem it would be English 5b, not 5c.

Oh what jolly fun and enjoyment we get from debating route grades!

In reply to Dave Henderson:

Good work Dave. As you know I agree on all counts. Glad P1 is back to being a fantastic bold E1 5a pitch.

Rob

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):

Hi Dave,

Good work on the local guides/topos.

Suspension Flake HVS 5a?
Aerobic Wall E3 5c?

Surely typos?

In reply to TMM:


No. But possibly wrong. All comments welcome.
I have seen a series of VS leaders having problems on-sighting SF and several E2 leaders in high panic on AW. (There seems to be a clear problem for the short here as it is hard to reach the break if you are under 5'8''. As more female climbers enter the sport I see many such grade changes. (Some slabs might go the other way.)

In reply to simon wooster:

Hmmm, I'd probably give it E1 5c - I've always found that crux move desperately fingery. But there is only one move of it and the route is well protected - lots of pegs and normally a jammed wire just after the crux.

in reply to the torbay (Anstey's Cove) comments, the first bolts are miles away, and I know for a fact that a few of the decent locals use a clip stick.

sport climbing, to me, is leaving the door open for anyone to have a go at your route. which is very understanding of you thanks!

trad climbing is not. you have to earn the knowledge and strength to set foot on someones hard route. again in my opinion.

I think some peoples view are stuck in the middle, which is fine. just shooting the breeze. apologies op for being soo far off topic.

In reply to David Coley (SDMC):


Not that this forum is the arbiter of grades but the log book suggests that of 83 votes cast by climbers of Suspension Flake gets rated at VS with a few votes at 'Easy VS' and even at HS.

Suspension Flake is a well known local classic and is therefore something of a benchmark. Another local classic is Aviation. This has long been a borderline HVS/E1 route. According the SDMC Guide these two routes are both HVS but in my opinion there is a huge difference between them.

Aerobic Wall gets a few more votes at Hard E2 but I've always thought it was a very unthreatening route, safe situation, good landing, decent gear etc...

I'd be interested to see what others think as well. Grading is always a subjective game and as you suggest height is just one of the factors.

Apologies to the OP as this has nothing to do with The Spider but seeing as the thread has now developed/degenerated into a South Devon discussion I thought I'd poke my oar in!