UKC

The dreaded stairs up from the glacier are a thing of the past. Montenvers - Mer de glace has a new gondola, and this one should be reasonably future proof... It wont be fullycomplete for at least another year, but it is currently open to skiers and 'alpinists' and i would expect that it will also be running for 'alpinists' for the summer season too.

youtube.com/watch?v=5FfRi3NCTvI&

Its absolutely mad that you used to be able to step out onto the ice from the train station. We've really c*cked everything up.

future proof? there are already 3 flights of stairs up from the glacier to the start of the new lift.

did you not watch the video? i explain quite clearly why it 'should be reasonably future proof' in it.

Stairs aren't the issue and won't get any longer.

But maybe they should have placed it further up the valley to avoid the long walk from the edge of the snow to the Gondola.

I agree - it's the shirt...

I have that shirt

Is the "James Bond" track still the way down to Chamonix?

The ice has been receding more or less ever since it left the shores of Lake Geneva. It was always inevitable that some time in the future even the Grand Jorasses would be dry. Sure, it's happening a lot quicker thank it should thanks to our abuse of our home planet, but stepping on to the ice from the train station was only ever going to be a possibility in a tiny moment of human civilisation either way.

no it has never been possible this year

chaos yesterday.  Huge queues to get on the new lift and to get off it at the top.

Is it no longer possible to use the ladders?

Queue to get off!?

yes! The CMB are losing the franchise to run the Montenvers train at the end of this season so things may change

But surely, wherever the start is, it is fixed, be it the bottom of the old steps, or a gondola..with the rate of glacial recession, surely it is only a matter of time before you are walking  a fair bit after skiing the VB to get to the gondola? Why is the glacier where it is now, not going to melt?

PS. I am sure they employed the best glaciologists there were before shelling out millions (?) of euros on a gondola

PPS. The last time I was there (15 years ago), they were 100's of steps..some guy had a heart attack walking up them...

What makes you think there is a glacier at the bottom of the gondola?

Didn't the guy ski to near the bottom? Wasn't that the point of the gondola - to accommodate the skiers who skied the VB (and a small number of 'alpinists'?), rather than letting them slog up an ever increasing set of ladders?

The glacier is, at best, a few  bits of dead ice now.  It's gone at that level

Indeed. It's also the case that people were probably a lot more worried 200 years ago about glacial growth than they are these days about glacial recession!

Given that around 99.9% of people would have no idea what a glacier was then, that seems unlikely.

Since the conversation is about the Mer de Glace, I was talking about people from Chamonix. I guess I should've been more precise.

Chamoniards definitely knew what glaciers were 200 years ago! They were starting to bulldoze their barns down at valley level. Probably thought the villages would be next...

when there is enough snow yes... so not the last 2 years

no, at least not while construction is ongoing. im sure once everything is finished they will create a new 'alpinists' route on and off the ice for poeple who miss the last train, but the gondola line crosses the old ladders so they are not safe to use in their current position.

just because the ice is gone doesnt mean the snow will be gone... it will still be a slope, you will still be able to keep skiing assuming it is an 'average' winter snowfall wise. sure they will probably have to clear some sort of 'piste' through the moraine, otherwise it would take an exceptional amount of snow to make it possible.

of course in a few decades there will be no lasting snow at the altitude of the mer de glace valley bottom either, but by then the aiguille du Midi will have fallen down so there will be no valley blanche skiing anyway!

because there is...

wrong.

the glacier still extends well beyond the location of the old ice caves, it is just very thin. just because it is covered in moraine doesnt mean it is 'gone'.

Here is the level at the gondola mapped to 2019. It's gone.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332483-600-special-report-how-clim...

having been stood on it 2 days ago i can assure you it is not.

and that article doesnt show it as being gone either, so stop talking crap.

I don't know why you are being so aggressive -weird climate denial?? The glacier (i.e flowing ice) is higher now. 

For anyone actually interested in this rather than silly contradiction argument, a lot of detail here, particularly figs 3 and 4

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263013565_Future_fluctuations_of_M...

I dont know why you are being so thick. all the evidence you have provided clearly shows glacial ice below the location of the gondola. and i dont need scientific papers to show me that. i have been stood on it dozens of times over the last few months... nobody is denying climate change here, just stop talking crap.

I was trying to find out what the current access situation is the other day and came across this:

https://www.chamonix.net/english/news/chamonix-new-telecabine-montenvers-me...

Note the penultimate paragraph:

"18 months ago, when we started the work, the glacier was at the level of the foundations of the departure station. Today, we have to climb up 20 steps from the ice to the departure station. The retreat of the glacier is relentless with monstrous acceleration"

You are embarrassing yourself, both with you attitude and your inability to understand what is being shown to you. The second link shows the snout at 2012 (12 years ago) as somewhat below the gondola. It predicts it at the gondola at ~2020. We are now in 2024 after two exceptionally hot years. If you really want to substitute standing  on some dead ice for scientific study to form your beliefs, fine, but if so, it's not me being thick.

And none of this alters my original point that the new lift won't become redudant from glacial retreat because there is no retreat left to happen at the relevant point.

Heartbreaking, that we can be discussing the (once) mighty white river as only a few tens of metres, and then discussing about when it is gone.

Early 1990s the gondola was still well placed for tourists to visit les grottes des glace without too many steps

It's extraordinary that there is this much argument about one of the best documented glacial retreats in the world. 

you're embarrassing yourself. Do you even know where the new gondola is?

I will tell you. Its much closer to the 'echelets' line i.e. the ladders, than the 'montenvers' line. Fig. 5 has around 60-80m of ice in 2030, i.e. 6 years from now. that is far from being gone.

And need i remind you that this is a model, a computer simulation. I am telling you facts. What is actually there, right now, today!

Chamoniards definitely knew what glaciers were 200 years ago! They were starting to bulldoze their barns down at valley level. Probably thought the villages would be next...

they had bulldozers?