UKC

I recently bought a Lanshan 2 tent for an extended backpacking trip which includes Turkey. I am very pleased with it, it is a three-season 2-person tent with decent build quality weighing 1kg for £155.

https://www.woodtowater.co.uk/product/3fulgear-lanshan-2-tent-khaki/

https://sectionhiker.com/lanshan-2-tent-double-wall-review

Now I am looking for a cheap but light sleeping bag in a similar vein. Would this one be alright?

gooutdoors.co.uk/16560001/oex-fathom-ev-200-sleeping-bag-1

It all depends on what kinds of temperatures you're expecting. Comfort 7C and limit 2C is okay for summer mountain use if you're expecting fair weather and are decently fed and energized. On a tiring day in suboptimal weather conditions and especially if you're hungry might be pushing it. 

Also, 800g for a two season sleeping bag is okay but not necessarily super lightweight. 

Last year I bought the higher rated version, the OEX Fathom EV 400. The given figures are comfort (-1 C), limit (-8 C). My first use was a night spent in an early March camp when the temperature definitely fell below freezing and I was very cold even with a silk liner and every stitch of clothing on. My foam mat wasn't great but I've upgraded it this year to a thicker one. I've only used it one night this April and it was OK. I'm slim so no excess insulating blubber but I would take the stated ratings for the EV 200 with a pinch of salt. The 400 will definitely perform better but with a slight weight penalty (it's 1125g). Just don't take the rating figures at face value.

You might be out of luck with that bag, anyway, as it's out of stock online in Millets & Blacks (same company as Go Outdoors). The lowest price in sale seemed to be about £26 in Blacks.

OEX is that group's own brand label. It's okay, but not premium quality by any means. They claim 500g of fill, out of a total 800g. That leaves 300g for the shell, which seems very light; I have a minimalist 600g down bag with 150g fill that weighs 600g, so 450g for shell, with only a half zip.

As yet untested, but I bought this whilst it was on offer.

https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/extreme-lightweight-down-sleeping-bag-p14...

Same weight, ever so slightly warmer (possibly). Just another option.

Buy a down bag cheap on eBay? I got a very decent ME Helium for a very good price this way.

I agree about 2nd hand.  There are lots of bargains to be had online if you invest the time in looking at all the postings.

I heard a bit of wisdom about bicycles once - you can have cheap, or strong or light.  You can choose any two but can't have all three.  I think the same applies to sleeping bags - cheap, warm or light.  You can have any two but can't have all three.

It applies for everything. 

Not everything.

The lightest, strongest and cheapest matt is still a closed cell foam matt. Although if you start adding thermal characterising, bulkiness and comfort it gets a but more uncertain.

Not the comfiest, though. Or necessarily the warmest. and definitely, as you say, not the smallest

I'm pretty convinced that silk liner add basically no insulation. They are great when you're bikepacking and want to or have to go to bed muddy and sweaty!

I used that in a UKC sleeping bag review a decade ago! :⁠-⁠)

Yes, have to agree and I'd also add that they are a pain in the bum as they twist and ruck up as you turn in your pit.

300g for the liner is certainly do-able.  I made 2 season quilt and i seem to recall the shell being about 300g.  That weight limit implies using something fairly thin, like nylon.  Its fine for the outer shell but its not very comfortable on the inside.  You might want to add a silk or cotton liner for comfort.

The price for the shell and insulation was about £40 -50 (2018), so paying much less than that means either sweatshop labour, cheap and nasty insulation, or both.

Thank you for the link. It is of course nearly twice the cost of the Oex and two thirds of the cost of my tent. Out of interest how much do people usually spend on their sleeping bag relative to their tent (eg 1/3 as much or 2/3 as much)?

Alpkit make good reasonably priced down bags.

I've never thought about sleeping  bag cost verses the tent but I have certainly spent a lot of on tents over the years than sleeping bags. 

Tents are prone to breaking, poles, seems leaking, groundsheets getting torn etc etc. Sleeping bags tend be fairly well protected through most of their lives save for the occasional wash and dry. 

If I know it's going to be fine weather I take my tiny lightweight down bag. If it's car camping trip I take my 15 year old synthetic Vango bag because I'll probably have had a too many pints and don't care how I get into the bag. If it's a "serious" trip then it's my Alpkit 4 season down bag. I am prepared to carry the extra bulk to make sure I get a good night sleep.

Everyone has a budget, my priority is warmth over weight. I'll sacrifice a few hundred grams to get a warmer bag (and often cheaper) than risk a bad night's sleep.

I know plenty of people who wish they had spent more on the right bag rather than save money on the wrong bag. 

I have trawled through ebay and amazon (I have amazon prime with next day delivery) but I don't think anything second hand would reach me in time unfortunately (I need it by Saturday), so I still need a stopgap.

I want it to be light but I did see the Oex EV200 in a Go Outdoors store and what impressed me the most was the size when compressed. I would say it compresses to something like half the volume of the EV400 (which I own already and is and average sized sleeping bag). I need it to be very small to fit in my 36l rucksack, which will be going in hand luggage. (It will ideally handle 7C, which is the Average Low temperature for at least one city I will visit in October. If it's only slightly too cold for the sleeping bag at that point I expect to be able to buy extra liner for the sleeping bag locally and also use my clothes as liner or as a blanket. But I expect to be in youth hostels 90% of the time anyway, the tent and sleeping bag are mostly for redundancy.)

I have already been to three stores, Go!, Blacks, and Craigdon Mountain Sports (cmsinverness.uk). There is also a Tiso, an Alpkit, a Cotswalds in my city, and I have checked all their websites. I think there are very few cheap, tiny, sub-850g sleeping bags being sold right now in my city which are not Oex-brand.

I am unsure whether Craigdon Mountain Sports actually have it in stock right now, but would

https://cmsinverness.uk/products/microlite-100

be any better than the Oex?

Another option might be a car boot sale which may or may not take place on Saturday!

Blizzard Active survival bags are cheap, probably £30-40, light (prob 280g 2 layer & 380g warmer 7.5 tog 3 layer. They are reusable, vacuum packed and sort of puff up when opened but can't be repacked easily to the same small volume. I have never actually used mine but they are used by various outdoor organisations. 

Not ideal and probably noisy and crinkly. However with your time limitations you could probably order one on express delivery.

Like sleeping in a very warm crisp packet, or the plastic sleeve of a microwave meal. Tends to get sweaty, and is pretty noisy, but remarkably warm. Ideal emergency weather gear (who cares if it is crinkly?) but suboptimal for a planned night IMO. But readily available...

b

I was saying it longer ago than that, when I worked in an outdoors shop!

Bizarrely, Lidl have some camping gear in store at the moment, including some very small sleeping bags, but I suspect they won't be quite warm enough for you - or anybody, really, unless it's a very warm night!

Mountain Warehouse suggestion above is a possible one - I nearly bought a Traveller 50 (which won't be warm enough for you) to avoid taking my down bag on a wet bikepacking weekend, but we decided to YHA instead.

About the Down lining of the Mountain Warehouse tent: I don’t know very much about Down vs Synthetic sleeping bags unfortunately, however I have just read that Down may not handle moisture as well as Synthetic. 

Here are the precipitation rates each a city I may near in in each month (compared with Aviemore for reference), taken from Wikipedia: 

May: Ljubljana: 109mm (Aviemore: 58.8mm), June: 56.5mm (63.8mm), July: 27.6mm (59.7mm), August: 81.6mm (69.8mm), September: 85.4mm (78.7mm), October: Ganja: 24mm (Aviemore: 102.2mm).

So the sleeping bag will need to handle and environment at least as wet as Septembers are in the Aviemore. Is Down ok in this environment, or is synthetic more appropriate?

...

Something else I read:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/down_vs_synthetic__sleeping_bag-4...

"nniff07 Nov 2010

In reply to Murg:

It all rather depends on how long you're going to be out and how wet it will be. I had to throw a down bag away after one miserable week of bivvying - it never recovered. Thereafter, synthetic all the way if bivying in the UK. The extra weight is worth the good second/third etc might's sleep. In a tent, down, unless it's sure to be tipping it down."

So just for context, I will not be going in a bivvy bag like nniff07, but the Lanshan 2 is a single-layer tent (not double-layer). I will be going for 5 months, which is much longer than a week as in nniff07's case. I expect to be in youth hostels most of the time, able to dry my sleeping bag in a bunk room if it is really necessary (I'm not sure it's guaranteed they'll have a garden or let me use their drying room), although this could be inconsiderate to the others in the room. 

The thermal properties / weight are generally better for down provided you keep it dry. The quality of the down isn't the best in the Mountain Warehouse bag, but it's not bad for the money.

I'm not sure those perception rates tell you very much. Does all that water typically fall in one day, or does it drizzle constantly. Weather on the day you are there is more important.

It depends if you keep your sleeping bag dry or not. If you're stuffing it into a waterproof bag and your tent stays dry I wouldn't worry about it. Humidity may be more relevant.

Hopefully this will be slightly more useful:

May: Ljubljana: 109mm, 75% (Aviemore: 58.8mm, 87%), June: 56.5mm, 68% (63.8mm, 88%), July: 27.6mm 46% (59.7mm, 88%), August: 81.6mm 71% (69.8mm, 90%), September: 85.4mm 72% (78.7mm, 94%), October: Ganja: 24mm (Aviemore: 102.2mm).

September: Trabzon: 85.4mm, 72%, which is comparable to

October: Bolzano (South Tyrol): 84.4mm, 75%

If moisture is at all an issue then go with synthetic. I've gotten into a synthetic bag with wet clothing inside with me and the clothes have dried out from body heat. Although you should protect all sleeping bags from the rain it's not a big issue if a synthetic bag gets wet. Your body will dry it out and it will still be warm while doing so.

At worst it is probably going to be as wet and humid as Bolzano is in October, which is to say as wet but considerably less humid than the UK. On the face of it that should be fine for a down sleeping bag, but the sheer length of the time I am intending to be out is what sets this apart. Of course you would normally have the chance to dry your sleeping bag thoroughly after coming back from every trip, which I will not be able to do in exactly the same way. If I google 'laundrette' near Ardahan in Turkey all I get is carpet cleaning services, so I am not sure I can always rely on having access to a washing machine or a dryer. In order for the down to retain its loft and warmth the sleeping bag apparently needs to be washed in a large (Over 10kg) washing machine (mountainwarehouse.com/expert-advice/how-to-wash-a-down-sleeping-bag) and it needs a specialist Down Care Kit (mountainwarehouse.com/down-care-kit-p22613.aspx/One/?rrec=true) which will probably add 500 grams to my rucksack, and I have no idea if most youth hostels would have the patience to wash the sleeping bag by itself with the down care kit, or if they would just throw it in with the regular wash regardless. Maybe somebody has experiences of that.

I think your research is pointing you in one direction - synthetic. Far easier to maintain in a fit condition and much more able to cope with damp. I wouldn't be too hung up on getting everything sorted before heading out. From my own experience of long trips (up to a year) it's often possible to get what you need/want in the places you're visiting. It may or may not be optimal but it'll do and usually be cheap enough to give away when you're done with it.

Down sleeping bags are more expensive, but generally smaller and lighter than synthetic ones for the same temp range, which is partly due to the difference in construction. The trade-off is generally that they are hopeless if they get wet and take a long time to dry out - this is because the down is loose filled inside tubes and clumps together when wet, so it's little more than 2 sheets of thin fabric with a few lumps of wet down here and there. A synthetic bag still retains some warmth when wet, as the insulation is like a sheet of cotton wool and stitched into place. This difference also means a down bag should last several times as long as a sythetic bag (if looked after), as the insulation in a synthetic bag will break down from repeated packing and introduce cold spots. Some top-end down bags have been using waterproof outer fabrics for years to protect them from condensation dripping on them and, more recently, I think a few have dabbled with hydrophobic down - but not at your price point.

I'm not going to go into specifics of fill power and the various types of synthetic insulation.

With both types, avoid getting too hot in them, or they'll get moisture from sweat, and make sure you're exhaling outside the bag.

If you're at all concerned about the damp, or being able to keep a down bag dry, then stick with synthetic - this might also apply to any insulated jacket you're thinking of taking. Alternative might be a down bag and a bivvy bag - it'll protect the bag from both dirt and moisture and you can use it in huts and so on, but it's extra weight when you're already taking a tent.

There's no point trying to wash a down bag on a trip - they take days and a LOT of tumble drying to break up the down again.

Lankyman makes a good point that you may well be able to get what you want out there cheaply - and if it gets trashed, you can give it away and buy another one (not very green, but sometimes a necessity).

Indeed - I prefer PJs in a sleeping bag. Although I have to say I didn't have that issue when I tried a silk liner - seemed to be slippery enough that I twisted inside it.