UKC

Black Diamond Gridlock carabiner and Grigri

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 John Workman 02 Feb 2022

I was rather astonished to find that It would seem that I've been using the incorrect set up of this carabiner with my grigri according to this link [not sure if its working]. 

Does anybody have any further info?

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/bd-gridlock-with-grigri-are-you-using-it-wrong

In reply to John Workman:

That is massively counterintuitive. 

I'm not a Grigri user but keep toying with the idea of buying one and I'm not sure I've ever read the instructions on my gridlock.

Thanks for sharing!

OP John Workman 02 Feb 2022
In reply to angry pirate:

Me neither but at the wall today a friend said that clipping the narrow end of the 'gridlock' to his grigri was the correct way. I didn't believe him but turns out he was right and I was wrong

Post edited at 17:34
 AndyRoss 02 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

If you have been using it wrong, make sure you check for any sharp marking on the inside of the end you're about to start using at the belay loop end. You might not have any, but sometimes the GriGri can score the inside of the carabiner.

Post edited at 22:34
 Wil Treasure 02 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

Your friend is correct, this is Black Diamond's intended way to use it. It's not dangerous to use it the other way though. (I was a BD sales rep when they launched the Gridlock)

 john arran 03 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

It does seem like a workaround for a design flaw. Surely if it can cross-load one way, it can do so the other way, albeit maybe with less likelihood due to the materials involved and the way the krab is likely to move in practice during belaying. The real design flaw seems to be that the two loading points are able to get pretty much opposite each other in anything but the preferred loading direction.

 99ster 03 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

For me, the DMM Ceros is the best carabiner for using with a Grigri...

https://dmmwales.com/climbing-products/locking-carabiners/ceros

 Jamie Wakeham 03 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

I wonder if their logic is that the grigri is likely to rotate around the karabiner (more likely than a tube as it has less friction with the karabiner?) and therefore keeping it in the tighter radius makes it less likely to escape?

Post edited at 09:34
 nikoid 03 Feb 2022
In reply to 99ster:

> For me, the DMM Ceros is the best carabiner for using with a Grigri...

Interesting, same shape as the Gridlock, but you use it the other way round!

I too have been using the Gridlock the wrong way round. 

OP John Workman 03 Feb 2022
In reply to 99ster:

Thanks for that. I'll get one of those.

 Howard J 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Wil Treasure:

>  It's not dangerous to use it the other way though. 

Surely the point of BD's diagram included in the linked article, and the reason for their advice to use it the "wrong way round", is that it is dangerous, because of the potential for cross-loading?

In reply to nikoid:

> Interesting, same shape as the Gridlock, but you use it the other way round!

> I too have been using the Gridlock the wrong way round. 

Well they specifically state that the 'horn' is there to prevent  assisted braking devices slipping onto the spine so BD are not the only ones who saw it as a problem.

 john arran 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I wonder if their logic is that the grigri is likely to rotate around the karabiner (more likely than a tube as it has less friction with the karabiner?) and therefore keeping it in the tighter radius makes it less likely to escape?

I think the issue is that the grigri pulls on the krab at effectively a single point, whereas even a single rope will spread the load over a cm or more. If you look at the last 2 diagrams, it's clear that shifting the centre point of the load even half a cm up from the internal gate will prevent effective cross-loading as it will act to right the krab back into normal alignment.

The design flaw is that the internal gate needs to be slightly further from the small end of the krab.

In reply to John Workman:

CORRECT. In that case you should use it the "wrong" way round, or instead use e.g. DMM Ceros (as others suggest).

This issue exists with GriGri and several krabs including belay specific ones like DMM belay master, Mammut Smart HMS, etc, etc.

Any piece of crucial kit, be it Grigri or anything else... you need to try it out with whatever krabs etc you normally use, do your best to get it to sit in a bad position or make it malfunction in some way, then see what you need to do to prevent that. I'm sorry but some judgement is required.

Checkout Youtube channel "Jann Camus Bliss Climbing", this is the exact sort of thing he does all the time with all sorts of bits of kit.

 galpinos 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I wonder if their logic is that the grigri is likely to rotate around the karabiner (more likely than a tube as it has less friction with the karabiner?) and therefore keeping it in the tighter radius makes it less likely to escape?

In practice, I have found my grigri is a lot more prone to moving around the carabiner and cross loading compared to any "manual device" (sticht plate, tuber, ATC, ATC Guide and Pivot). It was so common I bought a belay master crab specifically for the Grigri to prevent this.

 galpinos 03 Feb 2022
In reply to 99ster:

Do they not do it an colour that's isn't eye-bleedingly bright. Wow.....

 galpinos 03 Feb 2022
In reply to AndyRoss:

> You might not have any, but sometimes the GriGri can score the inside of the carabiner.

I have a dedicated Grigri crab for this very reason!

 Wil Treasure 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Howard J:

Yes, you're right. I posted a bit too quickly. Not more dangerous than a regular krab, but does defeat the point of buying a Gridlock.

In reply to 99ster:

I've got a Ceros for my pivot but have found it a bit awkward with the grigri cos it doesn't rack nicely on the back of my harness when I'm not belaying. I've found that oval carabiners, either dmm perfecto or petzl ok, work really nicely and never seem at risk of cross loading.

 99ster 03 Feb 2022
In reply to galpinos:

> Do they not do it an colour that's isn't eye-bleedingly bright. Wow.....

They never used to do them in those colours! 

 bpmclimb 03 Feb 2022
In reply to John Workman:

As others have said, this is a more general issue, and not confined to the Gridlock. I have a small, fairly standard screwgate on my Grigri, and always reverse it to make twist-loading less likely. I've been doing this so long it's second nature.

....... BTW I also put the screwgate on the harness so that the gate is on the left after reversing (opposite side to the rope).

In reply to John Workman:

Are there any recorded instances of a carabiner failing during belaying because of cross-loading? My normal belay crabs seem to be rated for 10kN across, which would be very hard to get on the top bolt, let alone on the belayer.

 OscarVanL 05 Feb 2022
In reply to galpinos:

Yes, they mostly do them in the regular DMM dark grey colour with a yellow screwgate.


I'm not sure why there website shows all these different colours when I rarely ever see them for sale anywhere.

I'm very happy using the Ceros with my grigri. Before I would constantly take my eyes off the climber to make sure my screwgate hadn't flipped around (which happens all the time when using the grigri with a regular HMS as you pull the dead end at a 90 degree angle). Now I don't look at it at all because it is always positioned in the correct place.

Post edited at 10:01
In reply to Suncream:

> Are there any recorded instances of a carabiner failing during belaying because of cross-loading? My normal belay crabs seem to be rated for 10kN across, which would be very hard to get on the top bolt, let alone on the belayer. <

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213403/Inadequate-Belay

No injury or breakage but rope popped out while belaying due to cross loading. 

 wbo2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to 99ster: I think the Edelrid HMS bulletproof is better  - the steel insert stops the Al geting chewed up as happens with the DMM

With a pivot I'd normally use a DMM belay master as it holds the pivot in place pretty effectively.  The grigri tends to stay in place anyway with the Edelrid bulletproof as there isn't much slack around the hole in the grigri so movement is limited.  The Ceros is a fine carabiner though - my most regular partner uses one, and I've never thought it was anything but a good piece of equipment.  

I do NOT like my BD magnetron, but maybe I've bought the bad one in the bunch - the locking mechanism feels rough and cheap

Post edited at 12:52
 wbo2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to oldie:  That relies on cross loading and not properly locking the gate.  That's such an unlikely combination in anything resembling sensible use,

3
 Rick Graham 05 Feb 2022
In reply to wbo2:

If the gate is on the left , the rope will naturally unscrew the gate when lowering in the cross loaded position.

Just realised that I have been doing it wrong since 71 or 72 when I first got a sticht plate . Being right handed , I naturally clip the belay krab with the gate facing left. Just as well that I use a CT concept, dmm belay master or grivel twin gate nowadays. 

UKC always seems to manage to flag up some useful beta on a regular basis. Makes up for  having to trawl through the dross that can inflict this site.

In reply to oldie:

I don't think that applies to the grigri, the gate was unscrewed by the rope running over it but the rope doesn't run over the carabiner at all on a grigri.

 bpmclimb 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Suncream:

> Are there any recorded instances of a carabiner failing during belaying because of cross-loading? My normal belay crabs seem to be rated for 10kN across, which would be very hard to get on the top bolt, let alone on the belayer.

I think the problem is not just the crab going sideways on, but more of a twisting force.

In reply to John Workman:

Youth of today.. What's wrong with a body belay 


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