UKC

/ DMM Micro Cams [Rumor]

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provenzano - on 15 Jun 2018

DMM is probably going to launch a new range of Cams! https://www.facebook.com/dmmclimbing/photos/a.191468200900971.48257.120904307957361/1732684453445997/?type=3

Has anyone found more information about it?

Let's wait for confirmation in the following days at Outdoor show!

provenzano - on 16 Jun 2018
Mark Kemball - on 16 Jun 2018
In reply to provenzano:

But we have to wait until next spring

Mike505 on 16 Jun 2018
In reply to provenzano:

They look a lot like alien revos to me, should be good a good addition to many a rack though!

 

Post edited at 22:11
r0x0r.wolfo - on 16 Jun 2018
In reply to provenzano:

bd x4 size 1:  8.4mm - 13.8mm 51 grams

Dmm dragonfy 2: 8.7mm - 12.9mm 52 grams

 

Seems to be a trade off between an extendable sling or the greater range. They look amazing though.

routrax - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to Mike505:

> They look a lot like alien revos to me, should be good a good addition to many a rack though!

But with DMM build quality, materials and customer service.

They should fly off the shelves! 

Mike505 on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to routrax:

My thoughts exactly (although I do like my Totem Basics very much).

In reply to provenzano:

We’ll have the lowdown on this later today, as we’re currently out filming at OutDoor.

From what I’ve seen so far I would have thought they’re almost guaranteed a place in our Top 10, which will be published on Wednesday. In the meanwhile, keep an eye out for updates via social media. I’ll try and respond to this thread when I know more, but have a full day of meetings so bear with...

Post edited at 08:06
MFB - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

> bd x4 size 1:  8.4mm - 13.8mm 51 grams

> Dmm dragonfy 2: 8.7mm - 12.9mm 52 gramsI

I would struggle to buy something with less range than a competitor unless some other factor - build quality, head width

 

Post edited at 08:44
danm on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to MFB:

> I would struggle to buy something with less range than a competitor unless some other factor - build quality, head width

I'd also be interested in the camming angle. Whilst a greater range is nice, the cam staying in is more important to me. Not sure if there is any difference between them though.

GarethSL on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to routrax:

Absolutely! Dmm have answered my question for which micro cams to add to my rack! 

MFB - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to danm:

There is a difference between the BD angle and the 13.5 degrees used by nearly everyone else (I think) but never heard anyone say it makes a functional difference to cam staying put. 

danm on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to MFB:

> There is a difference between the BD angle and the 13.5 degrees used by nearly everyone else (I think) but never heard anyone say it makes a functional difference to cam staying put. 

The laws of physics say otherwise.

Big Lee - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to danm:

> The laws of physics say otherwise.

Which laws of physics?... For the benefit of those that are not physicists. 

RawPowa! - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Lee:

Basically the smaller the camming angle the more outward force is generated. At 13.5 degrees it is 2 times the downward force, I'm not sure what it would be with 14 degrees as I'm also Not A Physicist.

MFB - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to danm:

> The laws of physics say otherwise.

ha ha, good point

- I think cam angles are covered by one law of physics (maybe)

- camming devices, staying put in placement, covered by lots of laws of physics

 

danm on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Lee:

A way of visualising it is to imagine a ladder propped up against a wall. The top angle is the equivalent of the camming angle. With a small angle, the ladder is secure, but at some bigger angle the bottom will slide out. The angle at which it will slide will be determined by the co-efficient of friction between the material of the ladder and the floor. A more slippery floor (or in our case, rock) will mean a slide at a smaller angle. A flared placement is equivalent to the floor sloping away, again making a slide occur at a smaller angle. So a cam with a bigger camming angle is more likely to slip out when the placement is flared, or the rock slippery, lubricated by dust, water or mud, or a combination of these.

beardy mike - on 17 Jun 2018
In reply to danm:

Yes the laws of physics. In practice rock is not perfectly flat, materials used for cam lobes have a big affect as do the coatings used on the surface of the cam to protect it from Stress cracking corrosion, and anacdotal evidence would show that camming angle is perhaps less of an influence than it seems to be claimed on the interweb. You could also cite smaller camming angles as transferring more force outwards on the placement thereby making it more likely to break flakes or pulverise rock. Aliens which have a huge following also have a 16+ degree camming angle. BD is over 15 but varies. WC and DMM are on 13.75. Metolius have a 12.5 with a varying angle towards the expanded position. But all of them work. That said, people regard the aliens as the best in terms of real world sticking. The difference IMO is that they are made from 6061-t6 which is the softest alloy used by all the brands - I think Totem also use it. The result is inelastic deformation of the cam lobe causing mechanical interference between the rock crystal structure and the lobe. But it's also the weakest alloy... so it's simply not sufficient to say "physics". There's a lot more going on than just camming angle.

camparator - on 18 Jun 2018

For anyone interested, here are the sizes of the new dragonflys compared to the aliens https://camparator.com/perma/dragonfly-vs-alien

Big Lee - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

These cams look like a cross between Aliens and WC Zeros. They look like Aliens but have the same camming angle, and similar sizings/ratings to the WC Zeros. All the more glad I picked up my Zeros during clearance. I've been more than happy with them.

beardy mike - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to Big Lee:

The Zero's had the unique feature of a termination that was inside the axle which mean't you more or less could not place them badly in a vertical orientation. I don't know whether that will have been continued on the new MC from WC which are also being released at the show... Somehow I doubt it which is a shame as it was a really great feature. My main criticism of the X4 is the crimped termination is excessively long - the Zero was the complete opposite...

SuperLee1985 - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'the termination was inside the axle' and how this affects placement of them, could you elaborate? Ta.

Andypeak - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to SuperLee1985:

> Not sure I understand what you mean by 'the termination was inside the axle' and how this affects placement of them, could you elaborate? Ta.

Think he mean that most cams have a stiff bit of metal sticking out to act as a bit of a lever. The zeros didn't, it was flexible cable all the way to the cam head

Jonas Wiklund - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> That said, people regard the aliens as the best in terms of real world sticking.

Well. In a few hundred falls over twenty-some years I've had exactly three cam placements rip on me, all of them aliens...

Post edited at 18:25
beardy mike - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to SuperLee1985:

All cams more or less bar the Totem cams (Totem totems rather than totem basics) have a stem unit made from cable. This extends from the thumbloop or thumb press, to the axle on which the cam lobes and usually springs sit. At that axle end, again it is normal for there to be a piece of stainless steel which is either crimped or brazed to the cable permanently to allow for a transition from the cable to the axle - it's a rigid termination block. The method for this joint is what my post is talking about.

In the vast majority of cases the joint is effected with a crimp, i.e. the steel piece has a hole in it, the cable is inserted into it, then put into a hydraulic crimping machine which effectively crushes the steel piece down onto the cable. This means a mechanical joint is effected. This is the case with: BD X4, BD C4, BD C3, WC Technical Friends, Helium Friends, and the new Friends, DMM Dragons, DMM Demons and the new Dragonfly. The BD varies from the DMM and WC in that the swage is round rather than hexagonal, but it's the same principle.

In a limited number of cases, the joint is brazed, which is to say a similar termination is created - a steel piece is drilled and a cable inserted into the piece, only this time they are then heated using either an oxyacetylene gas torch, or in the zero's case, an induction heating forge. This brings all the parts to a high temperature, although below melting point - it's quite critical to avoid retempering the steel which would cause brittleness and weakness in the joint. A filler metal is then introduced to effect the joint, in this case a high strength silver solder, which melts at a lower temperature than the main pieces - this then draws into the joint, making an incredibly strong joint, as long as all the processes are controlled correctly.

In almost all cases the termination then has a transverse hole through it, allowing you to put an axle through it.

There are three exceptions to all of these terminations, the BD X4 in the smaller sizes, Ultralight Metolius Cams and the WC Zero.

The BD X4 has a single piece of steel which forms the axle and the crimped termination, effectively a t shape. The crimp is as described above.

In the case of the Zero, the axle was machined from a bar so as to have a hole through the middle of it (with extra material around the piece to strengthen it sufficiently. A small ring was then silver soldered to the cable, and this was then inserted through the axle, i.e. the termination was housed entirely with in the axle. There was no crimped area.

In small sizes especially, the crimp presents 2 problems:

1 the cable is smaller and where the cable has been crimped there is inevitably a stress riser in the cale, making the strands more likely to fracture due to fatigue from flexure.

2 the cam, when placed in a shallow vertical position where the cable is not oriented in the direction of the load, the length of the termination creates a lever, increasing the forces on th already marginal placement. The longer the termination, the worse the effect.

The beauty of the Zero termination was that the stress riser did not exist because the termination was away from the point of flexure, and there was no lever effect. I know that was a really long explaination, but it's not that easy to explain!

beardy mike - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to Jonas Wiklund:

Well sure - that is the anecdotal sort of evidence which is nearly impossible to recreate in a lab. It's what everybody seems to say though...

AlanLittle - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

I struggle to imagine what sort of idiot would have disliked that thoroughly informative explanation.

beardy mike - on 18 Jun 2018
In reply to AlanLittle:

Maybe it was Michael Gove? Either that or it was a bit too involved...

SuperLee1985 - on 19 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Fantastic explanation, much appreciated!

nufkin - on 19 Jun 2018
In reply to Mark Kemball:

>  But we have to wait until next spring

'Spring' can be a very vague concept for DMM

Mike505 on 19 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Or perhapse Sir Chope?

TobyA on 19 Jun 2018
In reply to nufkin:

> 'Spring' can be a very vague concept for DMM

Yep. Who remembers the full page ads in the mags for products that never appeared in the shops, or did appear but looked rather different!

I'm still waiting for DMM Shadow Secure krabs, the best bolt end krab that never existed, and DMM revolver ice screws with flip out handles, which if they existed would definitely be my favourite screws! ;-)

beardy mike - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to SuperLee1985:

If there's one thing I can talk about at inordinate length until people get so bored they move to a different pub, it's cams

beardy mike - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to TobyA:

I tell you what, those DMM secure crabs - they aren't they first time that concept has been trialled and dropped as there is at least oner other patent which is really really close to the DMM one which works on exactly the same principle - think it was a BD one...

danm on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> Well sure - that is the anecdotal sort of evidence which is nearly impossible to recreate in a lab. It's what everybody seems to say though...

Except those who don't! I'm afraid that experience tells us that anecdotal evidence is often unreliable. I certainly wouldn't design a product based on it...

Zeros have some real benefits as you describe with the minimal length of the stem/axle transition - shame the trigger mech was pants and often ended up twisted and impossible to activate. One of my bugbears with the modern trend for an encapsulated stem is you can't inspect the stem for broken strands. With the old Tech Friends you could just about slide the plastic sheath away to check.

beardy mike - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to danm:

Indeed - you can only pay a certain amount of creedance to anecdotal evidence, hence why I made the distinction. That said, what I take away from that evidence, is that softer material which sees more surface deformation and therefore more mechanical interlocking between cam surface and rock surface generates higher holding power. That is reflected in DMM's research and their new surface texture - more grooves in alternating directions allows crystals to sit in the grooves and produce a better bond. And it can also influence your decision making process - if it were up to me I would be specifying a lower angle than CCH did, but the same material so that you increase holding power again...

And yes, the trigger system on Zero's was a horror show. Patents were still running though...

TobyA on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Edelrid has got quite close with the sliders although I've been regularly using 4 or 5 for a good few years now and they're not perfect. Pretty good, but the lock mechanism can hold the gate open if dirty or frozen.

beardy mike - on 20 Jun 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Yes indeed - it's a bit of a known flaw that one...


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