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Recommendations for a round profile carabiner?

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 YourNameHere 12 Sep 2021

It was recently suggested to me to use a carabiner with a round profile when using a belay plate (DMM Pivot) in guide mode.

So far I've found the Metolius Element: https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/element_belay_carabiner.html

Any other suggestions? Thanks!

In reply to YourNameHere:

If you want carabiner made from round stock, try going to decathlon website and looking at the simmond and Kong branded ones, for example https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/screwgate-karabiner-3000-polished/

 John1458 13 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

I prefer using a dmm rhino with my pivot, the round profile has worked well I think. 

https://dmmwales.com/climbing-products/locking-carabiners/rhino-hms

 neuromancer 13 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

DMM aero is rounded all around but flat backed to sit against a guide plate.

In reply to YourNameHere:

I use these, in silver, with all of my belay devices.

https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/locking-carabiners/petzl/ok-oval-carabiner

The red 'warning' band is useful for a quick visual check.

 YourNameHere 13 Sep 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

The Kong looks like a good option. A bit lighter than the Metolius.

 YourNameHere 13 Sep 2021
 YourNameHere 13 Sep 2021
In reply to neuromancer:

Rounded, but not round. I have one though, so I'll try it out. Thanks!

 YourNameHere 13 Sep 2021
In reply to phizz4:

I think you might have missed the brief

 PaulJepson 13 Sep 2021
In reply to phizz4:

I think that's the wrong kind of rounded rather than what the OP wants. That krab is I-beam, not round in profile. 

Camp do some nice chonky round lockers. 

Post edited at 13:52
 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

Given the popularity of guide mode, I'm surprised more manufacturers don't offer a round bar locker. Ideally for me it would we light and twist lock style, and oval too so I can use it for indirect belaying too.

Manufacturers,  please. 

 PaulJepson 13 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

Light and round unfortunately don't go together. That's why they all went to I-beam, as it cuts out a significant amount of metal whilst maintaining strength. 

 neuromancer 13 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

Dmm do all of this?

Start with the aero?

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to neuromancer:

> Dmm do all of this?

> Start with the aero?

I mean in a single carabiner. I don't think the areo ticks a single box, it looks like a d shaped screw gate with a non round section. 

 David Coley 13 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Light and round unfortunately don't go together. That's why they all went to I-beam, as it cuts out a significant amount of metal whilst maintaining strength. 

True, I guess I mean as light as possible, which in this case means small. 

 PaulJepson 13 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

I'd highly recommend the Camp Picto. They're discontinued I think but Go Outdoors still have them (and very cheap). They're pretty small and have a really nice shape and profile.

In reply to David Coley:

> Given the popularity of guide mode, I'm surprised more manufacturers don't offer a round bar locker. Ideally for me it would we light and twist lock style, and oval too so I can use it for indirect belaying too. <

Non-technical person here. I have an old, light, 10mm round stock offset D screwgate (Kong-Bonaiti) that I take when using minimal gear, but I've always assumed that braking force is smaller compared with the wider diameter (12mm) round stock screwgate krabs (eg WC Synergy) I generally use with my tube for belaying and abbing, and assume that saving weight by having a light but thinner round stock may be a disadvantage. This doesn't necessarily apply to the OP's  guide mode application of course.

 lithos 14 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

light and twist lock don't go together

i use the older version of the petzl ok oval with round bar stock and screw gate

 Cake 14 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

> It was recently suggested to me to use a carabiner with a round profile when using a belay plate (DMM Pivot) in guide mode.

Why is the round profile better for this purpose?

 John1458 14 Sep 2021
In reply to Cake:

I find that the rope runs smoother, in turn making it easier to belay in guide mode using the device with a round profile carabiner compared to one with a more angular shape. DMM rhino compared to DMM sentinel/aero/shadow is what I've personally used. 

Though the difference in feel is increased when using larger diameter half ropes in guide mode. Noticeable with 3/4 year old 8.5mm mammut genesis, not as noticeable with new 8.0mm mammut half ropes. 

In reply to YourNameHere:

The DMM Rhino and Ceros are both excellent and basically designed to work with the pivot. If its durability you're after you could also look at those fancy edelrid crabs with the steel inserts?

 OrangeBob 14 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

Climbing Technology Concept come on various styles. They are I beam with a round section for the rope to run over.

I have a screwgate with one of those internal wire gates to stop it twisting round on your harness coz I'm a cackhanded noob punter who can't do it properly without someone to hold my hand.

They also do twist lock versions. Both styles available with or without the wire gate.

 YourNameHere 14 Sep 2021
In reply to OrangeBob:

I guess I could borrow the one from my Click-Up, but just to clarify, the crab that the rope runs around doesn't attach to your harness in guide mode, so there's still the chance of the rope feeding around the spine if the crab moves, so more keen on a fully rounded crab.

Sounds like the Rhino wins on that front, as it's designed to prevent it rotating.

 Andy Gamisou 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> I think that's the wrong kind of rounded rather than what the OP wants. That krab is I-beam, not round in profile. 

Could you elaborate?  Not sure what i-beam means, and the carabiner looks "round" to me?  Thanks

 PaulJepson 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Imagine cutting through the krab and looking at it in profile. Most modern krabs will have a profile like a capital 'I' (like a metal girder). Older krabs were rounded (more like a round pole). 

The 'I' profile saves weight, as it reduces the amount of metal required to maintain the strength. The downsides are that they don't wear as well (you get sharper edges where the rope wears through) and apparently don't belay in guide as smoothly (I've not noticed the latter). 

 Jamie Wakeham 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> ... apparently don't belay in guide as smoothly (I've not noticed the latter). 

I have a DMM Boa as my dedicated belay plate karabiner - I prefer the extra size - and that's what I have always used even when I'm in guide mode.  Have to say I've never spotted any problem.

All the DMM specification sheet says on the matter is that they recommend the BelayMaster.

 nufkin 15 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

>  I don't think the aero ticks a single box, it looks like a d shaped screw gate with a non round section. 

There used to be an HMS version, now discontinued. The Rhino is probably the closest of the current range, shape-wise

 PaulJepson 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

Here are 2 of the same krab with different profiles to better illustrate: 

This is referred to as 'I-beam':

https://www.rocknrescue.com/wp-content/uploads/M33A-G.jpg

This is the older version of the same krab with a rounded profile:

https://cdn3.volusion.com/tbofj.uymcq/v/vspfiles/photos/PM41GU-2.jpg?v-cache=1617635710

Post edited at 09:49
 Andy Gamisou 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> Here are 2 of the same krab with different profiles to better illustrate: 

> This is referred to as 'I-beam':

> This is the older version of the same krab with a rounded profile:

Obviously I'm being thick as pig's doodaah, but they look pretty much the same shape to me.  Does the i-beam bit refer to the "sticky out" bits on the first link? 

In reply to PaulJepson:

> The 'I' profile saves weight, as it reduces the amount of metal required to maintain the strength. The downsides are that they don't wear as well (you get sharper edges where the rope wears through) and apparently don't belay in guide as smoothly (I've not noticed the latter). <

Non-technical person here. Could "smoother feeding" be associated with "reduced braking power"?
As I understand it the angles the rope runs through and friction are important to the braking force. I'd expect smaller diameter profiles and "I" profiles to have reduced friction and also possibly reduce the angles a rope has to follow.  Thinking particularly of tube devices in normal belay and ab mode, though I imagine the same principles apply to guide mode (don't use it myself).

Post edited at 11:05
 Cobra_Head 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Obviously I'm being thick as pig's doodaah, but they look pretty much the same shape to me.  Does the i-beam bit refer to the "sticky out" bits on the first link? 


the I-beam is the profile, like a stick of rock when you are reading the writing.

 PaulJepson 15 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

It's not the shape of the krab, it's the shape of the metal which makes the krab. 

 Andy Gamisou 15 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> It's not the shape of the krab, it's the shape of the metal which makes the krab. 

OK, thanks.  

 neuromancer 15 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

Loads of people not understanding the OP's request.

Unless I'm up my arse - they are looking for a biner to use as the locking biner when in guide plate mode, NOT just a normal belay carabiner.


The rhino and boa are both fine normal belay biners, but they are I beam and so the rope hangs up. This means it's more of a nause than usual to pull rope through a guide plate.

I still maintain the DMM aero is perfect for this...

 Jamie Wakeham 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neuromancer:

To clarify: I use my Boa as the rope karabiner (not the connection-to-the-anchor karabiner) and it seems to work just fine.  No hang-ups or snagging. 

I do have pretty thin ropes; perhaps it would be less smooth with thicker ones?  And the DMM documentation doesn't seem to specify anything in particular about that karabiner.

 nufkin 15 Sep 2021
In reply to neuromancer:

>  The rhino and boa are both fine normal belay biners, but they are I beam and so the rope hangs up...I still maintain the DMM aero is perfect for this

The Aero HMS might have been, but isn't available anymore. The Rhino is only I-beam down the spine - see DMM's product page:

https://dmmwales.com/climbing-products/locking-carabiners

Even so, I'd have thought most of the specific HMS I-beam krabs would be fine. They're still rounded where the rope would run over the internal radius, and it looks like in some cases (eg the Shadow HMS - though I must admit I've not actually held one) the 'lower' bit of the I-beam flares out slightly wider than the top part so it would cause the rope to run round in the same way as would a fully rounded bar

 laughitup 15 Sep 2021
In reply to YourNameHere:

Wouldn't any HMS crab be appropriate as HMS are named such as they are designed to be able to be used with a munter hitch and thus run smoothly in the round.

 David Coley 16 Sep 2021
In reply to oldie:

> Non-technical person here. Could "smoother feeding" be associated with "reduced braking power"?

Hi, not really, as I was talking about guidemode belaying. 

 PaulJepson 16 Sep 2021
In reply to David Coley:

Yeah the braking comes from the seconders weight on the rope, trapping the 'dead' rope into the belay device and locking up. There is no slippage with guide-mode (one of the disadvantages, if your climber wants to step down). The smooth feed the OP wants is purely when taking in rope.

 YourNameHere 16 Sep 2021
In reply to nufkin:

> Even so, I'd have thought most of the specific HMS I-beam krabs would be fine.

The problem is that, because of the lack of anything tensioning the opposite end, I find that they have a tendency to walk so that the rope is running over the spine. This is particularly true when belaying two seconds climbing one above the other, where you often  don't have a free hand, or time, to correct it; and made more likely by the frantic belaying needed to keep up!

It sounds like the "horn" on the Rhino might help prevent this, but my preference was for a crab with an all-round round profile, accepting that it won't be quite as light as the alternatives.


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