UKC

Hi All,

Just seeking some advice, thinking about spending Christmas in Cairngorms as will not have kids. Map reading good, Good experience in mountains and I will be prepared for at least -10 with bag and shelter with 5 days food just in case. Only issue is no experience with Crampons and Ice axe. The plan is to do a course in Jan but no children over Christmas eve - boxing day . If weather crap then I will bail out and do something else. I anticipate the inevitable answers however advice is still welcome. Cheers Garth

Your plan sounds a bit cart before the horse, to put it politely. Could you get on a course in the next few weeks?

If you’ve not got winter experience the cairngorms are likely to be a tough place to be (think whiteouts, navigational challenges, blizzard, difficult terrain to navigate with etc) and especially if camping out solo.  The weather can be fairly hostile up on the plateau over the winter.  Not a place you’d want to discover your bag wasn’t warm enough etc. 

What about camping/bothies at lower level with some hills each day?  It’ll give you options to bail if you don’t feel up to it/the weather is dire, is likely to be (a bit) milder etc? 

Yeah, the valley routes are also fairly inspiring so you could spend a good few days exploring the range, particularly if you wanted to take in some of Tarf and Tilt, Glen Feshie, Glen Avon etc. Plus a Cairngorm valley route has the potential for pretty much everything the British mountains can throw at you except steep icy ground - even the main passes get up to about 800m, you can get blizzards, river crossings, navigation in zero visibility, deep snow etc.

Or you might get a mild patch with almost no snow on the ground and be pottering around in a t-shirt picking off munros. Who knows these days...

Aside from no experience with axe and crampons, there's also the avy danger to think about. Although this might be mitigated with sound route choice. 

Thanks for the advice, would it be possible to recommend a course before I head up to the Cairngorms, Cheers Garth

Nice idea, thanks for the advice

Great information, thank you

Thanks for the advice, i have now decided to do a course first.

Good idea. On top of the above, remember in December it's going to be dark for at least 16hrs a day, more if cloudy and no moon, long sunsets etc.. that's a lot of headtorch time if using huts, camping or out walking. 

Personally I would say that it’s easily possible to wander round the Cairngorms in winter for a few days without more than the usually acceptable risk of some unpleasantness, assuming that what you say is true; ie that you truly have all the required survival skills except using an ice axe and crampons. If you’re sticking to the less steep summer paths, then so long as you can work out how to strap on the latter and stick the former into snow, and act with appropriate caution, then I don’t see why anything dreadful should occur.

I do however slightly question the premise; people who have acquired the required skills have usually also seen an ice axe and crampons before. Still, you know best about that.

jcm

Have a look at courses from such as Plas y Brenin, and Glen More Lodge.

You could also consider an individual guide, but that would be more expensive.

Long nights which could easily see below -10 with wind chill. What sleeping mat arrangement are you planning on?

I'd route plan to bypass or camp close to the established shelters, if weather looks inclement. 

From a crossing at Fords of Avon, I used rubble bags over boots and my walking axe as a pole. Still I feel I was lucky in crossing. Snow and ice sheets either side of the bank also meant entry and exit was kinda speculative! 

Have a look at this for example. Would be based in the area you want to go to and run by people who know the area very very well and able to give you good advice. Course available early Dec:

https://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/winter-mountain/winter-mountain-skills/int...

Thanks for the advice and you do know the area well, I haven't been to Cairngorms. I went to the Artic to enjoy cross country skiing in the Winter on holiday, I also spent some time in the Marines eons ago, I do remember putting on strap on crampons but experience 30 years ago doesn't really count.

Cheers Garth 

Thanks for the advice especially about rubble bags, save me wearing sandals🙄

sleeping arrangements will be:

Alpkit 600 pipedream. Sleeping bag liner, xtherm mat

250 merino wool and down.

Hat and snowboot inners, I run hot so should be good enough with a bivi bag and tent.

Should be enough. If not after one night I'll head back down.

Don't forget to give someone an outline of your planned routes and escape routes.

I hope you have a great time!

If you've got a tent, ditch the bivi bag. 

If there's rain/snow I find it a good idea to keep the bivi bag over my sleeping bag in the tent to keep the sleeping bag 100% dry, particularly so if it's down. Doesn't weigh much.

hmmm- might impair its ability to breath and mean you over a few night sget mor emoisture into the down?

This sort of sounds like a good idea but I find it doesn't really help or in fact is worse in practice. Unless your tent isn't great and you're worried about water ingress.

As for weight, a 400g ish saving for zero cash outlay is a pretty good gain in my book.

I got an amazing bivvy bag in the 1990s from a guy in Meadowfield, Co Durham, who made them in the industrial estate (not Gore-Tex, some other fabric, and branded Durham Mountaineers). Never had a single moisture problem in 30 years, always a dry bag, no matter how wet all the stuff in the tent is, how much snow I clump in or drinks I spill. We all have our little tent protocols, and I swear by this. Having said that, I bought Mrs F a Rab bivvy bag some years ago expecting the same level of performance -- or better? -- and it was atrocious, very wet every morning, so I get what you're saying.

It's a sunk cost, and compared with a string of onions or a bag of potatoes it's peanuts.

I meant that by not taking it you reduce your bag weight without buying expensive lightweight kit.

Each to their own but I don't tend to take bags of spuds for a couple of nights out!

just get out there and have a good time!

Getting a guide for one day at the start to go over crampon and ice axe basics could be an idea, and it would be a good opportunity to discuss your plans / routes for the next few days with someone informed.  I think the cost may be very reasonable, if a 2 day winter skills course would cost ~£200 and have a 1:6 ratio then one day with a guide at say £350 1:1 seems pretty good value.

There's plenty of good advice on this thread but the thing that really needs said is - it depends what it's like at the time.

It could be full Arctic storm conditions; it could be calm and mild.

You could be working hard to stave off hypothermia; you might be more worried about sunburn.

There could be deep powder, or bulletproof ice, or no frozen stuff at all.

And, of course, it can all change very quickly.

Here's Christmas Eve 2006, on Afterthought Arete and the Fiacall Ridge. Not really typical, but can still easily happen.

Pay attention to the conditions, be sensible about doing what fits them (there are loads of options) - and have fun!

This is key - it can’t be said too many times how variable conditions are up there (and how a storm arriving on Wednesday may arrive late Monday, something you may not be aware of if you’re out for a few days) 

I have been frequenting the northern corries in various seasons since my teens so I am quite familiar with the environment. Some years ago, I spent Christmas in the Cairngorms, mainly in and around Coire an t-Sneachda. I went soloing I/II/III during the day and slept in the corrie in a bivi bag.  The first night was quite benign and was spent by the lochan. Breakfast of hot Co-op Christmas pudding was brilliant. Forget all this stuff about Kendal Mint Cake. Co-op Christmas pudding is the climbing fuel of the Gods! 

The second night was forecast to be windier so I sought out a big rock with a neat shelf below it on the moraine that should shelter me from the expected west wind. Around 0200h I was wakened by a storm that was sufficient to whip turbulently around the said big rock and lift me into the air. An exhausting two or three hours was spent resisting the assailing storm. Come dawn, I was not ready for another day of climbing, even fuelled by Co-op Christmas pudding, and, after a bit of a wander, I decided to head home.  

If you are not experienced in that environment then probably you shouldn't do it. It can surprise any of us and if you are not ready for those surprises then you can easily find yourself wondering if you are going to die and it may even come true.

If you are not experienced in the environment you should definitely do it.

Otherwise you never will be experienced.  Apply some common sense and a bit of care and have fun.  Even type two fun