UKC

A local footpath to me (I use it monthly but clearly rarely used) is becoming really overgrown with blackthorn, nettles, brambles to the point where it is barely passablele and non locals would even struggle to find it. it's in a corner of a farmers field and then along a boundary between a field and wood.

Loppers, a saw and 30mins would make a big difference to it. 

A) legally can i come and chop stuff back (I guess no)

B) would you do it anyway irrespective of legality. As it would genuinely have no impact except on footpath

Just do it if you want to.

There could be an impact on wildlife though, which you might want to consider.

Good point, I think anything would be minimal but I will go back and have a proper look.

What It really needs is a machete but "I'm looking for a machete that will fit in a rucksac" I think gets you put on some sort of list these days  

You could try a decent set of secateurs for a start - pocket-sized, legal. 

When I lived closer I used to volunteer with the AONB management team that operates out of Arnside. Footpath clearance was one of the more common tasks we used to undertake. As well as loppers and saws we used to use something we called 'jungle knives' IIRC. They're kind of flat-bladed with a curved end and a wooden handle and we'd have to constantly sharpen them on a whetstone to keep them effective. About three feet long so unlikely to be misconstrued as a concealed weapon. Great for dealing with nettles, brambles and thin branches. Have you thought about contacting your local NP conservation group and getting involved? That's what I did many years ago when I came across graffiti on coastal rocks and discovered that the various local councils were as much use as a lead parachute.

Maybe pop along to your local police station, and see if you can blag one from their knife amnesty, having explained your need, of course...

From the Surrey CC website.

14. Can I clear overgrown vegetation myself on a Public Right of Way?

Under common law, a member of the public is entitled to 'abate a nuisance'. This can mean that if your way is blocked by something that constitutes a legal nuisance, such as overgrown vegetation, you are within your rights to remove it or cut it back sufficiently to allow you to pass. It is important to recognise however, that this right does not extend to carrying out more extensive work or going out with the express intention of carrying out the work. If in doubt, please report the issue to us.

There is the assumption that the footpath in question is a Public Right of Way as there is a possibility that it is just a footpath that has been used for years with no formal status.
Either way, I'd be tempted to carry out initial light clearing to make it immediately usable and then approach the farmer if you wanted to carry out more extensive work.

You are within your right to remove any obstruction.  This was set down in Seaton v Slama (1932) In this instance the person   broke a lock on a gate - that was OK, but not to remove the gate.  Likewise, "if there is a fence across the entrance or way he may be justified in removing sufficient part of the fence to enable him to have free acces to the way"  (Mr Justice Maugham).  Basically you can only remove as much as you need to to enable you to pass. No more.

If the footpath is  in a ~National Park it is also their responsibility to repair, replace and/or maintain footpaths  & bridleways.  Outside the `parks it is the responsibility of the local authority (Highways dept ) to do so.. 

As ~Lankyman mentioned there may be a local group who also maintains local footpaths.

If he knocks you back then you can approach the council to report it

https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/leisure/countryside/access/rights-of-way/righ...

or you could just get out there at dusk and do it You may consider that it will have no impact but it may well piss the farmer off and make any future access negotiations difficult

I've been trimming back the brambles on a local public footpath to allow me to get through. It's not damaging anything anyone is caring about and it will be over grown again next year so it's nothing permanent. Can't see why anyone would have an issue with this.

Jut to make my original post a little clearer;-

`You are perfectly entitled to clear a path through a Right Of Way and that is clear in law 

I’d far rather the farmer didn’t know who I am, on the off chance they’re deliberately discouraging people from using PROWs; it’s a minority of farmers who do that but they’re the minority I don’t want to have get a vendetta against me for using my legal right to minimally clear obstructions on a PROW.

Many local authority rights of way teams are chronically understaffed.  Five years since the last time one local farmer removed all the “public footpath” signs pointing over their land and were still awaiting replacements.

Cry me a river.  I say this as owner of land a PROW crosses, and I’ve gone out of my way to improve the drainage so what used to be mud that boots sank a foot in to in winter remains reasonably solid turf.  

Assuming It’s a PROW there are no negotiations, just the law.

As others have said, every council has a webpage where you can report problems with Rights of Way. The Ramblers Assn has a mission to keep footpaths and bridle ways open , so identify blockages to your local group. The Open Spaces Society may also be able to help. 

Have you tried the Peak Footpath Society, they do seem very active in improving paths.

https://www.peakandnorthern.org.uk/report.php

Thanks all. It's definitely a proper footpath, has a sign and is on OS maps.

Will likely do a moderate amount to clear a way and then look at flagging it to farmer (could be one of 3 farms) and peak footpath assoc

And is there any tool you would recommend Billhook? 

Might be worth trying to contact your local Ramblers Association - they often have footpath officers who are interested in keeping paths open.  (But they're volunteers, obviously, not a service).

Yes, this seems useful:

https://www.ramblers.org.uk/go-walking-hub/dealing-problems-public-paths

This bit is really interesting, and it is reiterated here https://www.ramblers.org.uk/go-walking-hub/dealing-problems-public-paths "You shouldn’t go out with the purpose of clearing vegetation without permission from the landowner as this could be considered criminal damage.” 

So to answer the OP, it would seem that you would need the Landowners permission, to return equipped.

I really think prosecution is highly unlikely. You'd have to prove the return and the work is effectively doing (what would be an unusually highly litigious) landowner's job for them. I usually have secateurs when using footpaths to access climbs (for the climbs); quite a few ramblers I know routinely carry pruning kit. The much bigger problems are deliberately blocked paths, signage removal and broken stiles.... where councils just don't have the resources to police.

Yes agree with all you say, but has the landowner a legal duty to keep a path clear of natural blockages such as brambles and nettles etc, and if they deny access for people to come “equipped” to clear this, can anything actually be done, even if the Local authorities or whoever have the resources.
 

1) "Hey folks, let's go up to XXXX, park 500m away, take our tools, clear the vegetation, then go home with the satisfaction of a job well done." 

2) "I always run this route/would like to run this 10km route again/perhaps in reverse; I assume that in accordance with the law the landowner will have cleared the 3m access I'm entitled to, but I'll drop some secateurs in my bag as I might face problems anywhere on my route...."

Do these scenarios both have intention and need permission ? I accept that (1) might be a problem...

I'm not trolling. Yesterday I ran a RoW with some comical overgrowth - this situation is real to me (20km S of the Peak National Park.) Member of the OSS, could probs look up their guidance, had never seen the "return with intent" constraint. 

Y

What do you mean 3m, are you saying a landowner has to allow a 3 mtr wide path, that is surprising, could you please supply some evidence to this assertion.

I have no idea about your other questions, it's all news to me.

I checked - 3m is a figure from my shoddy memory which isn't correct. But it probably came from something like this: 

https://www.oss.org.uk/rights-of-way-frequently-asked-questions/

Turns out it's not an easy question. 

https://www.oss.org.uk/getting-decent-widths-in-path-diversion-orders/

Here's the OSS view on how to get overgrown paths changed. "You might like to carry secateurs..." 

https://www.oss.org.uk/need-to-know-more/information-hub/what-to-do-about-o...

Y

~Look it is not rocket science.   You do NOT need any kind of permission to clear a footpath.  As long as you only clear the route.

Not all footpaths or bridleways come with designated widths.  You can cut as much off as you think necessary.   One of our footpaths locally is wide enough to get a tractor down and a local farmer does it every year at the request of the park using a flail.

Although I was for many years a volunteer for our NYMNP I helped clear lots of  footpaths and bridleways.  ~You don't have to consult with the owner of the land the PROW crosses, it might have been something the paid staff did, or not.   Either way  I've cleared lots of footpaths and bridleways  and Unsurfaced Unclassified  routes, with no complaints. 

Loppers and saws are excellent tools.

 

I am a PROW geek, so apologies.

One can carry secateurs and maybe a small folding saw, to clear your right of Way, I think most would agree.

What surprised me, and you refute, is the legal right to go specifically to clear a path.

Possibly, just possibly, the trees/bushes, whatever, belong to the landowner, and if you go specifically to clear, the intent is different, and it would be to damage another person's property, rather than assert ones right of Way.

This just a guess/opinion.

Personally, I would send in contractors and send the landowner the bill along with administrative costs, but hey ho.

As mentioned, there will be an ROW enquiry form on your local authority website. Don’t hold your breath though, they're likely stretched very thin. DIY may be easier. Still waiting on a reply from a query sent late July 😁

I thought about this question too.

My guess/opinion is that the legal right on a Right of Way is to travel along it. it would be reasonable in that case to be able to do things at the time to facilitate that travel.

There is no right to do other things on a Right of Way than travel along it. That would include attending a Right of Way just to clear it.

Pedantic for sure but I have a few years experience dealing with pedantic law.

Speaking as a farmer with several rights of way on our land, provided they made a tidy job of it I would be grateful. We have one long path with a small style about half a mile from the road. This has hawthorn/blackthorn hedges on either side of the style. It often gets overgrown in Spring/summer. I have cleared it at least three times this year. However, I haven't been up that way for a few weeks and it's probably overgrown again.

The things that annoy me are people who ignore the three signs that politely ask them to keep to the footpath and keep their dogs on a lead.

Yes I'm sure you have better things to do with your time (time is money to a business) than to maintain paths to the same standard we might expect in urban parks.

As a walker I accept that little used paths get overgrown and it's not difficult to tell the difference between years of neglect and a few weeks of seasonal growth. 

However I also appreciate it when signposts and maintenance make it easy to stick to the official right of way, nothing more annoying than getting shouted at for trespassing when I was doing my very best to follow a poorly defined right of way.

And some local authorities are firmly on the side of landowners...

I've been involved in working in the outdoors for many years and this includes work for our national park and helping our ROW officer & Area rangers in footpath  issues clearances.   I've also dealt with a number of illegal obstructions to PROWs.  

There is NO law on what you can or  cannot take to clear a PROW and there is NO law to stop someone returning or going to a ROW which is obstructed and  removing,  "...anything that impedes  free access over the whole of the  highway....etc., *   So if a tree falls over a PROW a pair of sacateurs or a small folding saw won't be of any use.   I've taken a chainsaw to clear fallen trees as have many others.  (If you cannot remove an obstruction then you are entitled to go around it even if this means you have to tresspass! - This is why many farmers will remove fallen trees and other obvious obstructions themselves, although I'm sure the practice varies in different parts of the country.  *(see my last paragraph)

Perhaps you might find it useful and interesting  to look up a few of these cases which outline the general principles of what might constitute an obstruction;-

R v Matthias (1861)

Seekings v Clark (1961)  It was held that ..."anything which substantially prevents the public from having free access over the whole of the highway which is not purely temporary in nature is an unlawful obstruction"

Durham CC v Scott (1990)

Devon CC v Gateway foodmarkets Ltd  It wa held that supermarket trolleys left for the convenience of shoppers on a pedestrian precing constitued an obstruction...

Deliberately obstructing a highway is a crime by statute (Section 137 of the Highways Act 1980) and  this has also been includd in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 and the courts can enforce removal of an obstruction so placed.

I appreciate your comments regarding only carrying a pari of secateurs or small saw, and that the Criminal Justice Act 1988  (and more recent legislation ?)  makes it an offence to  carry 'blades or other such items such as billhooks (ho ho), slashers, axes and so on...  ...unless you have "Good reason or Lawful  authority", for having such items.....  I'd suggest that taking an axe or slasher to your local footpath which is blocked by overhanging bushes, nettles, or other obstructions then you won't get into trouble unless of course you damage someone elses property whilst clearing  a way through a  PROW.  You have the defence under Criminal Damage Act 71 (?) that you needed to clear a PROW. - Its called 'Self Help".  rather than complaining  to the landowner, , the local council the highway authority NP, or others.  Who may not have the resources or money to do much about it.

Godwin's quote from the Surry CC website is probably technically correct.  But I've yet to see  or hear of a case where an individual or group has been successfully prosecuted for removing an obstruction which reasonably prevents someone from using the whole of a PROW.  (I have just asked our local NP Highways expert and she doesn't know of a case).

I live in a NP and `i also live next to many footpaths which are NOT in the NP, and are underfunded by the CC.  They are hardly likely to take action agains an individual or individuals taking a chainsaw onto a PROW provided the work was done to allow 'reasonable', access across a PROW.   Indeed, only three days ago a largish tree fell across the road. near my house.  Rather than preventing a lot of people go about their lawful business my neighbour and myself  (we went equipped....took our chainsaws and started to remove the said tree which was preventing all but the most robust 4X4 from passing.  Eventually the local highways department turned up and helped us remove the tree.

And of course we helped ourselves to the timber which the highways employees didn't really want to dispose of.



 

Unfortunately, almost nobody uses a map, or some other guide. Virtually all our footpaths are along hedges, so easy to follow.

We don't get many people who aren't locals. If someone asks me if it's OK if they walk over something that isn't a public footpath I usually say that's OK, but the permission doesn't apply to anyone else. Most people are OK, but there is a small group who think they are entitled to go anywhere they want.

Our local authority (Cheshire East) is a total pain. As an example, one of their ladder styles fell down, so I repaired it. I rang the Council saying I had fixed it. I got a total rollicking for interfering with one of their styles.

Perhaps the council is frightened of being blamed if they are thought responsible if an accident resulted from poor work.

Thank you for your informative reply, more knowledge is good.

However it does not really explain why the Ramblers and Surrey CC, seem to say differently. 

Leaving aside Surrey CC, personally I consider the Ramblers as too emollient with landowners. My local group, mend stiles, which is clearly the duty of the Landowner. IMO, the ramblers should be pushing the landowners to maintain stiles.

Many people think a stile is there, to allow people to cross the fence/wall, I did, it brings a startling change of perspective when one learns the stile is there to allow the fence to cross the PROW.

You sound on the whole to be a decent landowner. Out of interest, have you read Nick Hayes book, Trespass, it would be interesting to hear a landowners perspective on it.

If say a pair of cyclists tapped on your door, and asked to camp in a corner of one of your fields, what would be your genuine instinctive response be?

OSS also have a very different perspective - nationwide, clearly argued and perhaps more activist. 

For example, to summarise/simplify, their view on stiles would be for removal (with clear and sensible exceptions.... they're not stupid about keeping livestock contained.) Possibly replace with gates. 

On the other hand, I've heard good things of the Rambler's "report a problem" system - which I ought to look into/try out. OSS seem to be more about keen individuals with excellent local knowledge and clear understanding of the rules and how to get improvements. 

Y

Who or what is the OSS?

Since I am both a cyclist and a "Wild camper" I would say yes, but don't go in a field with livestock and take all your rubbish home.

assume it's  the Open Spaces Society (see  https://www.oss.org.uk/ )

👍

Ah, so not the outdoor pursuits division of AL Quedea.

Nor indeed the "Office of Strategic Studies" - definitely a group that always "went equipped".

Interesting thread. I recently raised two similar issues with my local authority. One response was that they would go and take a look at what work was needed before remedying the issue (significant overgrowth plus a barbed wire fence having been installed either side of the narrow and very overgrown path) - haven't heard back as yet, that was a couple of weeks ago. For the other (crops being allowed to grow over the right of way, plus a collapsed stile) they said they had contacted the landowner and reminded them of their responsibilities (nothing has yet been done to clear the path or repair the stile, couple of weeks on). 

I'd have thought a machete or cordless strimmer would be perfectly reasonable, but maybe give them a chance to sort it themselves first, via the Council's highways department (who have the responsibility of oversight).

As someone else has suggested - if there's an accident the finger will be pointed to whoever was legally responsible  for the upkeep (the 'Council'),  and by 'rollocking',  you they are making it clear that someone else - you - did the work and not the council.    I have no idea how this would pan out in a court.

If its any consolation , we. have many many stone paths (trods) on the NYM.  Many of these are uneven and really quite slippy in the wet.   However the 'Park will not reset them as they fear getting sued if anyone subsequently trips up AND can point the finger of blame on the park's work.   Their legal stance at the moment is that they are only responsible for making the paths passable  and open and as the condition of the trods does not prevent the paths from being used or, accessed.  Why take the risk of interfering with the trods?

I like the sound of your local Ramblers group, time spent in the fresh air working with like minded people is far more pleasurable than stamping your foot and insisting that someone else should do it

Quite!!

IIRC you are a Sheep Farmer, so I guess you will like Ramblers mending the stiles that you should as the Landowner be maintaining. Saves you the money and effort

Got to admit, it's got about 45 more responses than I thought it would

On my side of the Peak I reported via the local authority a blockage by a fallen tree on a bridleway (very good brakes on my MTB fortunately!) and they were on it in no time, someone with a chainsaw cleared it all. Impressively rapid response and either North East Derbyshire district council or Derbyshire County Council have a good website where you mark the problem on a map, like the pothole report ones. 

They must be The Style Council. I was going to ask if you live in a town called Malice? But that was Paul Weller in the Jam, pre Style Council, so unfortunately doesn't work as well as I'd like. 😉

It's good to hear that some local authorities are populated with decent people. A few years ago a friend of ours living in a converted mill. This was near to a stream (surprise, surprise)! A storm demolished a bridge some distance away. Can't remember exactly how far, but it was several hundred yards. They hadn't checked the updated definitive map which showed the bridge directly in front of their house (the Old Mill).

This was a mistake and Cheshire East wanted to put the new bridge directly in front of their house. I have several old maps from the 1890's onwards showing the original position of the bridge. The Council banned the owners of the house from contacting Cheshire East's elected representatives to discuss this. The new bridge was installed and the Council arranged a police guard the occupants from speaking to the installers.  

I am not a fan of the state, any authority tbh, however I am struggling with the concept that a council can ban a person from speaking with a councillor or MP.

Ours are all gates and nobody else has ever needed to fix them but thank you for offering

I just don't see the point in either party being a duck about it.  A bit of cooperation can achieve a lot.

You don't like authority, you expect someone to enforce the maintenance of footpaths and you don't believe that volunteers should cooperate to get the job done.

How on earth does tour world work?

You want the fence, you maintain the stile/gate, it is very simple.
I never said I do not believe volunteers should not cooperate, just that they should not expend limited resources on maintaining stiles or gates for landowners. Clearing paths is a jolly good thing, and I was just surprised that the Ramblers and certain councils believe that one needs permission to go specifically to do this. However as Yanchik  would have maybe zipped through a wheat field with their strimmer clearing a 3 mtr path, or some people may come on your land “clearing” trees, and taking the wood home for their log burner it makes sense.
Ps, your polite notice about staying to paths, is from my perspective, a passive aggressive way of saying stay off my land, you can only walk the PROW.
On dogs, as a person who has had dogs since birth, I do symapathise with Farmers, too many people nowadays see dogs as surrogate children and let them run wild, which I am sure must be a total PITA, particularly on popular paths near urban areas, and do not get me on professional dog walkers, a job that should not exist.
Right, its a lovely day, and I have to go to studying in Manchester, after a Flu and Covid jab , I hope you have a nicer day on your farm. 

All this is covered in Section 130.  Let your local Authority know and they will contact the landowner. Especially if it has become largely overgrown and needs a good cutback rather than a quick chop. Then you know it's noted as a blocked path and will require action by the landowner.  Doesn't prevent you from moving stuff blocking your progress on a path on your travels.

Regarding stiles. They do have to confirm to regs, and the authority will check it.  Depending on the council depends on how much it costs. But in most cases it is subsidised (where its a standard item like a gate etc) so its not going to cost much to the landowner. Sometimes just the VAT element which they can claim back anyway.  I know that an officer advised me that if I put in a new stile it had to be a certain type, which they could supply if I fitted it. 

Yeah, don't think so pal, "maybe"'s doing a lot of work in your sentence given I did the work of checking, came straight back saying I was wrong and have contributed some informative sources. Not sure I really stand as the archetype of Mr Thoughtlessly Militant Enforcer here. 

Y

Well, mate, you disappoint me, I was imagining black clad ninjas of the OSS scything the fields on a Jihad of clearance, whilst singing, The Manchester Rambler.

From your Pal, Godwin 

How could they actually do this - leaving aside the fact that they clearly have no real power to do it?

Love it - inspirational picture, perhaps I should ! Hope the jabs aren't having too much after-effect. 

Y

I went for the 'just crack on' approach. Spent 40 ml ins tonight just doing the first bit of blackthorn clearing and now got a path through to the stile which is suitable. Just used loppers and a folding saw. 

The next bit, all jokes aside I think does need a machete.

​​​​Lots of scratches and nettle stings but feel I've achieved something

Little update on my 2-3 month old query, the local authority finally got back to me “It’s on the list.” Ironically cuts have made cuts delayed (broken down equipment throwing the schedule out). 
 

Extra nuance, the local authority is responsible for the ground cover but not the bounding hedge. When I asked for landowner details to get that done, they were cagey, “we’ll handle it.” And now the nettles are dying back anyway.

Summarised here with link to highway authority responsibilities. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-rights-of-way-landowner-responsibilities...

The Rights of Way A Guide to Law and Practice (ther Blue Bible), after discussing a few cases re the 'remedy of abatement' for a user of a highway (including Seaton v Slama), says: ',,,it would not be unreasonable for a walker to take with them a pair of pocket secateurs and that they will not be acting unlawfully if they use them to clear vegetation that impedes progress along a path' Provided they do no more than necessary to make their way conveniently along the path', 

If it falls inside Derbyshire CC, use their mapping tool to check if it's a public right of way (PRoW) or not

https://maps.derbyshire.gov.uk/connect/analyst/mobile/#/main?mapcfg=Ordnanc...

Add the layer/option for PRoW.

If it's a PRoW it's the responsibility of the highways officer (which is Derbyshire CC) to maintain it. They'll be round swiftly 🤣🤣🤣🤣. But if it is a PRoW report it anyway.

Very public spirited of you if you discretely clear it a bit!