Loading Notifications...

MRT & covid19: Conistone MRT narrative

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
 yorkshire_lad2 12 May 2020

From Conistone Mountain Rescue

What happens in a rescue by MRT, and probably why we should think carefully before rushing off to the Lake District (and similar places) on Wednesday:

https://www.facebook.com/ConistonMountainRescueTeam/posts/3781575878550340

but I'm probably singing to the choir here.

Post edited at 14:47
Report
 jockster 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

What an excellent description of the reality and implications of opening countryside to soon.

I am fully prepared to be shot down for this... but is it worth people sending this to their MP?

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to jockster:

What can they do?

Bojo has basically put this in the hands of the public and said be sensible. 

People will go hiking. 

This is going to last months to years, I'm not sure 'don't come here' will work after the government announcement. You just have to hope people hike sensibly and minimize risks.

Report
 Guy Hurst 12 May 2020
In reply to jockster:

Probably best not to. It might prompt some MPs to call for a closure of all paths above the fell wall, or suggest some sort of insurance scheme or the like.

Report
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

That’s very sobering.

Report
 ballsac 12 May 2020
In reply to jockster:

no, its not.

its a time for serious consideration about the risks we run - i, for example, won't be climbing, or scrambling, or doing some fearsome MBT route in the arse end of nowhere - but MRT's are volunteers, if they decide that my, or anyone elses, stupidity is not a matter for them to pick up the pieces of with i wouldn't begrudge them one bit, and the hills are not theirs to close.

i would certainly support an MRT message that their responses to requests for help may be minimal or non-existant, and to ask that people think very carefully about their ability to get themselves out of trouble - but the hills are not their hills to open and close as they see fit. just as i'm big and ugly enough to make decisions about being at work, or going into shops, or carrying some old boys shopping to his car because obviously can't manage it, i'm big and ugly enough to decide for myself about the risks and rewards of a day in the hills.

Report
 joem 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

Just seen this post on facebook and discussed it with my girlfriend who's a doctor and has been working on a ward dealing with Covid-19. 

The main problem with it seems to be the idea that the team would have to self isolate if the initial casualty had a positive test come back. they wouldn't otherwise every doctor who ever came into contact with a Covid casualty would have to self isolate and very quickly there'd be no doctors in any hospital anywhere which clearly hasn't happened. You would currently only be asked to self isolate if you were either symptomatic or had a positive test (you'd only get one of these if you were symptomatic but that's another discussion).  Also of course the ambulance staff wouldn't self isolate how do they think there is a single ambulance left in the country.

There's probably some very good reasons not to go mob the lake district but I do wish that MRTs would not spread misinformation there's enough of that flying round as it is.  

Report
 Skip 12 May 2020
In reply to ballsac:

>  but the hills are not their hills to open and close as they see fit. just as i'm big and ugly enough to make decisions about being at work, or going into shops, or carrying some old boys shopping to his car because obviously can't manage it, i'm big and ugly enough to decide for myself about the risks and rewards of a day in the hills.

Exactly

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to joem:

Yeah, my wife is an MD, so all her friends are in the ICUs now, she's starting back soon.

There will be no isolating after treating positive patients. She'll come home and be with our family and back to other patients.

I think they should say rescues will be longer and more of an issue though. Resources will certainly be depleted, a shortage of PPE. But I'm not sure just not visiting will happen.

What if Edale say that? Then Woodhead? Where do people go for the next 1-2 years.

I just had a talk in my zoom class by a local pharma company. They said January 2021 is the earliest they think a vaccine will be out then months to years to vaccinate.

Report
 The Lemming 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

A very sobering OP to read. However this bit made me chuckle, in a dark humour way.

20. Paul’s Covid-19 test comes back positive. Oh dear! Paul is asymptomatic, he has the virus but is either naturally immune or has not yet developed symptoms. The message is passed back to Coniston MRT, who then have to check the records of those on the incident. Every one of them, the ten people on the incident and the base controller, must now self isolate and so must their families, so now we have maybe 35 people all having to self-isolate. Plus possibly the Ambulance crew and their families.

Its the bit about the Ambulance Service crew and families self-isolating when they come into contact with a confirmed Covid 19 patient. That part is pure fiction and made me chuckle.

However the rest of the story should, and will, make most people stop and think about turning off the M6 to The lakes because Boris said they could.

But not everybody has or knows what common sense is.

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

Why is it not common sense?

If you live in Preston to drive for an hour and go for an easy 2-3 hr hike?

Report
 The Lemming 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Why is it not common sense?

> If you live in Preston to drive for an hour and go for an easy 2-3 hr hike?


I give up.

Just wish I had an appropriate emoji to use.

Report
 Planeandsimple 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

> What happens in a rescue by MRT, and probably why we should think carefully before rushing off to the Lake District (and similar places) on Wednesday:

You mean stay alert

Report
 timjones 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

It would be far simpler if MR announced that they will not be performing rescues for the foreseeable future and left us to make our own decisions.

If they choose to carry on as normal they should not be use it as an excuse to tell the rest of us not to excercise in the hills.

Report
 The Lemming 12 May 2020
In reply to timjones:

> It would be far simpler if MR announced that they will not be performing rescues for the foreseeable future and left us to make our own decisions.

Ultimately any rescue is the responsibility of the Police. Mountain Rescue are very capable and experienced people who love what they do, but if their resources are depleted because of accidents on the hill, then it is what it is and the Police have the responsibility to rescue the casualty by using what resources they have at their disposal.

I believe that the Police are also under resourced and under funded at the moment?

Report
 rogerwebb 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

> Its the bit about the Ambulance Service crew and families self-isolating when they come into contact with a confirmed Covid 19 patient. That part is pure fiction and made me chuckle.

In the absence of PPE would that still be the case? 

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

So you can’t explain why its ok to drive to a destination like Edale, but not say walk on the Howgills?

Don’t blame me. This is Boris’s plan.

i just don’t really see the difference.

Report
 SouthernSteve 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

No such thing as common sense. There are wild fantasies and logical reasoning based on the best information available (and everything in between). Most of what people consider common sense is learned behaviour from our life experiences, parents, family and peers. Risk adversity obviously does differ between individuals and may have different influences.

Boris should have presumed the worst of the British people in relation to their personal behaviour. He might then have been pleasantly surprised! I feel he is going to be quite disappointed and this will make those people who are terrified of the situation (I spoke to one client today who has taken 3 months off work to avoid problems) less likely to return to whatever the new normal is.

In the Dales they are opening the car parks and loo's from Wednesday and the locals are quite upset. No services are ready for them, but to not open these up when a good influx of people is probably inevitable might cause increased chances of lack of social distancing. 

For local services and for people to consider their business responses. It would have been better to say in 2 weeks we will open the countryside rather than in 2 days, but that is spilt milk now.

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Is it really the worst?

this is going to last months to years.

are you not going to access remote terrain for that time?

genuine question. I’ve not traveled outside of 25 minutes from my house. But will as we relax rules here. I’ll be more careful but I won’t wait until 2022 to go trail running and hiking.

will you?

They made the decision based on risk of transmission in outdoor settings. 
 

any of us, anytime we’re away from a road, or potential rescues. I see some vocal on Facebook then off running up x fell themselves.

Report
 StuDoig 12 May 2020
In reply to joem:

Hi Joem, isolation after exposure is certainly the guidance given to us in MRTs at the moment - docs, paramedics etc are treated differently as no practicable alternative given their occupation.  The guidance has been put together by docs including public health specialists so it's certainly well informed.  Though teams are now eligible for testing if they display symptoms so may be less than 14 days via that route.  Just thought I'd clear that up as what's written by the team here is correct.

Cheers!

Stu

Report
 Andy Hardy 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> Why is it not common sense?

> If you live in Preston to drive for an hour and go for an easy 2-3 hr hike?

It's less sensible than going for a 10 minute drive for an easy hike. Or hiking from your door. South lakes is already badly hit, why go out of your way to make it worse?

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Because government advice is outside transmission is a minimal risk.

If you don't get gas, drive there and back, no food. They are very clear that there are no regional limits to travel within England.

Whether they should or not is their call.

But I don't think we should be shaming and saying people lack common sense if they travelled from Lancaster and went for an easy hike in say the Howgills. For me that seems sensible. My view here is I limit myself to 30 minutes, if there's more than 2-3 cars at a trail head I visit another one. I don't hit popular areas unless its an unsociable hour or bad weather. We just had snow in May, so I used that to get out on my local 2000ft mountain as I knew it would be quiet.

Post edited at 17:20
Report
 joem 12 May 2020
In reply to StuDoig:

Fair enough, this seems to be out  of step with the advice given to the rest of the public? 

But I'll admit this is confusing at the best of times.

Report
In reply to SouthernSteve:

> In the Dales they are opening the car parks and loo's from Wednesday and the locals are quite upset. 

I know a manager in YDNP , these are their biggest source of revenue. It's run appallingly in terms of budgets, staff and efficiency. It's like a little club for well meaning but often wholly unqualified people. Most are living in a dream world and local consideration is often the last thing on their mind. 

Post edited at 17:17
Report
 SouthernSteve 12 May 2020
In reply to summo:

Interesting insight!

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

What happens on an easy hike if you break your ankle?

Lemming too?

These things happen anywhere. If I'm running in burbage valley from my parents house in sheffield and I slip and break an ankle it is a rescue.

Are people saying no exercise away from roads until we have a mass vaccination program?

Report
 SouthernSteve 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

You and probably I will go for run/hike (you much faster than me) and be quite isolated, but others will pile in to the hot spots and need facilities including toilets, food halls etc and might venture onto a hill ill-equipped and more likely to be rescued. There is a considerable difference between Ambleside or Stratford-upon-Avon on a weekend, where everyone is going for a pleasant walk in 'the countryside'  or Castleton in the Peak and finding a lonely spot to have self-isolated exercise. If there had been more notice about what is expected - what is the HSE requirement for your staff, can you buy the additional cleaning / washing materials and get some training done etc then yes go ahead and this would all be more acceptable. What many people will interpret Mr Johnson to have said is carry on as before.
 

Post edited at 17:37
Report
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

Fully understand the MRT point of view and respect whatever they think is right, but if I lived in England I'd go climbing anyway and either accept death or call a friend. I never expect mountain rescue to be there, it's a bonus. Perhaps it's time for climbers to form their own ad-hoc mountain rescue teams just in case the real deal is unavailable. For example, you might have an agreement with several climber friends to come and rescue you if shit hits the fan. Sure, your chance of survival or recovery will be much reduced, but it's better than no rescue at all! I for one don't care if I get coronovirus, so i would happily go and rescue a stranger if they needed me to.

Report
 SouthernSteve 12 May 2020
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

I just think there's a lack of understanding that this is life now, not just for 12 weeks but years.

I don't think people just won't go hiking for the next two years, possibly longer. We hope a vaccine is ready but it's entirely possible we are years off.

MRT's either need to stand down or find ways to mitigate the risk.  The government call has obviously caught them by surprise but I'm not sure just 'don't come here' will work when Bojo was quite clear there is no limit to day trip travel. But it is also the UK, if he'd have used the french 100km limit, that wouldn't actually change things too much. Limit Manchester to 100km and they'd flood Bowland, the Peak and North Yorkshire. I don't think its fair to expect people in the massive urban conurbations just not to travel for the next 1-3 years.

I think we'll all be more aware, more risk averse, hopefully travel less, but I doubt many if us are willing to not get out and feel that sense of isolation for the next 2-3 years. 

Report
 Andy Hardy 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> What happens on an easy hike if you break your ankle?

> Lemming too?

> These things happen anywhere. If I'm running in burbage valley from my parents house in sheffield and I slip and break an ankle it is a rescue.

> Are people saying no exercise away from roads until we have a mass vaccination program?

What do you think the capacity of say Langdale is, in terms of car parking, toilets etc remembering that public transport will be limited / AWOL? Yes the fells are a huge area but within that there are pinch points which are shared by lots of visitors and locals.

1 visitor no problem.

1000000 visitors big problem.

I guess we have a different idea whereabouts on that scale we'll end up on Saturday.

Final point: if we see a big spike in cases in about 3 weeks, we will have wasted all the lockdown pain and anguish of the last 6 weeks.

Is it worth it, for 2 hours easy hiking?

Report
 mattyP 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

What about those who don’t live with an easy hike nearby? Do they just not hike?

This is one of the things that is an issue; that if you are town or city based you might not be able to hike from your door. And the government have said travel to exercise is ok, but the countryside councils are putting out the message they are closed. So who do people follow? If I lived in inner city Manchester or Leeds then the prospect of being in the countryside would extremely enticing. Particularly as it probably seems a better option than overcrowded city parks. 
 

Report
 Ridge 12 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

> Perhaps it's time for climbers to form their own ad-hoc mountain rescue teams just in case the real deal is unavailable.

That is exactly how MRTs started out. They're not part of the emergency services.

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Hold on you are mixing up issues. Re capacity. That's always been an issue. Charge for access to the lakes? People will leave the towns and cities. Where should they go then? 

The Government advise to get out and travel was based on the science that transmission is low once you are hiking whilst social distancing. Do you have science that contradicts that? 

The spike will undoubtably be from work/school/transport exposure and not hiking.

There will be another wave. It is unavoidable. We'll have wave after wave for the next 2-3 years until a vaccine. The impact of hikers on that wave will be minimal.

Post edited at 18:24
Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

lemming, can you answer a question, will you bike, climb or hike in areas away from the road for the next 2 years until we get a vaccine?

So far you've dropped into snipe at people but offered no constructive guidance.

What will you do?

Report
 Andy Hardy 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

My point was that even if there is lots of space on the fells, there are still lots of pinch points where social distancing falls away, starting at the point where everybody has to park, then go through the same gates etc. 

As for constructive ideas I would be much more likely to go for a hike if there was serious attempts being made to test everyone with symptoms, force those with the virus to quarantine and to track and trace their contacts.

We can't stop the world, but we can't just let it rip.

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

But even those pinch points are low risk if we wear masks, outdoors transmission outside of a few feet is extremely low. But also if you take responsibility and try to get to quiet areas. I never leave my house with a set plan. I head out to an area of 30-40 square miles and hit 3-4 trail heads/minor roads. I'll find somewhere quiet. And I'm an hour from Boston. 

In understand the UK is weeks behind the rest of the world in the mask idea but here I face a $300 fine if I'm around people without a mask. That can be a buff pulled up to stop large liquid droplets being expelled.

Report
 The Lemming 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

>  What will you do?

>  What is the point arguing with you?

You went off at a tangent with your very first comment to me. I initially replied to a very well written appeal from a member of the MRT.

You then post

>  Why is it not common sense?

You never mentioned what you were referring to with "Why is it not common sense?"

You did not even give me a clue. I merely mentioned that not everybody has or knows what common sense is.

>  If you live in Preston to drive for an hour and go for an easy 2-3 hr hike?

I don't have any issues with driving from Preston to go on a 2-3 hr walk. Amuricans hike, us Brits walk. I was responding to an article where a hypothetical individual went walking up a hill, breaks a leg and then has to be carried off the hill by a local MRT who hypothetically or in reality were working under exceptional times with lack of PPE and a team that could include people in a vulnerable category when exposed to Covid 19. The article then went on to paint a picture of most of that team having to Stand-Down because the hypothetical casualty had Covid 19 from the outset.

Accidents happen and people need rescuing, but from that hypothetical story it would seem that anybody else after the initial casualty would be screwed because there were not enough MTR members left to evacuate a casualty in a remote location.

Somebody doing a 2-3 hr walk near to relative assistance from the emergency services, when the MRT are indisposed seems like common sense to me, would you not agree?

Have I sniped enough yet?

I ignored you because you made no sense with you outbursts to an argument that you probably started in your internal narrative, to which I was not party to.

Go argue with somebody else.

Post edited at 19:56
Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

So you've got no feedback as usual. You've posted all that and just been rude and not actually addressed anything. Brilliant. You've bothered to post 100 words of bollox..

So will you go for a walk, bike or run? "But not everybody has or knows what common sense is."

So why is it not common sense to be out in the outdoors, following government advice. All rescue teams will be struggling. Edale? Woodhead? They all have the same vulnerable people, the same lack of PPE. 

We are all potential accidents.  

"

Accidents happen and people need rescuing, but from that hypothetical story it would seem that anybody else after the initial casualty would be screwed because there were not enough MTR members left to evacuate a casualty in a remote location.

Somebody doing a 2-3 hr walk near to relative assistance from the emergency services, when the MRT are indisposed seems like common sense to me, would you not agree?

Have I sniped enough yet?

I ignored you because you made no sense with you outbursts to an argument that you probably started in your internal narrative, to which I was not party to."

So in all this. Blah blah blah rubbish. Will you walk, or hike, or bike, or tramp, or run, away from a road. You ignored me because it is what you do. You post trash and just snipe at people from a position of anonymity. It's easy to say these people who go to the lakes have no common sense but they are following government advice and we will all be out (well most of us), just those who have accidents are the irresponsible ones.  

So will you be out on the moors? Just try and answer?

Post edited at 20:18
Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2: What's confusing is the mixed messaging within MRT posts. This is from Edale. This seems much more sensible and in line with Government advice. Go out, be more cautious, take responsibility.

https://www.facebook.com/edalemountainrescue/?__tn__=%2Cd%2CP-R&eid=ARBXd9U-wYJCF9g5ilLg-ytWaUrLEJ4PYCw9QEwhivEqM0L7NVOeoCLg6Rlm1gNqucYy-X2iKWGdZdiK

"Mountain Rescue England and Wales

Mountain Rescue advises caution as lockdown eases in England:

Mountain Rescue teams in both England and Wales are anticipating an increase in callouts as lockdown regulations are eased, firstly, in England with the changes announced on Sunday, and later in Wales if the situation changes.

“We’d like to thank everyone who has stayed at home and kept themselves and MR volunteers safe in recent weeks,” said Mike France, SEO (Senior Executive Officer) of MREW, “but we know that this is going to change as lockdown is reduced. On call outs, our volunteers will still need to take precautions with every casualty, assuming them to be positive with COVID-19. They need to do this to stay safe and well themselves and to ensure that teams are available when needed through the summer.”

“Any surge in visitors and call outs is going to put a huge additional pressure on mountain rescue volunteers, in addition to the extra work of using PPE and stringent cleaning of kit and vehicles. It is essential that everyone heading for the hills takes responsibility for their own safety, and should be aware that mountain rescue response times will be longer because of the additional preparations needed.”

In recent years, mountain rescuers have played an important role in spreading the #BeAdventureSmart messages. These focus on planning ahead for forecast weather conditions, wearing and carrying the right clothing and equipment and having the skills and expertise for a planned route. These will be even more important this summer and with an additional factor.

“No matter how much exercise people have been taking at home, in their gardens or local to home during lockdown, most of them may not be as hill fit as they were three months ago,” said Mike. “Anyone planning a day out in the hills needs to break themselves in gradually, not do too much and plan a route that is well within their current capabilities.”

“Basically, in England there is a change from stay at home to stay alert and people can travel to undertake exercise, whilst in Wales the regulations have not changed and although you can exercise more than once a day it is only from your home. This difference is really important to understand.”

Be Adventure Smart during the COVID-19 outbreak:
https://www.adventuresmart.uk/

Report
 The Lemming 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> So will you be out on the moors? Just try and answer?

Whatever.

There is just no way to discuss with a closed mind.

Laters 

Report
 Roadrunner6 12 May 2020
In reply to The Lemming:

Haha, why is my mind closed. I asked a question. You seem happy to criticise others yet won't say if you yourself will partake in outdoor activities.

I do. I'm staying local, avoiding popular destinations, being more cautious. But this is here for 6-12 months at the very minimum (likely 1-2+ years). I'm not sure why that is having a closed mind, I'd say it's open to the new normal.

Like with the HIV epidemic I think we will all have to re-think our risks. But for me I'm not willing to no longer get outside. And as much as I dislike Bojo, his advice was pretty clear and does seem based in science. The risk of transmission outdoors, when socially distancing is low.

Post edited at 21:04
Report
 Mr Messy 12 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Went out for a run today across the moors. Iwas very impressed. Lots of families out walking, people stepping away off the path to let people pass. Lots of hellos, lots of watching the lambs and birds by kids and adults Yes impressed how sensible people were through all those potential bottle necks. I also agree it is going to be here for a good long while. 

Report
 pec 12 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> My point was that even if there is lots of space on the fells, there are still lots of pinch points where social distancing falls away, starting at the point where everybody has to park, then go through the same gates etc. 

What do people do when they go to supermarket car parks at the moment?

Based on my visits they mostly use their common sense. If the person from the car next door is standing close they wait until they've moved off or got back into their car, they patiently join the queue outside the supermarket all 2m apart, they wait until someone has picked what they want off the shelves before moving to the shelf themselves etc etc.

We cannot wrap ourselves up in cotton wool until we've all been vaccinated. The risk in a carpark in Langdale is almost certainly less than in the car park at Sainsbury's because the throughput of people is lower.

The government have relaxed the rules on outdoor exercise because there is abundant evidence that the risk is tiny and the risk in the Lakes, Peak etc is smaller than in a city park.

Report
 Tringa 13 May 2020
In reply to SouthernSteve:

Given that the Government decided to announce the - you can exercise for as long as you like and you can drive any distance to do so - without any consultation with any rural local authority, any parks authority, any local community groups or any of MRTs, I think the BMCs piece is very good.

Unfortunately, it is largely preaching to the converted who will be sensible; others will not and we might get scenes like that on Pen-y-Pass a few weeks ago.

Dave

Report
 pec 13 May 2020
In reply to Tringa:

> Unfortunately, it is largely preaching to the converted who will be sensible; others will not and we might get scenes like that on Pen-y-Pass a few weeks ago.

This is probably true but I do wonder whether those Pen-y-Pass type events actually caused any increase in transmission or whether it just didn't 'look' great?

Report
 Timothy 13 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

"I for one don't care if I get coronovirus" That is fine, you might not even get symptoms, you might be happy to die from it knowing you have helped another. But you might transmit it to one of your family/household who dies from it. Do you care about that? Sorry I don't know your social situation, if you live with anyone, but if you take this attitude and generalise it across a community, there-in lies the problem.

Report
 Andy Hardy 13 May 2020
In reply to pec:

I've been thinking about the general relaxation in the govt. "advice", and why I'm worried.

Basically, the govt. has no general testing, tracing, quarantine systems in place for *anyone* showing symptoms.  To me they are effectively just letting the virus take its course and if you die, tough.

I can see that hiking, climbing etc are probably low transmission risk activities, I'm reasonably fit and could probably get the virus without needing hospital treatment. But without the test - trace - isolate in place I'll pass it on (initially unknowingly) and who knows who will die as a result? 

Report
 Rory Shaw 13 May 2020

I think the key message from MR (I'm Llanberis MRT) is that capacity for rescue is much reduced. Our operational numbers have been halved, jobs will be run much slower as only one team member will be allowed in a vehicle at anyone time, so we will have further to walk to get to rescues. The level of medical care that we can give is reduced, including changes to CPR, use of airway adjuncts, analgesics etc.

Helicopter provision is much reduced and may not even attend in life threatening injuries. Time taken to get casualties off the hill will be much increased.

Its important that people understand this as part of their decision making on the hill and in their planning.

Report
In reply to Timothy:

Obviously it's not ideal, however, in the context of either safeguarding my own health or letting someone die on a hillside, it's an easy choice. I'd argue it's better to risk potentially transmitting COVID than let someone die on a hill from a broken ankle. Also, no one in my household is at risk. We're both young and fit, so no worries there.

Post edited at 11:35
Report
 Tringa 13 May 2020
In reply to joem:

> Just seen this post on facebook and discussed it with my girlfriend who's a doctor and has been working on a ward dealing with Covid-19. 

> The main problem with it seems to be the idea that the team would have to self isolate if the initial casualty had a positive test come back. they wouldn't otherwise every doctor who ever came into contact with a Covid casualty would have to self isolate and very quickly there'd be no doctors in any hospital anywhere which clearly hasn't happened. You would currently only be asked to self isolate if you were either symptomatic or had a positive test (you'd only get one of these if you were symptomatic but that's another discussion).  Also of course the ambulance staff wouldn't self isolate how do they think there is a single ambulance left in the country.

> There's probably some very good reasons not to go mob the lake district but I do wish that MRTs would not spread misinformation there's enough of that flying round as it is.  


Accepted and your girlfriend obviously knows more than most of us here, including me.

I think it is more an issue of perception and understandable concern. Suppose an MRT hears/is informed that someone they rescued has tested positive. It is reasonable for them to be concerned they might have contracted Covid19 during the rescue, where they were in close contact with the patient for, perhaps, a number of hours.

I could be wrong but I don't think at present there is any way the MRT team could get tested. Being concerned for their own safety and that of family and friends is understandable.

Dave

Report
 joem 13 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I can see that hiking, climbing etc are probably low transmission risk activities, I'm reasonably fit and could probably get the virus without needing hospital treatment. But without the test - trace - isolate in place I'll pass it on (initially unknowingly) and who knows who will die as a result? 

Compared to people cramming on public transport to go back to work this will make sod all difference. so you'd only be not climbing to make a point. I'd suggest that your point might be valid but that you (one) may as well enjoy yourself.

Report
 joem 13 May 2020
In reply to Tringa:

I wouldn't disagree with most of that. I've been told elsewhere that Mountain Rescue Teams have had differing advice to health professionals, I just feel that there is a huge danger in sharing inaccurate information from official team accounts at the moment there's a huge about of deliberate misinformation doing the rounds at the moment without well meaning stuff from official looking sources feeding the fires. If the above post had put things the way you have I'd have never commented on it.

Report
 The Lemming 13 May 2020
In reply to Rory Shaw:

I don't think you could paint a more realistic and stark picture than this for people to realise that help may not come from MRT or helicopter services.

Report
 wercat 13 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

I have suffered a dislocated ankle, foot popped right off at a really strange ankle and then about half a minute later it popped back on while I was practically being sick with the pain.  While sitting recovering Gerry Akroyd and a client group passed by with some wry smiles at the state of me.

I discovered that I could move with the aid of walking poles and managed to get the 2 miles back to Sligachan on my own.  At the moment I'd be going out well equipped for self rescue as I have in several situations already (dislocated fingars etc.  I'd also avoid running down steep slopes at the moment (not that I've ever had a mishap on these).  There is a risk of needing help but it is possible to take steps to prevent the need for a callout and I am going to minimise risks when I return to the fells.

there was some thought I might have broken the ankle when I finally got to see a doctor 2 days later back home but as I thought it was a dislocation and very bad sprain.

So I'd definitely advise the carrying of poles at the moment as without them I would have had to been carried the 2 miles or so to Sligachan from the incident on my descent from Pinnacle Ridge.

Report
 Rory Shaw 13 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

You maybe young and fit and at low risk of getting seriously sick - but that doesn't mean you cant give it to someone who is neither young or fit. It's not just about personally avoiding COVID19, its about decreasing transmission.

Report
 Andy Hardy 13 May 2020
In reply to joem:

People are not cramming onto public transport purely for enjoyment though, are they? same as with shopping - I shop because I need to eat, not because I fancy a nice trip to a supermarket.

Report
 Rory Shaw 13 May 2020
In reply to joem:

If we attend a rescue and the casualty (or a team member) is subsequently found to have COVID or symptoms of then we will not be attending subsequent rescues (for a week I think? - not certain on the time period here) to attempt to reduce transmission, both within the team and to the public.

We will also be attempting to rotate members as much as possible to reduce exposure to team members.

It should also be considered that the risk of COVID transmission is a 2 way thing - the casualty is at risk of getting it from an asymptomatic team member as well. Especially as there are many MRT across the UK who work in hospitals, or have partners that do so.

Report
 rogerwebb 13 May 2020
In reply to joem:

Two issues. Most MR teams are down in numbers because of exactly the calculation 'sharpend' (and I am sure others) have made. The at risk, those with family at risk, those who are essential workers are off call out lists. 

Most people working within Covid wards and in ambulances tend to have some form of PPE. That is not always the case for MR and what there is isn't designed for hill use.

These two factors make rescue more problematic. 

Its really a question of considering what happens next if you screw up. A bit of preparation can help. Be equipped to live longer, try to leave a clue as to where you might be. Assume that any rescue team is infected in the same way they will assume that you are.

Post edited at 12:47
Report
In reply to Rory Shaw:

True, but are you suggesting it's better to let people die on hill sides? I wouldn't think so given that you're MRT, so if the situation arises and I'm asked to go and save someone, you'd agree that I go and help them, even if I put myself or others at risk.

Post edited at 12:46
Report
 Rory Shaw 13 May 2020

Just want to say that I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do.

MR are not the guardians of the hills.

Mountaineering is all about being self reliant, assessing risk and mitigating that risk by making good decisions based on your technical ability and experience.

Also please remember that the rules are currently different in Wales from England in terms of accessing the hills.

Report
 Rory Shaw 13 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

No, just stating the facts as they are.

I wasn't suggesting anything.

Report
 Timothy 13 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

"I'd argue it's better to risk potentially transmitting COVID than let someone die on a hill from a broken ankle."

What happens if we change your sentence to read "I'd argue it's better to risk potentially transmitting COVID than stop doing my leisure activity." Which is what has led to the broken ankle.

I suppose this depends on where you sit on the how important is climbing to me/reducing the spread of a highly contagious disease/risking the lives of my friends spectrum.

I think your coming at it from a rescuers perspective (correct me if I'm wrong), what happens if it was you who needed the help of your friends? I'd feel pretty crap if it was me who had fallen, and had to call on my collective friends to rescue me, putting them and their loved ones at risk. Low risk doesn't mean no risk, and the symptoms can still be severe and lengthy if not needing hospital admission.

Report
 mysterion 13 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Final point: if we see a big spike in cases in about 3 weeks, we will have wasted all the lockdown pain and anguish of the last 6 weeks.

> Is it worth it, for 2 hours easy hiking?

You do realise there is no avoiding this?

So yes, it is worth it - that's the 'new normal', same as the old one.

Post edited at 13:19
Report
 joem 13 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'm not sure Covid-19 cares if you are having fun or not, lots of people are being told to go back to work who do not need to just to fuel the economy if that's Needed then I also NEED outdoor recreation. Also you have to consider that the risks just aren't comparable you can easily go for a walk in the hills and expose nobody to risk of transmission get on a crowded tube and that's unavoidable. 

Report
 Roadrunner6 13 May 2020
In reply to rogerwebb:

The issue is, these MRT posts and UKC posts won't matter for most people. They've just watched Boris on TV say what is allowed, do any of us actually look at the local MRT FB post before we head out? I wonder how Llanberis will look this weekend as I suspect many from the Chester/Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham areas will go and won't even realize Wales is different, but the Lakes/Edale etc will be flooded.  

It's easy to insult them and say they lack common sense but the PM was pretty clear. 

Report
 Roadrunner6 13 May 2020
In reply to mysterion:

Yeah we are seeing a spike, that's happening. The first aggressive, almost worldwide lock down, was also because we didn't know how bad it was, we just knew it had spread undetected for weeks to months and risked totally overwhelming health care, as we were seeing in Italy.

They are now hoping to return to a new normal and keep the R value low enough to cope. We aren't stopping spread. We're now in the dance phase if you saw that analogy.

Hiking just isn't a big risk, it'll be transport and work place environments.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Report
 timjones 13 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Final point: if we see a big spike in cases in about 3 weeks, we will have wasted all the lockdown pain and anguish of the last 6 weeks.

If we see another spike the lockdown pain will still have served the purpose of easing the pressure on the NHS. We cannot hide away forever when we have no idea when or if this is going to end.

Report
In reply to Timothy:

I suppose I may feel bad depending who had to come and get me, so I understand why MRT want to avoid that situation. I just hope we don't go too far towards 'stay in your house for 2 years and don't engage in any social activity until this virus is 100% eradicated from the country'. At some point perhaps we have to accept there will be some uncomfortable situations and decisions for all parties involved, but maybe that is the cost of allowing people to return to doing the things they love like walking/climbing, unless we're all prepared to avoid these activities until a vaccine arrives... My point is, you're never going to make everyone happy.

Report
 Roadrunner6 13 May 2020
In reply to sharpendclimbing:

Yeah, I understand lakes saying 'dont come here' but I follow many on strava and they are on the summits already. Either the lakes or the howgills. I'm not sure there's that much difference.

People are going to be out, we need to just be sensible, cautious and socially distance but just 'keep off the hills' is not going to work. Slowly it seems like other MRT's are realizing this.

Report
 rogerwebb 13 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> The issue is, these MRT posts and UKC posts won't matter for most people. They've just watched Boris on TV say what is allowed, do any of us actually look at the local MRT FB post before we head out? I wonder how Llanberis will look this weekend as I suspect many from the Chester/Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham areas will go and won't even realize Wales is different, but the Lakes/Edale etc will be flooded.  

> It's easy to insult them and say they lack common sense but the PM was pretty clear. 

Who is insulting anyone? 

Report
 Roadrunner6 13 May 2020
In reply to rogerwebb:

Not you sorry, others saying they lack common sense for going to the lakes.

Report
 rogerwebb 13 May 2020
In reply to Roadrunner6:

No worries. If I wasn't north of the border I would probably be out. 

Report
L M H Charlton 17 May 2020
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

There is something awry - and ultimately a little troubling - with the notion that we should not engage in controlled risk activity because of perceived risk to voluntary rescue services. Similar objections to the use of the outdoors are being used to discourage surfing and kayaking, but the philosophic issues are broadly the same.

But before I expand and to balance any opprobrium, let me say a few things.

The volunteers of MRT are good people and they carry out a fantastic service - I salute them and indeed I have raised thousands of pounds to support them. I like the MRT!! What’s more, they have very legitimate concerns over Covid 19 - it’s not only those being rescued that could have the virus - the teams could infect each other by working to rescue and indeed that strikes me as a bigger statistical probability.

But none of that means responsible adults should be barred from undertaking outdoor activities so long as they know and understand the risk. MRT are voluntary- they do not have to come out nor should they be compelled to in any way - legally or morally - the responsibilities and risks lie with the individuals taking part.

It seems we are so used to having rescue services in everyday life that many people regard the idea of a  'right to risk' as counterintuitive.  We have to resist this and put the counter case strongly - because a sanitised outdoors is not the outdoors we love or the one which is most life-affirming. 

When we get to the point that we can’t partake in controlled risk activities because of the potential call on volunteer rescue services then we are putting the cart before the horse. We have fought for decades for access to the outdoors (many of us are still campaigning) and there are real issues about personal liberty at stake.  But most importantly we need to consider what it means for the broader attitude and culture that we want for our use of the outdoors. Do we really want a situation - either in law or even in the moral zeitgeist -  where moderately risky activity can only be undertaken if there is a full rescue service on hand?  I suggest we need to think very carefully indeed about that!!

Before closing I would add that none of this means that 'reckless' activity is fine - there are often good legal and moral reasons why we might intervene to stop truly reckless behaviour. But responsible and experienced persons taking part in a controlled and limited risk outdoor activity is a different thing entirely, and we should resist all attempt to stop that, including the spurious notion that we should not go on the fells for fear of putting pressure on a volunteer rescue service that we are prepared to go without.

On a more positive note, I read reports from beaches in Cornwall yesterday of authorities being very clear to visitors that there was no lifeguard service and that swimming and surfing were very much at ‘your own risk’ with the additional (sensible) advice that this was not perhaps a day for novices.

That is surely the way to go for our mountains too.

Post edited at 20:33
Report
 Roadrunner6 17 May 2020
In reply to M H Charlton:

> There is something awry - and ultimately a little troubling - with the notion that we should not engage in controlled risk activity because of perceived risk to voluntary rescue services. Similar objections to the use of the outdoors are being used to discourage surfing and kayaking, but the philosophic issues are broadly the same.

> But before I expand and to balance any opprobrium, let me say a few things.

> The volunteers of MRT are good people and they carry out a fantastic service - I salute them and indeed I have raised thousands of pounds to support them. I like the MRT!! What’s more, they have very legitimate concerns over Covid 19 - it’s not only those being rescued that could have the virus - the teams could infect each other by working to rescue and indeed that strikes me as a bigger statistical probability.But none of that means responsible adults should be barred from undertaking outdoor activities so long as they know and understand the risk. MRT are voluntary- they do not have to come out nor should they be compelled to in any way - legally or morally - the responsibilities and risks lie with the individuals taking part.

> It seems we are so used to having these types of services that evidently seems counterintuitive to many - but when we get to the point that we can’t partake in any risky activities because of the potential call on volunteer rescue services then we are putting the cart before the horse. We have fought for decades for access to the outdoors (many of us are still campaigning); there are real issues about personal liberty at stake.  But most importantly we need to consider what it means for the broader attitude and culture that we want for our use of the outdoors. Do we really want a situation - either in law or even in the moral zeitgeist -  where even moderately risky activity can only be undertaken if there is a rescue service on hand?  I suggest we need to think very carefully about that!!

> I should add that none of this means that 'reckless' activity is fine - there are good legal and moral reasons why we might intervene to stop reckless behaviour. But responsible and experiences persons taking part in a controlled and limited risk outdoor activity is a different thing entirely

> Yesterday I read reports from Cornwall of authorities being very clear to people that there was no lifeguard service and that swimming and surfing were very much at ‘ your own risk’ with the additional (sensible) advice that this was not a day for novices.

> That is surely the way to go for our mountains too.

I think there's some MRT who think they have earned the right to police the hills. I fully respect the MRT, always throw cash in collections, have never used them, but I dont think they have the right to say who goes out.

I've seen one who is out in areas he says others shouldn't be going to give them a talking to. He's another person out there, another possible heart attack, another possible broken ankle anyway. But I also don't think they have that right to say who goes out.

Report
 AdrianC 17 May 2020
In reply to M H Charlton:

We're not barred.  We're being asked to be responsible.

Report
 Dave B 17 May 2020
In reply to M H Charlton:

To a great extent I agree. I want to get back to these activities. The area I'd like to highlight is that we are still working out protocols and undertaking training to be as ready as we can be, and at kai getting equipment . It is very difficult for and organisation whose very ethos is about saving lives , putting themselves into greater risk than staying at home, to navigate this new scenario. 

I genuinely have no idea what I'd actually do, were I to go on the sea at the moment and was in the situation of they're being a drowning person who I could save, but could also potentially leave my family without me, or  in much poorer health. 

... And I am  sure I want to put my friends in that position either, should I be the one in trouble. 

We're a lot further on in terms of risk management in rescue services than we were 30 years ago. Throw in this new scenario and we're struggling to catch up. 

We will get there 

The question then becomes, when will it be a day for novices? 

Report
L M H Charlton 17 May 2020
In reply to AdrianC:

Fair point relative to England (not so in large areas of Wales where access is closed). But the broader point is that there many who would have it so, and there are many more using the notion of risk to MRT as a reason why the blanket bans on the Wales national parks should stay in force for a long time yet, regardless of wider legislation.

Report

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.