UKC

Morning Campers!

Hope we’re all good today.

What’s the general feeling on scramble grades across different parts of uk? For example, is a Scottish grade 1 seen as slightly superior to an English or Welsh grade 1 in regards to its difficulty? I know the grading system is there to make things uniform and categorise the climbs, but I’ve noticed a few comments while outdoors and also in the forums that imply certain locations have a higher threshold for the gradings.

just curious anyway, I am by no means picking fault with these comments or looking to challenging them. I love these forums and the discussions that take place and the information that comes out of it all.

Cheers all 

Yes.

It's hard to be definitive, since some routes in every area will be soft for the grade (it's a range, not a fixed point) and others are going to be towards the top end. A lot of Scottish hillwalks involve some grade 1 scrambling but actually, thinking about it, many of the best routes at that grade may actually be down south:

Crib Goch, Bristly Ridge, Sharp Edge and Jacks Rake all seem like good examples of hard grade 1s, I can't think of anything in Scotland that's obviously harder.

There are differences in terms of the scale of the hills, distances covered, remoteness, relative lack of traffic, relative lack of other people around, potentially worse weather, greater likelihood of encountering snow - all of those things might make a Scottish grade 1 scramble feel more of a mountaineering challenge than more or less roadside classics in the Lakes and Snowdonia. But move for move I doubt you're going to find any obvious regional/national differences in grading. 

One factor may be traffic - many of the Scottish routes will have had far fewer ascents than say Bristly. That dodgy flake with your name on? On a Welsh classic it would have been consigned to the abyss years ago (not saying that there is no loose rock in Wales mind). And you often get a scratch and polish (ooo er) trail too. 

Nothing inferior about the furth classics though.  Well worth the journey.

Really? Most Scottish Grade 1s I've done aren't as good as a lot of the Lakes/Wales grade 1s. Carn Mor Dearg Arete would just be a walk in Wales...

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of the grades as delineating either the superiority or the "difficulty" in any absolute sense. Instead, it might be useful to think of them as describing the types of features you are likely to encounter and the likely approach/skillset you will require. In short, the technicality: the extent to which you stop walking and start climbing.

E.g. a narrow walkers ridge where you may occasionally use your hands but do not encounter technical terrain and are very unlikely to use a rope will always be grade 1. But, within that scope, you have Sharp Edge, which is very short, and Crib Goch, which is a fairly substantial undertaking. The latter is, I think, more challenging because of its scale. You can crawl 150m across Sharp Edge if needs be, but you can't crawl 2km along Crib Goch. The feature and the approach are similar; the technicality is also similar; but the "difficulty" expressed in absolute terms is not the same, nor the quality. It's certainly possible to proceed cautiously along both without any particular ability, skill or equipment. But, whereas Sharp Edge might feel like a slippery and consequential little dare against your nerve for the uninitiated, Crib could prove to be a really daunting "epic" for those who end up struggling. And, certainly, for those lacking the skills, a short friendly 30m grade 2 buttress may be more physical but significantly "easier" than Crib.

When it comes to scrambling, it feels like North Wales has such great continuous features crammed so densely into areas like, e.g. Ogwen and Yr Wyddfa. So, the North Ridge of Tryfan followed by Bristly Ridge (1) blows Striding Edge and Swirral Edge out of the water in terms of being sustained and exposed. Idwal Buttress and Continuation (2) makes, e.g. Brimfell Slabs feel like a discontinuous ramble up steep grass. Technically similar, and similar genres, but a completely different atmosphere, scale and quality.

I think if you want a solid day of scrambling North Wales is hard to beat, some of the best routes right on the side of the main roads. The flip side is that is normally busier and obvious signs of polishing / erosion on most routes. There is not many places you can tick off some classic scrambles and still be back at the café for a late breakfast. 

For me Scotland just hits differently. When your clinging onto something that may or may not be the route for dear life and that sudden realisation hits you that not only have you not seen anyone in the last 12 hours but also you can't see any sort of civilisation at all. 

Because of the larger scale of Scotland it just allows more options for add-hock scrambling, and the fact its a lot more remote adds a sense of adventure to it - Has anyone been up this? Can we get up that? What's over there? However, there are quite often some big walks in and the ground never works in your favour!  

For me I discovered my love of rock in Scotland and it will always be special to me. It was whilst I was geologically mapping an area for my dissertation, it was seriously remote area south of Loch Eriboll, one of these places you don't go to unless you need to go there, there wasn't anything particularly note worthy, but I found myself climbing over all these rocks, scree slopes, making my own way up various features - since then I have always been chasing that sense of 'we're on our own here'.

Under lying geology and glaciation means that there are differences, but really North Wales has a few sq km with lots or scrambles and the rest are generally shorter and more spread out. You offer Snowdonia, I'll offer Skye? Cadar then Beinn Eighe, or a scramble around Alligin what a setting etc... 😉 

I've not done loads but my scrambling experience is roughly split 50/50 between North Wales and Scotland with the odd thing in the Lakes and tbh a lot of the Scottish ones have felt easier (though more remote and with bigger walk-ins). Bristly Ridge, Llech Ddu and Crib Goch are as hard as any grade 1 I've done in Scotland but Tryfan North Ridge is pretty soft. 

There are a few routes in the Highland Scrambles guides that are really, really serious for the grades due to a mixture of loose rock and vegetation in part because of the lack of traffic.

I think this is to the extent that some of them would represent a real risk to less experienced scramblers or those used to cleaner rock in the Lakes or Wales.

Agree, generally classic Scottish I & II’s (outwith of Skye and the Ben) have less rock than Lakes or Welsh counterparts and are often little more than walks with defined and often by-passable crux’s on the II’s.

But get away from the classics and onto III’s and the ground is sometimes wildly exposed. A team on for example Ben Hope, or maybe on Bidean (e.g Rhylolite Romp), might be phased at the shear steepness of the grassy approach before they get to the potentially confidence sapping lack of confirmation that they are ‘on route’ due to lack of traffic once on the  Rocky scrambles.

I was thinking about the routes described out of the Lairig Ghru, some of them are very loose. Fine if you have grades in hand and are used to that kind of terrain, terrifying if you are not.

I'm thinking about the ridges into Affric from Sgùrr a' Bhealach Dheirg.  One of them was a delightful grassy walk in the sky.  What would it be like if it ran down the other side of the hill or was in Wales?  The grass would have long gone, it may even be a scramble.  Then there is Arthur's Seat. Three summits - two grassy and one covered in sometimes awkward rock because we along with the tourists have stripped off the soil.

Scramble grades, like climbing grades are rough guides.

In some ways it was easier before they were graded. Tryfan, Striding Edge, Aonach Eagach, Curved Ridge, The Saddle and the Torridon Giants all pretty much the same. Torridon and Glencoe were definitely turfy scrambling compare to the rocky routes in Snowdonia and Skye.

I'm sure there are plenty of anomalies. My 10 yr old strolled along strolled along Striding Edge but really struggled on Jack's Rake. Seeing it through his eyes, even taking the exposure into account, it seemed a joke that they were the same grade.

Generally though, I'd say the system works even handedly across the UK.

when I first discovered scrambling Striding and Swirral edge were not graded and I think Sharp Edge was just 1 (which is deserved I think to warn the unwary of just how serious it is - also if the slabs rather than the gully to the right are taken direct it is quite a decent scramble combination in nice dry conditions.

I still don't think Striding Edge is a 1 - it is just a very easy scramble the crest of which is mostly avoidable and avoided by very many people.   I think it demeans Lake District Scrambling for it to be compared with graded scrambles elsewhere (I've ascended Helvellyn several hundred times so not just a casual opinion).  Still a good outing and better in winter.

It's not a competition, is it? I f**king love eryri and I love Skye as well.

No it's not (luckily for England and Wales), the op set it up, so I just threw the bait out there. I agree, you can spend a day on Tryfan and the Glyders scrambling barely touching grass once, 1000s of metres of ascent. Second only to Skye 😉  The lakes is good in a different way where you can just add them into a normal walking day as a means of ascent keeping off the paths and away from the masses. 

I've always tended to think of Striding as grade 0.5, not that such a grade really exists. For all that it's narrow, the only proper hands-on bit is the chimney, and if going away from Helvellyn that's not very hard in ascent in good summer conditions. With Swirral I think the issue is that it's flush against the plateau and there's often a temptingly narrow band of snow at the top in late winter or spring conditions, when the rest of the ridge is clear. Most Swirral accidents I've heard of - including fatalities - have involved people with no ironmongery trying to get up or, more usually, down that narrow bit of snow. The ridge itself is pretty easy - I'm not a good scrambler and I'm too tall to be useful, but I once (when much younger, admittedly) tried to get down Swirral in summer without using my hands, and managed it.

Yes, Striding Edge is scarcely a scramble - grade 0.5, as you say - whereas Jack’s Rake, Llech Ddu and Sharp Edge are probably worth Grade II.

How can Striding Edge be "scarcely a scramble" but the very similar yet shorter Sharp Edge be a grade 2? I'm happy to go with Striding Edge and Sharp Edge as 0.5, but there should be parity. Jack's Rake is also definitive grade 1: it's a steep path where you occasionally benefit from using hands. Bear in mind that Bristly Ridge also gets a 1 and Milestone Gully and Barstow Buttress get a 2. Jack's Rake is more like the ungraded route up to Foxes Tarn under Scafell East Buttress than the much steeper Milestone Gully. If it is ever worth an upgrade, then Jack's Rake only gets grade 2 on days when you need to negotiate the smell of a dead sheep, i.e. make an oxygen-less ascent. I think the reason people feel it is harder than grade 1 is simply the atmosphere.

Jacks rake felt pretty hard to me for a 1 at the two cruxes and the steep groove. Harder than striding edge, angels ridge, Tryfan etc. I'd not be at all unhappy saying it was easy 2 especially with that exposure.

I find North Wales scrambles to be some of the hardest grade wise, Scotland I find a bit softer and the easier mountain routes up to around VS tend to be graded a bit more softly too IMO. Lakes I've done less scrambles but they are probably comparable to North Wales (as are the easier rock routes although I have in the past thought the lakes could be a tiny bit stiffer grade wise than N Wales)

Probably the steep down climb near the end of striding edge is worth easy 1 as is the rock that follows just before the summit.

1.3, maybe? Though, I always thought Tryfan's North Ridge to be more difficult (especially if you head up the rock, rather than detours). I guess these things are subjective to an extent and certainly depend on conditions.

I think with Sharp Edge (only done once) I found it serious because I kept to the exact crest and it was cold and wet, not helped by being rather unpleasant shiny rock (basalt, I think). Jack’s Rake: I’ve always kept out of the runnel where most people go, but on the superb left edge: exposed, on perfect rock. Mind you, a trillion people have gone my way. On east buttress of Scafell I liked that long traverse left (Western traverse I think it’s called) followed by Steep Ghyll, which is a bit scary because it’s so threadbare. Broad Stand is nasty; a remarkably hard move in ascent, somehow easier in descent, IIRC, but then the only time I’ve done it is after doing CB or Moss Ghyll Grooves.

Further note: grading scrambles is only moderately useful and a bit farcical because there are usually so many variations available (e.g. North Ridge of Tryfan). Having none of the refinement of rock routes, VS and above.

yeah there are a lot of ways of doing that Tryfan route, if you go around to the gully its very easy for the grade, staying on the rock the easiest line is fairly straight forward but its not obvious which that is and it winds about.

Well some scrambles are refined ofc, good examples are Clogwyn y Person Arete, After thought arete, even Curved Ridge / crowberry tower. There are tonnes of great climbs Diff - HS too although I take your point as you head up the grades towards VS routes do tend to be less escapable with fewer variations and better quality with less scrapy sections etc. Especially on the stared routes.,

I think you may be thinking of the West Wall Traverse followed by Deep Ghyll, on the Scafell Crag side, rather than Steep Ghyll or the East Buttress. Also, I think Sharp Edge is slate, which, yes, is very slippery.

I agree completely that scrambles often have more options for variation, due to the easier nature of the ground. But, grading should aim to account for this, I think. E.g. one of the things that makes Sharp Edge a grade 1 IMO is that you can easily escape the crest and basically walk around half of the difficulties. There's just one place where things inevitably get very exposed and consequential.

Another factor accounting for subjective grading is the fact that descriptions in guidebooks are often sparse. Not so much of an issue on a ridge, but quite significant on buttresses. Indeed, Idwal Buttress (aka Northwest Face Route) is described as one route, but basically denotes a 10 - 15m wide slab and the broken rocky/grassy ground to its right. It's given grade 2, but following the left edge of the slabs is very exciting grade 3 padding, with difficult to locate belays that make soloing a logical approach. Here, it's not so much a problem of the route being variable as a decision not to clearly define a route. The grade also probably feels wildly different in stiff boots compared to approach shoes.

The best rock routes allow little or no variations, because everything around them is many grades harder/impossible at the same grade. E.g the Gates and the Corner.

I'd agree that Jack's Rake and Sharp Edge felt harder (to me) than Striding Edge, but they feel closer to that than they do to (say) the Aonach Eagach, which I think is what you have to think about when suggesting that things are grade 2.

I actually think the "Grade 0 scramble" is quite a useful concept for beginners to cover something like Hall's Fell ridge or the Gribin, roughly meaning "if you try this and find yourself seeking out the difficulties and relishing the exposure then you'll probably enjoy actual Grade 1 scrambles." On that basis Striding Edge to me feels borderline 0/1.

I wish people would talk about quality rather than grades. Hall’s Fell Ridge, for example, if followed absolutely on the crest and not by the footpath on the right, is one of the finest scrambles in the Lakes of its standard. Whereas the Aonach Eagach, though long and impressive, is very uneven and not very satisfying really. Another gem is the Parson’s Nose followed by the Clogwyn y Person Arete … though I’d describe the nose as an easy rock climb rather than a scramble.

People talk a lot about quality, but there's a lot more at stake if you give someone the wrong impression of how difficult and dangerous a route is than if you give them the wrong impression of how good it is.

There is a huge trend in ‘bigging up’ what historically were introductory classics; Crib Goch, Anoach Eagach etc.  Previously if people enjoyed those in dry weather they could seek to do more.  Now there is a whole industry in encouraging people into scrambling, and to what end, if those undertaking feel they need to do it, but so often avoid the actual scrambling.

to digress from the original thread remit; it also causes damage with lots of people ‘doing’ but ‘not doing’ classics, as they often no longer take the ‘crest is best’ approach.

If you look at An Teallach for example the number of bypass paths on the S side are now at the point where so much friable soil is exposed, that mass slope failure isn’t far away. On the main summit path from the other direction there is now a wide incised traverse path to the shoulder below the summit, in similar state (and also likely to cause large slope failure soon) just to avoid the blocky ridge which has no technical difficulty and has far more resistance to footfall. If all those feet had done the crest (or not tried to do the horseshoe) the damage would have been orders of magnitude less. 

The last time I did An Teallach on a sunny late summer w/e we were the only party doing the scramble. Over a dozen parties were doing the Horseshoe taking all the bypasses and ultimately missing the whole point of this outing and a lot of the views, while adding to flank slope damage. A couple of dozen parties, many clearly new or occasional hillgoers, or NC500ers were doing in the other direction the first and main summit, nearly all following the summit shoulder eroded traverse. We shouldn’t blame them for following that traverse, it was ‘hillgoers’ avoiding a basic blocky ridge that created it. Mass encouragement, commoditisation and commercialisation is not in many cases good environmental practice; yet we see representative bodies, Guides and instructors, guidebook writers and sites like UKC continue to do it, clearly without introspective thought as to the outcome.

I think your examples exemplify why it's so difficult to any consensus about quality, as I agree on one, disagree on another and strenuously disagree on a third!

Clogwyn y Person, Hall's Fell and Aonach Eagach respectively?

These things can be pretty subjective. I got spooked on a slightly greasy day on Jack's Rake and backed off, and I don't think I'll ever go back - didn't like it, felt quite forbidding. However we then immediately went up Easy Gully instead, from the same start-point - that's probably harder (and is reckoned by some people to be "the hardest thing in Wainwright"), but I managed it and didn't get the same bad vibes as I did on Jack's Rake. I've been down Sharp Edge in the rain and while I wouldn't do that again (older and maybe a bit wiser now) I didn't get too unnerved by it.

There's a bit on Jack's Rake which is quite dangerous from memory. I did it in cold conditions a while back and there was a slab section close to the top with a seep across it which was frozen at the time. That section must always be wet and I remember thinking that the consequence of blobbing it would be death. People do die on that route. I think it would be quite tricky to get yourself killed on Striding Edge, unless you were running and really binned it off the more ridgey bit. The only real 'hands-on' part is quite secure and enclosed and even if you fell, you'd only go a couple of metres like a sack of spuds to the base of it. 

I didn't get that far! Was only five minutes up the initial grooves, at most, when I realised I had a voice in my head saying this wasn't a good idea. I was following my main Lakes sidekick (very experienced - he passed 15k Wainwrights this past week), and us doing Jack's Rake had been my idea, but I rather sheepishly called up to him and said let's back off, and he was fine about this.

The odd thing is that my mate, like me, is basically a walker who will do a bit of scrambling on a good day if in the right mood, but he's the one of the two of us who doesn't like traversing sideways across stuff. I habitually do that all over the place and am generally happy to do so, whereas when I feel scared it's mostly on straight up/down things. But there was something about Jack's Rake that I really didn't like.

Yes, although I once sat for three hours with a bloke (complete stranger) who had fallen down that bit and badly dislocated his shoulder. In due course the MRT came, stuffed him full of meds and he was choppered off. Loads of people had already walked past the man - it was a lovely day, and busy - without stopping, but that's another story...

Well I've been scrambling at levels of difficulty between Striding Edge and the Inn/Pinn or Pinnacle Ridge on Sgurr nan Gillean for over a third of a century and I think I have at least a modest grasp of both seriousness of route in terms of objective danger and difficulty.

I'm quite happy with Striding Edge and Swirral edge being ungraded sub grade 1 with increased hazard in wet, windy or icy (or in combined) conditions.

Having been up Jack's Rake many times in company with other people of differing degrees of experience and ability (down to a 4 year old, roped and helmeted) I cannot see how it would be the same as Striding Edge or Swirral Edge.  It would be at the very least grade 1 and has significant objective danger whose level varies (for the inexperienced and unwary) with conditions, is not easy to escape once en route and also carries responsibility for not dislodging rocks on to those below (not such a serious risk on Helvellyn). It is also a place where a helmet is not out of place because of the rockfall danger and death has been caused on Pavey Ark from rockfall.

Sharp Edge is fairly graded as just 1 as it has significant variable objective danger and has a steep exit to reach the plateau, either up polished slabs or a damp gully.  While you can and many do avoid the crest I have on many occasions seen people there trying to regain the crest later on when the optional offcrest route disappears and they get on to damp greasy rock. I have had many more very careful and wary crossings of Sharp Edge in less than good conditions than I have on Striding or Swirral Edges even if it can be an easy scamper when there is no blustery wind and/or greasy sloping rocks to contend with.  I'd hazard a guess that it is more of a black spot than Striding Edge because of that.  In some of the trickier spots (in poor conditions) the safer way is less obvious than the less safe normal route where people have slipped.

I've been up & down Jack's Rake several times, often when rock  climbing. I've seen the whole of the rake dry on occassion.

IMO Sharp Edge is technically harder when dry (just) but q a bit more so in the wet & serious and the final grooves provide more sustained scrambling than SE. so 1/2!

I don't think it's more technical: just unnervingly slippery. But, it's one of those things that's so hard to define that we could argue about it longer than the HVS 5a grade of a certain Peak District slab.

The Keswick MRT page on "Local Accident Blackspots" is useful, and has Sharp Edge first in the list (with some chastening accident/fatality figures):
https://keswickmrt.org.uk/safety-hotspots/

There's also a long list, specifically about Jack's Rake, on the LAMRT site:

https://www.lamrt.org.uk/category/location/jacks-rake

The Keswick team's site used to have a similar full list of Sharp Edge incidents dating back decades, with numerous accounts of people leaving the crest of the ridge and ending up stuck in "the usual gully".

Nobody should be thinking Sharp Edge is an easy option, tell that to the workmate of my brother that died there. I've been on it where it was an absolute bricker and I was as scared as leading E numbers. In some conditions it feels like someone has covered that weird slab in liquid soap. And then someone else trained a giant wind machine on it. 

My last time over Sharp Edge (dry and still) we were overtaken/leapt over by two Border collies (one of which was 14 years old according to its owner). The time before that I was solo and it was windy and icy. I caught my crampons in my trousers and fell over on the path up to the actual edge so walked away.

I've been across it twice, once in crampons where they hooked nicely on little edges etc and it was a doddle and once in those horrible soapy conditions where I wound up on my hands and knees for about 5m! No interest in doing it in none snowy conditions again!

when crossing it in wet conditions, particularly when windy, I feel as if it is an exam in which a pass is not to be taken for granted, an exam for which there is a severe penalty for not passing

Agree with that, compare Curved Ridge for example to say Cloywyn Y Person Arete/Dolmen Ridge/Cneifion Arete - All get a grade 3, but given good conditions then Curved.Ridge is considerably less daunting that the ones in Snowdonia/Eryri

Hi mate - think you replied to the wrong person there! 
However I did do Sharp Edge once in wet conditions and thought it was every bit worthy of the grade if not a grade 1-2 like some others have said. 

A general post rather than a direct reply.

Sharp Edge was the first lakes scramble I ever did and I remember being massively underwhelmed. It was a drizzly day and the rock was a bit slippy but it was over in the blink of an eye. Perhaps I need to revisit it. I came down Helvellyn via Striding Edge the year after and found that a better, more enjoyable scramble.

In my opinion, it's almost impossible to compare Striding Edge and Jack's Rake objectively. If exposure bothers you less than technicality then SE will feel much easier. If you're the opposite then JR will feel much easier.

Many Lakeland buttress scrambles have technically very hard short sections split by big ledges and escape routes. I don't think these can be meaningfully compared to longer, more serious, less escapable, but technically easier routes like the Aonach Eagach. It comes down to your own attitudes to and abilities around technicality and seriousness.

A bit like comparing long run out sea cliff routes on dodgy rock to 6m grit routes with perfect landings but more so.

The shoulder route i think you're talking about is how I've done this part of the ridge when coming from the hotel. Its always seemed like a pretty intuitive mountaineering line and its even on the walkhighlands description. 

STAGE 4

This ridge can either be followed by scrambling up it directly near the corrie edge, or follow an easier path across the northern face of Sgùrr Fiona to instead reach its summit up its rocky but straightforward northwest ridge. Either way, the cairn on this second Munro at 1060 will be reached.

I don't see why not (for the sake of an argument on a wet day!) SE has a very small amount of easy scrambling JR has quite a bit more easy stuff whether you stay in the gutter or on the edge & a couple of harder sections therefore it's harder overall

Go on then, seeing as it's still tipping down here

I've known several novices freeze on "easy" horizontal knife edges because of big drops close by each side who wanted to turn back. I've known several novices manage short but technical sections of scrambling who have been concentrating so hard that they've been oblivious to the potential seriousness of the overall situation. I find beginners' responses to scrambling unroped to be more varied and unpredictable than beginners' responses to easy roped climbing.