UKC

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the appropriate forum but thought it best to ask. This weekend, me and a few friends are heading up to Scotland for some wild camping + hill walking. I'll be sleeping in my car, they in a tent. One of them is really (overly) keen on having a campfire. I don't feel great about this, especially if it's dry, although I know he is able make a campfire responsibly. Am I being overly cautious, or should I discourage him? I'm just not really sure what the gist is with campfires out here, especially given that we won't be too far off roads due to my sleeping situation. Obviously I wouldn't let him on an SSSI or the likes. Please help with any info.

Thanks

No fires.

BBC News - In pictures: Scotland's four-day battle with wildfires - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93kkj7pvzdo

40000 acres burned in Moray last week, took 4 days to put out. Was 1km from a mate's house in the end, pictures he sent of the burned moors are heartbreaking. Maybe if your mate is an expert fire builder he won't accidentally start a wildfire, but if he does it will be catastrophic and could he live with himself? I don't think I could. A campfire is a wonderful thing but it's not worth all this, regardless of whether it's permitted or not.

If it's even remotely dry, don't have a fire. If you do, utterly soak it with a ton of water before you leave.

People need to get over the perceived need to have a fire.

It's not possible to "leave no trace" and have a fire. If you want a fire stay in a bothy

I drove over Dava Moor yesterday and I've never seen burning on that scale before in Scotland. It doesn't matter if you think you can do it responsibly, there's still a risk. In fact the only responsible thing is not to have a fire.

follow the code

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all

use a stove

No!

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/8089150

Let’s not forget the recent fire in Culbin too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c706650wy1wo.amp

For the OP, what Dave said is exactly right.  Good on you for asking on here but this really is an 'in no circumstances' situation.

T.

If it's wildcamping, it's no fires.

If your friend wants a fire, use a bothy as suggested above, or find a campsite that allows fires or provides firepits.

You are not being overly cautious, you are being responsible.

Don't have a fire

Also please make sure you take all your rubbish out with you.

For toileting make sure you are away from water. Dig a hole and bring your used toilet roll out with you

Wild camping should be done well out of sight of roads and buildings 

Enjoy the weekend. The weather looks brilliant 

You are being the responsible one - no fires.

I live near the 40,000 acres burnt recently.

Temps forecast to be high 20's this weekend so a very high fire risk, everyone is a bit nervous that there will be more irresponsible behaviour...don't be that group

Tell your mate to think about the thousands of animals they would be responsible for the death of if it got out of hand. 

Also it's not just about whether you have a controlled fire. It's like littering; people are more likely to litter if they see litter about and then it snowballs. The more people have fires, the more it is deemed acceptable and the more chances of people who might not be as careful as your mate setting the moors on fire.

You are definitely not being over cautious and as you've asked the question you are being more responsible than your friend. I agree with the other comments - no campfires.

A couple of thoughts. You said your friend is able to make a camp fire responsibily. If he had a campfire where will he get the fuel? Is he going to bring wood with him? What he is going to do with what is left of the fire when it is out?

Even if sparks don't fly from a campfire and ignite other vegetation it is possible for the ground under the fire to burn which can smoulder and become a fire hours later.

Take nothing but photos and leave nothing but footprints is something worth following.

Please try to persuade your friend not to have a campfire.

Dave

BTW if your friends in a tent are not going to be too far off the road and the camping is from a car then that is not wild camping.

Legal situation;

 Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (Section 56) - “Any person who lays or lights a fire in a public place so as to endanger any other person or give him reasonable cause for alarm or annoyance, or so as to endanger any property, shall be guilty of an offence, and liable on summary conviction to pay a fine.” It may be taken that access rights have extended the ‘public place’ provision so it now applies to most land. This offence could apply quite widely, and is important if people or property are put in danger. The words “reasonable cause for alarm or annoyance” are important, and just because someone says they are annoyed does not always mean that an offence has been committed. There has to be a ‘reasonable’ basis, with a significant likelihood of danger or public nuisance.

 Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865 - This Act prohibits lighting a fire in certain places, specifically “on or near any private road, or enclosed /cultivated land, or in or near any plantation.” The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 amends this 1865 Act so it is no longer an offence to light a fire in these places ifdone by a person in the exercise of their access rights. This offence therefore remains in full effect if the person is outwith access rights - for instance for people fishing or hunting, or in places outwith access rights (eg where crops are sown or growing).

 Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 –

“a person who,.. by lighting a fire within..30 metres of a road, damages the road or endangers traffic on it” commits an offence under the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (s100e).

In addition, vandalism or malicious mischief are common law offences, and may be relevant in any serious cases where there is illegal gathering of material for a fire, or fire-raising. The police have powers to immediately issue a fixed penalty notice for vandalism. All such criminal offences are of course outwith access rights.

https://www.outdooraccessscotland.scot/sites/default/files/201808/Guidance%...

———

I think given the very dry conditions the reasonable cause for alarm threshold is currently very low, and even if well contained any smoke across the road would also potentially result in an offence.
 

If you’re planning to burn your friend at the stake, fine, although please do it before you set out.

Otherwise, not.

jcm

A more general question on fires, would it be ok to light a fire on a beach, well away from any vegetation, e.g. below the high water mark using driftwood collected on the beach? What do people think of this as an alternative (it's something we often do in Cornwall) and would it be an acceptable compromise for your friend. (There is no shortage of fine Scottish beaches.)

That’s fine, even better if an offshore evening sea breeze.  So long as it’s on sand or shingle,  not bed rock as it can be scarred, and critically as you say below HW.

Other things to consider is if the beach is used by Crofters or farmers cattle or sheep to make sure they can’t step on the embers while hot, and if burning wood which has metal in it; like nails/staples. Is to collect these up in the morning once cold, as cattle and sheep can stand on and get embedded in their hooves.
 

Seems like poor advice; the tide will have been in and done its thing by then.

Is the OP trolling? 🙄

I'd also include wildlife, dogs and other people stepping on embers or superheated sand to the list of potential issues.

Plus, as mentioned upthread, even if it's done sensibly it just encourages the idiots to start burning anything they like where they like.

Most wild fires in Scotland are in fairly remote areas and I think we've got into the habit of thinking about them as only a threat to wildlife. The Dava one was a threat to property, livelihoods and perhaps even lives.

I don't think the point regarding the threat to wildlife should be diminished. A lot of people think moorland is barren and it's just a bit of heather that'll get scorched and grow back. When you consider the thousands of birds, reptiles, amphibians, small mammals, not to mention millions of insects (people probably less bothered by them though) which die horrifically in these fires. 

I was in Torridon during this one in 2011: https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2011/05/highland_wildfires_cause_devastatio... 

That put me right off ever considering any kind of fire outside of dedicated areas at campsites again.

One thing the article doesn't mention is that mountain rescue were out trying to locate people in the hills and escort them to safety, at great risk to themselves. At one point, they were taking people of Liathach by helicopter because there was no safe way down on foot.

I would strongly suggest they don't.

I came across this at around 6am on my morning run last week. I could smell the smoke so followed my nose. Glad I did as they fire had got into the earth and was still smouldering. The protagonists had soaked the fire but not the surrounding area. Wind increased overnight and that was enough to get it going again.

I wasn't diminishing it just pointing out that other things were at stake too.

Also with climate change peat is a vitally important water reservoir. Fire burning into the peat (or even just killing surface vegetation) leads to erosion which in turn can contribute to flooding - when we eventually get some rain.

Which, if you live near the river Wear in County Durham, given the regular staggered 3-year (or so) cycle of burning the grouse moors, means the river is so brown with eroded organics visibility through the water is typically below 50 cm.  Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like before the moors were trashed.

OP here. Can't reply to all the comments haha, but thanks guys. Glad to hear I'm not just being a 'prude'. I'll make sure they don't. Didn't realise some would take offence to me asking this. Just to clear up, I've done wild camping a bunch before, as well as a bunch of car camping, I've just never wanted to have a fire due to the reasons you guys listed (as well as only ever going solo) so was unaware of this aspect. Of course, will leave no trace.

Cheers!

Sam

Off topic, but historically the water may actually have been browner. One of the side effects of acid rain was that it suppressed the leaching of organic carbon (which gives water the brown colour) from peat soils into streams and rivers. Since we fixed acid rain, we've now released that suppression and so organic carbon concentrations have been increasing for several decades. Burning also causes the release of organic carbon, but there are multiple drivers at work. 

Don’t be complicit in lighting a fire on open land. It should be specifically illegal to light a fire for recreational purposes in all circumstances, whether on moorland, forest, meadow or beach, and whether summer or winter. The economic, environmental and social costs of wildfires is huge. 

I don’t think anyone has taken offence at your asking, if anything you’ve been commended for it. 
 

Scottish Outdoor Access Code on wild camping:

"Use small tents and camp well away from buildings and roads and have a backup plan to go somewhere else if it’s busy. Avoid camping in enclosed fields of crops or farm animals. Take away all belongings and litter and leave no trace of their visit."

If you are kipping in your car and your pals in tents which I assume will be nearby then you're not wild camping, you're fly camping by the side of the road. Doing so would not be compliant with the Code. Go to a campsite or walk in somewhere for a few miles and wild camp as it is supposed to be done.

Scottish Outdoor Access Code on fires:

"Do not light an open fire, including in fire bowls or BBQs, during times of high fire risk (prolonged periods of dry weather) or near forests, farmland, peaty ground, or close to buildings, or historic sites.

Always pay attention to fire danger warnings, information from the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and follow all local advice.

If you need to, use a camping stove to cook your food. Place it on a level, non-flammable surface away from dry grass and vegetation."

With that info and the weather forecast for this weekend, you don't need me to tell you no fires. And just because your mate is good at making fires doesn't make it responsible.

I do think that when they opened up access land for camping in Scotland they made a mistake by not restricting camping within a specific distance of roads. If they stated 'no camping without the landowners permission within 500m of a public road or occupied building' it might help to reduce the antisocial issues around abuse of carparks and lay-bys.

First off, the Scottish legislation did not ‘open up’ it formalised pre-existing rights, Scottish law and E&W law being completely different on access.
Secondly it wanted to support all forms of non motorised activity. Consequently it didn’t put a qualifying distance as that would have unduly impacted some activities where practically options are limited. Most obviously cycle tourers, river  and sea kayakers.

Where it fell down, was the quaint thought that all Scots and visitors would embrace and be responsible, and it didn’t give enough thought to near vehicular access, where the majority of problems arise. Personally I would have banned fires, I see their inclusion being agreed, as one way the landed set thought could allow revisiting the legislation as they knew it would result in issues, and political needed an ‘in’ when a more sympathetic government was in place.

The code does suggest if camping near buildings you should politely ask. See above, the code is not the law.

By way of personal example; When paddling round Scotland I camped at many spots within the 500m you stipulated, some where I couldn’t be seen or accessed by a road, and it felt ‘wild’. In fact I spent two days /three nights storm bound within that distance and it was >48hrs before the locals realised I was there.  Because it was Scotland, and not in a problem area, the conversation was very civilised. They defacto accepted my right to be there, so the chat was about the weather and a bit of blether. 

they made a mistake by not restricting camping within a specific distance of roads.

I am glad they did not do this.  That would really smeg up cycle touring*.  It's such a pain playing hide and seek when in England, and I am so glad I can move about without the worry of overnighting in Scotland.

*not an issue if going off road.

Thankyou. Yes I'd not thought about cycling or kayaking access, and yes you're right that I am unfamiliar with the details of Scottish law.

I've just seen that the Scottish Fire and Rescue service have warned of an extreme risk of wildfire across Scotland from Friday to Monday.

Just don't, please.

T.

https://www.firescotland.gov.uk/news/extreme-risk-of-wildfire-across-scotla...