UKC

http://uk.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-crucified-man-in-mecca-while-cal...

Isn't it time we actually did something?

we should stop flogging them nails and timber, B&Q has blood on it's hands.. I'm boycotting.

Interesting to read that it's not crucifixion as we would know it, in the biblical sense. A quick beheading, followed by public display. 

As for execution, is there a humane way? We still deal with the USA.. 

Since you put it that way, I suppose it's fine then.

No humane way currently in use. Was trying to think what would be a humane way, best I could think of was carbon monoxide poisoning whilst asleep.

I always tend to think that any society that has capital punishment is not properly civilised. Is that (using capital punishment) the best we can do?

No, not fine. But perhaps we should focus our human rights lectures evenly. 

1 June 1962 still works for me.

If you don't like the example used there are plenty of others to pick from or are you arguing the point that SA has an appalling human rights record?

Nitrogen or Argon (or any inert gas) is probably the best, the body doesn't "fight" against the gas as it does carbon monoxide. Experiments done with pigs, whose troughs are enclosed in a nitrogen atmosphere shows the pigs will eat until they pass out, and fall to the ground, there by removing themselves from the nitrogen trough. Will eventually wake up and start eating again. They don't do this in CO2 or CO atmospheres. There's a good Horizon program about it somewhere in the ether.

The electric chair tends to suffocate, lethal injections have been known so simply stop people moving while being in excruciating pain.

Me to, though obviously that gets tested every so often for some particularly heinous crime.

Here's the link, https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5drqil

One of the disturbing things in the program is the "need" or at least apathy towards inflicting pain.

It's not enough to simply take someone's life.

After saying that, I don't know if I could forgive someone, who for example,  murdered my daughter. I think people who do so, are amazing human beings.

Oscar 2 (ham radio satellite) launched into Earth orbit.

Very strange.

Are you suggesting it's not reasonable to criticise SA, because we haven't criticised everyone, how do you knew I haven't and why is it so important?

You wouldn't not prevent a murder, because you didn't prevent a murder somewhere else.

This is the shitest argument for doing nothing, if we're against capital punishment we should be vocal against every capital punishment.

I'm interested in what you should suggest we do?

Do you think we should say or do nothing, because we might have missed someone out?

Doesn't your ability to influence, have some barring on what you might choose to do?

Capital punishment, obviously. And Israel, naturally.

Eichmann was hanged.

So you object to a nation lopping the head of a Murderer and Rapist, yet you are fine with another nation experimenting on Pigs and other animals like this.

I am not actually saying you are wrong. But I do think its odd how we value things and assign morals.

I’m arguing the point that if we’re going To do something about capital punishment then we should do it across humanity, not aiming at a single country. 

I fail to see the noise made for the 40 other beheadings carried out by SA in the first few months of the year? Or the numerous by the US for that matter. Or anywhere else in the world. Certainly on this forum. You’ll be glad to know that no, I’m not cyberstalking you so yes, perhaps you have made noise elsewhere that I am unaware of.

If the UN could muster enough energy it could be more useful than a chocolate teapot, then there might be universal pressure put on all nations using capital punishment. 

Edit - as you raised the issue, perhaps you have an idea what to do? Economic sanctions? Stop selling them jets and jeopardise UK jobs at BAE Systems? Stop filling our cars up? 

I think it's high time we had a serious word with SA because of their excesses in Yemen. I see they bombed a bus full of civilians today, the latest in a long line of horrors.

Regarding capital punishment in SA we should try to persuade them to drop it in the same way we should be doing the same with all other countries who murder people who commit certain crimes.

Having known someone who was accused of a very serious crime in SA and was subjected to days of sleep deprivation in order to obtain a "confession", standard practice over there, the first priority should be to pressurise SA into bringing their justice system into the 21st century.

As posted earlier on the threat, nitrogen asphyxiation is probably the most humane. It's top of my preferred options rather than a slow death in old age.

I think it's a pretty poor yardstick by which to define 'civilisation'. You can't call a country properly civilised if doesn't have capital punishment yet has poor healthcare, massive crime rates, corruption etc. It's a nice to have in terms of virtue signalling.

I'm opposed to the death penalty due to the consequences of a miscarriage of justice, but when I look at the antics of IS in Iraq etc. I can't help thinking a large mass grave somewhere would be the best thing for civilisation in the long run.

WTF!! In the experiment above, the pigs weren't harmed!! They had the choice to eat some food or not, which was the whole point of the experiment. With CO2 they didn't like it so they didn't eat the food (they'd stick their heads in and pull them out again - maybe a little discomfort at the very most), with Nitrogen, they weren't bothered at all, they simply got drunk and fell down, only to wake and say, "wow food!" and stick their noses back in the trough again.

So yes it's a little bit different to looping anyone's head off.

Zoom to 37:00 in the video and see for yourself.

Say for arguments sake this was the first I'd heard of it? Does that make a difference?

Say for instance there's a limit to what I think is acceptable, maybe 40 is OK and 41 too much.

As it happens I have "made a noise" about his before, maybe not on here, but I don't think that matters to be honest.

You wouldn't expect the police not to investigate a crime, because they hadn't investigated all the others, or would you?

I don't get why I, or anyone else has to justify something I think is wrong, whenever they choose to condemn it, or why. If it's wrong it's wrong, it that simple.

As to what we do I'm not sure, doing nothing is unlikely to achieve anything.

Your argument about jobs is a little mercenary would you be happy selling weapons to ISIS?

I don't want to put words in Michael's mouth (or anything else for that matter), but I don't expect capital punishment, would be his only yardstick, I'm pretty certain it would include the things you mentioned too.

Me too, but I would pull the trigger, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it in my name either (even if they wanted to). So that put's me in a bit of a quandary, doesn't it.

Each to their own. Krikoman is bothered about human rights abuses, murder, etc by governments, whereas you are bothered by Krikoman posting about it. 

Yes to both. 

Right, if that’s how you really want to portray me. I quite clearly said that no, it wasn’t ok by me that such things were happening in SA. But you set your own narrative. He’s more than welcome to post it, and I’m more than welcome to reply on a public forum. I’m not ‘bothered’ by it.

You’ll note that I didn’t say I was happy with selling weapons to SA, I asked what would you do to ‘punish’ them, for the human rights abuses that you are quite rightly angry about. Now if you’d care to answer that point, rather than throwing a load of questions back at me?

You’ll also notice that I never asked you to justify the raising of your voice on the issue, I just pointed out that we should perhaps collectively focus energies on stopping it worldwide, rather than putting punitive measures in place to try and damage just one country in whatever manner you suggest to the first paragraph in this reply.

Is life imprisonment more or less civilised than capital punishment?

Yes, the Pig has harmed no one.

Where is this video of which you speak. If a rapist and murderer is getting their head lopped of, its a bit grim, but so is getting raped and murdered.

Like I say I am not advocating the Death penalty, just questioning your anthropocentric view of things.

Life imprisonment allows for release and recompense if new evidence invalidates the conviction. It also ensures public safety just as effectively as the death penalty.

And how long is it acceptable to wrongly imprison someone for and still claim that it was a better option because our "civilised" legal system cocked it up?

It seems pretty absurd to me to suggest that lengthy incarceration is better just in case we get it wrong.

For me, the question is less about the death sentence and more about the legal process which arrives at the sentence (although I do not support the death penalty). So, in a country that allows NO political dissent are we comfortable that the legal process is just? And where government is an absolute power what possibility is there for change?

So in the USA, the legal system (although flawed) is at least transparent and there is opportunity to change the law via democratic process.

Canada's stance against the Saudi regime is to ask that political activists be freed and the Saudi response has been one of a total shut down of diplomatic communication and trade agreements.

I would say life imprisonment gives people a chance to atone for their crimes and maybe make a difference to other in mates. There's not many in America, who go happily to the death chamber (Gary Gilmore was one of them). So that might tell you something.

If you read my post I explained the pig doesn't get harmed.

It's an Horizon documentary with Michael Portillo ( so yes it's a bit grin) ,Here's the link, https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5drqil

How you picked up on the pig thing but missed the jist of the post or the link to the documentary is beyond me.

We are discussing the death penalty here, so it's nowt to do with anthropocentric views of anything.

What would you prefer 20 years wrongly convicted, and then released and pardoned or death for something you didn't commit?

This seems like the oddest of arguments.

Well exactly, that's why being asked "why Saudi" is a daft question, if you against the death penalty then every country. It would make posting anything quite laborious though, making sure you covered every country.

And were still dealing with these countries; China, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, United States, Iraq, Somalia, is a little cumbersome.

It just so happened that the Saudi case popped up and I thought I'd post about it.

The question wasn’t ‘why Saudi?’ It was, to begin with, ‘why should we not appropriate a fair and equal response to all countries utilising the death penalty?’ Which is a reasonable question to ask, surely? Only on UKC could I get dislikes for suggesting such an outlandish idea. Indeed, your first reply completely ignored that, instead opting to label me in favour of the death penalty without caring to return reasonable debate.

Saudi Arabia is a good country to pick on in this case. A poisonous, off the scale, brutal and radical wing of Islam theocracy which makes Iran look like Finland. And that's before you start looking at what they support, facilitate and act out beyond their own borders.

Which 

Which does lead you to speculate (ok not speculate, we all know really) why the USA is currently hell bent on sanctioning Iran, while continuing to suck up to the saudi monarchy. Though I bet Trump is quite comfortable with  the way they treat women.

I think my response is that it isn't about the death penalty per se, its about how the death penalty is applied and the type of regime under which it is applied. The Will of the Saudi people might be that they want to abolish it but have no means to do so and no means to influence the way it is applied however the will of certain populations in US States is that they do want it and that they can change it if necessary.

I’d make them follow a Brexit thread on here, though I’m not sure that’s entirely humane.

Seeing as there is no God dictating what is right and what is wrong how should we decide what to value and what is moral or not? Killing animals for experimentation? For food? What about plants? After reading the hidden life of trees what about the timber industry? 

Correct, and thanks for the clarification within the brackets

So vanilla. It's no wonder that the UKC picnics died out.

I agree, we should do the same to murderers and rapists.

Because brutal dictatorships are easier to deal with and less problematic internationally than what usually replaces them. Look at NK, Saudi A, Zimbabwe(until recently) compared to Iraq, Libya after dictators were removed. As long as the harm only exists within that country the USA can happily turn a blind eye. 

Why do you find it odd?

Have you considered the fact that some of us just couldn't handle being locked up for 20 years whether it was right or wrong?

If you'd rather be dead then you always have that option, wherever you are.

It just seemed to me that if you were given life at 20 years old and 20 years it was found you were innocent, you'd only be 40 and still have some life left. With the alternative you wouldn't.

You also seem to be advocating the death penalty to avoid the disappointment of being wrongly convicted, which seems a little harsh, especially for those who don't agree with your take on things.

Nelson Mandela seemed to enjoy the little he had left, maybe you should be more Nelson

Is this what used to happen on the picnics? What have I been missing?

Good point, bit of poor argument on my part.

You'd get RSI in your finger, that's for sure.

I don't think that there are any hard and fast answers, at the end of the day any judgement on the humaneness of different options is likely to be subjective.

For example, whilst it is certainty true that long term prisoners may be able to attempt to take their own lives there are plenty of people that would be quick to condemn the authorities if they succeeded.