UKC

Anyone got any experience with using Consumer Rights Act to resolve stuff? 

LONG story short(ish): we had a log burner put in, and the installer went rogue and put the flue pipe about .5 metres off our gable end (into our neighbour's property at head height, who are rightly annoyed). He says it's our fault because we trusted his drawing which was for 'illustration purposes only,' but it's the only flue I've ever seen look as ridiculous as this. HETAS (the regulatory body) wont get involved because it's technically compliant (f**k knows how), so now we're down to the Trading Standards / Consumer Rights Act route. 

Installer says he'll sort it out, but for the princely sum of a full day's labour for his team (600 +VAT). Having already paid 4k upfront (their policy) for the job, I'm loath to cough up more cash for what I think is a total bodge job. 

Any advice welcome! 

You don't have a hope in hell of coming back on the installer imo.

The drawing does say for illustration purposes only and it doesn't specify how far away from the wall it will be. It's hard to tell how high up it is from the photo but it looks like they have kept it at 2.1m or higher up (honestly I don't think you can call this "head height", anyone taller than 2.1 metres is a certifiable giant, even I'm not that tall).

Are you sure there is not a regulation about the distance of the flue from the wall? I would have thought there would be, in order to protect the wall from heat damage.

My 2 cents: Your relationship with your existing installer is probably pretty sour by now. I would suggest approaching someone completely different about the modifications you want - at the very least it gives you a comparison price to compare the £600 + vat.

(though, £600 + vat for a days work, including materials for a "team" of 2? or 3? people would be low in my neck of the woods).

Looks like any external flue would be in your neighbours, assuming your wall is the boundary. Only way to fix that is internal flue. Did you ask the neighbours before fitting? 

We did. Gained permission based on the drawing – which neither party (us and neighbour) think reflects what we've ended up with. 

I appreciate this, but then why supply a drawing? Surely everyone can imagine a pipe against a wall? 

As far as I can work out (and from what HETAS have said) there's no maximum distance, only minimum. Regs say 70mm from wall... we're close to 300mm. 

Looks a lot like it is approx 2.1m high if your fences are normal fences, so they've met the only dimension given on the drawing. 

Also looks exactly as ugly as every example I've seen round here, and nothing at all out of the ordinary for that sort of thing. Did you look at anyone else's beforehand?? What are you comparing it to that makes you think it's ridiculous?

Also says access and permissions to be arranged by you, so you might have to soak this one. There's been a misunderstanding of requirements and/or poor communication but I can't see you convincing anyone who could help that it's all the installer's fault. 

To be fair the drawing does show it quote close to the wall rather than sticking out like a sore thumb. 

OK good you have permission

Unfortunately an illustration (which you have been given) is just that.

A detail drawing would give actual dimensions etc.

Paying up front gives you little to bargain with. An expensive lesson but your not alone. 

Nice one, I assume you got that in writing? This gives you another option - say to your neighbour "sorry but the installer says everything is fine so we're going to leave it at that". Depends how much you want to keep in with your neighbour of course.

I'm pretty much with Suffering on this one - if you want to get it fixed, you're going to need to just pay for that. when it's £720 we're talking about it seems extremely unlikely it's worth going to court over.

Did you say something while they were in the middle of attaching it? That might have been a good time to say "look, just cut that 45 degree bit 250mm shorter".

"for illustrative purposes only" literally means "so you can see approximately what it looks like", as in, it goes out through the wall then vertically up to a distance above the the roof and then stops - it doesn't go up inside the house, it doesn't stop part way up the wall, it doesn't have any changes of direction part way up, etc. etc.

It's not a drawing to scale, it does not mark any lengths at all actually (the height from ground is given as an approximation). You can't argue that the pipe should be actually against the wall because that's not allowed. It is going to sting to hear this but if you had a stipulation of specific dimensions that you wanted, you really would have needed to agree those, ideally in writing (by e-mail would have been fine) before you gave the go-ahead for the project.

There wasn't sufficient communication during the project and sadly, at least in my experience with small to moderate sums, when it comes to money, the person who has the money has the power and the person who doesn't have the money has no power in negotiations like this. Electricity supplier wants to screw with you? - you have the power because you can withhold money. You pay up front for a year of pottery lessons? - the teacher has the power because you have given over all the money and are awaiting the goods.

If you want another avenue to have a look at, it might be possible to try to bring this up with your credit card provider or bank and claw money or compliance back that way but I think it is very unlikely it would work.

It looks like a good installation to me. (I realise you disagree!)

Certainly, I think you have zero chance of getting anywhere with the Consumer Rights Act - what would your exact claim/complaint be?

Me, I'd pay the 600 notes - I doubt you'll get it rectified more cheaply by anybody else. Just make sure you specify exactly what you want changed!

What I can't see from the photo or the drawing, is what's at the top. If the flue needs to come out to go around eaves/drainpipes etc then I totally understand what your installer has done.  A flue loses efficiency with each bend (and I think HETAS have a limit of about 3 bends) so perhaps they've tried to fit you the best performing job that clears your roof cleanly, rather than putting in another bend higher up (with more parts costs and lower efficiency).

I'm actually surprised that the OP didn't request to look at the Technical Drawings before deciding to proceed as they would have detailed exactly how the flue would have been installed. 

Looking at the photo, doing that might drop the bottom of the flue pipe below the 2.1m level and make it more likely to bang the neighbours head.

It's always going to be a compromise on how much room in the house to get the pipe through the wall without having to have a tall section of pipe and heatshield up the internal wall to get sufficient head height externally.

This has been my argument all along – no drawings / spec existed beyond the image above. And apparently had to be requested at my expense if I wanted them (although this was never mentioned pre install). That's why I feel pretty justified in being annoyed when told the only drawing I was supplied was worthless.  

So you are annoyed that something free is worthless?

I see 2 options:

1. Pay for it to be modified.

2. Get your arse handed to you in a small claims court, pay yours and their legal fees, then pay for it to be modified.

Just to flip this mildly ratty narrative a little... would you be happy paying £4k for something from a seemingly professional outfit, only to be told after it's fitted that 'you get what you're given', despite being shown a bespoke drawing? I totally appreciate the 'illustration only' element – but this thing sticks out a mile for seemingly no better reason than laziness / a lack of planning. Maybe I'm a moron for not requesting measurements, but I guess I just foolishly trusted them not to cock it up.  

From the Consumer Rights Act, I don’t think you have said anything that would give a chance of a worthwhile outcome in pursuing. Unless you can show they said something contrary to what they provided and one that you can “prove” to a court, or find an expert who can state it is not standard construction or below reasonable competency, etc, or is not satisfactory quality, or legal, or …?, it is unlikely to succeed if they choose to defend. Suggest you speak to Citizens Advice before proceeding if you are thinking of that, and also a Solicitor if you haven’t covered any legal aspects.

At face value, the regulatory body say it’s ok, or it conform to standard practice, and I assume it is of satisfactory quality, and works satisfactory (?), then a court would look to those things. The overhang of your neighbour’s property would be taken as the drawing said - your responsibility. I assume the pieces and joints are standard industry pieces so I would have expected something shaped and fitted like you got, personally. I’ve certainly seen many houses with that design type of flue from just in the passing, just not overhanging neighbouring property. Cutting or altering them may not be possible. Yes, and alternative design may have been available that would have been closer, but was that specified as part of the contract.

I hope you got the neighbour’s agreement in writing as this could be an ongoing issue which could have implications if you or they sell, or at a later late. Could be even a simple thing of say rainwater running down and dripping on them so wetting them, their visitors, their shopping, or their path (maybe greening, staining, icing over in winter).

Depending on how things stand with you and the neighbour, I would suggest you seriously consider just paying for an alternative “if” it improves things all round. To me the price would be small to keep the peace with the neighbours and your own mind. The alternative would be to get legal advice but this will be more than the quoted figure to alter.

If you decide just to alter, suggest you get a full description/explanation of what the alteration will be and ideally with you neighbour involved so there is no shock after it’s done.

Not trying to be 'ratty', I'm just not seeing how it's a cock up. It looks exactly like every one of those I've ever seen, and quite neatly finished. I would have expected exactly that unless I'd specifically asked for it to be low profile and laboured the point at length.

I think this is the key point. I'd have an honest discussion with your neighbour and ask them if they'd like it changing to be closer to your wall, explaining that this will mean the bottom of the flue is lower.

Super helpful, thank you. 

We're very fortunate to have a good relationship with next door, and they've already said they're willing to live with it, but out of principal I feel duty bound to try my best to sort it out. I don't think we deserve for them to be so forgiving. 

Remembering they'd be within their rights to say no, drill a new, higher hole in the wall.

Can I suggest you ask or otherwise try and find out why you got that design. Laziness/lack of planning wouldn’t be appropriate for a court.

I can think of many reasons why you could have got that design and that is as a layman. (Eg of the top of my head, you said you wanted black and only that design was available in black at the time, you wanted a quick job done and only that design was available, to get a good draw it was better with a 45° exit).  If you can’t narrow down and (potentially) show a court what they did was wrong and is not acceptable for x, y, z etc reasons, and ideally back up with independent reports, then you are unlikely to succeed. Just being realistic from my past training, jobs and experience (including CAB advisor).

Maybe, quickly try and accept and put a generous gift by way of apology to you neighbour is the way I would go personally “if” it does work and there are no known faults or failures known on the installation or contractor’s work.

They say that people go into courts as pigs and come out as bacon. As mentioned above, it may not go your way and could cost you a lot more than £600.

Explain the dilemma to the neighbours. Apologise profusely. Then offer your neighbours £300* for the permanent and irrevocable right to have the pipe there. Stick some 'mind your head' warning on it, in case of very tall visitors. Move on with life.

Yes, I know there is a principle at stake. But, there are lots of stories about people fighting over inches of land, due to a principle. It taking years and costing loads, inducing stress etc. Protect the good will of the neighbour. Write it off to experience.

*£300, and you've suddenly saved £300 on the project. They may not even take the cash. But get them something, a posh hamper or similar.

Thank you. You win the best comment prize.

I'm going to take the weekend to allow my bruised ego to recover / sense of pride to drain away, then I'll likely pursue exactly this (we've already shown major contrition / given them a card + nice bottle of wine, but this is a great idea to open discussions of rights etc). 

Interesting photo - looks like both you and your neighbour already had other things that stick out further and presumably overhang the neighbouring property further too even before the flue was installed. It also shows what a dingy, claustrophobic corridor that space already is... nice of your neighbour to be accepting (maybe they asked for advice from others too before deciding keeping the peace with you was the better way to go) but I wouldn't worry overmuch about its effect on them - there are no windows there, they are only ever going to be passing it for a few seconds to get from the front to the back and certainly to my mind, the main impact is the visual effect of having such a great big structure sticking out of the side of the house, irrespective of how close it is to the wall.

I would absolutely graciously accept your neighbours acceptance with this, you spoke about your sense of honour but it sounds like you already hounded the installer and their governing body and got nowhere, now you have a unified UKC opinion that a court case will also get you nowhere. Sounds like all you have to decide is if that honour really needs to stretch to forking out for modifications yourself.

It might help to assuage your sense of guilt if you consider your neighbours acceptance a favour that can be repaid at a later date, like when they want to build a new shed and need you to agree for it to be too close to your boundary or the boundary fence needs fixed and you pay more than your share of the cost.

Maybe you could decorate the flue to make it less offensive: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dlvmdm2WsAAdLTE?format=jpg&name=large

I think the point about the neighbours word counting for nothing when either your or their house is sold is worth considering.

This appears to be exactly the kind of thing that surveys and purchasers solicitors tend to get excited about. This can count for nothing in a buoyant market but can be very tricky in more challenging times.

A very quick mock-up in photoshop of how it would look if closer to your wall:

If I were the neighbour I'd be happy enough to live with the flue, but there's no way I'd be doing this.

As Brown points out above:
"This appears to be exactly the kind of thing that surveys and purchasers solicitors tend to get excited about. This can count for nothing in a buoyant market but can be very tricky in more challenging times."

It would have the precise opposite effect on me. 
"Hi, that thing you said..  I'm not willing to take your word for it so can you just put it in writing and sign it in blood please?  Perhaps in return for a relatively small amount of money."

Honestly it would get me thinking maybe I'd been a bit too nice about it so far and they were starting to take the piss.

If you're talking about some sort of "permanent and irrevocable" agreement perhaps in the form of a covenant added to the deeds of the neighbours' house, I think you're probably forgetting some legal fees there.

Yes. I think the OP is well aware given their last comment above … “but this is a great idea to open discussions of rights etc)”. It’s in both parties’ interests to openly discuss and conclude now (esp if in some harmony and acceptance/agreement even if verbal currently exists) rather than ignore.

OP and their neighbour probably need some time to think it through though what they wish to do - it’s up now - so taking the weekend to pause and reflect as the OP said is good. Hope it works out well for them both.

That does look quite a bit better.  I wonder if there is something else here though -  I think there has to be a 200mm (or something) separation of a flue from combustible materials.  Does that present problems where it's close to the roof timbers?

That might not be practicable, depending on the ceiling height. It's probably moot anyway, as it depends on what any other design might look like.

I'd also be wary of bringing the top of the flue too close to that soffit/fascia board, depending on what it's made of.

The external flue, and the internal flue before it goes through the wall, should , by law, be double skinned. It think that brings the separation from combustible material down to something like 60mm. (Not an expert, so don't quote me on that).

In a somewhat radical move, I've kept the flue in the same place as the original and moved the house to reduce the gap.  Looks OK to me.
I've also removed the barcode label from the drainpipe as it was slightly annoying

The photo caption 😩

And better hope if they move before the OP* the new neighbours aren't familiar with Section 2(2)(g) of the Party Wall Act 😬

* - and by some miracle the sale goes through without their solicitor finding out and opening the gates to hell

HTF do you have that clause on the tip of your tongue!!?

The Party Wall Act is what came to my mind. I'm not sure if the installer has responsibility to ensure the act is followed and all written consents are in place. Or does the responsibility fall to the client.

If the installer does have this responsibility then the OP has a valid case.

I would suggest the OP calls citizens advice on this one.

Have you seen the first photo in the OP's opening post?

If you search for similar issues it comes up in loads of forum posts.

Irt montyjohn:

Not sure it's in the OPs interests to pull at that thread. I think going down that road can only end with "You did what? You need to get it taken down and put it through another wall". 

The issue is if the OP sells, or the neighbour sells, this is going to crop up.

By which time the installer is long gone.

If the installer has been negligent it's better to know now.

What about it?

If it the installers responsibility to carry out due diligence regarding the party wall act then they can't just push this responsibility on the client.

To the OP, how much space is there between your wall and the boundary. The answer is rarely zero.

It's not. It's the owner's. Have you done any research at all on this?? Pretty hard to miss that.

Really?? What universe's boundary walls are you used to?

It's pretty obvious from the OP and the pic that neither wall is a party wall.  The OP is saying that the flue over-hangs the boundary line between the two plots but wouldn't if it were closer in to their side, so it's not at all unreasonable to assume that the boundary line runs down the middle of the space between the two houses.

Oh ok, I hadn't read it that way. Looked to me like it's a boundary wall and the path is the neighbour's.

Edit: Zooming in on https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/map-search/find-b... makes me think I interpreted it right.

Where is this clearly stipulated? Do you have a link? All I have found is similar cases involving sky dishes where sky have returned to fix the problem (I assume at their cost). Whether they are legally required to or are doing it for PR reasons is unclear.

It's a house wall not a boundary wall.

It's a boundary wall as defined in the party wall act. Read things before you argue about them.

Only if the house was built on the boundary which unless I've missed it the OP hasn't confirmed yet.

For example, my neighbours extension wall is about 100mm from our boundary so there is no boundary wall between us.

Yeah I'm sure there's another simple explanation, like they built the continuation fence a foot inside their plot, or the planners put a kink in the boundary for a laugh and didn't put it on the map....

If that is the boundary, then any pipe on the gable would seem to be in the neighbouring property.

It wouldn't be the first cheeky land grab. But you're probably right that the wall is on the boundary.

Why you didn't just explain that you're basing your assumption on the fence instead of back and forth sarcastic responses in beyond me.

Anyway, in this case unless the OP has an easement in their deeds or a clearly written statement from the neighbours then they could be in some big trouble here. OP is effectively trespassing into their neighbours land. Satellite dish is doing the same thing unless it's been there for 20 years. 

I could be wrong but I suspect that letter (if it exists) needs recording in the deeds somewhere so I would be speaking to a solicitor regardless.

In reply to FactorXXX:

How did you get the address? Probably best deleting it as OP may not want it on a public forum.

Edit: Reference to location of address details removed
Will repost without the exact address details.

Yes. That's where we started isn't it? 😉

Edit: Reference to location of address details removed

Boundary details of OP's property:

Oh dear. Good spot. If I was the OP I'd ask for it to be removed as I assume it's there by mistake.

The OP seems to be proposing moving closer into the house, which wouldn't seem to solve problems with the neighbours, even if it looks.neater.

I don't want to Streisand-effect it but it's really not hidden.

Yes, that's where we were at 19:38 on Friday isn't it? 😉

Too late for that

Looks like you got what was was illustrated.

Personally I'd have never agreed on the job based on that random sketch from the fitter and if I were your neighbour I'd never have given you permission to stick a chimney like that over the boundary into my property. What would happen If the neighbours wanted to alter their property at some point in the future but can't because of this chimney?

Not really a problem; it's on their plot, they would just cut it off. Section 2(2)(g) of the Party Wall Act covers this.

Hate to be a PITA about this, but given that you were always going to intrude on your neighbour's property if you wanted a flue up that wall... they seem to have made a pretty neat job which neither you or your neighbour will notice in a few weeks.

As for the long term, two expressions spring to mind, both of which I fall back on in situations like this: 1) In the long term, we're all dead, and 2) 'Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.' (Said in a very strong broad Scouse accent by someone I used to work with. It's usually true though.)

Haha. Essentially the conclusion I've come to over the weekend (and to be fair, our neighbours' first response, too).