UKC

Yesterday, I was told by my boss that he thought I should leave. His reasons being:
- I am not the "fit" they are looking for for the company (although I have been there 15 months)
- I am wasted in the job and they can see "so much better things for me" (although loads of my colleagues have been praising how good my work to help them has been)
- I disrupt the office (including "butting in to peoples conversations". I hadn't realised that providing information that I have, that they are asking about, was not allowed!)
- My customer service skills have not improved (even though my job is mainly an office based admin job)

Basically, they want to fire me, but don't have grounds. So are telling me they don't want me, enough to make me quit.
I have been asked to go back to work on monday to tell my boss what I want to do:
- stay working (with support and time off etc. to find a new job)
- just leave
- I suppose the 3rd option is to stay! that would really rock the boat!

My plan at the moment is to tell them that I won't be going back, but I do want 1 month's wages. I don't want to be working for someone who doesn't want me there! I expect they will be filling my post, so the worst thing I can do is to leave them to it, to realise how much work I actually do for them!

Is there any advice anyone can give me on the best way to go about this meeting on monday. And any other bits of info I can use in my favour.

I think I am just in shock at the moment.

In reply to Robynbobbin: Hmm. You need to get some advice and FAST. Maybe Citizens Advice Bureau tomorrow.

If you don't get advice by Monday, consider pulling a sicky so you can get some independent advice on Monday.

Either way, they're not being professional about it and I'm pretty sure they're not following their company's procedures (many of which are statutory whether they like it or not).

In reply to Robynbobbin: if yo have been in a job over a year you have rights, they have to give a dam good reason to get rid of you. eg..to many sick days, not meeting sales targets, you see were i am comming from. yes i suggest you get more advise, citizens advice or i know there are other organisations like this JOB CENTRE may be able to give you some numbers. hope that helps....LEE

In reply to Robynbobbin: Firstly you don’t have to do anything, so you do not need to make a decision by Monday. Get advice, see what else is around and you might as well wait until you have another job to go to. They can only terminate your contract on the grounds of redundancy or inability to do your job. They would normally avoid the last one since it’s easy to claim unfair dismissal. Redundancy means they cannot replace you or it would become unfair dismissal. Don't do anything that would give them grounds for dismissal.

In reply to Robynbobbin:

The problem is though, that now I KNOW they don't want me... I don't want to be there.
They have tried to make it out that it would be best for me to find a new job. I think they like me enough to want to help me to get out (and not make a fuss).

In reply to Robynbobbin:

If you leave you can probably sue for constructive dismissal.

Don't need to do anything by monday - its your career unless they fire you or make you redundant.

Stay.

It'll call their bluff; if you have mates there tell them about it and stick it out, oif you can.

In reply to Robynbobbin:

You don't have to give them a decision about whether you want to leave or not the onus is on them to show you aren't able to do the job.

If you want to walk away on Monday I'd start the meeting by saying "I like the job and want to stay" whether you do or not, it implies sacrifice on your behalf to leave giving an excuse to extract more money. It'll also make them think the meeting is going to go off quietly so if you do want to throw a wobbly it'll have more impact. (They're probably going to be nervous as well).

Start high with the amount you're asking for, say six months pay rather than one. They'll try and knock you down regardless of what you ask for. When they do talk about possible relocation costs and how hard it is to get a good job at the minute.

If they give you a document to review and sign about leaving ask for them to pay for in independant legal advice. If they don't it will count against them if you take them to a tribunal.

They certainly don't sound like an employer worth staying with but its always easier to get job if you're employed. In your position I'd try an tough it out while I found something else rather than leave immediately.

In reply to Robynbobbin: I really feel for you here, because I've been screwed by two employers before, once I pursued tribunal proceedings and they settled before it got there (I won). The second time I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, so even though I knew I had grounds, didn't want to pursue it because it's a bit unpleasant and so on.

Thing is - I WISH I HAD NOW!

If this thing gets sour and you think you're getting screwed or they do actually screw you over, my advice to you would be to pursue it.

One thing you've got to bear in mind is that MOST employers know that the employee has the power to get them back if they don't follow the law. So if they've got any sense, they will tread carefully.

To quote from the bbc site, regarding unfair dismissal.
"There is also an indirect form of dismissal that could lead to a claim, and this happens when an employer treats the employee in a way that means they can't do their job. An employer could make the employee's life very difficult by changing their terms or conditions without consultation, or changing the job location at short notice, or accusing an employee of being incapable of carrying out the job.

If the employer's actions amount to a fundamental breach of contract, the employee can resign and claim constructive dismissal."

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/law/unfairdismissal.shtml

There is alot of information on the internet if you look for it btw.

I'm no professional and my advice would be to seek some qualified advice but here's my two penny's worth.

From the information you've given, it sounds like they are bordering on constructive dismissal. You need to wait and see what they say on Monday. Either way, if they want to fire you, they have to have a reason. As far as I understand it, they can't force you to resign! If they put in a position where you think you have no choice but to resign you might be able to resign and claim constructive dismissal. If they fire you and you think it's unfair and/or they haven't followed proper procedure, told you what they think you need to improve on and given you chance to improve it etc, then you may have grounds for unfair dismissal.

Do some trawling on the internet.

Also, if you have it, have a look through your company's grievance procedure and also their discipliniary procedure.

Probably my biggest piece of advice is FOLLOW YOUR GRIEVANCE PROCEDURE. If they screw you over you will have a MUCH stronger case if you have followed the grievance procedure (you may not have a case at all if you don't). This will usually take the form of first discussing your concerns/grievance verbally with your line manager. If still no joy, you put your grievances into writing to your line manager. They are then obligated to look into and reply to you in writing. If still no joy you put your grievances into writing to the next senior person from your line manager.

Employment law is very complicated but you should be able to get some good professional advice from somewhere.

In reply to MD: Sound advice. That's the other thing Robyn, you have to be strong! I know it can VERY hard to stand up to an employer, especially when it's just you against the whole company - it takes real strength to do it. It won't be easy - it'll likely be very stressful - but put all that energy into standing up for yourself - LEGALLY. Don't lose your rag with them whatever you do - be passionate if you must but don't lose control. Whatever bullshit they play, remember it doesn't mean they're right, you stick to procedure and go with your gut. If something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't and there's probably a law against it somewhere. Employment law is there to make sure you're treated fairly, and that means 'fairly' in the most basic sense of the word. It's just the law needs to be complicated. If it doesn't seem fair, it most likely isn't.

Good luck!

In reply to Robynbobbin: Look, I'm going to take a different view here to the received wisdom here - as an employer I have used all the terms here to let people know that we were't getting on and it was time to part company. And of course, it's most difficult for people who expect it least.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation (and there are always two sides, of course), there's never going to be any fun to be had working for a company that doesn't appreciate you. Legally, my understanding is that unless you're a football manager or something, any sort ot compensation or whatever you could hope to recover will be trivial. So, deep breath, put aside your feelings of shock (though you may wish to consider how you have misread the situation fairly quickly) and prepare to negotiate a graceful exit: consider asking for a notice period that will enable you to find another job, maybe 3 months, or sooner if/when you find another job (your call), agree that they will give you glowing references with a reason for leaving that will be credible to future employers, e.g. restructuring, deskilling, whatever.

I'm bound to be flamed for this but it's the advice I would give my kids.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I would tell her to go to ACAS and ask them for advice, that is their remit after all. They will tell her what she can realistically expect to happen and how to proceed;

http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=528&detailid=597

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Thanks Rob. I think this is what they were hoping for, but they want me to work during this period. I think I'll be happy if they pay me my minimum notice period and I can just get out.
If they don't agree, then I'll start thinking about alternatives.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if it will count for constructive dismissal. Close, but no cigar.
[I did find a webpage that suggested it would have counted, but then I realised it was in New Zealand!]

In reply to Robynbobbin:

Oh, by the way. The initial contract I signed for the company has 8 weeks notice on it. I have signed a new one since, which had changes on it about holiday and commission, but I can't remember if the notice period had changed. The new contract is currently in my work desk drawer - DOH!

In reply to Robynbobbin:

String it out until you are ready to leave them.

In reply to Robynbobbin:

Robyn

I'm an employer and this looks pretty much like constructive dismissal.

1. You should write everything down that you can remember from today's discussion, as verbatim as you can.

2. You need to accept that you will be going. The issue is on what terms. The variables are money, time and references.

3. Not being mean, but do they have grounds - have you done a good job, or is performance a bit haphazard?

4. They are raising the issue to avoid a long performance-management issue or redundancy selection process. The compromise is for them to pay you off.

So, Monday. Confirm, and write down, the purpose of the meeting, who's attending and agenda. If HR are involved, then they should run a clear process.

One option is to take a tape recorder and ask to use it. It will be a clear record that both sides are being fair and following a proper process. They will HATE this and either cancel the meeting, or they'll be much more guarded.

Alternatively, suggest that this looks like constructiove dismissal (unable to continue in role because they make it untenable so have to resign though no grounds to dismiss you) and that a compromise agreement is the only acceptable route for you. This would include both money (I'd take your notice period, add leave due and 2 months) and an agreed reference which you should draft (needs to be factual). If you have *any* inkling that this is a race or gender issue then their liability on losing a tribunal is unlimited. Otherwise it's capped at around £50k. They will not want a tribunal - it's a world of hurt for companies to prepare and defend...and it sounds like they've got it wrong here. Some legal firms will do tribunals on no-win-no-fee.

If they're filling your post, then they have to prove that you're not performing...and that takes a series of reviewsa and warnings; they can't just get you to leave unless they pay you off.

Remember to stay calm, write everything down or record it and that you hold most of the cards here.

Good luck - and let us know how it goes.

John

In reply to Robynbobbin:

As another employer now (but also as someone who was once in exactly the same position as you) I tend to agree with the previous poster. There is not much fun to be had going to a tribunal by anyone and an employer will want to avoid tribunals as they are notoriously inconsistent and cost lots of senior management time - hence they will quite often settle before a tribunal because it's cheaper. However you would probably get a better deal by asking for say three months tax free pay as "compensation for loss of office" and a decent reference. It is a much more mature way of dealing with a situation where quite frankly you are not working together well and you'd be better off and happier somewhere else.

In reply to Robynbobbin: Even if you managed to prove constructive dismissal, who would it help? You would have a blot on your CV that a shrewd employer would always winke out - and the money would be trivial. But DO negotiate for a good reference - that's definitely worth it. Ask to see it before you go.

In reply to Slugain Howff: Yes, I think that's more or less what I am advocating!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Good.
This is what I thought too. Minimum fuss on both sides, and everyone is hopefully happy.
My boss has promised a good reference. I think he really doesn't want to see me wasted.

Thanks everyone.

In reply to Robynbobbin:

Do remember to point out to your employer that "compensation for loss of office" is tax free to him too (ie. no employers national insurance).

In reply to Robynbobbin:

If they want to terminate your contract - then you may be able to file for unfair-dismisal

If they make you resign in haste - then its constructive dissmissal you can claim.

You reeally need to check the contract you signed and what the contrsct of employment was - disregarding the notice period.

Mail me if you want some HR advice - its sounds very, very iffy to me..

Cheers

Si