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God forgives you

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 Jon Stewart 07 Jan 2022

After a really interesting discussion about free will and what not on here, this popped up on youtube (7mins):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRaxXL021ME&ab_channel=MeaningofLife.tv

Bob's a good bloke.

 freeflyer 08 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Absolutely excellent, thankyou. He hopped nimbly over an abyss or two there; I have subscribed! I was a bit surprised he didn't go on to hint at what might be the source of love and forgiveness, if God didn't exist.

This morning I was looking at the phrase 'That Thou Art' and trying to understand it, a similar exercise.

Happy New Year.

ff

 Jon Stewart 08 Jan 2022
In reply to freeflyer:

I haven't read his book "why Buddhism is right" or something, but I should do. He expresses the exact viewpoint I hold on consciousness, covered well in the mini lectures - similar to John Searle.

 Timmd 08 Jan 2022
In reply to freeflyer:

Self love and forgiveness seems to be the source of it for others, from what I've absorbed by osmosis, from a few Buddhism and psychology related things on my facebook feed and books and internet browsing, with a peaceful inner place being where that best stems from, though it isn't a one-time thing, we need to cultivate it. If one looks at how judgemental and things narcissistic people or narcissists can be, there's a correlation between their own lack of self love, and what they think and feel about other people, it being an outward projection of what is going on internally.

Edit: This coincidentally ties in with the book 'Why Buddhism is right' I guess.

Post edited at 12:17
 freeflyer 08 Jan 2022
In reply to Timmd:

Seems to me you have absorbed quite a lot! 👍

 Jon Stewart 08 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I haven't read his book "why Buddhism is right" 

Just seen that he wrote something called The Moral Animal, which sounds right up my street too. I'm really keen on scientific explanations of morality, as in Jon Haidt The Righteous Mind, and Stephen Pinker attacks it in Enlightenment Now.

I've changed my views a lot on morality from reading about it and watching youtube. First I was a moral nihilist; then I believed in Sam Harris' moral realism; then Sean Carroll persuaded me that constructivism is the way to go....

 Timmd 08 Jan 2022
In reply to freeflyer:

> Seems to me you have absorbed quite a lot! 👍

Maybe I have, I dunno really. I guess most of us err towards love and forgiveness because we understand it's the right/helpful thing to do, but it making being a human being a more agreeable experience doesn't do any harm too, it's an enlightened self interest thing. Clear eyed self interest.

nb: It's not always easy for sure, though...

Post edited at 13:09
In reply to Jon Stewart:

God offers forgiveness but you can't experience forgiveness if you don't think you have done anything wrong so first you have to realise your guilt.

This is what Bob did at the start of the video before his thoughts focused on the "trancendental vantage point that love was emanating from" (a partial description of God) and that was when he experienced forgiveness.

 Jon Stewart 10 Jan 2022
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> God offers forgiveness but you can't experience forgiveness if you don't think you have done anything wrong so first you have to realise your guilt.

Is this about voting for Keir Starmer?

Joking

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Is this about voting for Keir Starmer?

Don't be silly; Corbyn is God...

In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Is this about voting for Keir Starmer?

> Joking

Ha! Don't lose hope, we're all sinners and even Starmerites can repent and be forgiven.

 squarepeg 11 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Boris Johnson can't, according to this place. 

In reply to squarepeg:

> Boris Johnson can't, according to this place. 

What...?

 Jon Stewart 11 Jan 2022
In reply to squarepeg:

> Boris Johnson can't, according to this place. 

Jimmy Saville lost his popularity too, poor guy.

 Stichtplate 12 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Jimmy Saville lost his popularity too, poor guy.

Jimmy was a devout catholic (of course) honoured by John Paul II no less. Hope nobody's judging Big G by the company he keeps. If they are, they could be forgiven for assuming he's a proper wrong un....on top of all that murder, mayhem, genocide, demanding child sacrifice, forcibly impregnating innocent virgins, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

Jesus! Come to think of it, God's definitely a wrong un!

In reply to Stichtplate:

Nah, she just published the wrong rule book for a giggle .

 Phil1919 12 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I've just read a book by Alain de Boton, 'Religion for Atheists' which I found very convincing. That there are many good bits about religion even if you don't believe in a God, that our secular society has failed to cover.

In reply to Stichtplate:

I don't think he ever claimed to be "devout". Whenever he was interviewed he was always very cagy about his beliefs and practice. It suited the Church to accept his "rough diamond " persona, demonstrating the all encompassing character of the Catholic God ie nobody is excluded. 

Saville fooled most of the people most of the time. If only he'd been found out before he died.

Post edited at 11:02
 Duncan Bourne 12 Jan 2022
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> Saville fooled most of the people most of the time. If only he'd been found out before he died.

Then he could have been made a priest

 John Ww 12 Jan 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Then he could have been made a priest

Chapeau 🙏😂

 Stichtplate 12 Jan 2022
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> I don't think he ever claimed to be "devout". Whenever he was interviewed he was always very cagy about his beliefs and practice. It suited the Church to accept his "rough diamond " persona, demonstrating the all encompassing character of the Catholic God ie nobody is excluded. 

The Catholic News Agency claimed him as a devout Catholic before it all came out.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/23734/sir-jimmy-savile-and-the-saint-in-the-making

Channel 4 news reckoned he described himself as such also 

"Savile, who described himself as a devout Catholic, was made a Knight Commander of St Gregory the Great by Pope John Paul II in 1990 for his charity work."

https://www.channel4.com/news/jimmy-savile-could-be-stripped-of-papal-knighthood

>Saville fooled most of the people most of the time. If only he'd been found out before he died

I'm well aware that both Jimmy Saville and the Catholic Church have a long, long history of telling enormous whoppers, but Channel 4 news? surely not.

Post edited at 11:56
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Jimmy was a devout catholic (of course) honoured by John Paul II no less. Hope nobody's judging Big G by the company he keeps. If they are, they could be forgiven for assuming he's a proper wrong un....on top of all that murder, mayhem, genocide, demanding child sacrifice, forcibly impregnating innocent virgins, etc, etc, ad nauseam.

> Jesus! Come to think of it, God's definitely a wrong un!

Big G keeps company with everyone. I think of it as all is one, god is the universe, omnipresent.

Jimmy Saville may well have claimed to be a devout follower of Christianity but his disgusting actions aren't compatible with a sincere attempt to follow Jesus. Anyone can put on a front for evil purposes.

And we all do put on a front where we try to show the world what we want people to see but people can't see our corrupt hearts where we swell with pride over the slightest ability that God has given us while hiding our vices, yet judging ourselves better than others. Nobody is righteous in God's sight. We all need to have that dark night of the soul, like Bob did at the start of the video, then our thoughts can be directed to God and we can experience forgiveness.

 Cobra_Head 12 Jan 2022
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Jimmy Saville may well have claimed to be a devout follower of Christianity but his disgusting actions aren't compatible with a sincere attempt to follow Jesus. Anyone can put on a front for evil purposes.

What about the crusades, the mass killings in gods name, does that go in the "Evil" or "Gods Work", column?

 Sir Chasm 12 Jan 2022
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

But surely god made Savile in his own image? And, being omniscient, knew what Savile was going to do; being omnipresent, knew he was doing it; being omnipotent, could have stopped it if he could be arsed. 

In reply to Sir Chasm:

He didn't want a Savile row.

Post edited at 01:57
 Stichtplate 13 Jan 2022
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Big G keeps company with everyone. I think of it as all is one, god is the universe, omnipresent.

Religions trot this stuff out a lot. Great big fluffy totally empty claims with no basis in anything.

> Jimmy Saville may well have claimed to be a devout follower of Christianity but his disgusting actions aren't compatible with a sincere attempt to follow Jesus.

As a Catholic, can't he genuinely say he's sorry and be instantly absolved?

>Anyone can put on a front for evil purposes.

Including God, presumably.

> And we all do put on a front where we try to show the world what we want people to see but people can't see our corrupt hearts where we swell with pride over the slightest ability that God has given us while hiding our vices, yet judging ourselves better than others.

Yeah, no. If you're going to get all judgey and blamey, and christ knows, the religious have got a shit ton of form in those areas, you've got to take the rough with the smooth. You don't get to say "those things you're good at, all your nice qualities...God gave you them. All your vices, corruption and sin, that's you that is"

>Nobody is righteous in God's sight.

So he's everything, in everything, created everything and he's still pissed off at everything? Maybe he should organise another of those flood things and wipe out every living creature bar a brace of each and start again (except the dinosaurs, he must have really hated the dinosaurs)

>We all need to have that dark night of the soul, like Bob did at the start of the video, then our thoughts can be directed to God and we can experience forgiveness.

Most people will have a "dark night of the soul" at some point. In fact, if you've reached middle age without experiencing several, you're either not doing enough, not feeling enough or not thinking enough. In response I suppose you could turn to god and have a good pray about it, hand over agency to some invisible deity and hope for the best, or you could just take a good look at yourself and sort your shit out.

 cb294 13 Jan 2022
In reply to Jon Stewart:

God forgives. Possibly.

I don't, or at least not everyone.

CB

 GrahamD 17:29 Thu
In reply to cb294:

> God forgives. Possibly.

Who ?

In reply to Stichtplate:

> Religions trot this stuff out a lot. Great big fluffy totally empty claims with no basis in anything.

> As a Catholic, can't he genuinely say he's sorry and be instantly absolved?

> >Anyone can put on a front for evil purposes.

> Including God, presumably.

> Yeah, no. If you're going to get all judgey and blamey, and christ knows, the religious have got a shit ton of form in those areas, you've got to take the rough with the smooth. You don't get to say "those things you're good at, all your nice qualities...God gave you them. All your vices, corruption and sin, that's you that is"

> >Nobody is righteous in God's sight.

> So he's everything, in everything, created everything and he's still pissed off at everything? Maybe he should organise another of those flood things and wipe out every living creature bar a brace of each and start again (except the dinosaurs, he must have really hated the dinosaurs)

> >We all need to have that dark night of the soul, like Bob did at the start of the video, then our thoughts can be directed to God and we can experience forgiveness.

> Most people will have a "dark night of the soul" at some point. In fact, if you've reached middle age without experiencing several, you're either not doing enough, not feeling enough or not thinking enough. In response I suppose you could turn to god and have a good pray about it, hand over agency to some invisible deity and hope for the best, or you could just take a good look at yourself and sort your shit out.

You can have that dark night of the soul and it's horrible and can go on for much more than a night. There are a number of coping mechanisms to get through it - read a book, turn to drink, get prescribed anti depressants, exercise. These are distractions (some more worthwhile than others) but I believe that at some point we will all come face to face with the perfection of God and we will judge ourselves, at that point we won't be able to turn to distractions.

God is giving people forgiveness, he's not pissed off at everything, he's not judgey, people just need to try to understand who and what God is and that is what can give rest to the soul.

At the end of the video there it seemed to me that Bob had come to an understanding about the nature of god and had some experience of forgiveness. As a result he had sorted his shit out, in particular with the realisation that "the same logic that suggests that you deserve forgiveness suggest that everyone else deserves forgiveness which in turn suggests that you should forgive everyone you're mad at".

That's the message of religion, don't judge others, love your neighbour as yourself. You've heard it all before but you can add love the lord your God when you understand the lord your God as the universe rather than your self.

Holding the ego dear leads to evil actions and a background feeling of guilt. Letting go of the ego leads to a good life and a background feeling of joy.

In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> God is giving people forgiveness, he's not pissed off at everything, he's not judgey, people just need to try to understand who and what God is and that is what can give rest to the soul.

You seem extraordinarily enlightened about the reality of your 'God'. But I have a problem. Can you please explain to me why you give this alleged all-powerful being a gender, particularly since most of the earliest primitive religions regarded a 'Mother Goddess' as reigning supreme. Why on earth (or heaven, or wherever) do you refer to 'he'? If your answer is based on some kind of sexual theory, I'd be most interested to hear at least the rudiments of the theory. Do you perhaps envisage some kind of female goddess/wife lurking in the background? And surely they would then progenitate? In which case we'd be faced with the absurd possibility of a 'son' or 'sons of God'? That would be really daft, wouldn't it? ––

– Oh, gosh, what am I saying? Have just realised that a lot of folks have claimed exactly that. ... OOPS!!!

 Stichtplate 02:45 Fri
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Holding the ego dear leads to evil actions and a background feeling of guilt. Letting go of the ego leads to a good life and a background feeling of joy.

For somebody so concerned with letting go the ego, you certainly seem very sure that you're right and the 95% of the population that don't believe in your particular definition of God are all wrong.

Just saying

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's just an anthropomorphism. As the supreme and almighty being, God transcends gender but can also be related to so is referred to in a relatable way. The choice of he rather than she is because that's how you usually hear God described. In times gone by power and authority has usually been held by men so culturally it would have seemed disrespectful to call God she. That's no longer the case in our modern culture so I don't have a problem with someone using she but it does stick out when you hear it that way and I'm not trying to make a political point so I'm just sticking with tradition.

In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> There are a number of coping mechanisms to get through it -

Believe in god? Or a secular messiah:...?

 mk one 00:33 Sat
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

Nothing better than religion to divide the Human race, from each other and the rest of nature, to cause untold grief and misery, fear and anxiety.

You say God is not Judgy, that one should not judge another, yet also say that one should seek forgiveness, implying judgement. Is that not a part of your religious views, that a person will be judged and punished if they do not seek forgiveness? that they will be punished for their sins, with oh, i don't know, an eternity chained in the depths of hell, where there is but pain.

In past times Mother Earth was considered the giver of life. Just saying 

 Ciro 11:33 Sat
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> It's just an anthropomorphism. As the supreme and almighty being, God transcends gender but can also be related to so is referred to in a relatable way. The choice of he rather than she is because that's how you usually hear God described. In times gone by power and authority has usually been held by men so culturally it would have seemed disrespectful to call God she. That's no longer the case in our modern culture so I don't have a problem with someone using she but it does stick out when you hear it that way and I'm not trying to make a political point so I'm just sticking with tradition.

A tradition (much like male only priests in the catholic church) that helps perpetuate feelings of gender inequality and gender roles amongst those who believe in the abrahamic god.

Giving your god the they/them pronouns would surely be a small progressive step that you could make?

Perhaps you could have "parent, child and holy spirit" too?

 Timmd 17:15 Sat
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> But surely god made Savile in his own image? And, being omniscient, knew what Savile was going to do; being omnipresent, knew he was doing it; being omnipotent, could have stopped it if he could be arsed. 

The same logic strikes me with the whole 'Suffering exists because God gave humanity freewill' narrative, so god knew Eve was going to be tempted in the Garden of Eden and suffering would happen for evermore, and was okay with that, while being a kind and loving god as well. 

Since god knew it was going to happen (because of in depth knowledge of his own creation, and being omnipresent and all powerful), doesn't that potentially call into question the concept of freewill, too? 

Post edited at 17:18
In reply to Timmd:

There is a poster here known to me personally who I apologise to in advance BUT...

To me, the only sensible way to resolve all the issues around religion are ... it's all baloney.

I can understand how it  evolved, as we did, and how it made sense when we couldn't even explain why the sun rose every morning. But now? Nah.

I don't know how everything began, maybe that was a god ... but taking an interest in the affairs of one species, on one planet, out of an almost infinite selection of other possible planets? Not to mention positing the existence of an other world, only accessible to us once entropy starts its' inexorable grip? No. Occams razor, methinks

 Stichtplate 21:02 Sat
In reply to Timmd:

> The same logic strikes me with the whole 'Suffering exists because God gave humanity freewill' narrative, so god knew Eve was going to be tempted in the Garden of Eden and suffering would happen for evermore, and was okay with that, while being a kind and loving god as well. 

God may be okay with inflicting suffering on the innocent for evermore, but I'm not. If I'm wrong and there is a God, I'd still tell them to go f*ck themselves.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-59995296

One example amongst a million, year in year out.

 Stichtplate 22:21 Sat
In reply to captain paranoia:

Spot on Captain, and I'll hold your coat

 mondite 23:25 Sat
In reply to cb294:

> God forgives. Possibly.

Maybe although condemning people to burn in hell for eternity (granted some variations are its just not being in gods presence and a few even more refined until the sinner acknowledges the sin) is a tad beyond even what I would consider reasonable levels of not forgiving. I can think of several people who deserve repeated kicks in the nuts but even then I think after a few thousand years....

 GrahamD 09:34 Sun
In reply to mondite:

The converse doesn't sound that great, either.  An eternity sitting on a damp cloud listening to harp music.

To be fair, I'm sure that many people who seek solace in an imaginary god imagine something a bit more personal and benign.

In reply to Ciro:

> A tradition (much like male only priests in the catholic church) that helps perpetuate feelings of gender inequality and gender roles amongst those who believe in the abrahamic god.

> Giving your god the they/them pronouns would surely be a small progressive step that you could make?

> Perhaps you could have "parent, child and holy spirit" too?

Sorry. It would be a big deal for me. I relate to God as the father. It's a personal relationship and neutral pronouns just aren't personal. If someone else relates to God as the divine mother then that's ok.

I've had a little Google about this anyway and there are a few instances in the bible where God is presented as a mother but something that I hadn't thought of the other night, which may or may not be important, is that Jesus gives us the Lord's prayer where we are taught to address God as "Our father...".

In reply to mk one:

> Nothing better than religion to divide the Human race, from each other and the rest of nature, to cause untold grief and misery, fear and anxiety.

> You say God is not Judgy, that one should not judge another, yet also say that one should seek forgiveness, implying judgement. Is that not a part of your religious views, that a person will be judged and punished if they do not seek forgiveness? that they will be punished for their sins, with oh, i don't know, an eternity chained in the depths of hell, where there is but pain.

> In past times Mother Earth was considered the giver of life. Just saying 

I agree, the ego is strong in people and organised religion is used to divide more often than to unite. This is the opposite of the message that is shared by all true religion which is a variation on "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbour as yourself."

This seems to me a clear instruction to try to live without ego. The omnipresent Lord your God who you should try to love with all your heart is present everywhere in the universe - you are being asked to love the rest of nature with everything that you have. You should try to love your neighbour as yourself - how much effort do we put in to staying fed, healthy, comfortable, and trying to give ourselves the best experiences in life - you are being asked to put in at least the same effort for the lives of those who you can affect as you do for yourself.

None of us meet this standard, we all have an ego that brings us to prioritise our own wants and needs in front of those of others and when we follow this course we are choosing to separate ourselves from God. This creates in us a sense of unease or guilt that we are usually able to ignore but is always present in the background and can sometimes come to the fore and cause us serious anxiety or depression.

When we're unable to sleep full of self reproach thinking about bad things that we've done as is the example in the video, who is doing the judging? We're judging ourselves and it can seem to be the worst feeling there is. God wants us to turn to him which will inevitably result in a reduction in our ego which is what will give peace to our turbulent souls.

 Stichtplate 02:55 Tue
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> I agree, the ego is strong in people and organised religion is used to divide more often than to unite. This is the opposite of the message that is shared by all true religion which is a variation on "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbour as yourself."

Hmmm, and yet we've got a few thousand years of religious people using their religious differences to justify hurting each other. I've never heard of an atheist hurting another atheist because they'd strayed from the path of true atheism.

> This seems to me a clear instruction to try to live without ego. The omnipresent Lord your God who you should try to love with all your heart is present everywhere in the universe - you are being asked to love the rest of nature with everything that you have. You should try to love your neighbour as yourself - how much effort do we put in to staying fed, healthy, comfortable, and trying to give ourselves the best experiences in life - you are being asked to put in at least the same effort for the lives of those who you can affect as you do for yourself.

You do seem enormously wedded to this idea of God omnipresent, everywhere and in everyone. If you don't mind, I'll use the same source you do to justify believing in a male God, The Lord's Prayer. You quoted "Our Father..." but you missed out the rest "who art in heaven". So Jesus was pretty clear where his Dad was and it wasn't "everywhere".

I'm not simply being facetious (though you could be forgiven for thinking so), I'm demonstrating one of the logical fallacies constantly employed by the devout. They'll cite religious text to "prove" their particular beliefs are correct but conveniently ignore anything in the same text that contradicts them.

> None of us meet this standard, we all have an ego that brings us to prioritise our own wants and needs in front of those of others and when we follow this course we are choosing to separate ourselves from God. This creates in us a sense of unease or guilt that we are usually able to ignore but is always present in the background and can sometimes come to the fore and cause us serious anxiety or depression.

Nah. I can honestly say I've never felt any unease or guilt at not caring about my neighbour as much as I care about myself and it'd be insane if I strove to love next door's kids as much as my own. If, God forbid*, I tried to love next door's wife as much as my own, I can well imagine feeling a lot of unease and guilt. Funny that

*come to think of it, I think God does forbid.

> When we're unable to sleep full of self reproach thinking about bad things that we've done as is the example in the video, who is doing the judging? We're judging ourselves and it can seem to be the worst feeling there is. God wants us to turn to him which will inevitably result in a reduction in our ego which is what will give peace to our turbulent souls.

Nah. If I reflect on the shitty stuff I've done in life, I don't turn to an imaginary parent figure and start murmuring platitudes, sotto voce, in the hope of forgiveness. I use those shitty deeds and the bad feelings they cause as a guide to help me do better. The best way of easing psychological discomfort arising from past misdeeds, is to bury them in newer good deeds. No supernatural being required and the resultant positive actions have palpable, real life impacts immeasurably more potent than a night of mumbling into your pillow.

Post edited at 02:58
 Ciro 06:41 Tue
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Sorry. It would be a big deal for me. I relate to God as the father. It's a personal relationship and neutral pronouns just aren't personal. If someone else relates to God as the divine mother then that's ok.

You're not sorry - if you were sorry you would try to change.

 john arran 07:24 Tue
In reply to cumbria mammoth:

> Sorry. It would be a big deal for me. I relate to God as the father. It's a personal relationship and neutral pronouns just aren't personal. If someone else relates to God as the divine mother then that's ok.

> I've had a little Google about this anyway and there are a few instances in the bible where God is presented as a mother but something that I hadn't thought of the other night, which may or may not be important, is that Jesus gives us the Lord's prayer where we are taught to address God as "Our father...".

... which really just reflects the paternalistic society that was prevalent in those societies in which people devised Christianity. I haven't studied comparative religion but I would be amazed if the gender of the gods in, say, Hinduism, didn't also reflect the relatively maternalist society in which people created that religion.

 freeflyer 10:06 Tue
In reply to john arran:

You don't need to go as far as Asia - for example, worship of the Virgin Mary and the Black Madonna.

Male and female elements are a common theme in religious belief, inevitably, as these systems are attempting to describe something you can believe in, which represents something identifiable in your life and gives you emotional guidance in how best to live it.

Some people need a Mummy, and some people need a Daddy.


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