UKC

Afternoon all,
hope the middle of the week Isn't too bad for you all.

My friend is a lesbian and when it comes to discussing males, she gets quite animated about us and over the years, she has been quite insulting about males in general, normally after a beer or two.

Can't trust them, women are better than males, etc etc. None of this bothers me I just think she likes to fight the lesbian corner and she agrees with me that sometimes she does go a wee bit overboard about her opinion of men. Here other half Isn't like this at all and is very objective with her about the subject.

Now, she is a cracking lass and we are very good friends and my wife is pregnant so lots of talk about our next child. She asked me if I was bothered about the soon to be sleepless nights and I said "no, and you'll never have to worry about that will you!" Asking me why, I said, well you are adamant you never want to have anything to do with men, you are more than happy with your life and we have discussed in the past about you having babies and your answer was "I don't like men, I don't need anything from them especially sperm!"

Now granted that was a while ago but her attitude has changed as the clock is ticking and I think most women have that urge to reproduce at a certain age before it is too late. So when we were talking about it, she said well I may as well use the only useful thing a man has to offer to have a baby!

I told her that was a wee bit contradictory to her previous 20 odd years and I thought she secretly wanted a baby and why put on the front that she detests men and come up with such a stupid point that sperm is the only useful thing a man has just to try and keep up her anti male stance which I personally think is a bit of a front.

Even though we are really good friends and can talk about anything, she hit the roof! So I think she went mad because she is a wee bit embarrased about her previous anti male behaviour and it has always been a bit of an act to prove her lesbianism.

What do you all reckon? Good on her for having a baby if she really wants to but I think it is more of a "shit, time is running out, I've got the urge to have a baby so I'm going to!"

Anyone any views on this? Hoping to catch up with her when she calms down a bit.

Bloody women eh? ;0)

youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c&

What do you all reckon?


Lesbian or not, she sounds like painful company

In reply to Denni:

Let us know if she has a boy.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

Yes, maybe I should have mentioned that she is a good laugh, good personality and generally a wee bit stressed but good company.

It just seems to me that when there are a few of us and she has had a beer that she has to let everyone know she is a lesbian and sometimes acts like she is the only one on the world and I am a woman, hear me roar!

In reply to LastBoyScout:


Funnily enough, I thought about that and had a wee chuckle to myself!

In reply to Denni:

Sorry, I'm not quite clear about this.

Is she suggesting that you be her sperm donor and that you should make the donation "on draught" so to speak?

In reply to Removed User:

Not at all mate! I'm guessing it would be some sort of bank withdrawal which in itself is a contradiction...... :0)

In reply to Denni: to be honest I think it sounds like you're making a bit more of this than you need to in order to prove to yourself/her that you've been right all along (and by implication she's been wrong, should therefore eat humble pie, acknowledge your superior intellect etc etc). People do change, mature, develop, mellow as they get older - I know I don't have the exact same opinions on absolutely everything as I did 20 years ago! cut her some slack and just be happy for if she decides to go through with it.

In reply to ripper:

should therefore eat humble pie

Hasn't she been eating humble pie for the last 20 years or so?

In reply to MJ: you don't mean the lovely Ms Kate Humble I hope?

In reply to Denni: she sounds an awful person in general, lesbian or not

In reply to ripper:

I hear what you're saying mate but that Isn't the case. I've always just let her rant and never questioned anything she says or does, all different and all that.

Also, we always have good old chats about these things and her stance has always been anti male, wanting nothing to do with them and it is really out of the blue that she has had a sudden change of heart. As you say, most people, including myself change their views over the years, become more objective etc etc so It was a wee bit of a surprise that she suddenly wants the fruits of someones loom so to speak.

I'm always happy with whatever any of my mates want to do, as long as they ask me first ;0)

In reply to Denni: fair enough - probably best to just shrug and be happy that she's softened her previous militant stance a bit

In reply to Denni:

I guess the biological clock is the biological clock regardless of your sexuality.

Buy her a turkey baster for Christmas.

In reply to Denni:

If she's so anti male then why does she have a male friend (you)? S

In reply to ripper:

20 years ago, she was mili-tant from the viz!

In reply to Toby S:

Who knows. She has loads of male friends but she just acts a wee bit cat-woman when she has had a few beers and feels the need to explain she is the only gay in the village.

In reply to Denni: She doesn't exactly sound like great parent material to be honest.

In reply to Denni:

Does she kick off her comments with "I'm not a mysandrist, some of my best friends are men, but....."

In reply to Denni: I guess she's had to come to terms with it in more difficult times than people who are in the same situation now.

In reply to Neil Henson:

It's impossible to say from across the internet, it could just be a front.

In reply to Denni:


She sounds like an arsehole.

Apologies that that is a little harsh on your friend, but you did paint her as a complete arsehole in your OP. You can't be "anti" half the population of the world, it's absurd. People don't choose their gender. She needs to grow up before she starts bringing up a child.

In reply to Denni:
Shouldn't your rant be directed against sexist idiots, rather than lesbians?

Anyway, ask her what she'll do if she accidentally produces a sprog whose gender she disapproves of!

In reply to Denni:

Is it possible to be a true lesbian and want children? Personally that is something I just cant get my head round. If you are gay you forego the opportunity to reproduce don't you?

In reply to Denni:

This seems pretty private stuff: has she given you permission to discuss this in public in this way?

In reply to Blizzard:

Well, the urge to have sex and the urge to reproduce don't tend to correlate much in heterosexual people do they?

Are you saying that gay people should forego the opportunity to have kids (on some kind of moral ground that I don't understand), or that you would expect them not to want kids (but since the urge to have sex is so separate from the urge to have kids I don't know why that would be), or something else entirely?

In reply to Blizzard:

Who you fancy and whether you want to have/raise kids are different things. Do you only have sex with the aim of reproducing?

In reply to Denni: She's probably just on the rag mate.

In reply to Blizzard:

What are you on about?

Is there some sort of exam to sort out proper lesbians from fake ones?

Do you think that sex is for reproduction and not for pleasure?

In reply to Denni:

It's funny isn't it how a persons urge to reproduce does not diminish if they are attracted to people of the same gender.

I'm still not sure if I'm completely comfortable with gay couples having children. Not because I think it's un-natural or anything like that but I would be worried about whether it would impact upon the child's development. Would they be free to develop their own sexuality, would they get bullied for being 'the one with 2 mums', would they want to know who their biological father is???

Obviously there are plenty of children raised by a single gender parent (single parents)and the absence of a father figure is sometimes a difficult thing. Having said that, a 2 parent family, regardless of gender, is more likely to be better set up to provide care than a single parent family. Time will tell, it's a relatively new set of circumstances and if nothing else it will be interesting to see if there is still a stigma attached to gay parents in 20 years time.

In reply to Jimbo C:


Kids survive having gay parents perfectly fine if their parents are decent people. Kids don't often do well at all if they have parents who aren't decent people.

I worry far more about bad people having children than I do about gay people.

In reply to Denni:

If her partner chooses to be the bearing one then theres no issue. She can be lesbian and still have a kid.

She just needs to talk to more straight girls about it. Or does she dislike straight women too?

In reply to TobyA:

^^^^^^^
THIS!

In reply to Matt Rees: This question is one of the ongoing themes in Emmerdale at the moment.

In reply to Blizzard:


If you're gay you love someone of the same gender.

In reply to Jimbo C:


Fair enough. Your incomplete comfort isn't really relevant to someone else's desire to have children, though!


Is anyone? Why would this be much different with gay parents than with parents of any other sexuality? If anything, they're probably more likely to understand that the norm isn't the only way.


Probably at least a little. Much like mixed race kids will get bullied about that. Or those with ginger hair. Or tall girls, short boys, ugly kids, clever kids, stupid kids, anyone that stands out!

Surely bullying itself should be addressed, rather than avoiding producing anyone that might be bullied?


Probably. This isn't unique to kids of gay parents, though.


In fairness, your next paragraph addresses much of this anyway!

In reply to skog:



I wouldn't say it was a rant, more of trying to figure out the whole anti male thing turnaround when it suits her. As someone has said above, there is obviously still that urge to want to reproduce so maybe that is what has kicked in.

Also, someone asked if she would be happy with me discussing it on here. She wouldn't give a monkeys!

In reply to ice.solo:


No she is quite happy with straight women although she does get her knickers in a twist when her partner is out at work weekends with loads of other females. She is clearly insecure.

I think, in my opinion, her partner would be the better child bearer as she is mellowness personified and she is well up for having a child.

I had a chat with my mate last night and because we are good mates, I told her what I thought. I told her she has obviously had issues with a male in the past, she used to date men, and then she went completely anti male and over the years has backed herself into a corner with her stance and is too stubborn to admit this and change tactics.

Bless her, she is a good lass but the combination of the wrong company and a couple of beers doesn't do her any good. (it Isn't an alcohol problem by the way)

In reply to Denni: I feel really sorry for women who have clearly had such negative experiences of men that they feel the need dismiss all men. Very sad.

In reply to Denni:

i feel sorry for her (and not in a sarcastic way). like you say, she seems to have ended up in a corner.

a bit sad, because i think lesbians could make great parents if both feel the mother urge. with healthy males in the mix (the 'donor' plus guys like your good self who are supportive...maybe you could be both...) could work out well.

maybe some supportive effeminate gay guys could be the bridge towards renormalizing male relations..?
i hope it works out.

In reply to ByEek:

And do you also feel sorry for men who have clearly had such negative experiences of women that they feel the need to dismiss all women?

In reply to Denni: She could have kids without a sperm donation. There's adoption. That's what my wife and I are going through at the moment.

Kids without all that messy and disgusting sex business.

In reply to Al Evans:


Yep.

In reply to TobyA:

Very true, and that was at the back of my mind anyhow. I know a lesbian couple with a new born and I have to say that they will be far better parents than the folks you sometimes see down the shops telling their toddler to shut the f**k up. Also, there is no way that a lesbian couple can accidentally get pregnant with an unwanted child.

In reply to ByEek:

Have you ever met one of these people? Lesbians for example just just don't want to have sex with men. Denni's friend doesn't count, Denni is a man, she has a friendship with him.

In reply to The New NickB:


Yes. One of my close relatives has just split up with her partner, citing the fact that he treats her too well and wants a good fight / argument once in a while. Another friend prefers "bad" men who usually end up treating her like dirt. Both relate to low self esteem and confidence on their part. All terribly sad. Why should women not have high expectations on how men should treat them?

Regardless of sexual preference, the woman in question was described by the OP as saying "Can't trust them [men], women are better than males" which is a really sad thing to say. Yes, some men are utter barstewards, but the rest of us are kind, loving, respecting, and gentle fellows. It saddens me that some women will look at me as a man and instantly tar me with a brush that says I am not to be trusted.

Of course the same prejudices exist in men towards women and are equally negative, but possibly not within the context of this thread.

In reply to ByEek:
That is sad, but doesn't really relate to what you said in the context of this thread.

In reply to Jimbo C:

Not really. The desire to have sex is one in built biological urge, the desire to have kids is another. They're not that intimately connected, if they were, contraception wouldn't be so popular. Odd how nature works, isn't it?



I was brought up by straight parents, and I wasn't free to develop my own sexuality. I just turned out gay, 'cause that's how it works (much to my chagrin, to be absolutely frank about it). Maybe rethink your 'freedom to develop' perspective with a bit more evidence and/or consideration of reality.


Quite possibly. It would be something to be considered amongst all the other factors.


Yes probably. And???

In reply to Jon Stewart (and others) I've been working with kids for many, many years now. In recent years the 2 mums thing has become almost a non-issue because its much less unusual these days for kids to know someone who is out and be fine with it. Most classes in an average school will have someone with a gay aunty or uncle or other adult that they know. Parents may be less common, but not that unusual. One of the kids I taught recently had 2 dads, it wasn't a big deal. I've known several kids where mum has come out later in life, having had children with a male partner, again the kids have been no more traumatised by this as far as I can tell than any others where parents spilt. A friend of mine and her girlfriend have a lovely little boy (they are not man hating though!)

Kids are much better at dealing with this stuff than adults realise.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Ok, so I'm an old fashioned grump who needs to lighten up and stop trying to rationalise human nature

In reply to Denni:


Sounds to me like she's straight and hates men.

Just because you are a lesbian it doesn't mean you can't like men as people.

In reply to ClimberEd:

Sounds to me that someone has let their friend down by discussing them in public in this way: the real person may be very different. Imagine if they found out: the thread sure wouln't last long then.

There are some cringeworthy views on sexuality displayed here. Sexuality comes in many forms and even gender isn't clear at the boundaries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Having recently seen what a lesbian couple had to go through with social services in order to adopt two children you can be sure the safeguards are a lot stronger than in you average family.