UKC

I wondered if anyone has found much difference in network coverage between EE and Vodafone whilst out walking/climbing?

I’m not wanting to be on the phone a lot, but hoping to do more trips to the lakes/snowdonia/Scotland and possibly a longer (2-3 month) one in the coming year. 

I’m on EE now which generally gets reasonable signal in most places (I believe they do the emergency services contracts) but Vodafone is so much cheaper for the upgrade I’m looking at.

Any experiences would be welcomed.

I had the same problem about 10 years ago so I got a cheap second phone and a pay as you go Sim. I ended up ditching Vodaphone because EE was much better. 

Cost me about £30 to find out, £10 for the Sim and £20 for a S/H phone on ebay. 

EE is pretty good in the Lakes, certainly better than O2 which I used to be on. Expect to get the occasional "Welcome to the Isle of Man" text on some western fells, the coast or down in odd corners in Eskdale.

No personal experience of Vodafone but they have had repeated mast issues in Keswick, probably not a deciding factor though.

I moved from Vodafone to EE nearly 3 years ago now because of the better coverage in rural / hilly areas of the UK. Of course the 999 emergency number hops onto any network so if there's any mobile network you'll always be able to get help in an emergency (and the 999 text service'll work when there's a sketchy phone reception), but sometimes you just want to message home or check the weather forecast. I get a small blue light discount for EE but tbh I'd pay the full price for the wider reception.

Vodafone generally had the best coverage in upland areas. Then along came ESN and suddenly EE were being paid huge amounts of Government money to put up 4G masts for emergency service use. Most of those have sufficient backhaul capacity that they can also be used by the general public. So everybody started moving to EE. At the same time as they were doing that, combinations of funding were appearing that soon made that move futile for many users. Operator's commercial imperatives, joint ventures, UK Govt grants, and devolved administration grants allowed the other MNOs to replicate EE's expansion. 

Three often joined with EE on the same sites, expanding their 3G and 4G coverage. O2 and Vodafone expansion was done jointly across the Cornerstone sites and many sites that had been basic 2G GSM and GPRS without even an EDGE upgrade suddenly had full-on 4G and backfilled with a 3G fit providing hugely expanded voice and text capacity. 

Ofcom had freed up the old Channel Five frequency slot and a few other things and now new frequency bands started being used for 4G and 3G in rural areas with challenging terrain (most Highland 4G is 800MHz band). There is also some 3G on 900MHz instead of the 2100MHz craziness. 

In many mountain areas, this has completely changed the nature of mobile phone use. 

In addition to these changes, as I mentioned in the AML thread in 2019, in order to keep Ofcom off their backs, the four MNO came up with a scheme called Shared Rural Network that goes another step beyond the sharing I mentioned above. Just in the last few weeks they have been issuing press releases about the early stages of SRN. SRN has the potential to be very effective.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/shared-rural-network
https://srn.org.uk/

Another part of the picture are SIM cards that act like they are a foreign roaming SIM and operate on more than one network. Mountain users should be careful when choosing these. Several of these work on only EE, O2 and Three. In many mountain areas that adds up to the same coverage as Vodafone so you might as well have just used Vodafone and got a premium service. Check before you buy! 

CAUTION. Although coverage and capacity is almost universally improved for data, one needs to be aware that the four bars you might see for data coverage may have no meaning for voice and text. 

Native voice and text services are carried only on 2G and 3G networks. There are add-on services that carry voice on 4G but these are not part of the standard and should probably not be relied upon in an emergency. Where 2G or 3G is on 900MHz band the coverage can be reasonable in mountain terrain. However, where 2G is on 1800 MHz (on EE!), and 3G on 2100MHz or higher, coverage will be less and may be significantly less than 4G coverage on 800MHz. 

If the phone is to be the method for calling for help in a mountain emergency then make sure that you can establish your location regardless of data coverage. You can do this on smartphones by using one of the following apps.
GRID REFERENCE by Arthur Embleton, for Android
GPS OS GRID REFERENCE by Tomtrails, for Apple
OS LOCATE by Ordnance Survey, for Android or Apple.

Normal 999/112 calls on your own network using a modern smartphone should produce AML data
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/hill_talk/advanced_mobile_location-711788
which tells the control room your location. However, a few things need to join up for this to work so it is best to have that grid reference ready anyway. If your phone is AML-capable then it knows to switch on location services just to send the AML data.

If people are calling 999/112 using 999 Roaming ("Emergency Calls Only" situation) then preparation is key to a good result. Remember that old one about 'engage brain before opening mouth'? Well multiply by ten, and then some. Prepare all the vital information concisely before calling. The system cannot pick up your number and the control room cannot call you back. You may need to make an arrangement to call again in 15 or 30 minutes. AML has been in development for 999 roaming but I have not had it confirmed that this is a validated part of the system yet (ToDo List add!). 

https://www.emergencysms.net/files/3649_esms_6.pdf 

Interesting thanks. Although having had Vodafone’s customer service inflicted upon me a number of times, “premium service” made me laugh.  

Trying to get a real answer out of any of them can be a struggle.

Thanks Jim for that more than comprehensive response. It just about explains everything you wanted to know about mobile reception. As I used to live in Nant Peris I know what a pain it was, hence the phone box outside the Vaynol!

I have that Grid Ref app which is excellent. I wonder if it was time for an update on mobile procedures when the worst happens in the mountains. As you say, get your brain in gear.

Of course I think one still has to register beforehand to send text messages to the emergency services. An acquaintance had to text his wife to contact the emergency services for him when he needed rescuing, as he wasn't registered.

Instructions here: https://www.emergencysms.net/registering_your_mobile_phone.php

Have you asked EE to make you an offer? I was surprised to find that their published prices are significantly higher than what they would offer me on the phone when they could smell the possibility of a sale.

I have EE and Vodafone on one handset. I have never had O2 which is considered the best in my favourite part of the dales. However, there are still quite extensive areas in the Lakes where the reception is poor/non-existant. If it's just for safety, you could get a satellite device such as the InReach Mini (cheaper types are available) with a PAYG contract. 

A few weeks ago, I introduced some MRT members to mastdata.com.

This website started some time ago as an information exchange for those working in the industry, whether in electronics or shifting dirt, who wanted to keep track of upcoming work. Now it has developed beyond those basics and one of the facilities is a mobile app for Android that enables ordinary phone users to participate in surveying mobile coverage. 
https://www.mastdata.com/app-details.aspx

The app allows you to switch surveying on and off, to view your own survey data and view coverage maps. Running a survey wiil use some extra battery energy and some data but not excessively. You will probably know from experience of your normal usage whether that will be a problem. Remember that many of us are also running extra apps for COVID-19 already.

Most of the coverage data currently on Mastdata is in towns and along main roads. If we get hill users doing surveys then a number of things should happen. 

- Hill users will have access to real surveyed coverage in wild and mountainous areas they plan to visit
- MRT will have better information about coverage in their area, helping deal with difficult location of persons and assisting operational comms.
- Main Network Operators (MNO) and their contractors will have access to better information about not-spots in popular wild areas. 

Recently, during a MRT exercise where members were out across the area getting some hill time and doing comms practice, some of them ran surveys using the Mastdata app and some useful data was collected. Current restrictions are actually quite good for this data collection since everyone is so much further apart!

Even if it's just a run in the local woods, or walking the dog, you can usefully add to the coverage data outside the urban bubble. 

EE are just as bad. I'm on a business plan and it gets answered in a few rings but the odd time I have had to ring them from a different number I.  have been sat in a queue for up to a hour. Once you speak to someone and give them your business number though they transfer you internally and and it's great service. 

Do you know how this compares with the Opensignal app for functionality etc? It sounds similar.

Once you get your Covid jab, reception should improve dramatically.

Vodafone publish better coverage than EE in the lakes on their network checker, I was on Three and switched to Vodafone recently and its much better.

I'm afraid I don't remember very much about OpenSignal since it is quite some time since I stopped using it because it had become a pain to use. I don't remember anything like the useful interaction I am seeing on mastdata and I think it was very data orientated which is not my priority for hill user safety. 

thanks...I suppose the significance is that you moved on without a backward glance..might give mastdata a go.

Jim, thanks for the useful explanation of the past and current situations with regard to the various "G"s, services provided on each, coverage of each etc.  Just one question/request: can you clarify what you mean by "the old Channel Five frequency slot"?  We don't have a Single Frequency Network for terrestrial TV in the UK so I'm a little confused as to what you meant by that.

...OK, just done some research: when Channel Five first launched it was allocated UHF channels 35 and 37, which had not previously been allocated for terrestrial TV use.  At the time that interfered with a lot of VCRs which used one or other of those channels to send RF signals (via coax) to TV sets, and people had to be coached in changing the settings on their VCRs to avoid the clash (I do just about remember having to do this with my VCR).  However, since then those channels have never been re-allocated and they are still used for the broadcast of digital terrestrial TV.  One of the commercial multiplexes broadcast by our local transmitter uses channel 37, for example.

UHF channel 35 is 583.25-589.25 MHz and channel 37 is 599.25-605.25MHz.  AFAICS only one mobile phone technology uses anything in that range, the US "Digital Dividend" 5G technology which uses 617-652MHz and 663–698MHz.

More than happy to be put right if any of the above is incorrect.

I've just found out that you can get Vodafone coverage for half the price from Lebara, albeit without the "premium" (ha ha ha) service. I've just switched and it seems fine so far. I've not tried to call Lebara customer services, but it really can't be any worse than Vodafone.

>The app allows you to switch surveying on and off, to view your own survey data and view coverage maps. Running a survey wiil use some extra battery energy and some data but not excessively. You will probably know from experience of your normal usage whether that will be a problem. Remember that many of us are also running extra apps for COVID-19 already.

If you are on O2, there is the My Network app, from the app store.

It allows you to run a speed test and report on any issues in the network or see if there is engineering work in the area. The reports go back to O2, so their staff know there is an issue with a particular cell site. You can run an ad-hoc report or leave it running in the background.

Although Ch5 was on a wide range of channels across the UK, across most of Scotland, and also several English locations (Sheffield?), it was in the top few channels of the range which was in the 800MHz part of Band V. Ofcom published various documents about "clearing the 800MHz band" during the period of the digital changeover. 

A further clearing is pretty much complete. This involves clearing the 700MHz band for more mobile services. This has already taken place in some other territories. I note that our local TV transmitter is all on Ch46 and below Ch46 thus below 700 and ready for 2022.

700MHz mobile services should mean better slightly terrain adaption. Fingers crossed.

It won't run on my O2 phone but it is good to know that O2 are collecting that data. They appear to have always run a relatively low power network. You cannot always get a radio signal through just by throwing more power at the problem so hopefully somebody at O2 is applying more intelligent solutions than evidenced by the Ofcom document I once saw for an Orange mast that permitted 1000W not far from an O2 mast using 32W!

That's a phenomenal amount of radio power - 30-odd watts will get you mobile signal at 12 miles from the transmitter.

In terms of frequencies, lower is better in terms of going through walls/trees and longer distances. It looks like network operators are re-jigging their networks to offer 2 and 4G only of the 'legacy' technologies - 2G to deal with old devices (mainly 'machine to machine' comms devices like tracking devices and substation comms), and 4G to give a decent data service. Obviously 5G is coming in, but handset support is relatively patchy.  Voice over LTE (voice using 4/5G data) is also being rolled out too.

To put that in perspective, typical main TV masts are putting out 20,000 Watts on UHF.

That Orange mast was in a mountainous area and I expect they hoped that just throwing more power at it would compensate for their higher 2G frequency of 1800MHz. Usually it just means it bounces of a hillside into the sky or gets suck away by a forest. 

Well, had a little play with Mastdata. Think OpenSocial is going to be uninstalled. I prefer the usage maps and really like the way you can view your own reception.

Thanks