UKC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7593039/Disabled-caravanner-gi...

I know this has been done before but I read this and thought how thin the line is between something being legal or otherwise.

I, like many other walkers, climbers etc carry a Swiss Army Knife as part of my kit and I can't really see anything offensive in what this chap has done; so what constitutes a good reason for carrying one? I really thing the world is going mad.

In reply to mypyrex:
This really is daft, I always carry my knife about with me, I dont see why I shouldn't. I guessing many peoples are only small blades and aren't locking ones so whats the issue.

In reply to Hannah S: Exactly. I'm sure this chap had criminal intentions. Have the police really nothing better to do?

In reply to mypyrex:

This is just plain wrong. Why are pocket knives or multi-tools being classed as offensive weapons.

Taking the argument further, everyone probably has a wheelbrace of some description in their car, long enough, hard enough and heavy enough to inflict a lethal blow. In some countries carrying such an item is required by law. So should everyone who drives in the UK be charged with having an offensive weapon.

How do the general public go about changing a ridiculous law such as this, any legal eagles out there?

In reply to mypyrex: How ridiculous! I often have a pocket knife on me wherever I go- I had it in my jacket pocket by mistake when I gave evidence at court a few years ago- it was left at security and given back to me afterward with no problems. The CPS and the officer concerned need a good dose of reality.
Like the guy was a danger! Pfft!

In reply to Route Adjuster: We have martial arts for that reason- banning people from carrying or possessing weapons, or even training to fight, meant that dances with farm implements were engineered to give the Japanese the ability to fight during Chinese occupation.
Take away weapons and people pick up rocks or use their fists.

In reply to mypyrex:

Bloody hell, maybe time to empty my car out! That really is particularly stupid, I think I've probably got a Swiss Champ and a gerber multitool in the back of the car at the moment does that make me a danger to society.*

*The folding tree saw, entrenching tool and the steel pipe I use for adding a bit more leverage to the wheel brace are probably more of a risk

In reply to mypyrex:

Madness. Don't the police understand the difference between a "tool" and a "weapon"?

I'm stuffed if I ever get stopped and searched, as I keep my Gerber rescue knife in the door bin of the car. If I ever end up in a situation where I need to cut the seatbelt to get out in a hurry, then I want a good, sharp knife within easy reach!

Wherever I am outdoors, my rucksack will always have a Leatherman Wave in it, for a start, possibly a Crater, too, as my new, preferred climbing knife.

I will be spending all of Saturday working at a regatta in a public place with about 200 kids present, not to mention all the public spectators. As part of the organising/safety team, I will be carrying either that knife or my diving knife around with me in the pocket of my BA, as will most other people on the team. Are the police going to come and give us all criminal records?

In reply to All: A few weeks ago I went fow a walk up Arenig Fawr. About half way up a chap caught up with me and asked if I'd lost a Swiss Army Penknife. After a quick "self pat-down" of my pockets I said that I had lost mine. Obviously it fell out of my pocket when I sat down earlier.

No, in the light of this case, I've been thinking that the chap might have been an off-duty copper in which case I'd probably be banged up by now

What is the world coming to?

In reply to Tree:
A few years ago (I think I was 15) I wandered into a nightclub in Colchester for a few drinks, I'd forgotten that I'd got a mini leatherman type knife on my keyring. After getting a full pat down from the bouncer he looked at the knife, tested the blade on his finger and waved over his supervisor to ask if he could let me in. The door managers comment was "It's less than 3 inches let him in", I was a a bit worried about the place after that!

In reply to All: Wonder when we'll start getting done for carrying ice axes and crampons

In reply to mypyrex:
"He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it."

Is cutting up fruit not a 'good reason' for having a knife?

Perhaps he admitted to possession and accepted an conditional discharge, rather than sit in a cell for hours waiting for a solicitor to present his case.

Future cases like this will simply create work for the duty solicitors and the CPS. A complaint against the officer will probably be filed as part of the procedure, leading to more of the paperwork that the police are so against.

In reply to mypyrex:

I wonder why they searched his car?

Sounds like the polis were fishing. Why didn't they just breathalise him and send him on his way?

In reply to mypyrex:
It was only about 2 weeks ago that I got round to taking the Ice axes out of my car as I'd forgotten they were in the spare tyre well in the boot. I'd have had difficulty justifying them in Hertfordshire if I'd been stopped and searched!

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Wonder how many of us have walked through a town or village in winter or in the Alps with our axe on the back of our sacs and thought nothing of it?

In reply to dread-i:


That's what I thought. In similar circumstances(and being of a similar age) I would happily question the officer's action and sod the consequences. Since, in theory, I already have a record(speeding, careless driving) I've little to loose

In reply to mypyrex: It says it is a "Swiss Army" knife, but I don't see any more of a description, such as blade length or if it is locking. I always understood non-locking blades under 3" in length were permissible, so maybe his didn't come under this category.

Mind you, I've got a Victorinox Huntman in my pocket and always have one in my rucksack. Plus I often manage to go home from work with a locking craft knife in my pocket that I've been using for opening boxes etc.. The blade on that is locking, and exactly 3" long.

In reply to owlart:
Any knife can earn you a list of awkward questions from the police, as far as I know >3 1/2" locking blades are an instant trip to the local nick.

In reply to dread-i:

"Is cutting up fruit not a 'good reason' for having a knife?"
I was thinking the same, how else are you supposed to cut up food.

I normally have a swiss army knife in the top pocket of mu rucksack when i go out walking/climbing and then quite often have a pint in a pub on the way home, am i risking arrest?

The fools who arrest and prosecute these cases we keep hearing of should be thrown off the force as they obviously have no idea of what is appropriate and necessary, and i'd hate to see what they would do if they were put in a situation requiring a real response.

In reply to mypyrex:
The "He admits possession of it " might be the main factor. If he had argued the case, by saying that he had a reasonable excuse for possessing it, then it may well have ended happily.

In reply to mypyrex:

So:-

<Prosecutor Philip Sewell said:"He told officers that he had the knife for caravanning. He is not working and had no malicious reason for carrying the blade."

Mr Jolyon Tuck, defending, said he uses the knife to cut up fruit on picnics with his wife.

He said:"He accepts it is in his car and the law is very clear. He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it." >

What exactly does the law say. Does it specify what are good reasons for possesion of a knfe?

The chap in question should appeal - Personally, I think the magistrate or judge in this case should be sent back for training until they can demonstrate sufficient grounding in common sense.

If the law is really written that badly, then people need to hassle their MPs as they are the law makers.

Just one thing puzzles ne, what were plod doing in the chap's glocve box. He'd been breathalysed, last time I looked this didn't involve a search of the glovebox.

Perhaps there is more to this story that hasnt been reported.

In reply to pamplemouse:
As far as I'm aware the police can search your vehicle if they have reasonable grounds to believe you have done something naughty. In this case he was stopped on suspicion of being drunk, he passed the breathaliser test so the next question is what is affecting his driving; weed? So you search the car.

Most old people are permenantly stoned these days

In reply to dread-i: But "admitting possession" may be as simple as the officer saying "Is this your knife?" and he replies "Yes". He might not be admitting to possession of a dangerous knife, just a knife.

In reply to pamplemouse:
>Perhaps there is more to this story that hasnt been reported.

Perhaps the copper just dislikes caravanners. In which case he deserves to be applauded rather than demonised.

This is crazy. I have a Leatherman in my glove box. It's there for more than just the knife side of things. I used to carry a small penknife in my rucksack but given previous news reports, and the slightly issue if you forget it's in there and go to anywhere with security, so I switched to having it in my car, that way I just have to get it out.

What made the police look in the glove box? I've been stopped by the police 3 times in my life, the first was late on Christmas eve just past the pub. They stopped everyone, I wasn't breathalized (and hadn't been drinking). The second times was speeding, and the third was a bulb gone.

None of those times did they check the glove box or boot? Presumably they were after something?

If it was for caravanning I'm sure he had worse in the caravan's kitchen - fixed bladed and longer.. like we all do in our kitchens at home.

What Constitutes a good reason for carrying a knife? does it have to be a trade or is a hobby acceptable?

Additionally in a closed compartment in your car is not on your person - How else are you meant to transport knives, either having just bought them or taking them to a location where you will need them as a tool/utensil.

Distinguishing between a tool and a weapon is something that requires a bit more common sense from the police. If it was too big or locking the police could simply have advised him on what would be legal to carry.


On the topic of knives, am I the only ones who finds the idea of "knife amnesties", where you can hand in knives to the police without penalty, utterly farcical?
Those with any criminal intent will ignore them, while normal law abiding citizens are hardly going to empty their kitchens, garages and toolsheds.
If someone hands one in, they simply have to go back home for a veritable arsenal..

In reply to dread-i:

Certainly looks like it.
When you read the law on this and the CPS advice (below) it looks like most climbers wouldn't have a problem so long as the knife is with our rack etc.

I've left knives in pockets after trips before but on the advice of my brother who's a police officer (bearing in mind that I live not far from parts of London where kids are stabbed every day), I now make very sure that my pockets are empty and that a knife in the car is part of my first aid kit in the boot.

Bottom line: Knife crime is a real issue, particularly in some areas. Have a decent reason for having one with a blade of less than 3 inches on you and you should be ok under the law; just make sure you can prove that you've got a good reason.

http://tinyurl.com/y5k93dc

The defendant is entitled to be acquitted if he shows on the balance of probabilities that he had "lawful authority or reasonable excuse" for having the weapon ((Archbold 24-121-122). Where details of a defence are given in interview or in a defence statement, the CPS should consider whether evidence is available to rebut the defence and should liaise with the police if additional enquiries or evidence are necessary.

Also:
16. Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 prohibits the possession in a public place of any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed, (including a folding pocket knife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 7.62cm/3 inches) (Archbold, 24 -125)

And finally:

In relation to an adult offender of previous good character, the custody threshold will almost invariably be passed where he is convicted of having an offensive weapon and there is a combination of dangerous circumstances and actual use of the weapon to threaten or cause fear: (Archbold 24-109)

A sentence at or near the statutory maximum of 4 years is appropriate where the offender:

has previous convictions for violence or carrying weapons; is convicted of carrying a particularly dangerous weapon; has a clear intention to cause fear or injury; and in circumstances involving any of the aggravating factors set out below: (Archbold 24-109) Aggravating factors are:

specifically planned use of the weapon to commit violence or threaten violence or intimidate others; hostility towards a minority group or individual or group, which may give rise to an aggravating feature, such as racial motivation within the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, sec 28; and acting under the influence of alcohol or drugs. A community sentence toward the top end of the range may be appropriate where there are no aggravating features, no threat has been made and the weapon is not particularly dangerous.

In reply to mypyrex:

I'm guessing it's hard for the police to just try to judge someone and say 'you have no criminal intention' and 'you might have a criminal intention', and doing so might leave them open to calls of discrimination.

However having a knife in the car can't be that uncommon? I have at least 5 in my van... although I assume the 3 in my box of cooking stuff and the 1 in my paddling kit have an excuse, maybe it's just the swiss army knife in a rucksack (the smallest and only one which isn't a fixed blade) I should be worried about.

If he was in his caravan he'd probably have had a selection of knives in the kitchen, so what's the distinction between that and a small one in the glove box?

In reply to mypyrex:
years back when i lived in cardiff I was stopped all the time because i was young and drove a lot around pub closing times (because i worked in a pub) and hence every copper in cardiff assumed i must be drunk; they never searched my car after a standard stop/breath test.
They did once search my car when i was sat in the car with a few friends waiting for another person to finish work so we could go out. They didn't give any reason why they did this only that if we want we could get a full report of the search if we went to the police station within the next 7 days. It sometimes seems that they don't need any reason to justify their actions because they are above the law. I considered going to get the report from the station just to make myself a pain in the arse.

In reply to mypyrex: I'm in trouble then if they ever stop me and decide to search me as I always have a swiss army knife in my trouser pocket unless I'm planning on going through airport security or out for a heavy drinking session. I think I'd be lost without it with how useful it is on a day to day basis.

In reply to hindu: That still leaves the question as to what qualifies as "good reason" or "reasonable excuse" for carrying a knife.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I've been stopped a few times for various reasons, but only ever been searched once.

Happened when I lived near Broadmoor and someone escaped - still no idea how they thought a grown man was going to hide in the boot of a Fiesta!

In reply to owlart:

It's whatever you say that it is - within the guideline for conviction is the test for conviction:


"any article made or adapted for use to causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it with him for such use"

The emphasis is on the second part - intent.

You're innocent until proven otherwise so if you give your reason and the prosecution can convince the magestrate/jury otherwise then you're stuffed.

As climbers/hill types, if you're on your way to of from the crag or a trip and you can prove it (gear in car/blisters on feets etc) then we've nothing to worry about.

If you've a big knife in the car you keep there 'just on case' you need it, then sorry, you're nicked and guilty. The law (the government's, not the police's) simply does not allow big knifes to be carried.

I don't see the problem here I have to say. On the suface, this specific story doesn't look right when you actually look at the law and the CPS guidance; there has to be more to it than what's written on the side of the outrage bus.

In reply to hindu:

This is madness, in law there is no power to search the drivers car when stopped for drink driving.

I have walked through Heathrow with a large Kukri (Ghurka's Knife) strapped to the outside of my rucksack on route to South America for a jungle expedition. Yes I was spoken to by armed officers, who after a few minutes questioning me wished me a pleasant trip.

The cop who dealt with this needs to be re-trained.

In reply to mypyrex:

Arrghh, that means I am a criminal as I have one in the same place. It has pliers and tin opener on it and screwdriver, well equipped for murder, burglary, stealing tinned fruit from the supermarket, pulling policemans finger nails out.

Also got a disposable camera in there for road accidents/ taking lewd pictures etc.

Multiblade screwdriver, good for stealing the screws out of peoples glasses.

I am sure I could find an offence for possessing waste paper, drinks bottles could be used to make bombs.

Better remove them all before I get 20 years.

Could the magistrate not be dismissed as a congenital idiot?

The real reason he got charged and convicted was because the magistrate hates caravans.

In reply to sutty:

Wondered why my specs kept falling apart

In reply to mypyrex: Slightly more serious, but in a similar justice type vein:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8629395.stm

In reply to JLC8458:

I think "re-trained" would be a good thing. Sacked would be nice too. But none of that takes away from this guy now having a criminal record. This means paying vastly higher insurance for everything. It means a lot of "routine" stuff like renewing a passport gets really, really complicated. If it was me I'd lose my job as well.

This copper is lowlife. As scum as the people I guess he thinks he in on the earth to arrest.

The trouble is coppers deal all the time with people with criminal records, they think its nothing. Having a criminal record is a REALLY BIG DEAL in many many ways to normal folk and may well have serious repercussions to life. e.g. if I lost my job I'd likely lose my home too. Oh, and who is going to employ someone with a criminal record?

My opinion of the police sinks even lower. And frankly I didn't think it could. Utter, utter, scum.

Now waiting for the usual apologists on here to turn up and state that the elderly caravanner was a threat to society and prosecuting was a really good idea.

Or, better, a load of police officers to speak out and say this was a really bad idea to prosecute this person and I shouldn't tar all police officers with the same brush? (sorry, did I hear laughing at the back...)

As a matter of interest, what happens when I'm on my way back from BNQ with an axe, a bowsaw and a sledgehammer (unwanted trees removing implements).

In reply to John_Hat:


Of course he wasn't but there does seem to be something more that is missing. This man would seems to have a clear defence according to the law under points 2,3 and 4 below. There must be something not fully reported. I hope.

"The CJA 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, section 139 being the most important:

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place. "

In reply to mypyrex:

I'd be stuffed if I got stopped. Due to my own laziness (can never be ased to clean the car out!) I've got a fishing box in the boot which has a knife, club thing for beating fishy brains out and numerous nasty hooks. There are also three ice axes and two pairs of crampons in the boot.

:oS

In reply to mypyrex:

Far too much to read here but could somebody please expalin this bit for me?

He said:"He accepts it is in his car and the law is very clear. He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it."

I'm confused about the law and how clear it is. I have a Swiss army knife in my first aid kit, does this mean that this is illegal?

In reply to mypyrex: The Guy's a caravanner for god's sake. He deserves all he gets.

In reply to graeme jackson:

I think sympathy and re-training would be more appropriate...

Though (and I appreciate here I am on dodgy ground) I've never quite understood the antipathy against caravans.. they are only a slightly more rigid tent, no?

(waits to be shot down in flames...)

In reply to John_Hat:

Have you ever been stuck in a huge tailback caused by some stubborn prick towing a tent who refuses to pull over and let people pass?

In reply to Tree:

Interesting that the entire prosecution case rested on the testimony of a 14 year old scroat.

In reply to MG:

Exactly. I can only assume it was something like a Huntsman, which has a locking blade, or the blade exceeded 3 inches. If that was the case you couldn't use the 'chopping fruit' defence, because you can chop fruit just as easily with a smaller folding knife.
That said, if you were chef on your way to a job that would be just hunky dory.

In reply to mypyrex:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/8629395.stm

Looks like common sense is prevailing in some areas of the legal system at least.

1 fewer scumbag on the streets thankfully - He deserves a medal.

bugger, talk about ignorance not being a crime. I always have a spartan (?) swiss army knife in my car and had not taken this

http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=product.detail&productID=3745

out of my car since climbing in france last week. Its usually attached to the back of my harness but it was a bouldering hol so took for making my sandwiches... so I'm breaking the law right? But it is a folding knife with a blade less than 3 inches?? I'm confused

In reply to Ridge:
He said he used it for 'caravanning' - perhaps he wasn't towing his caravan, and thus his reason wasn't accepted as a 'good reason'.

I'm not defending this position, he shouldn't have been prosecuted IMHO. It just seems to explain the situation.

In reply to Reach>Talent:


cant have been L'aristos then. in there they would have lent you something larger to have a sporting chance.

In reply to mypyrex:

This doesn't make sense at all.
Admitted not to have a good reason to have it, i would have thought for a penknife in your car "its handy" would be good enough reason, carying it around if one of the bigger ones might not be such a good one.

It smells a bit that the police was annoyed that he was under the limit and just had to find somthing to charge him with.

But just so you dont think its just in the UK this happens, in Denmark they have gone crazy hunting people with knifes aswell.
A guy who put down carpets for a living, left a craft knife, one of those with a long blade where you break off the end when it gets dull, in his car. Was stopped as a routing traffic check. got charged with having an illegal knife with him as the blade was over the minimum.
Due to a recent change in the law that should automaticly give some months prison, after alot of media cover, he got away without going to prison but still got a big fine and the attached criminal record.
So just keep in mind its just not the UK as so often said on here

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
>

Does it lock open (in which case it's classed as a fixed blade and automatically illegal). I've got a Buck multitool that locks open, so that must be illegal, as would, I assume be a knife fork and spoon set, as the knife is a fixed blade.

TBH I still carry my buck knife now and again, and to be frank the miniscule chance of being stopped by the plod in the middle of nowhere doesn't worry me. I might start carrying an uzi, if I'm automatically a criminal I may as well pack something being worth arrested for.

In reply to mypyrex:

Thankfully I will not find it difficult to steer clear of Devon.

If we assume that the reporting is correct in its reference to a Swiss Army Knife (this is the Telegraph after all) then these coppers need treatment, as does the prosecutor and the magistrate.

In reply to John_Hat: Totally agree with your comments, a large majority of our boys in blue are lying scum who will say or do anything to get a conviction. We are slowly slipping into a Police state.

In reply to mypyrex:

I was told by an enlightened, ice axe wielding PC from the Met that my locking folding knife - blade 3.5 inches, cutting length 3 inches and a little bit - was fine for climbing as I had a legitimate reason for carrying it (cutting up saucisson sec and tat) but anywhere else it would be highly illegal.

To be fair, it is definitely an offensive weapon, originally bought as a working knife, and with a rugged, non-slip grip - not exactly Crocodile Dundee but heading off in that sort of direction

In reply to bobbybin:

Oh dear! Once again the great and the good of UKC know more about a case from a few lines in the media, than a court in full possession of the facts.

In reply to Mokkel:

"It smells a bit that the police was annoyed that he was under the limit and just had to find somthing to charge him with".

I thought that might be the case too... as you say, there is a whiff coming from it..

But really, FFS, a 61-year old with zero criminal history.

The thing that worries me is thus: We have a society where having a criminal record (of any kind bar non-disqualification driving offences) is a pretty high bar to getting a decent job.

The more people we crimialise for trivial "crimes" then the more people we push into a situation where they either work in a dead-end low paid job or.. turn to crime.

So the police action in a case like this, if perfomed on a younger specimen (accepting that the individual in this case is hardly going to be Mr Gang Boss), is simply pushing more people towards a life of crime.

The people that they push are not going to be the lower ends of society traditionally associated with crime but higher-IQ people who are driven to succeed, but find their path upwards on the straight path blocked by having a trivial criminal conviction. They are going to be better and more organised at crime than Mr Dumb who mugs folk for a living. They are going to be better at concealing crime. They are also going to be understanably resentful towards Her Majesty's Constabulary.

Given its then harder for Plod to convict, what does Plod do. He picks on another person and does them for loitering with intent or posession of a crisp packet or being cheeky. This person follows the same path as described above.

This reduces crime and the safety of society how, precisely? It actively makes the problem a lot worse.

The only thing I can see this strategy going for it is that if you criminalise everyone, then having a criminal record is no longer a stigma, so trivial criminals can then get jobs. Which unwinds the issue over time. But its going to get worse rather than better first.

In reply to Paul F: I've had direct dealings with our boys in blue and seen them blatantly lie in court and in written evidence so dont tell me what i do and dont know. How many miscarriages of justice have there been in the last 20 years alone?

In reply to MG:


Can someone clarify two points:

Is inside a vehicle a "public place".
Is inside a glove compartment inside a vehicle "with him"

In reply to mypyrex:

There really IS more to this case than meets the eye!

I do belive the accused was also found to be...

Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area.

In possession of an offensive wife.

And trod on the cracks in the pavement.


I rest my case M'lud.

In reply to dissonance:
Can't remember what it was called but it was in an old church.

In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet: like it!! ;p

In reply to bobbybin:

Apart from yours? Dunno.

In reply to mypyrex:

Thinking about it, I'm stuffed wherever I go, as all but one of the tools I regularly carry have a fixed or locking blade.

In reply to all:

If I was to take my selection of knives - SAK, Gerber and others to a police station (after checking that this would not be illegal and get them confiscated), would I get an accurate answer as to their legality in carrying on my person? And is possession of a locking knife actually illegal? Not entirely sure what a 'locking' blade refers to since one that wobbles about seems pretty useless.

In reply to episodit:
Locking - where a release must be operated before the knife can be closed as opposed to a blade like a standard swiss army knife which is just held out under spring tension and can be closed in one movement.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Ah, ta, so the Gerber would definitely be classed as locking then as it does have what you describe but I have another which requires another blade to be opened so as to release the current one, so it would seem this too would be locking.

In reply to episodit:

My topeak Allien bike tool got a locking blade, im just hoping that carrying it in my bag when cycling is good enough reason if i should ever be searched

In reply to mypyrex:

Yet another fine performance by the copper and the judge in their never ending effort to undermine the credibility of the police force and the legal system.
Muppets.

In reply to all:

A good source for info on Knives and the law in England and wales can be found on British Blades forums

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?8336-The-Law-FAQ

In reply to Postmanpat and John Hat:

Or the credibility on accurate media reporting.

The Police provide the evidence for a case, the CPS make the decision to charge or not :0)

In reply to Paul F:

And the copper couldn't have given " a quiet word of advice"?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Could have done a few things, ignored it, advised him, asked him to disclaim it and sent it for destruction. He was already arrested after failing a roadside breath test.

In reply to Paul F:

No, he didn't fail the breathalyser therefore was NOT arrested.

You can only assume the knife was either lock-blade, over 3" or both otherwise the conviction was incorrect. Pretty stupid prosecuting under the circumstances though.

I wonder, from what I have seen of this, whether the gentleman felt intimidated into admitting an offence which subsequently gave rise to the comment:

"He accepts it is in his car and the law is very clear. He admits possession of it and he had no good reason for having it."

If he had been 100% certain that the knife was within the permissible category and that he had a valid reason for possessing it(peeling/cutting fruit/food etc) then surely he should have(politely) told the copper to get lost.

In reply to mypyrex: i carry a puma 465 back packer for the last 40 years you can open and close it with one hand and its a lock knife. not the world but one or two people

In reply to John_Hat:

your obviously a potential serial killer and should be shot at dawn mate

In reply to mike swann:

He did fail a roadside breath test, and was arrested. He was subsequently placed on a more accurate machine at custody which showed he did not have enough alcohol in his system to pursue a conviction. (the legal limit is 35mg, but unless you are over 40mg it is unlikely you will be charged)

It is the CPS who decided to charge and prosecute this matter, but then again they had all the facts.

In reply to Paul F: You obviously have more information than in the original link.

In reply to Paul F:


So what facts did the policeman or CPS have that made the case worthy of prosecution?

In reply to mike swann:

That has pretty much been my point. How accurately can you comment on a story until you have all the facts?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Enough for the court to agree and find Mr Knowles guilty.

In reply to Paul F:

If the knife was within the parameters of being legal then the only POSSIBLE offence could have been having it without good reason. I would have thought that its use for cutting/peeling food was a good enough reason for having it. As I said before I suspect he may have felt intimidated.

ps Otherwise I think we're all on thin ice.

In reply to Paul F:
e
Doh! The debate is not primarily about whether he was technically guilty.It was about whether there was anything gained by prosecuting and giving him criminal record.

Do you have any information to suggest it was?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Once Mr Knowles was arrested, the Police, CPS and Courts have a duty to follow process. As a first time offender he could have accepted a caution by the Police, but would have to admit his guilt.
If a person continues to profess innocence it rightly has to be heard at court.
The court could have thrown it out, found him innocent, or the court could of found him guilty and given him an absolute discharge.
Was anything gained? Probably not, but it is the process of our legal system.

In reply to mypyrex: When I go camping I have half a dozen knives in my car, all with fixed blades and all far more than 3 inches in length...they're called cutlery!!

...and I often have a couple of diving knives of serious and dubious nature!

...and if I'm going to the Alps I'll have a couple of ice axes, Grivel Candela and at least 1 Swiss Army knife.

I must be planning a riot!

In reply to Paul F:

So, since you seem to be in possession of the full facts, what was the actual issue with the knife?

In reply to Paul F:

But he wasn't arrested over the knife. There is surely room for discretion at each stage. What you are implying seems that that every time a policeman sees what a "crime" it legally has to go through full due process. Is that right?

In reply to Ridge:


is he claiming he has full facts? My guess would be it is either over 3 and a half inches long and/or locking. Fair few swiss army knives fall into that category.
or they just nabbed him for a legal knife for a giggle.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I suspect it now depends how weedy and vulnerable the "criminal" looks.

In reply to Postmanpat:

He would have been further arrested for the knife at some point. At any time up to arrest the Policeman could have used his discretion in how to deal with the knife as I've outlined earlier.

However once arrested the process would go something like this;
Subject arrested and necessity of arrest explained, any comments made recorded under caution.
Taken to custody and the reason and necessity of arrest given to the custody Sgt.
The knife booked in to property and becomes an exhibit.
The Sgt (who has no part in the investigation) makes a decision whether or not to authorise the detention.
If the subject requires legal representation, the investigating officer gives the circumstances of the offence to the solicitor.
The solicitor then meets with the subject in private for legal advice.
Subject interviewed in a recorded interview.
Depending on the interview there are several options.
-Guilty plea
-Release no further action (not in public interest to pursue prosecution)
-Caution for first offence
-Charge and bail to court (for more serious offence)
Not guilty plea
-Release 47/3 bail for further investigation, to return to custody at a later date.
-compile case file for advice
-seek advise from evidence review officer (ERO)
If ERO agrees send file to CPS for advice
Depending on advice from CPS-
-Release no further action (not in public interest to pursue prosecution)
-Charge and bail to court
-Charge and remand to court (serious cases)
The investigating officer will then prepare the file for court.


Given the above, 'words of advice' would be a much simpler route to go down, but that would very much depend on the individual at the time of the incident.

In reply to Paul F:



In other words it's been a complete waste of time and effort

In reply to Paul F:


Right,so as I was saying, at numerous points in the whole escapade "due process" could have allowed for the matter to be dropped. Unless there is some other information that we are missing like,for example, that the guy had a record as long as your arm for mugging people at knifepoint with his penknife, it seems reasonable to conclude that the prosecution was an utter waste of our taxes and undermines the credibility of the police and the legal system.

In reply to Ridge:

The other case (the comic bloke) would suggest that "overconfidence" is a key sign of criminality.

In reply to Postmanpat mypyrex:


Mr Knowles had no previous convictions.

The matter could have been dealt with in many ways, but would be dependant on Mr Knowles attitude and disposition at the time. Matters can only be dealt with reasonably if persons are at the time being reasonable.

It may seem like a waste of taxes, but he was ordered to pay £40 towards costs

In reply to Postmanpat:

Not only was it a waste of time, no previous convictions, he could now be sent to prison for peeling an apple or orange with a pen knife as he would have breached the conditional discharge.

He must appeal it. to not do so and that happen would cost not only the cost of him being in prison but the cost of his wife being cared for. Cost then for six months inside to government, around £20,000.

In reply to Paul F:
>
Given that Mr.Knowles (or "Mad dog Knowlesy" as he is known by the criminal fraternity) had openly acknowledged that he had the penknife together with his torch and elastoplast in the glove compartment I am wondering why you imply that you think he might have been unreasonable?

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Just before I went up to Scotland in January I borrowed a pair of climbing axes off a friend. I had to drive back home (about 30 mins drive, at 10pm). I got pulled by police, apparently I'd turned my fog lights on where I indicated and left them on. I find that highly strange because the fog lights are in the middle next to the radio and the indicators are on sticks (meh, whatever). Anyway. I had a pair of climbing axes and a walking axe in the passenger footwell of the car. The policeman gave me the oddest look in the world, but sent me on my way.

In reply to Katie86:
i keep a sharp pencil in the glovebox.... suppose that could be an effective weapon in the right hands.