UKC

Suicide is always a selfish action, driven by ego.

If it is the case, as is currently being touted, that the First Great Western train hit a car whose driver was intent on suicide, what a thoroughly shitty thing to do. That person should've been made to live

In reply to Greenbanks:

Suicide's bad M'kay!

Luv Barra! xx

In reply to Greenbanks: if he wanted to kill himself he should have shot himself. instead of selfishly parking his car in front of train and having 7 other people killed. selfish barstard.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I'm not so sure we know this yet. Despite earlier reports that the off-duty PC spoke to the guy, this was specifically denied this morning. Let's not jump to conclusions.

In reply to Bruce Allmighty:

Ah, the wonderful press. The chief constable of the BT police denied all claims that the off-duty officer had any conversation with the driver, so we don't really know.

But if it is true, you're right. Why park your car on a level crossing when you could just put your head on the line.

In reply to Greenbanks:
Ok, I firstly wrote a reasoned reply,
but hey it boils down to:-

Suicide = selfish action, yep though I bet the person concerned doesn't always see it that way?

driven by ego , are you being serious, how the hell did you decide that? its people who HATE themselves that try to kill themselves, not ones that LOVE themselves.

BKB...

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

I was a bit worried that the car might have stalled and that the person couldn't get it started again... Apparently the train appeared only seconds after the car stopped there.

I used to have a car that would stall at random like this, so that's what made me think of it.

In reply to Bob kate bob:
Totally agree, driven by ego??

You what??

In reply to Bob kate bob:


Exactly. Suicide is the last cry of a very desperate person.

In reply to Bob kate bob:

Suicide has got to do with ego. One of the major reasons to do it is to have a major impact on the people around you. Its not directly an egotistical thing done to increase your ego, but having a high sense of yourself, which others don't share is pretty much linked to depression and other disorders. Check the link on the mentalist thread and have a read through the questions, answer them as if you think your brilliant but everyone ignores you and see what results you get. If someone thinks there brilliant at everything they do and don't get anywhere in life they could easily become bitter with the world around them and want to do simething to harm the world that 'treated them so unfairly'. It is blatantly selfish, which is another thing that comes with the attitude that your more important than the people around you, even the strangers in the train crash. But the attitude to others around you is something thats imparted on you socially rather than a basic human trait, take the actions of people dealing in slaves in the past, the yogoslav war and the isreael/palestinian crisis to see that its possible for people to not care about major groups of people around them. Maybe in this case, the person just wanted to go down having made a big impact on the world around him so he'd be remembered in a very misguided way.
Then again, it would be good to know it was an accident since it can't be changed that people died.
P

In reply to Bob kate bob:

I don't wholly agree - ego is surely about all-consuming pre-occupation with self (whether loving or hating). Besides, its a fine line.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I did use the term ' it is being touted', in order to accomodate the way that the Press works

In reply to Clare:


Well, if it happens on a level crossing, put in first and keep the starter turning over until it gets you out of the way!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

oh, that sort of thing wouldn't work on the car I had - bump starts or leave it for an hour or so. Just rubbish. I just mentioned it as a possible reason for the car being there, that didn't involve 'intentional' suicide...

In reply to Clare:

No, the point isn't to get the engine started, the idea is to use the starter motor to wind the car forwards. Doesn't do it a lot of good, but better than the alternative!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

oh. in this case it wouldn't have worked - an ignition problem - but anyway, back to the thread...

In reply to Dave Garnett: I once did this wit h a cherry picker that was on hire as we needed to get it off the road-it took ages, plus the battery can go flat quickly if its not in good contidion. If a train appears out of nowhere shortly after you have stalled then there is no guarentee you will get off the track in time. He would have been quicker pushing the thing.

In reply to Bob kate bob:

Suicide has everything to do with ego. If you think otherwise you are guilty of a gross misunderstanding of the concept of ego.


Precisely.

In reply to pete theobald: surely suicide is done for a whole range of reasons, including the one you have suggested? "getting back at the world" perhaps, but also because the world has become unbearable, or they feel they are in a hopeless situation, or even for rational reasons (as in someone with a debilitating and progressive illness who decides to end their life at a time and manner of their own choosing). Problem with accusations of selfishness is that the person doing it is often not in a state of mind to think rationally.

In reply to Vertically_Challenged:

I remember George Bush accusing Palestinian suicide bombers of being "selfish". Immoral and misguided, but surely to make the ultimate sacrifice for a cause you believe in is anything but selfish.

In reply to Vertically_Challenged:

<Problem with accusations of selfishness is that the person doing it is often not in a state of mind to think rationally>

Fine as an explanation of the actions of the person who decides 'I can't cope'. But the thread is about the poor sods who get taken down with him/her (in other words, why not as some posters have said, go into a quiet space and top yourself there?)

In reply to Greenbanks:

Would you consider someone committing suicide in this fashion not to be selfish then?

In reply to pete theobald:

Sorry. I dont think you know what youre talking about. People who genuinely commit suicide are incapable of thinking about those around them. The thought of ending the pain theyre in is the only thing that concerns them, everything else is besides the point at the time. Yes, some do feel they may be getting back at the world, anxiety and aggression being a common part of depression. Theyre not selfish, they have an illness that affects the way they behave. So no, not an ego trip as you seem to think.

Stop for a minute and think what kind of horrible, terrible and unbearable state a person must be in to want to kill themselves, and never wish it on your worst enemy. I doubt you can even come close to knowing.

No, I dont have much sympathy with someone who takes out other people along with themselves, its very sad and misguided indded, even if they had been depressed. But as Clare said, could have been an accident. Lots hope eh?

In reply to pete theobald:

selfish eh? Interesting. I've got friends that have committed suicide. I don't think they were selfish. I suffered from depression at one point and considered it. Am I selfish.


No. You have no idea what you are on about.

In reply to climbing haggis and anni:

I don't think anyone's right or wrong about this, just that Pete's just coming at it from a different perspective to Anni and yourself.

How do you know he doesn't know what he's talking about? He might have been there/had friends who've been there. I have, in terms of farting around attempting it. In retrospect, in my case, it was selfish, and childish, and a bit pathetic (and, perversely, rather amusing...) In the case of someone else it might not be.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Emile Durkheim distinguished several types of suicide including atruistic suicide. I always find that the words 'always' and 'never' are in sentences that involve sweeping generalisations.

In reply to Clare:

Been there. Lost a friend to it. I was lucky. Scares the sh*t out of me the thought of ever going back there, where you cant see anything else but the way out. Yes I also feel childish and stupid, but thats how Im made to feel by how I percieve what others would think about what I did. But at the time, nothing else mattered. So speaking from experience. The only way you could think someone was selfish over it is when youre still angry at them for doing it. Been there too.

I was just as bad, I used to think people who comitted suicide were stupid and selfish. Then when it ceeps up on you you realise otherwise.

In reply to Anni:

yeah, mine was years ago... I reckon to each his own, and sometimes it is selfish, sometimes not.

better move, this fence is digging into my arse summat rotten.

In reply to Clare:

Lol, yes. Its getting too serious, sorry. Let me help you down and we can go get ice cream and a comfy cushoin for you to sit on

In reply to Ken McCulloch:

<the words 'always' and 'never' are in sentences that involve sweeping generalisations>

One of the best ways to begin a discussion is to state a point of view. Without an initial marker threads like this are pointless.

Besides, I don't give a toss what names are drawn out of the cultural-capitalist's hat to theorise 'suicide'. The point I make is that suicides that involve other people in physical harm/death are an abomination.

A lot of people on here are talking as though we should extend condolences in equal amount to the suicide 'victim' as much as the unknowing others caught up in it.

If indeed it was a suicide, try telling that to the family of the mother and her 9 year old daughter who died.

In reply to Anni: Anni, its not lol, its completely scarey, I've been there, and I couldnt guarantee that I wont be there again one day, I fight it every day.

In reply to Al Evans: Have you still got the lodgers?

In reply to climbing haggis:

Spot on. Suicide is *very* difficult to understand if you are not suicidal, but try to imagine for one second what it must take to reduce one to take their own life? All those of you who are so quick to condemn others should bare in mind that it is often judgement and fear of being judged that isolates people.
It is tragic that so many died, bu then it usually is. Don't blame the person on the track, blame the society and attitudes that put him in such a position that suicide became a choice.
I too have lost people to suicide. We need more humaity and less judgments.
Pete

In reply to Greenbanks:
i have recently become very terrified of an upcoming medical test and am genuinely doubting my ability to go on if the result is not in my favour. i am torn between going for the test / result in the hope that a good result will end my suffering and mean i can carry on with my life, or just turning my back and just not turning up for it and getting on with life in the hope that i am ok anyway. with reference to the train crash scenario i have found myself thinking a lot about the issue of suicide and i feel the main deterrent is because it would compound the family's misery.i would certainly not judge anyone who takes their own life, we can only be sad at the fact that this person, if it was suicide, chose to do it in this way. but i do feel pity for him/her.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I think anyone who wants to actually kill themselves and goes ahead with it successfully is beyond feeling any selfishness. I have know of a few people, either personally or professionally, who have done this and there is usually a big surprise/shock that they went through with it yet in the end, as people have come through the bereavement and are able to think about it, they realise that the rational way they have been able to deal with this was not possible for the person who died, since they were seriously depressed or mentally ill.

I think there is some kind of ego-esque action when someone commits a parasuicide act or deliberate self harm, since these are generally aimed at other people to make them feel guilty for the way they have been treating the said victim.

However, so little research can be done on suicide, for obvious reasons, that it is always going to be mystifying to those of us who will never go through it.

As regards the train crash, if indeed it actually was casued by a suicide act, then it is very unfortunate but I am sure that this person, if able to think rationally like everyone else who is quick to condemn, would have thought very differently. Had a member of my family or close friend been one of those on the train killed I am sure I would have been annoyed, but thats life, its a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Either way with the train disaster, it was an accident that was gravely unfortunate.

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

agrred. There is a big difference between attempting suicide with the intention that someone will stop you and going off on your own away from other people and taking your own life. Someone standing on a bridge wanting to jump off and being talked out of it by the police is probably in a very different frame of mind and has different intentions to someone who goes somewhere very quiet on their own and takes an overdose/hangs themselves/shoots themselves. The thing with depression (other types of mental illness don't really make you suicidal but do cause depression) is that it stops you thinking rationally about whats going on, and basically stops you figuring out how to make things better yourself.
P

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

Quite often, the intention is not so much either to kill onesself or gain attention as to break a self-perceived deadlock. To give up on life, whether that be through forcing a measure of community responsibility for your decisions (through, say, sectioning) or just to end it so you don't have to keep making seemingly impossibly negative choices.

James

In reply to pete theobald:

Other kinds of mental illness may well make one feel suicidal, which may or may not be through depression. People committing substance abuse, for example, can feel suicidal when they are high on a certain drug (most commonly alcohol), yet normally would be quite against the idea and show no symptoms of depression. Certain personality disorders, although strictly speaking not a mental illness as according to ICD-10 or DSM-1V guidelines, can make people suicidal. Also, many Schizophrenic patients can be suicidal, but this is often through depression as a result of their illness.

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

my point entirely. Mental illness generally doesn't make you feel suicidal but they often lead to depression. Schizophrenics not being able to interpret other peoples reactions properly have a very hard time and obviously leads to depression. Isn't alcohol a depressant? I wouldn't say it makes me noticeably depressed but I do quieten down alot when I drink, whilst others stop caring about the world around them hence fighting, one night stands and other loss of inhibitions
P

In reply to pete theobald:

Alcohol may well be a depressant, but if someone only gets depressed when they drink they cannot be diagnosed with depression, since if they don't drink they don't get depressed. If they are dependent on alcohol for one reason or another, then they are substance abusers/alcoholics, not depressives per se.

However, you seem to be in general agreement with what I am saying, so little does it really matter!

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

thats interesting. If an alcoholic is suicidal is it down to depression? I'd never thought of that one. And what about heroin addicts who might feel bad on a come down but isn't directly caused by the effects of the drug but rather the effects of not having it any more (I suppose that is an effect really)
P

In reply to pete theobald:

More a case of a withdrawal effect and therefore substance abuse rather than depression.

In reply to pete theobald: Mental illness certainly can lead to suicidal desires. Schizophrenics often see no point in going on living, and just want to die in order to end their misery. Schizophrenia often goes hand in hand with bouts of very severe depression, during which the desire to die can be overwhelming.

In reply to BrianT:

thats what we said. The schizophrenia doesn't cause the suicidal thoughts, but it does lead to depression which then does. The suicidal bit isn't caused by the schizophrenia, but indirectly causes depression. Depression can exist on its own though for some unfortunate people who have lifelong depression. Not something to wish on anyone.
P

In reply to BrianT:

A lot of people make up the fact that they have depression since it is such an easy illness to feign. Not sure about genuine sufferers using it as a shield.

In reply to Dirty Gecko: Yes. A lot of people use the term 'depression' when they're feeling a bit down. If they knew what depression actually was and the effect it has on people it wouldn't be so widely mis-used. 'Depression' is too general a term to define such an affliction.

In reply to Mart Ford:

i'm definitely using the term depression in the context of chronic mental illness. I think feeling down in the dumps is still depression though just a very mild form of it. Some people are predisposed to being constantly (and genuinely happy), some are likely to get down in the dumps and some have really sever lows they can't get out of on their own. All different levels of depression from none to total.
P

In reply to pete theobald:

Theres been loads of depression threads on ukc and uk.rec.climbing over the years and the view seems to be that climbing has a far higher incidence of mental illness than the general population and also seems to have more extreme levels of mental illness than the general population
P

In reply to pete theobald:

Everyone has extremes of mood, its part of life to have mood variations. Depression is a diagnosis when this extends beyond what can be described as normal sadness or grief, which generally is subjective. Normal would be defined as being within the statistical normal distribution. i.e equivalent to 95% of the population as a rough guide.

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

that sounds like how to decide when its worth treating it. But its not really a useful discussion so i'll agree with you as i'm just being pedantic really.

In reply to pete theobald: Yeah that's what I mean about it being too general a term. I suppose one form is as valid as another though. That's an interesting point you've raised there. I'm pretty new to this site and hadn't come across a discussion on depression before but my mate and I were discussing this very thing in the pub the other weekend. Of all the climbers/ mountaineers he and I've come across over the years definately a more than normal amount have had a screw loose (pardon the term), and I don't mean a bit zany either.

Our other non-climbing friends think we are a bit tapped (again pardon the term), but that could just be because of the sport itself being dangerous and some of our more 'interesting' photographs. We both agreed though that a lot of people we had met climbing had been through awful experiences earlier in their lives and appear to have taken to climbing or rock-climbing to be precise because some of their will to live had waned or because they had 'lost something' that made them value their lives as much.

I think another reason for it, if what you say is true about the levels of mental illness being greater in the climbing fraternity, is that climbing, walking, the mountain environment etc. all offer a solace and tranquility whatever you are doing there and so if you are of unstable or troubled mind and try the sport or other activities in the hills for the first time you find it gives you a peaceful place where your mind can do it's 'filing' and put itself back in order, and you feel better when you're back on flat ground again.

Just an observation...

In reply to Mart Ford:
I started climbing when I went to uni because i'd always wanted to, but started to take it seriously after my cousin died and I started to get very depressed. I basically looked for dangerous routes to lead because I didn't think I had anything to lose. I didn't actually go out to kill myself climbing, but I wanted a challenge I guess that was more stimulating than day to day life, and it was. I've only just got back to being able to climb the routes I used to climb then because my abilities have improved, and I can safely climb routes I used to throw myself at. I think alot has to do with being able to rely either on just your own abilities to pull thorugh, no reliance on anyone else when your soloing which I still love doing, but also climbing with just one person who you trust and rely on their trust, and also know they rely on your trust. It is a very good way to get to know yourself and how you react to extreme emotional situations, as nothing in day to day life is as serious as being placed where a mistake can kill you, or worse seriously disable you. I think the type of person who wants to do adrenaline sports isn't particularly attracted to climbing as its actually quite sedentary with very slow progress and very few thrills, so it sort of filters out people who want actual fear, which may explain the incidence of mental illness, though I don't quite make the link myself. Soloign is definitely the best thing i've found for sorting my head out. Its one of the times you can meditate and people respect you want some quiet and don't interrupt you (some people always will though)
P

In reply to pete theobald: Cheers, that's confirmed what I was thinking. I find the mountain environment mediatory although I stumbled upon it's effect rather than chose it. I have been in the hills since before I could walk (baby in arms of my mother) when my old man used to fell-walk a lot and pretty much as soon as I could walk he put some little boots on my feet and dragged me up Helvellyn in the snow! I have never stopped and have broadened my horizons and skills a lot more recently but the most significant advancement in my adventurous nature came after a split with a long-term girlfriend. I headed for the hills again - and it worked, only this time I discovered what it gave me instead of letting it just drift through me unawares. Knowledge of self I suppose. Nowadays, as I'm sure you know, you have to go a lot further to find solitude and peace than you used to. Hardly ever bother with the Lake District any more, The Highlands and Les Alpes are the playground these days.

In reply to Mart Ford:

I don't agree with it being harder to find solitude. I could always go to the eastern edges on a weeknight evening. There'd be people around but thye'd leave you alone if you looked like you wanted to be left alone, and you could do your own thing. Go to the lancs quarries in the evening or even some parts of the peak district where people don't think to go and you'll find it very peaceful. Just don't go to the first place you think of. Up from the burbage quarries is very quiet, but i've had very relaxing times at the burbage south boulders relaxing sat on the rocks on a sunny weekend with no-one about. Don't know how it applies to the lakes though, but theres still popular places and not heard of places.
P

In reply to pete theobald: My idea of solitude is heading for the hills and not seeing anyone all day until you get back to the pub. You'd find that difficult in the Lakes.

In reply to bri 707:

I do feel for you - though I can never fully connect with what you are presently going through. I feel that you are dealing with things with great personal dignity - and care for others. My original post was borne out of a failure to empathise with the person in a car who, in parking it across a set of railway tracks with the intention of taking his life - must have at some stage realised that his suffering would be replicated by that of many others (quite apart from his family).

Good wishes

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

<I think anyone who wants to actually kill themselves and goes ahead with it successfully is beyond feeling any selfishness>

I am very involved in work on mental health issues - and I genuinely try to deal non-judgementally with those who experience mental health issues in their lives; but I don't think I'd agree with this point you are making.

It wasn't an 'accident' either. The person there deliberately did something - and he took out other people too. I think we shouldn't afford him the level of dignity in death being talked about by some people on here just because he had an incremental set of opportunities to change his actions (okay, still killing himself but not leaving so many others' lives in ruins)

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

< ICD-10 or DSM-1V>

Both function not to intervene positively on mental health & related issues but to secure control and limits on who gets what. They are instruments of oppression, operated by the most perverse and repressive (historically) profession - psychiatrists.

In reply to Mart Ford:

< A lot of people use the term 'depression' when they're feeling a bit down>

Because we have - as a society - an almost inbuilt dread of confronting the 'other' in ourselves (viewed as weakness or as perversion etc etc). Moreover, we are not prepared to deal in a proactive way to intervene on matters relarting to mental health because of this. Just look at the per capita spending on 'emotional health' in this country - it is dire. All we seem to do is roll out yet another band of psychologists who are ace at shutting doors after the thing has bolted and who use their operational forms as a means of maintaining high-status power over punters in crisis.

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

Dirty Gecko,
The statistically normal population includes the whole population 100% of it. The normal part comes from the shape of the distribution - the normal curve. The Normal of that curve is the statistical mean which a very few people may or may not fall under. If you set alpha at 5% you will exclude five percent of a normally distributed population but that has no bearing on what is considered semantically "normal" in any given population.

You may also like to check out the literature and my own writing on this site for a fuller review of the etiology of self harm. I think i's been conclusivly proven that in may cases self harm and indeed suicide need not be acts of agression or even motivated as forms of dialogue. But simply ways of coping with a pain which has become unbearable.

Of course I am in no way condoning involving others in a suicide attempt.

I'm sorry to start our contact on this site with criticisms of your writing as you seem both eloquent and insightful, but I think you may need to turn you attention more fully to these matters which affect so many people so painfully - myself included.

Peace
ml

Also (((hugs))) to Al Evans and everyone else out there who's been hurt by this stuff.

In reply to Greenbanks: Ive had cancer in the past. If it ever comes back and I dont fancy the slash & burn treatment I will find a nice big mountain to sit on, throw a big party beforehand and then choose my time to go. Aint selfish and aint nought to do with depression.

In reply to David Hooper:


I've often thought that - if I had something going on which mean't a slow decline & lots of suffering for my family I'd be wanting to share my intentions with them and then go for it in that way. "In control of your own life, even in death"

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Mountain Lass,

I merely uses the normal distribution in passing, to attempt to explain what is meant by "normal", which is subjective especially in the art of psychiatry. I realise more than most that this is a redundant way of diagnosing mental illness, but it is a rough guide, as I mentioned above. People do have variations of mood, that is part of life, depression is when these variations are more pronounced than usual or there is dullness of affect so that people are in a perpetual low mood.

I have read quite widely the aetiology of self harm. Admitedly, its not my specialist area and is not ever likely to be, however, having met many people professionally who have commit DSH or parasuicide I would agree with you that there are definately genuine cases where there pain, either physically or emotionally, becomes too much for that individual to bear with and they use DSH as a way of either;
1. Escaping from this pain by giving them an alternative to worry about.
2. As a matter of attention seeking so that others realise the pain/anguish they are going through.

Of course, in the first instance, I wouldn't label this as being selfish etc as some people have suggested of suicide above. In the second instance, this is slightly selfish, as there are always people to talk to, if not in the immediate family or friends, then professionals such as Doctors, self-help groups etc.

I hope this clears a few things up. I don't mean to cause offence.

Regards

In reply to Greenbanks:

ICD-10 and DSM-1V are diagnostic criteria for mental illness, the former being the International Classification and the latter the American equivalent. Again, these were used in passing to say that personality disorders are not strictly speaking a mental illness, as they are merely extremes of "normal" personality.

As far as people on the train were concerned this was an accident. The driver, whether he commit suicide or not, wasn't to know who was on the train, so there was not any intent to take out certain individuals. I maintain that, again, IF he commit suicide, was unable to think rationally as he would have been severely ill, and people are being a little quick to condemn. As these people are generally not the informed members of the public, they can be forgiven, but if you have qualifications in mental health, that is very worrying.

In reply to Dirty Gecko:

< if you have qualifications in mental health, that is very worrying>

So, one must not personally 'judge' on matters of (possible) suicide, but it's ok for you to make an (equally) sweeping statement about my professional orientation or capacity? With folk like you assuming such a high moral ground its little wonder that some of us get really frustrated by the intransigence & lack of understanding in the field (sorry, now who's getting judgemental!)

In reply to Greenbanks:

Having read most of this thread, there are many reasons for suicide, the difference between a suicide bomber in Iraq and a devoted couple who have spent all their lifes together and find that one is terminally ill and decide to end there days together, show how broad the subject is.

Over the years have known people who have gone down this road, some all it was was a cry for help that went tragically wrong.

I also know someone who was a keen walker all his life. When he could not have his daily walk, his half pint at his local or get to the train station to visit his family without a lot off effort. He decided it was time to clock off. Had had a reasonable innings.
He priced up his own funeral, withdrew the money from his savings and left it on the bedside table, had his last dram befor going to bed with some pills. This was all pre-planed and I don't think it was selfish in anyway. He had just reach a point in his life where he could put the full stop in himself instead of festering in a nursing home for who knows how long, he wasn't really a bingo man.
I think it was a very brave and unselfish decision as his main fear was he would become a burden on the people he loved dearly.