UKC

A very very important question for UKC legal eagles:

Due to my "persistent absence" (That means I've had 2 single days off on two occasions in my first 6 months) I maybe facing a disciplinary procedure. I don't get paid to be off sick either, so the company in theory hasn't lost anything.

What I'd like to know, is that if this is the only reason they choose to discipline me/sack me is it lawful? Surely this is 2007 not 1907 and workers must surely get a better deal than in the dark old days
It's going to go on my reference as gross misconduct which I want to avoid too. My Union Rep isn't in and I've already been told off for talking to her so I'd appreciate a discrete answer ASAP.

I have handed in my notice already btw.

In reply to 2pints: Lawful maybe not,but if you worked in the Building trade its the sort of thing that as gone on for years,,but usually they want rid of people who arent up to the jobs.....

In reply to 2pints:

If you've only been there 6 months then you've pretty much no rights whatsoever, I'm afraid. They could tell you to get lost just because they don't like your face, or the colour of your ron hills

In reply to 2pints:



had they not lost 2 days worth of work by a member of staff?

In reply to 2pints: cant comment on the absence cause i dont know the circumstances, but if it was u off sick, and you rang in sick properly, then it sounds a bit off.

They cant tell you off for talking to your union rep, that in itself is good grounds to make them appear like they are handling the situation badly in any appeal.

Whats the deal with ur absences? gross misconduct is pretty serious, if its just u off sick, then its not G. M

In reply to 2pints: Why on earth do you want to carry on working there ?????

In reply to Al Evans:
Oh don't worry, my notice has been handed in!

In reply to 2pints:

If your notice has been handed in they may choose to not make you work it and let you leave straight away.

They're not allowed to tell any future employers about any disciplinary action if they do decide to take any..

In reply to lukea6:


Sure?

That's something they said, it'd go on my record as GM for all employers to see!

In reply to lukea6: "They're not allowed to tell any future employers about any disciplinary action if they do decide to take any.."

They are if it's true - this seems to be becoming a modern myth that the contents of references are in some way proscribed - utter tosh. If you write something about someone that's untrue they can sue, but that's all - there's nothing in the law that says what you can and can't put.

In reply to 2pints: Do you need a reference from them?

In reply to 2pints:

my old boss threatened me with a disciplinary with a week left to work. i laughed at him and went off on a rant
p

In reply to 2pints:

Pretty certain.
I'll double check for you but I know for a fact that most major compnies have a standard letter to avoid any come back from ex employees. I'll check the exact rules.

In reply to 2pints:

become self emplyed and avoid all the hassle with employers


when you dont get out of bed you can tell yourself off and if your sick your sick ... and not just climbing cause the weathers good..

like a few people I know have do in the past ...

In reply to 2pints: you don't have to cite them as a referee and they would be in the wrong if they gave a reference for you without your written permission

when I had concerns about emploment issues i phoned the mployment people in a bit of the government - think i went through the trade and industry site and they have an employment helpline thing that was really helpful and clarified what my employer counld and couldn't do - i wanted to make sure i could request a copy of a reference and you can - no realy think as 'confidential'...

good luck

In reply to Etak: You don't have to give them as a referee, but it would look funny if you were asked to give your current/last employer and you refused, wouldn't it?

In reply to lukea6:


this is crap.
Most major companies are very careful about what they say (due to risk of being sued) however if something is proven then they can say it.
They are also just as theoretically at risk from being sued by then company asking for the reference.

All of this also applies only to trackable references, a telephone conversation normally isnt and is used as a more honest way of getting feedback.

In reply to Burns:

Probably yes

It would look really fishy if I said I didn't want them to be a referee as they're the company I'm leaving!

In reply to dissonance: yep. But this is becoming more commonly quoted by people as 'fact'.

In reply to 2pints:
right just remembered - these were the people I called and thy were really helpful

http://www.acas.org.uk/

In reply to andy:

sure it might look funny but you can still do it -

as for disiplinary as I understand it (from ACAS) they can inlude it in a reference if it has been proved- but they must have taken it through their disiplinry procedures which has to include and opportunity for you to apeal and to take it to someone above your line manager... your boss can not just give you a written - or verbal warning that goes on your record (but call acas they will explian all

In reply to andy: I would just leave it off your employement record.

In reply to Etak: here's what the place I work at says (and you can be pretty sure it's been well checked with counsel etc):

"Disciplinary Action
If appropriate, information relating to disciplinary action will be disclosed on a reference provided by the Group. This will include:

disciplinary suspension
disciplinary/compliance investigation
disciplinary interview or
any formal disciplinary action which is not spent.

If the employee resigns during the course of any disciplinary/compliance proceedings, this will be disclosed on the reference."

ACAS's advice will be given with the intention of keeping the parties out of court - there's no specific law that states what can and can't be stated on a reference - if it's wrong you sue.

In reply to Al Evans: Sadly if you work for an FSA regulated organisation (as I think the OP wants to do) in many cases you can't - the regulator requires you to disclose exactly what you were doing (including in the case of woman who worked for me a few years ago having to ring Keycamp in the states to prove she was wiping US kids' arses instead of selling dodgy insurance) for the last (I think) 10 years.

In reply to 2pints: Firstly, you have a right to representation, they cannot stop you talking to a Union Rep, if the workplace has one.
Secondly, you get the meeting postponed until theRep is available to join you in the meeting. There will be at least 2 members of supervision/maqnagement in there, so you need that other voice...
Thirdly, has this all blown up SINCE you put in your notice?

Yes, things have moved on since 1907, but come on, get real, you need to be accurate and honest about every thing you may have done to upset them? Been downloading porn, and broken the company server, for example?

TTG

In reply to O Mighty Tim:

Yes, I handed in my notice on Friday and was ill on Saturdy.

Not downloaded Porn, I use my landlords wireless network for that, not broken ought, been late, photocopied my arse etc.

Oh joy, week and a bit to go, preying I get one of the 7 job I have interviews lined up for or at least something within a few weeks, which seems pretty likely.

In reply to andy: I think we are saying the same thing... what ACAS seemed to say was that if you don't cite someone as a reference then offically they can not give you one (but how do you gaurd against the unrecorded phone call??)

Yes a referee can write anything on a reference- you can request to see it (and unless it concern stte secrets you will be able to see it) - if they have written anyting untrue then you can sue them / make them retract it etc

as for disiplinary they need to be done properly - not just threatened by a manger (my experince!)

good luck to the op

In reply to Etak: i think so - except the bit where ACAS seem to be saying that unless the full disciplinary process has run its course (ie appeal etc) then they can't mention it - my firm would, and state that disciplinary proceedings were ongoing - which sounds like the case with the OP.

Hope it goes well, anyway, 2Pints - sure it'll be fine.

In reply to 2pints: You need to see the companys disciplinary policy. They can discipline you for having time off in the probationary period if their policy states as such. You cannot be disciplined for talking to a Union Rep and you should be accompanied to the disciplinary hearing and have all appropriate paperwork prior to the meeting. It is not normally Gross Misconduct unless you didnt follow the procedures when you were off sick - i.e. phone in before a certain time, etc. If you look on the ACAS website (www.acas.org.uk), that will tell you statutory guidelines, but yes your reference can and will state as such any disciplinaries which were in process or completed at time of leaving. Again, they may escort you off the premises there and then if they dont want you to work your notice out however they still have to pay you your notice period along with any outstanding holiday pay. Without knowing further details, I cannot be more specific but I hope this helps.

In reply to 2pints: Well, without knowing ALL the relevant facts, I'd think you are looking at a possible Constructive Dismissal claim, and possibly a Harassment/Bullying claim, as they are threatening to blight your future just because you've handed in your notice...
As I say, I don't know THEIR side, so I'm not offering ANY sort of advise, just looking at what is in front of me.

TTG

In reply to O Mighty Tim: How can it be constructive dismissal? He handed his notice in first...

In reply to stevefroud: My old firm (FTSE top 10) used to put people on a 'process' (remarkably similar to disciplinary!) when they had 3 separate instances of sick leave in a 12 month period - but then it was up to the manager to decide if it was kosher or not.

In reply to andy:


My firm does that now, also if you have more than 10 day sickness in any one 12 month period.

In reply to Bingly Bong: That's exactly what constructive dismissal is: being forced to resign due to the unfair actions of your employer.

In reply to Boomer: But I thought he was leaving cos he didnt like his job, not that they were pushing him out.

In reply to Bingly Bong:
Yeh the job's shit that's why I'm leaving. It's the manner in which I'm leaving that worries me.

Was jsut worried that I'd be sacked or have a GM on my record or that I left pending one, which is what I have the problem with.

I have a job interview as a trainee insolvency broker for EVERSHEDS, I don't intend to let a shit job like this f*ck up my potential career by penalising me for having a cold.

In reply to 2pints: Listen mate, instead of getting advice of a load of climbers, you're best doing what others have already stated: get some professional advice. If you are in a Union, they should be your first port of call. At the end of day you need to know exactly what your position is. If you've had 2 days sick due to genuine illness then that is not gross misconduct - simple as that. That would get laughed out of any Employment Tribuneral. If they have made an allegation of gross misconduct then it's slightly suprising that they're still letting you work for them. In any case, it looks like they don't want you and you don't want them - I'm sure something that suits both parties can be sorted out with a bit of common sense. Anyway, get some proper advice ASAP.

In reply to 2pints: Someone is pulling your pisser if they've told you having 2 days off sick is gross misconduct - it's not, and I'm sure if you read your HR policy it won't be described as that - however absence management does need to be done, and a proven way of reducing absence is by 'increasing the heat' a bit on those people who are off more than average (which to be honest I don't think you have been!).

In reply to 2pints:
Been told off for speaking to your union rep??? WTF?

In reply to Removed User:
Narh,

I just got told "It's not in your interests to go crying to the union whenever anything happens, it just marks you down as a trouble maker and will do your career no favours. Your union rep is only there when it comes to your disciplinary meeting"

That's what I got told. Thankfully, my union rep is the person that sorted it all out for me, funnily enough, not my boss!

In reply to 2pints:

You've got a case on your hands! Were there any witnesses?

In reply to 2pints: I have to admit you seem to be taking so much flak Im beginning to think you might be a troublemaker!

In reply to 2pints: Rather than grovel, which you dont seem to be doing, I would be making a strong case with the union for compensation.

In reply to 2pints: how much time did you have off with that broken femur?

In reply to 2pints:

if they don't want you talking to the union rep it is highly likely that they are bang in the wrong and don't want the union involved because that would show them up as bullying tw*ts who ignore the normal employment rules.

In reply to 2pints:

I'd say keep your head down, work your notice and move on. Stirring like crazy will get you nowhere in real terms. If you are planning to make a career in the same type of industry it might be wise to find out who plays golf with who as it were. Management across different firms do converse about having to waste time on employment tribunals, you wouldn't want your name coming up in conversation would you? (except if you could wangle a couple of hundred thousand compensation that is!)

In reply to Fawksey:

I took about 3 and a bit weeks off with my femur and a few odd days here and there.

I was only a temp, so obviously not getting paid to be sick (Nor am I now) but they were brilliant about it, arranged shifts around when I could get in and asked no questions at all when I called in sick cos I couldn't make it in.

Funnily enough, it's the same company I work for now, all be it a different department. I worked there for 3 years on and off and never had a problem, now 3 months here and I've been called a union trouble maker, almost disciplined for not reading stuff word for word off a script and once for giving an incorrect phone number.

It may sound like I'm having a winge, as usual, but I really feel agrieved about this and know that even though my so called colleagues at Lloyds were witches, I was never treated this little respect by "management"!

Oh I love UKC,where would I be without somewhere to vent my frustration!

In reply to 2pints:
>>


Concentrating on your work and not making silly mistakes? ;oP

In reply to marie:

Ok ok, rub it in.

If I did nothing but read these sodding questions I'd go mad.

I NEED UKC!

I hope my new job doesn't give me access to it

In reply to 2pints: They say that violence solves nothing, but sometimes a piece of 4x2 is the only way.

In reply to 2pints: Having read that you had about four weeks off (three and a half weeks plus a few days here and there), I would reiterate the advice above, work the notice and close the door quietly after you.

Its never a good idea to burn bridges so early in your working life, yes your colleagues are witches, the company sucks, work stinks etc etc. we all feel that, get used to it, you have another 43 years on your sentence, possibly 46 with good behaviour!

In reply to woolsack:

No no, that was when I was a temp working for another department with absolutely no connection with this current job and I declared it on my application form etc.

Ho hum

I bloody hope I get more than one offer of a job from all these interviews, I think I need to sit down and think about it before committing to another job, I've gone from one mistake to the next these last 6 months

In reply to 2pints:

Same HR dept?

Try reading Faust then decide whether financial services etc is right for you

In reply to woolsack:

No totally different, I was employed by an agency in my old job.

I know financial services is for me, I adored my job at sharedealing, which is why i really want the job in Unit Trust Admin and the chance to get the IAQ and some other experience.

In reply to 2pints:

Having skimmed through the thread I get the distinct feeling that:

1. You haven't really told us the whole story here
2. There's more bollocks than usual being spouted in the name of advice.

To reiterate some of the saner voices:
- Employers don't start disciplinaries for fun. They are an enormous distraction and drain - why would they bother if you have already resigned, unless there's some seriously bad blood established already?
- Employers can write whatever they like on a reference as long as it is true. In a phone call they will probably be even more open but "off the record"
- You can talk to a union rep whenever you want and most disciplinary procedures include representation or support, even in non-union environments

To be perfectly honest, from the way you talk about the absences (which grew from 2 days to several weeks in the course of the thread) and your relationship with the employer, it sounds like you f*cked this one up a bit. My advice is not to make it worse. If I've substantially misinterpreted it all and done you a grave disservice, then I apologise - but that is how it reads.

J

In reply to 2pints:

2pints, I've followed your threads many a time on this subject for several reasons:

1) a good friend works for your current employer
2) I work in a similar field/environment
3) I wish you well to find a job/career you want

I really hope what you say above is true, but right or wrong do you really think naming your current employers (as in previous threads) and naming a potential employer is helping you. To be honest if a lurker from HR in the potential company you named in this thread happened to be reading, s/he probably wouldn't give you the job. No offense, but I wouldn't !!

In reply to 2pints:



No no

Just to clarify in this job I've had 2 days off, the few weeks was when I was working as a contractor in another job and is totally separate.

I've not done anything wrong, other than being ill and it was unofficially that I was told to leave the union alone.

I give in, I'm resigned (Quite literally) to the fact that I have no choice but to leave, sooner rather than later and put it all behind me

Oh well, 7 job interviews!

In reply to 2pints: If what you say is correct surely you have grounds to start a grievance procedure? Suggest you check your company's disciplinary and grievance procedures and speak to your union rep asap. Seems daft for the company to start a disciplinary after you've handed in your notice. Have you rubbed someone up the wrong way?

In reply to Tiggs:

Don't think so.

My last day is next Saturday, I'm going to just sit it out and leave quietly. I'll talk to my boss tomorrow when she does my "back to work" form. Pretty sure "fingers crossed" she won't do anything. She's already negotiated my notice period down for me

Ironically enough, she's off sick today

In reply to 2pints:


I don't think that they have a decent disciplinary proceedure - something that they need to have by law now..

2 days sick = gross misconduct??

they are on a v sticky wicket with that one!?

Any paperwork? - You should be able to go for constructive dismissal if you resign because of it. You can only be dismissed unfairly if they sack you.

any help needed - mail me boss

cheers

si

In reply to 2pints: So, if you're 'pretty sure' she won't do anything, who's winding you up about the disciplinary and why have you been fretting about it on here?

In reply to Tiggs:

Something another of my bosses said today when I was thnkign about going home early as I felt like shit earlier this afternoon. He looked in my file and saw that I had already been off sick once. That two in 6months=an "Attendance review at level 3", basically the stage where you'd get a final written warning is more than likley ie gross misconduct.

We'll wait and see, I'm going next Saturday anyway and it'll all be over.

Think maybe I should concentrate on preparing for my interviews and less stressing, although fretting is something I seem to be a natural at.

In reply to 2pints:

so basically your department has warned you about not following scripts exactly. it has followed a procedure that says if your off twice in 6 months you have to have a level 3 review. Thats not gross misconduct its a crap policy for no reason at all.

Making call centre numpties stick to scripts is a brilliant idea by the way. At my last job we had a numpty without a script recommending a customer to buy a new graphics card. The company ran a website, this is what happens when you employ idiots and let them use their initiative.
p