UKC

/ US embassy in Jerusalem

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Wanderer100 - on 14 May 2018

I can't even begin to express my disgust towards the State of Israel, the US President and Benjamin Netanyahu.  What's happening there is reprehensible. Israel has no desire for peace with Palestine or any other Arab nation

Trump has merely fanned the flames of religious hatred in a region that has so far cost 52 lives in a single day as the Palestinians quite rightly protest against the relocation of the US embassy in what can only be described  as a deliberate and hostile act aimed at grinding the Palestinians even further into the dust.  

Post edited at 18:41
8
krikoman - on 14 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

You're right

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/the_pub/well_done_donald-684826?v=1#x8783569

There's a protest organised for 5:30pm tomorrow in London.

2
Pedro50 on 14 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

I could not agree more 

3
Fozzy on 14 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Just waiting for anybody who criticises Israel’s disgusting, disproportionate, brutal and illegal actions to be branded an anti-Semite. 

4
Columbia753 - on 14 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Have too agree with you. All religion is big control scam but doing this is so stupid it is almost beyond belief.  

drunken monkey - on 14 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Well said - a bloody disgrace. At least the South Africans have balls - they know Apartheid when they see it.

2
wintertree - on 14 May 2018
In reply to Fozzy:

> Just waiting for anybody who criticises Israel’s disgusting, disproportionate, brutal and illegal actions to be branded an anti-Semite. 

I think the new norm is for person(s) unknown to send a sufficiently strongly worded email to the staff of UKC so that the thread is pulled, possibly after deliberately posting - from a sock puppet account - some outrageous anti-Semitic bile, to give the matter some urgency.

I just can’t believe that Trump has done it, or that the Israeli government allowed it.  

Post edited at 21:40
1
Stuart en Écosse - on 14 May 2018
In reply to drunken monkey:

Turkey now too, also recalled their US ambassador. A bit rich coming from them but a welcome move all the same, will have much more impact than ZA. 

Post edited at 23:45
drunken monkey - on 15 May 2018
In reply to wintertree:

I can - the man is a lunatic

Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Fozzy:

> Just waiting for anybody who criticises Israel’s disgusting, disproportionate, brutal and illegal actions to be branded an anti-Semite.

Its not disproportionate, these are violent protests organised by Hamas with incendiaries being thrown at security forces. These are not peaceful protests, Hamas wants to destroy Israel. If protesters don't want to be shot they should not join riots and attack security forces, fairly simple.... A lot of the reporting and this thread is anti- semitic, they are one sided and attempt to portray violent rioting as a peaceful protest.

 

33
GravitySucks - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

And we have a winner !

1
Wanderer100 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

In what what way is this thread anti semetic?

At least 58 dead Palestinians and many thousands injured. Netanyahu and Trump knew this would happen and have actively and deliberately escalated tensions in the region. I blame them personally  and the wider state of Israel for the unwarranted levels of violence and the tragic deaths of dozens of innocent people.  I'm absolutely raging about this and your post makes a mockery of the reality on the ground in Jerusalem. You are an apologist for state sponsored murder.

4
Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Why are they dead,  what were they doing? You forgot to mention they were involved in violent protests and were throwing incendiary devices, it would appear they were shot by snipers, in other words those with incendiaries were shot, hardly on their way to Sainsburies were they? If you are going to support Hamas at least post a balanced thread, the aim of that organisation is the destruction of Israel,  unbalanced posts are anti-semitic. 

18
thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

It's certainly very one sided.  The protests didn't start, or happen, because of Trump's decision, they would've happened anyway.  The Palestinians are attacking the fence, they are using violence, these aren't peaceful protests.  They do want to destroy Israel (not that they've got much chance of succeeding).  Israel's response might be over the top (I don't know, it's not at all clear from the reports what's actually happening) but it is a response to aggression by the Palestinians, not an attack on them for no reason.

10
Pete Dangerous - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> the aim of that organisation is the destruction of Israel,  unbalanced posts are anti-semitic. 

 

So you mean anti-Zionist really, don't you?

 

Wanderer100 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

It' a totally disproportionate response.  Water cannon and tear gas are more than effective at dispersing any petrol bomb wielding rioters.  I was in Belfast in the 80s and we managed to control riots without shooting dozens of people dead and injuring many thousands more. Israel feels emboldened to do what it wants because Trump has shown his nasty character and given support to something that should never have been considered in the first place, certainly not by any country that considers itself humane and respectful of the UN and international law.

 

3
pavelk - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Cant disagree more. All victims are the responsibility of Hamas. Israel was not shooting some peaceful demostrators but was defending it´ s border and everyone was warned before.

Yet Hamas encouraged people to attack the border and break the fence and his militants used civilians including kids as human shields.

14
Big Ger - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Fozzy:

> Just waiting for anybody who criticises Israel’s disgusting, disproportionate, brutal and illegal actions to be branded an anti-Semite. 

Jezza's playing a risky game...

 

Jeremy Corbyn has hit out at the “wholly inadequate” response of the UK and other western governments to Israel’s “slaughter” of dozens of Palestinians amid Gaza protests.

The Labour leader said ministers “cannot turn a blind eye to such wanton disregard for international law” as he called for Britain to review its arms sales to the country.

10
thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Israel is doing nothing different from what it's always done.  Trump being in office is irrelevant.

Belfast might have been bad, but it's not even close to the situation in Israel/Palestine.

3
MG - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Israel is doing nothing different from what it's always done.

And?  Completely disproportionate violence doesn't  become irrelevant just because its been happening for a long time

>  Trump being in office is irrelevant.

No it's not.  There is the immediate trigger of the embassy move without which this wouldn't have happened, at least not now. More generally Trump acquiesces to the belligerence and hard-line attitude of Netanyahu thus emboldening Israeli to be violent.  A different president would have put brake on Israel

> Belfast might have been bad, but it's not even close to the situation in Israel/Palestine.

On what basis do you say this?  

 

2
thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to MG:

> And?  Completely disproportionate violence doesn't  become irrelevant just because its been happening for a long time

And so the statement that x is happening because of y is false.

> >  Trump being in office is irrelevant.

> No it's not.  There is the immediate trigger of the embassy move without which this wouldn't have happened, at least not now. More generally Trump acquiesces to the belligerence and hard-line attitude of Netanyahu thus emboldening Israeli to be violent.  A different president would have put brake on Israel

It was already happening prior to the move.  No president has been able to tell Israel what to do.

> On what basis do you say this?  

Really?  Suicide bombers, the many Arab/Isaraeli wars, etc

 

 

3
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Why are they dead,  what were they doing? You forgot to mention they were involved in violent protests and were throwing incendiary devices, it would appear they were shot by snipers, in other words those with incendiaries were shot,

Is it OK to kill children, even if they have incendiaries, who are so far away from being able to hit anyone with those incendiaries, that it defies the laws of physics.

Blaming Hamas is BS and you know it, Israeli keep falling into the same old trap if you believe, "Hamas are putting their people in the way of the bullets, we don't want to shoot them". How many times are Israel going to fall for that evil Hamas plan?

What's you reasoning for all the killings of Palestinians, before Hamas? It's not like the Isreali's have only started killing since Hamas can into existence. If this were true you might have a point, but it so obviously isn't!

 

5
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to pavelk:

> Cant disagree more. All victims are the responsibility of Hamas. Israel was not shooting some peaceful demostrators but was defending it´ s border and everyone was warned before.

It's not a border, it's a fence, an armistice line, if you like. there really were no clashes either, because there is a buffer zone between the fence and the IDF, so hardly clashes, massacre most probably, but not clashes.

 

1
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

> Jezza's playing a risky game...

What's risky about it?

Are you suggesting he should keep his gob shut?

1
Big Ger - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

Not at all, but what with recent accusations of him, and the party, being antisemitic, he has to be very circumspect.

4
Alasdair Fulton - on 15 May 2018

In this very polarised "debate" those who are on the side of Isreal regularly blame Hamas and the Palestinians for:

1. Using human shields

2. "Attacking" the "border" with "weapons".

However, they do not seem to ever provide any concrete evidence of this. Where are the photos? Where are the independently verified reports?

The same words and line of reasoning were used just this morning on the BBC1 Morning news when a guest speaking for Isreal (I can't remember his name) was allowed to repeat these same lines, unchallenged (Hamas to blame, attacking the border, weapons). Where is the evidence? I'm not saying there is none, I'm not saying "all palestinians were unarmed". But so far, none has been presented to back up this case.

Let's put it another way. Isreal 68: Palestine Nil.  If the border was so truely threatened, would there not have been slightly more risk of Isreali casualties? 

 

 

 

thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

There are lots of photos of people throwing rocks, etc.

E.g top story on the bbc - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44116340

What are you looking for?

1
drunken monkey - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

They are being shot dead by snipers from circa 500m-1km away FFS

If they can throw an incendiary that far then they should head to the Olympics - well, if Israel would let them that is.

Post edited at 12:16
1
jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

40,000 protesters at the fence, hamas branding it as the great march of return, hamas saying the demonstrations were aimed at removing the transient border with Israel.

Peaceful? Enough videos show that it wasn't, enough history to show that there would be a disaster if the border was breached.

See both sides please! You help nothing by supporting stuff like this.

2
Alasdair Fulton - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

Throwing rocks over 1km from the actual border. And the proportionate response is to shoot them from long range with a sniper rifle. Really?

3
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

How many IDF forces have been injured or killed in this protest?

 

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SECURITY FORCES SNIPING PROTESTORS

This is Israel's Bloody Sunday and to deny it is approximately the same level as being a Flat earther

5
jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

Is that what happened?

3
jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Were they protesters?

4
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

You're making out as if it was some garden fence with the Palestinians on one side and in the next garden the Jews. Google earth it and see the space between.

The simple "conflict" "massing hoards" doesn't hold up. Of course there was a protest, of course there are plenty of people, but you make it sound like they're all about to break through like the fall of the Berlin wall.

There's enough space for Israel to have warned people if they are actually touching the fence or if they break through, they would be shot, this is definitely not what happened.

They could be using non-leathal force to protect the fence but they aren't.

If you look to see both sides then look at the bullets the protesters have been shot with, designed to shatter on impact, and then look at where most of the injuries are, in the legs. This whole episode has been planned for, by both sides I'll agree, but it's been planned by Israel to teach the Palestinians a lesson and to hurt and maim.

Let's not forger Gaza is a prison, Hamas isn't liked by everyone in Gaza, so what are those people supposed to do?

 

 

3
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Is that what happened?


Pretty much yes, there's plenty of news about the Israeli snipers, and the orders they've been given. From April not yesterday, so it's nothing new either.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/10/video-shows-israeli-snipers-cheering-direct-hit-on-palestinian-protester/?utm_term=.66504f6e56b6

balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

Well 8 of them were kids, and at least 3 were paramedics treating injuries - I'm sure they posed a grave threat to the IDF entrenched in buildings hundreds of meters away behind a f*cking big fence

 

 

1
thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

You've skipped from one thing to another.  That's a picture of someone attacking the Israelis which is what people seem to be denying is happening and which seems evidently true.  It doesn't say where it is but who do you think they're throwing them at?  Thin air?

I've said I've no idea if it's proportionate - largely because I don't trust any of the sources.  Sources like the BBC don't even try to explain what's actually happening.

Alasdair Fulton - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

I cannot say for sure, but my understanding is that there is a 300m - 1km buffer zone within Gaza (Palestine) which the IDF "monitors". 

If a palestinian with a rock or a makshift hand grenade enters the zone they are likely to be shot. Even if they made it to the fence, it is heavily armed and defended - the chances of a rock, hand gun or a "thown incendiary device" making it over the fence and anywhere near an Isreali civilian is very low.

Yes, Isreal has a right to defend it's borders form a perceived attack (whether this constitutes and actual attack on the border is debatable) but under international law the response *must* be proportionate and *every* attempt must be made to minimise civilian casualties. This response is neither. It's a massacre.

2
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

Its a pretty shit border fence if Rocks are a danger to it

jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

Pretty much? I suppose that's good enough. You've convinced me. What a bunch of...

1
jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Were they?

2
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Big Ger:

> Not at all, but what with recent accusations of him, and the party, being antisemitic, he has to be very circumspect.

Some might say he should, doesn't want to be labelled anti-Semitic does he?

I've been called it off and on for years now, it's not so common now, it was the first thing you were called if people disagreed with you over Israel. You have to fight through it, to be honest. People know what they are and what they aren't. Obviously there are people within the Labour party who have  a problem, but there are people in all parties, or indeed society that have a problem.

If you don't speak up when you can, you're aiding the aggressor.

 

jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Were they throwing rocks at the fence?

1
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Pretty much? I suppose that's good enough. You've convinced me. What a bunch of...

Good, it only takes a little investigation to dispel some of what we're being told.

 

Here's a map. Interestingly Israel put up the fence and then decided the Palestinians should keep out of  the first 100m altogether with farmers only allowed in the next 100-300m, and yet there doesn't appear to be a boundary / buffer zone on the Israeli side.

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_Gaza_Strip_with_no-go_zone_2012.jpg

Post edited at 12:57
1
Alasdair Fulton - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

Where are the Israelis?  I don't see any. I see a man with a slingshot, a rock, some fire. The most "threatening" scene is around 18 seconds in and, to me, the nearest hit-able object looks to be 300-500m away. 

At 45 seconds there appear to be people breaching a wire fence, but it's very unclear as to what's going on. 

I'd like to see some footage from the front line in Isreal, showing the "clear and present danger". Once again, I'm *not* saying that there was no danger. I just am yet to be convinced by anything I've seen that Israel was ever under any real threat. 

 

1
jonnie3430 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

The aggressor in this case being the ones trying to get through the fence?

2
MG - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

> And so the statement that x is happening because of y is false.

No it isn't. The proximate cause is clear, as is the lack of concern from the US

> It was already happening prior to the move.  No president has been able to tell Israel what to do.

Not as an order but the US has strong influence.  Again, you see this in binary terms.  The world simply isn't like that.

> Really?  Suicide bombers, the many Arab/Isaraeli wars, etc

There was essentially and 20 year civil war in Northern Ireland with many bombs and assassinations.  Overall probably not as severe as the Palastine but there are clear parallels, most notably Bloody Sunday which is the closest the UK came to the behaviour that is typical of Israel.  The difference being that the UK state's behaviour on Bloody Sunday is widely seen as appalling and mistake, while Israel sees that sort of behaviour as unremarkable.

 

balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to jonnie3430:

Were they what?

 

(Hint try to make your point with more than a 2 word question)

thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

It's a massacre in which (as someone said above) the Israelis appear to be aiming at people's legs so that they don't kill.  Using over the top language doesn't make the Israelis seem worse, it makes you seem like you can't see that there's more than one side.

Ruanda was a massacre, this isn't.

Balmybaldwin - rocks kill people.

9
thomasadixon - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:

> Where are the Israelis?  I don't see any. I see a man with a slingshot, a rock, some fire. The most "threatening" scene is around 18 seconds in and, to me, the nearest hit-able object looks to be 300-500m away. 

I can't look at the video where I am, I just linked to a picture.

> At 45 seconds there appear to be people breaching a wire fence, but it's very unclear as to what's going on. 

> I'd like to see some footage from the front line in Isreal, showing the "clear and present danger". Once again, I'm *not* saying that there was no danger. I just am yet to be convinced by anything I've seen that Israel was ever under any real threat. 

Fair enough, more information would be helpful.  I'm yet to be convinced that these evidently rioting people who are clearly throwing stuff at somebody, and (some of) who are clearly working with Hamas who use guns, ieds and rockets, are actually peaceful protesters who've been attacked by the Israelis for no reason when they were a mile away.  It doesn't seem remotely plausible.  I'm not saying that the Israelis haven't done anything wrong, I'm saying that claiming they're slaughtering Palestinians for no reason isn't believable.

MG - Again, you see this in binary terms.

Back to that?  Can't be bothered with that old argument.

1
MG - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Back to that?  Can't be bothered with that old argument.

Which is why you will carry on backing populism.

1
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

 

> Balmybaldwin - rocks kill people.

 

Again... how many people have been killed by these "violent" protests over the last 4 weeks?

 

How many Palestinians can throw rocks that far?

If you can't see this as a massacre, then presumably you thought Bloody Sunday was a flower festival?

 

2
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Balmybaldwin - rocks kill people.

Not if you're far enough away they can't hit you with then FFS!

There hasn't been one IDF injury from all of this, although we're told the protesters have grenades, AK47s and rifles, not one!!

I don't want there to be, to prove my point, but don't you find that a little disconcerting? Over 1,300 injuries from bullets or shrapnel and not one on the other side? That was just yesterday.

Don't you think those figures speak volumes, firstly about how Israel is being attacked and secondly how much damage the IDF are doing, not only to the Palestinians, but to any hopes of peace?

Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> Not if you're far enough away they can't hit you with then FFS!

> There hasn't been one IDF injury from all of this, although we're told the protesters have grenades, AK47s and rifles, not one!!

> I don't want there to be, to prove my point, but don't you find that a little disconcerting? Over 1,300 injuries from bullets or shrapnel and not one on the other side? That was just yesterday.

> Don't you think those figures speak volumes, firstly about how Israel is being attacked and secondly how much damage the IDF are doing, not only to the Palestinians, but to any hopes of peace?

Israel has publicly stated it will defend its border fence from attacks by Hamas. this is a very violent riot and attack on the border fence, they tried tear gas first and it didn't work, what are they supposed to do, ask them nicely to go home...and take their petrol bombs with them.

3
Alasdair Fulton - on 15 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

Lunch break is over so can't keep replying.

"actually peaceful protesters who've been attacked by the Israelis for no reason when they were a mile away"

Peaceful protesters - not my words! Threatening, angry, pissed off, oppressed  is how I'd put it.

Enough of a threat to be shot, even in the legs? I don't see it. 

 

 

john arran - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

I wonder what kind of response it would elicit, if hypothetical UK protesters were to be demonstrating against perceived police unfairness, throwing stones through police station windows and trying to break down the door, and were dealt with by police shooting them dead in the street?

krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Israel has publicly stated it will defend its border fence from attacks by Hamas. this is a very violent riot and attack on the border fence, they tried tear gas first and it didn't work, what are they supposed to do, ask them nicely to go home...and take their petrol bombs with them.


Stick by what you've said for a start off, not kill and injure people nowhere near the fence!!

1
Mike Highbury - on 15 May 2018
In reply to john arran: Your may wish to add that the rioters have a history of firing crude and not-so-crude rockets and other missiles. 

 

1
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Israel has publicly stated it will defend its border fence from attacks by Hamas. this is a very violent riot and attack on the border fence, they tried tear gas first and it didn't work, what are they supposed to do, ask them nicely to go home...and take their petrol bombs with them.


So has anyone actually attacked the border fence, or even wandered within 50m of it? So far there is no footage of this. so you can't very well call this protest anything other than a protest. It's certainly not an attack.

1
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

> Your may wish to add that the rioters have a history of firing crude and not-so-crude rockets and other missiles. 


History isn't, what's been happening in the last six weeks though is it. Jesus, Mike, let's try and stick to the facts.

Even in 2014 when Hamas were firing rockets, Israeli casualties were very few. Again, not wanting there to be any, but let's get real here.

1
john arran - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

> Your may wish to add that the rioters have a history of firing crude and not-so-crude rockets and other missiles. 

No, you may wish to add that. I don't see any way that today's demonstrators could reasonably be shot dead on account of historical crimes committed by others. That's not how justice works.

krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

If you look at the link to the picture of the fence, I won't call it a border because even Israel don't see it as such.

But it's pretty typical of the Israel government's mind set, they build a fence and tell the Pallies they have to stay in their bit. Then instead of building a buffer area on the Israeli side, like the Berlin wall's no man's land, they tell the Palestinians they have to keep at least 300m away from the wall, but better make that a bit more to be safe!!!

They've done this all around Gaza, even the sea!! The only gap is the Egypt border which are the second puppet to the US, so they are hardly likely to kick up much of a fuss are they?

2
Mike Highbury - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman: 

> Even in 2014 when Hamas were firing rockets, Israeli casualties were very few. Again, not wanting there to be any, but let's get real here.

This thread is very odd. Several posters appear to want to see Israeli soldiers and even civilians injured otherwise it isn't fair. And shooting people from a distance is seriously unreasonable; which is to suggest that the bayonet is preferred?

12
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

I don't think anyone wants that, and I think you know that too.

I think what people are pointing out is considering the fear or the imposing invasion, were being told Israel is reacting to and the simple dichotomy between the number of injuries on each side, especially since we told about the AKs and grenades, one might expect a few injuries on the Israeli side.

It's hardly "clashes" is it? It's one side shooting another.

Post edited at 14:14
1
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

The BBC and other western media outlets dutifully regurgitated Israeli propaganda. They wrote of “clashes” at the “border”. They made it sound as if Palestinians had invaded Israel, and that Israel was merely defending itself from the siege. No mention of the wall, or the decade-long Israeli blockade which has created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. And no mention of international law. Because Israel is occupying Palestinian land illegally.

 

2
Trevers - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

I'm disgusted by the number of apologists I see on here for the murder of civilians.

2
Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Trevers:

> I'm disgusted by the number of apologists I see on here for the murder of civilians.

I take it your talking about Hamas....a terrorist organisation, proscribed in this country...and behind the riots...

11
Eric9Points - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

Well quite. You could be forgiven for thinking that the evil Hamas had organised 40000 suicidal terrorists to just hurl themselves at the border in order to murder Israelis.

We are expected to forget that 70% of the population of Gaza are refugees held in what is little better than a jail. We are supposed to forget that their young see little future for themselves and have little to do with their lives. We are supposed to forget that what these hopeless young men are trying to do is to get back to the land their families fled from.

1
Trevers - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> I take it your talking about Hamas....a terrorist organisation, proscribed in this country...and behind the riots...

What an utterly disingenuous crock of shite. Stop assuming or pretending that outrage at Israel is equivalent to support for Hamas. Your comments on this thread are deeply shameful.

2
Ridge - on 15 May 2018
In reply to john arran:

> I wonder what kind of response it would elicit, if hypothetical UK protesters were to be demonstrating against perceived police unfairness, throwing stones through police station windows and trying to break down the door, and were dealt with by police shooting them dead in the street?

I don't think the two situations are really comparable, as in your example the hypothetical protesters are attempting to storm the police station.

That scenario could easily escalate to the police being in immediate danger and being outnumbered and overwhelmed by 'unarmed' protestors. Corporals Wood and Howes were in that situation in 1988, and not shooting ended in what can only be described as torture, followed by their murders.

In your scenario I'd have no problem with dead protesters if the situation warranted it. It's completely different from shooting someone who isn't an immediate threat.

TobyA on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

You think the current Egyptian regime is a US puppet? They have their own obvious reasons for hating the Ikhwan, of which Hamas is a part.

Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Eric9Points:

> We are expected to forget that 70% of the population of Gaza are refugees held in what is little better than a jail.

Please look at the map posted by Krikoman @12:46, this at least shows the small amount of Gaza that is camps. I think a fair bit of it is slightly better than a jail even with all the problems. Also, most of your 70% (even if that's a valid figure) will be descendants of the refugees. They're only still refugees because the Arab countries have refused to integrate them so that they can be used as a political weapon.

But this is a whole separate area of debate. Amongst the sad things is that if all the international money that's been poured into Gaza had been used to improve Gaza, it would now be quite a pleasant place to live.

Oh, and I bet you never see footage of where Hamas's leaders live, too nice.

 

Post edited at 15:56
3
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

I think you'll find they are still refugees because Israel is still occupying Palestinian Land following the '48 and'67 invasions despite innumerable UN resolutions that are being ignored.  As soon as Israel withdraws to it's legally recognised borders then I'm sure the refugees (other than those displaced by the creation of Israel) will be able to go home (if their homes are still there).

 

2
Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

48 invasion, I'm afraid you've lost me there, I don't think there was any invasion then. And the Gaza border is Israel's legally recognized border.

Also, the Gaza strip was actually Egyptian (they didn't want it back with the rest of the Sinai - I wonder why).

And the West Bank was Jordanian but they don't want that back either.

Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Trevers:

> What an utterly disingenuous crock of shite. Stop assuming or pretending that outrage at Israel is equivalent to support for Hamas. Your comments on this thread are deeply shameful.

You are just a naive buffoon, and anti-semitic, Hamas have orchestrated the rioting... what exactly are the Israelis supposed to do, with 3000 violent protesters, you should stop supporting them...they knew very well what the outcome of throwing petrol bombs, and storming,  the fence with large numbers would be..

Post edited at 16:15
16
Big Ger - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Stuff you couldn't make up, part 12372820283

JERUSALEM -- An Israeli organization said Wednesday it has minted a coin bearing President Donald Trump's image to honor his recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. The Mikdash Educational Center said the "Temple Coin" features Trump alongside King Cyrus, who 2,500 years ago allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem from their exile in Babylon.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-trump-coin-honours-recognition-jerusalem-as-capital/

john arran - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Ridge:

Fair comment, and as we're only talking hypothetically it's all a bit moot, but I would have thought that even with the potential you describe, police still would wait until it was clear that immediate danger to life and limb of police officers or other personnel was a serious likelihood, and even then the intention would be to incapacitate the assailants where possible rather than shooting to kill.

krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> I take it your talking about Hamas....a terrorist organisation, proscribed in this country...and behind the riots...


Now then Jim, they're not riots, they are clashes ( if you're the News of Israel, or protests if you live in the free world and want to be honest.

The UN says we all have the right, as human beings,  to peaceful protest.

Israel has mad ensure this protest wasn't peaceful from day one.

 

1
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> You think the current Egyptian regime is a US puppet? They have their own obvious reasons for hating the  , of which Hamas is a part.


Yes I do, after Israel, which country receives the most aid from the US?

They obviously have issues with the Muslim Brotherhood, but it's pretty obvious who's pulling the strings. Israel closes to border crossing, Egypt follows suit.

 

Let's face it without the US support for Israel, we'd have had peace ages ago, they could do it now if they wanted to. But the circular funding US give to Israel, Israel buys their congressmen and representatives, suits both countries.

The Us could easily say no money until we thrash out a peace deal, and it would happen. IT needs someone strong enough to do that, obviously that rules out the present bloke.

2
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> But this is a whole separate area of debate. Amongst the sad things is that if all the international money that's been poured into Gaza had been used to improve Gaza, it would now be quite a pleasant place to live.

But the inhabitants would still be governed by Israel and what about some self determination?

 

 

Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

They wouldn't be governed by Israel (they're not now) but there would still be border controls which would gradually (probably very) relax as things became more peaceful.

They used to have a degree of self determination but then they voted in Hamas. Again I think this would gradually increase as peace became longer established.

Unfortunately we're nowhere near that kind of situation.

2
krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> They wouldn't be governed by Israel (they're not now) but there would still be border controls which would gradually (probably very) relax as things became more peaceful.

You're right of course not governed, controlled ( I was going to say imprisoned).

The thing is, it needs someone to grasp the nettle and really strive for peace, Bibi's not that man.

All side should be made to come together and debate "live" on air, so we can all see who's promising what and who is denying the other. I heard a program regarding negotiations, one of the people had been involved in Ireland, he said, it was amazing what trivial issues can hold up real progress, and what people ask for is sometimes very easy to provide.

The situation at present though, with Israeli domination and use of excessive force, is only likely to breed more hatred and more people willing to sacrifice themselves for any cause other than peace.

Post edited at 18:00
1
Jim 1003 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> Now then Jim, they're not riots, they are clashes ( if you're the News of Israel, or protests if you live in the free world and want to be honest.

> The UN says we all have the right, as human beings,  to peaceful protest.

> Israel has mad ensure this protest wasn't peaceful from day one.

Peaceful protests, petrol bombs and AK47's don't quite add up.......what planet are you on?

3
Mike Highbury - on 15 May 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Fair comment, and as we're only talking hypothetically it's all a bit moot, but I would have thought that even with the potential you describe, police still would wait until it was clear that immediate danger to life and limb of police officers or other personnel was a serious likelihood, and even then the intention would be to incapacitate the assailants where possible rather than shooting to kill.

That's not really borne out by experience, is it?

john arran - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

> That's not really borne out by experience, is it?

My impression is that in the vast majority of cases it is, yes. The possible existence of occasional widely-publicised counterexamples in no way invalidates the point.

 
Wanderer100 - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Peaceful protests, petrol bombs and AK47's don't quite add up.......what planet are you on?

You are trying very hard to ignore the facts. The facts are this. 58 dead Palestinians. Thousands of injured Palestinian casualties.  The U.N. have called on Israel to stop the slaughter of innocent civilians. France, Russia and the UK have condemned the action. 

Yet you seem to relish taking the contrary view that the victims are to blame and that Israel is within its rights to shoot down defenceless men women and children on a totally indiscriminate basis and should be commended for defending themselves. 

 

Post edited at 18:34
3
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> 48 invasion, I'm afraid you've lost me there, I don't think there was any invasion then. And the Gaza border is Israel's legally recognized border.

War/Invasion it amounts to the same (one country occupying another)

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

> Also, the Gaza strip was actually Egyptian (they didn't want it back with the rest of the Sinai - I wonder why).

> And the West Bank was Jordanian but they don't want that back either.

Whilst Gaza and the blockade is an abomination, I'm not sure why you bring it up when we are talking about the west bank

 

 

balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Peaceful protests, petrol bombs and AK47's don't quite add up.......what planet are you on?


Show us some evidence there are ak47s and grenades being used against the IDF and your argument might hold water.  Or perhaps evidence of the tens of troops maimed and killed by such weapons?

2
balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Er yes it is... when was the last time threatened police/security forces shot at protesters in this country? (it was bloody sunday to stop you looking it up - and that was perfectly fine right?) at the very most they use containment tactics plastic bullets and tear gas and baton rounds (which don't kill)

Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Firstly I'm not sure which country you think was occupying another in 48. The British left the mandate basically leaving no country.

Secondly according to your Wikipedia link it was the Arab countries that did the invading.

I think you need to brush up on your history a bit.

Thirdly we are talking about Gaza, that's where this trouble is taking place. Get at least some facts right FFS.

drunken monkey - on 15 May 2018
In reply to john arran:

Unless your name is Netanyahu

balmybaldwin - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

Perhaps I do. (I'm confusing the 67 6 day war). However 1948 is the date Palestinians call "al-Nakba", or "the Catastrophe". Up to 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from the land that became Israel, and were never allowed back.

It doesn't change the original point. We are talking about lands that have been occupied for 50+ years.

Last time I checked Jerusalem was partly in the west bank which is what all this is about, I'm sure if they were allowed the protesters would protest there rather than on the outskirts of the Gaza strip

2
Mike Highbury - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> Last time I checked Jerusalem was partly in the west bank which is what all this is about, I'm sure if they were allowed the protesters would protest there rather than on the outskirts of the Gaza strip

This seems to sum up what you know about Israel.

Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to balmybaldwin:

West Bank I'll agree is mainly technically occupied. There are parts that are totally under PA control but they don't make up a viable continuous area.

Gaza isn't occupied, its borders are externally controlled by Israel and Egypt. Calling it a blockade isn't really correct because most of the stuff that goes into Gaza comes from or through Israel. But what goes in is controlled to try and make sure it's not used to attack Israel.

Israel inside the 48 borders is generally accepted by most of the world to not be occupied.

Eastern Jerusalem would probably end up in any future Palestinian state except for the old city. No way that is going to go out of Israeli hands.

Personally, I think Trump should have said that he regarded West Jerusalem as Israel's capital and that East Jerusalem was a "still to be decided" area. But he just said Jerusalem knowing how that would be taken by both sides.

Lastly, after the 48 war, a similar number of Jews were expelled from arab countries and assimilated by Israel. Funnily enough, this tiny country didn't make it into a refugee problem whilst the much bigger Arab countries surrounding Israel did.

Apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.

krikoman - on 15 May 2018
baron - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

Do you need to change the number of jews expelled after 1948 or at least state the time frame in which such 'expulsions' took place?

krikoman - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Gaza isn't occupied, its borders are externally controlled by Israel and Egypt. Calling it a blockade isn't really correct because most of the stuff that goes into Gaza comes from or through Israel. But what goes in is controlled to try and make sure it's not used to attack Israel.

It only get in or out on the whims of Israel though, and there's plenty of evidence of perishable goods wasting before they are allowed  on their journey. Medicines held up until after their expiry date etc. Fishing is limited to certain areas and certain distances from shore.

Water and electricity are rationed by Israel too. It more of a blockade than not, people can't go in or out freely. My local taxi driver couldn't get in because he's been before, so the people he was travelling with had to meet him in Jordan.

 

1
Pan Ron - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Wanderer100:

Is indeed madness.

I've become a bit of a fan of centre/right commentators for their blitz on the radical left.  But they (i.e Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder) consistently let me down when it comes to Israel - they exhibit a shocking double standard and seem to dismiss all manner of Palestinian casualties as entirely acceptable.

1
Ridge - on 15 May 2018
In reply to john arran:

> Fair comment, and as we're only talking hypothetically it's all a bit moot, but I would have thought that even with the potential you describe, police still would wait until it was clear that immediate danger to life and limb of police officers or other personnel was a serious likelihood, and even then the intention would be to incapacitate the assailants where possible rather than shooting to kill.

Just back from a run.

Shooting would be very much a last resort, but unless things have changed 'shooting to incapacitate' isn't very likely, it would be at centre off mass, the rationale being that if the shot goes high, low, left or right it still hits something major.

That makes me think that if the IDF have time to mess about shooting people in the legs and feet then the target's not exactly an imminent threat to them, and was most likely standing still at the time the shot was fired.

I'm under no illusions that if the boot was on the other foot and the Palestinians had access to Israeli levels of firepower then they'd be killing Israeli men, women and kids all over the shop. Just because they're the underdog  doesn't automatically make them the good guys.

That said the IDF are being massively disproportionate in their response, and maiming protestors for shits and giggles is absolutely disgusting behaviour.

Likewise I can well believe some of the dead might well have been armed, and the guns rapidly removed by other protestors, but theres no way 60 odd armed people could attack the border without the IDF taking casualties and media/IDF footage of the attack being released.

All of which leads me to believe the IDF are very much in the wrong here.

Post edited at 22:51
1
TobyA on 15 May 2018
In reply to Ridge:

Weren't there some cases in the early days in Iraq where British troops did face angry/violent crowds and did fire at some point? 

I was told (in Israel coincidentally) by a former Danish officer about how badly things were organised in KFOR when they first arrived. He was trying to 'police' IIRC Mitrovica where local Serbs were rioting and all the soldiers had were their rifles. He got one of his soldiers to look in an industrial area for something they could use as batons and they found some big spool of thick rubber coated cable which they chopped up to make batons! He said that night when the protests became riots it was just like a three hour bar fight, but the Danish troops kept their rifles on their backs and not shots were fired. One of his men had his rifle taken off him when he got beaten down, but it was not used, and the next day when things were calmer a local dignitary drove up to where the Danes had based themselves, apologised, returned the gun and said the Danes now had the respect of the town because they hadn't shot anyone. The Danish KFOR commanders also had put in an urgent call back to Copenhagen and he claimed most local police stations and police training facilities were emptied of riot gear that day, and it was all on a RDAF C-130 heading to Kosovo by evening. Local US troops had taken a different approach to protestors in their sector, they drew a line on the road up to their base, put some troops with a large machine gun behind the line and told protestors to protest away, but if they crossed the line they would die. The Danes didn't agree with this tactic but did say it worked. Maybe we can see the IDF actions as more like the US response.

1
Michael Hood - on 15 May 2018
In reply to baron:

You tell me, I believe the numbers are roughly the same, certainly same order of magnitude, 500,000+

Not exactly sure about timeframe without looking it up but I think if we're including all Arab countries then we're talking about into the early fifties so about a 5 year period.

TobyA on 15 May 2018
In reply to Ridge:

> Likewise I can well believe some of the dead might well have been armed, and the guns rapidly removed by other protestors,

Some weeks back the IDF were releasing video from their cameras of people approaching the border carrying rifles and pistols but it was only a couple of cases. In the last couple of days though I at least haven't seen any such evidence and the border is so well monitored I'm sure they would release such imagery if they had it. I think rather they are relying on the very clear images from Palestinian journalists of young me with sling shots, catapults and now the petrol bomb kites to make the argument that the protestors are "armed". That seems to be enough to convince the usual suspects, particularly in the US, that the IDF shooting people in Gaza through the fence is "proportionate" but doesn't seem to be convincing many others around the world. The significant number of people being shot in lower limbs (source: A British surgeon working for the ICRC in Khan Younis interviewed on R4 PM today) seems to suggest even IDF high command isn't completely convinced that killing Gazans in Gaza is a great idea, even if only for reasons of PR - presumably they could have killed a lot more people if they had wanted to.

> but theres no way 60 odd armed people could attack the border without the IDF taking casualties

Having been to the border fence I'm not convinced of this. Despite lots of people living in Gaza there are wide areas of flat pretty empty agricultural land particularly along the long N-S border and the IDF has drones, balloons, sensor etc. all along. Getting anywhere close to the border without being seen is very tough, so Israel has a huge advantage. Back a decade ago when rockets were the big problem, the IDF got very good at killing rocket teams and they didn't come anywhere close to the fence.

 

baron - on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

You can google the number of Jews expelled and the length of time over which such expulsions took place.

Then the differences between Arab and Jewish expulsions becomes obvious and goes some way to explain why many Arabs remain as refugees while most Jews do not.

1
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 15 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Yes, but that was a short term response to an acute situation, and afterwards the Americans could go home, to another continent 

 

the Israelis are already home. It’s their neighbours they are shooting. These people will be their neighbours forever. They aren’t going to forget this.

 

If the British government had taken the US approach and followed up Bloody Sunday with another 30 years of live fire as crowd control, it strikes me as unlikely that we would have peace in the province, or on the streets of mainland U.K. 

unless israel wants to live under siege in perpetuity, and hope that the US is willing and able to guarantee its security, then it strikes me the Danish approach would have been better. Though it is probably too late for that now, sadly. 

 

1
TobyA on 15 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

850,000 seems to be the number commonly cited. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

48-51 the major wave but more over the next decades at times of crisis, up to 79 with Iranian Jews being expelled.

Ridge - on 15 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Iraq was after my brief time in green, but IIRC Iraq was a very different situation to peacekeeping, with some very full on exchages of fire, including a bayonet charge at Danny Boy:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Danny_Boy

Interesting to note the £31 million enquiry into unsubstantiated allegations, plus Phil Shiner and his leeches trying it on. I can't see the Israelis instigating anything similar.

In Bosnia the Czechs were far more hardline than the Americans, but a lot depended on how hostile the locals were.

The Americans weren't popular as they patrolled as if there was a war on, helmets, body armour, pointing guns at the locals etc. We were more likely to be seen loading crates of beer into the back of a landrover.

Obviously different ways of doing things in a different situation, but even the Americans managed to avoid mowing down stone throwing kids.

 

Post edited at 23:47
TobyA on 15 May 2018
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I wasn't really comparing the situations as they are so different, more following on from John and Ridge's discussions over what British police or soldiers would do. I think Bloody Sunday is good to remember though, that any army trying to do police work can make a horrific mess of it.

I don't think anyone on either side is forgetting anything, which is why there is so little hope.

I totally understand why Gazans are so angry but I don't understand what they think these protests will do? Nonviolent protests don't always work and violent uprisings sometimes do, but their violence is so ineffectual what's the point? Even getting yourself martyred doesn't seem to help much now, the rest of the Arab and wider Muslim world are as interested anymore and are ineffectual when they are. I don't think non-violent protest will necessarily work, but would it be any worse than the current protests?

1
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 15 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

There was an article linked which seemed to ring true to me- 60%+ youth unemployment, no hope of their lives improving, and watching settlements gradually erode what’s left of land they consider theirs, while the world seems to look on and do nothing, or even say they are to blame 

 

add in that a desire to resist what is seen as oppression, even at the ultimate cost,  seems to be hard wired into humans, and I don’t find it surprising that Palestinians act as they do.

 

and i do wonder if Hamas’ plan is to provoke the Israelis into such egregious acts of violence that they will lose support from western backers; and indeed I wonder if this is already happening. If so, it baffles and dismays me that Israel doesn’t appear to recognise the risk it faces, in what is a long, long game. 

 

I cant see how this ends well for any of the players, or indeed ends at all. 

Wicamoi on 16 May 2018
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Of course I agree with your post, but it overlooks something crucial. If the UK government didn't follow up Bloody Sunday with Bloody Week and Bloody Years it was because it was in a position of power. It was fighting a small terrorist group. Bombs went off in Ireland and on the mainland, it was vile and bloody and people died, lives were ruined and forgiveness was very hard on both sides, but the UK was not under existential threat. Israel is.

So of course the IDF fight harder, they fight with the fear of losing everything, not just their lives, but their homeland, their future, their children. The Danes behaved very well, and I am proud for them, but they were not fighting in the same psychological context. Brits, Danes, Israelis, Palestinians: we're all human.

I do not excuse the IDF of this latest outrage, far less justify them, but I think the expectation of holding up the Israeli government to the standards of western democracy is unrealistic and hypocritical. If a western democracy such as the UK was surrounded by enemies and feeling, justifiably, doomed, how would our troops behave? No better than the IDF is my guess. Our troops would fight tooth and nail, and the folks back home in the shires would cheer them on - keeping the homefires burning and thankful for the strength in their soldiers. And wake up the next day, wondering how much longer their homeland will survive.

To solve this we need peacemakers - and that includes all of us. Taking sides just fuels the conflict. However right you think you are, if you are blaming the other side you aren't approaching a solution: you're a football supporter taunting the opposing teams fans. And this game is a hundred years - two thousand years - of humans wasting their lives: fighting, dying young, leaving motherless children. 

So we should all shut the f*ck up with our recriminations, shut the f*ck up with our blame, hypocrisy and self-justification and start trying to understand each other. 

 

1
Ridge - on 16 May 2018
In reply to Wicamoi:

> Of course I agree with your post, but it overlooks something crucial. If the UK government didn't follow up Bloody Sunday with Bloody Week and Bloody Years it was because it was in a position of power. It was fighting a small terrorist group. Bombs went off in Ireland and on the mainland, it was vile and bloody and people died, lives were ruined and forgiveness was very hard on both sides, but the UK was not under existential threat. Israel is.

I agree Israel is surrounded by enemies that want it's total destruction, but at present it is in a position of power. Hamas is currently less of a threat to Israel than PIRA was to the UK, and if attacked the IDF have far more relaxed rules of engagement. I don't think anyone would object about the IDF obliterating a Hamas rocket team in a drone strike.

> So of course the IDF fight harder, they fight with the fear of losing everything, not just their lives, but their homeland, their future, their children. The Danes behaved very well, and I am proud for them, but they were not fighting in the same psychological context. Brits, Danes, Israelis, Palestinians: we're all human.

I agree to an extent, but it seems likely here that they weren't actually 'fighting' anyone.

> I do not excuse the IDF of this latest outrage, far less justify them, but I think the expectation of holding up the Israeli government to the standards of western democracy is unrealistic and hypocritical. If a western democracy such as the UK was surrounded by enemies and feeling, justifiably, doomed, how would our troops behave? No better than the IDF is my guess. Our troops would fight tooth and nail, and the folks back home in the shires would cheer them on - keeping the homefires burning and thankful for the strength in their soldiers. And wake up the next day, wondering how much longer their homeland will survive.

I don't think this has anything to do with the troops personal feelings. This isn't a few random IDF blokes settling scores after finding their mates body parts hanging from trees, it is Israeli government policy. You'd think that in a country heavily reliant on foreign support and military aid someone would have twigged that alienating world opinion is only hastening the destruction of Israel.

> To solve this we need peacemakers - and that includes all of us. Taking sides just fuels the conflict. However right you think you are, if you are blaming the other side you aren't approaching a solution: you're a football supporter taunting the opposing teams fans. And this game is a hundred years - two thousand years - of humans wasting their lives: fighting, dying young, leaving motherless children. 

With a few exceptions very few people on this thread seem to be cheering any side on. As for being peacemakers, well, good luck with that one.

> So we should all shut the f*ck up with our recriminations, shut the f*ck up with our blame, hypocrisy and self-justification and start trying to understand each other. 

I think I understand humanity reasonably well, which doesn't give me much hope for that part of the world.

john arran - on 16 May 2018
In reply to Ridge:

It seems we are in agreement.

krikoman - on 16 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> I totally understand why Gazans are so angry but I don't understand what they think these protests will do?

They are making sure you and everyone else don't forget what's been done to them. Even with all this shit, it'll be forgotten next week and everyone will move on.

What would you do if you lived in Gaza, simply keep you head down and get on with it (what ever it might be, since opportunities are severely limited).

I know where I'd be if I lived there, I'd just make sure I was at the back.

 

1
krikoman - on 16 May 2018
In reply to Wicamoi:

> I do not excuse the IDF of this latest outrage, far less justify them, but I think the expectation of holding up the Israeli government to the standards of western democracy is unrealistic and hypocritical.

But that's exactly what Israel want us to do, when it suits them, when they are talking about how inclusive their democracy is and how free from prejudice the country is, "look we have gays".

So who's the hypocrite?

 

krikoman - on 16 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> I totally understand why Gazans are so angry but I don't understand what they think these protests will do?

 

Sorry thinking about this even more, wouldn't that have been true for Martin Luther King, and the anti-apartheid movement.

Any how, here's an explanation for you

http://mondoweiss.net/2018/05/palestinian-explain-joined/

TobyA on 16 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

My point is I don't understand how they are protesting, as it's clearly causing no cost to Israel. Why they are protesting is quite obvious.

This article suggests this is Gaza-specific and has become essentially nihilistic, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-why-the-west-bank-is-so-quiet-when-blood-is-flowing-in-gaza-1.6093230 this seems quite understandable, but the original intention of the March of Return was non-violent and non-confrontational. Perhaps if they had just danced and played footy 300 mtrs back from the fence it wouldn't have had any effect. But are these protests having any effect? The Israeli govt. boosters in the US and elsewhere witter on about Hamas leading people to the slaughter and support Israeli tactics of shooting rioters. But the rioters are achieving nothing beyond becoming 'shaheed', but beyond Gaza even that doesn't seem to mean much currently.

Michael Hood - on 16 May 2018
In reply to TobyA: I was glad to see that some in Israel are challenging the IDF's rules of engagement in the courts. If that succeeds then this unnecessary loss of life may be avoided in future.

At the moment, I haven't seen any evidence that most impartial observers would take as justification for the level of force used.

One interesting stat, apparently there were approx 5000 injuries of which 1700 were gunshot wounds. What were the other 3000+?

 

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 16 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> My point is I don't understand how they are protesting, as it's clearly causing no cost to Israel. Why they are protesting is quite obvious.

> This article suggests this is Gaza-specific and has become essentially nihilistic, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-why-the-west-bank-is-so-quiet-when-blood-is-flowing-in-gaza-1.6093230 this seems quite understandable, but the original intention of the March of Return was non-violent and non-confrontational. Perhaps if they had just danced and played footy 300 mtrs back from the fence it wouldn't have had any effect. But are these protests having any effect? The Israeli govt. boosters in the US and elsewhere witter on about Hamas leading people to the slaughter and support Israeli tactics of shooting rioters. But the rioters are achieving nothing beyond becoming 'shaheed', but beyond Gaza even that doesn't seem to mean much currently.

I’m not so sure. I would be interested to see what public opinion across Europe and America is in relation to Israel and its approach to the situation. My impression is that Israel is losing support, with its actions more readily being seen as at best disproportionate, at worst (wrongly) genocidal. Currently the political classes continue to support Israel; but as Brexit showed, being on the wrong side of the electorate isn’t something that politicians can sustain, if the electorate decides the issue matters to them.

Will a tipping point be reached, and revulsion at Israel’s actions reach a level that politicians are forced to drop support for Israel? It seems unlikely in the short term. But this isn’t going to go away: Palestinians have shown they are sufficiently desperate that they are prepared to die in large numbers; Israel seems progressively more indifferent to inflicting mass casualties in ever less justifiable circumstances, and to place ever less value on Palestinian lives; settlement building seems set to continue, making the prospect there being a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank ever less likely, fuelling the despair and anger of a Palestinian youths who are being offered no alternative; and accelerating the tailspin into violence. 

 

And all of this played out in front of the worlds media.

 

In these circumstances, I don’t think it’s impossible that support for Israel will become so corroded that becomes an electoral liability for politicians in Europe in particular, and maybe even America- if there is a backlash against Trump at some point down the line, the causes he promoted may find themselves tarnished by association and alternative narratives may find more receptive ears. 

 

And if that ever happens, the consequences for Israel would be catastrophic.

 

i think that Hamas are aware this is as much a battle for the narrative and public opinion across the world as it is for land in the here and now; and that scenes of Israeli troops shooting women and children is propaganda dynamite. There very much is a cost to the reputation of Israel. And I worries me that the Israeli government seem blind to this, or complacent that the support they have now will never change. 

The New NickB - on 16 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

Tear-gas and water-cannon. 1700 gunshot wounds is a terrifying figure.

Michael Hood - on 16 May 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

Assuming that 1700 is correct, it's coming from sniper fire which means single shot. That seems like rather a lot of shots, even assuming they all hit.

Even if 95% of those were legitimate targets (I'm not saying they were or weren't, just plucking a figure out of the air to illustrate), that means 5% collateral damage which means 85 "innocents" shot.

And I think many would say 95% is too high.

 

TobyA on 16 May 2018
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I see your point, but I don't think there is much support for Israel in, say, much of Europe anyway, and I mean at governmental levels, not just among populations. Amongst the 'new right' strong men of Eastern Europe maybe, but even their shared Islamophobia doesn't completely trump much old antisemitism - take Jobbik as a case in point.

Trump literally seems to like anyone who will kiss his arse so after seeming completely oblivious to the realities of the Middle East, now loves Israel because they say they love him. I suspect it really isn't much deeper than that, although I'm sure he has realised by now that the more he defends Israel's actions, the more it winds up "liberals" in the US, and that's gotta be another great reason to keep doing it.

I think what is really important and not paid much attention here is that the strategic alignment between Saudia Arabia and Israel means that there's been surprisingly little reactions to the Gaza killings elsewhere in the Sunni middle east. As long as the IDF keep bombing the hell out Revolutionary Guard (and Hezbollah) facilities in Syria, Saudi Arabia isn't going to make a fuss about a few dozen Gazans getting killed. We also tend to ignore Israel's good relations with Russia, China and India - all countries that aren't going to complain about Israel 'defending its borders' and none of which are strangers to the idea of shooting people who don't agree with you anyway.

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 16 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Points taken; and I wasn’t aware of China being a supporter of Israel- but it’s certainly relevant if that’s the case 

 

so unlikely they will lose support enough to jeopardise the continued existence of the country in the medium term then. I still think it’s a counterproductive strategy though; forever is a long time, and they are creating grudges that will last long enough to test out how durable alliances are...

 

 

edit: just a thought- Russia is an ally of Iran; and Iran is engaged in a proxy war with S Arabia; so if Israel is actively targeting Iranian forces in Syria, is that not putting a strain on any ties it has with Russia? 

 

or is it even more complicated than that....?

Post edited at 23:39
krikoman - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Assuming that 1700 is correct, it's coming from sniper fire which means single shot. That seems like rather a lot of shots, even assuming they all hit.

 

A lot of the injuries are supposedly from smaller arms fire,( I can't find the link ) but they's been hit with "special" bullets that break up and cause massive bone damage.

Interestingly it was noted yesterday a well equipped British hospital couldn't cope with the number of casualties they're dealing with in Gaza, with their one poorly equipped and short on supplies hospital.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.4663685/canadian-shot-in-gaza-says-he-was-clearly-marked-as-a-doctor-1.4663689

 

http://www.msf.org/en/article/palestine-msf-teams-gaza-observe-unusually-severe-and-devastating-gunshot-injuries

Post edited at 09:26
TobyA on 17 May 2018
In reply to krikoman:

They are clearly very poorly supplied, but there are a lot more than just one hospital in Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hospitals_in_the_Palestinian_territories#Hospitals_in_the_Gaza_Strip

The British surgeon who is working for the ICRC interviewed on R4 the other night was working at the European Hospital and noted its a lot smaller Shifa. He also listed many many things that you take for granted in a UK hospital that they simply don't have there. He talked about constant improvisation, but also noted that local teams, doctors and nurses, were superb and very highly skilled.

krikoman - on 18 May 2018
In reply to TobyA:

You right, I do apologise. Must check before posting

 

Cheers

krikoman - on 18 May 2018
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Assuming that 1700 is correct, it's coming from sniper fire which means single shot. That seems like rather a lot of shots, even assuming they all hit.

> And I think many would say 95% is too high.

 

https://www.facebook.com/142202379163151/videos/1923814291001942/

 

krikoman - on 20 May 2018
In reply to thomasadixon:

> It's certainly very one sided.  The protests didn't start, or happen, because of Trump's decision, they would've happened anyway.  The Palestinians are attacking the fence, they are using violence, these aren't peaceful protests.  They do want to destroy Israel (not that they've got much chance of succeeding). 

What if they simply wanted to break out of their prison, not attack Israel or Israelis, simply to break out of their prison camp and live normal lives?


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