UKC

..apart from vowels, of course

youtube.com/watch?v=n9uMJovuA_Y&

In reply to thin bob: thats pathetic. a lot of generalisations about the English! typical welshies!

In reply to thin bob:

They need another one for the differences between Gogs and Wenglish...

In reply to higherclimbingwales: what is the welsh for 'Welsh'? Cymraeg? Cymrish?

In reply to thin bob:

Depends what you are referring to and how polite you are being, Cymraeg is the usual, eg. mae o'n cymraeg, (he is Welsh) or you can abbreviate to cymro.

I haven't spoken welsh for about 10 years and the language changes from place to place so don't quote me on this.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I actually thought it was quite true as well as being funny, but there again I am Welsh and have a sense of humour. ;¬)

In reply to thin bob:

Well it certainly isn't Cymrish. The answer is multi faceted and depends on context.

Welsh (as in language) = Cymraeg

Welshness = Cymreicdod

Welsh (as in people) = Cymry (not to be confused with Cymru = Wales)

Welshman = Cymro

Welshwoman = Cymraes

The word Cymry is believed to come from the Brythonic word "combrogi", meaning fellow-countrymen, and so the name of the country - Cymru - carries a sense of fraternity, i.e. "land of fellow-countrymen" or "our country". The pronounciation of both "Cymry" and "Cymru" is exactly the same. The name "Wales", however, comes from the Germanic "walha", meaning "stranger" or "foreigner". This word was particularly used to refer to peoples who had been under the long-term influence of Roman language and culture. Obviously the word "Welsh" makes no such distinction between either the language or people.

Hope this all makes sense!

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams: cheers Dave, excellent answer!
as for politeness.....i need to know both

In reply to Dave Williams:

I was going to write the bit about the word Cymry: the only thing I could add is that I think "Cumbria" shares the same root.

Y.

In reply to thin bob:
Coming from just inside the border we had a sort of different language called
Cymlish

which was a mixture of Welsh and English words by just putting "io"on the end of an English word ie

Welsh for to build is "Adeiladu"

but we would say "buildio"

sort of cheating Welsh lol

In reply to Gazlynn: i am *SO* gonna use that....

In reply to thin bob: Hilarious! It also explains why when I order food in the rest of England they don't know what I'm on about. Didn't realise I've been speaking welsh.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Yes, you're completley correct. At one time it is thought that a form of early Welsh was extensively spoken both in Northern England and Southern Scotland. The language is called the Cumbric language and there's some consensus that it was in fact a form of Welsh dialect rather than a different language such as Manx, Cornish or Breton which share the same root Brythonic language as Welsh but are not derived from it. (Cornish and Breton have around an 85% shared vocabulary compared to around 60% with Welsh.)

But Cumbric and Welsh are thought to be very similar. "Yan", "Tyan", "Tetherie", "Peddera" etc. which are still used for sheep counting in Cumbria are the Cymbric equivalent of "un", "dau", "tri", "pedwar" in Welsh (i.e. one, two, three, four). Cumbric is thought to have spread southwards from the Strathclyde area (where early Welsh was apparently extensively spoken) into what is now Cumbria and Yorkshire. The Scottish surname Wallace apparently means 'Welshman'. Further clues are given by modern placenames and here's a few that come to mind:

* Glasgow - from "glas gae", Welsh for green field or green hollow

* Blencathra - from "blaen cadair" = seat shaped summit.(The mountain actually looks like a huge seat from the south.)

* Bryn, common in Lancashire from "bryn", meaning hill

* Culcheth (Cheshire), from "cul coed" = narrow wood

* Helvellyn - from "hal felyn" = yellow moor

* Lanark - from "llannerch" = a grove

* Penrith - from "Pen rhudd" = red hill. (Red Pike is the modern name of the hill above the town.)

* Pen-y-Ghent - from "pen" = hill and ghent, possibly from the Welsh "gwynt" - 'Hill of The Winds'

* Renfrew - from the Welsh "rhyn-ffrwd" = a torrent by the narrows

Last year a group of enthusiasts proposed a revial of Cumbric, calling the language "Cwmbraic". Since then they've been working on reconstructing the "forgotten" language of Cumbria.

Fascinating stuff IMHO.


Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

Dave you seem to know your onions a little on this subject.
Can you enlighten me on a couple of things?

I was told up here in Scotland that William Wallaces grandmother was Welsh?

Where I live now there are lots of place name with the word Kenneth in them i.e Cambuskenneth.

Someone told me that Kenneth was a lord of the area and escaped down to Wales and was prominent down there hence the county name Gwynedd??

cheers

In reply to Gazlynn:

Wedi gwario gormod o amser yn astudio Hanes Cymru yn yr Oesoedd Canol! Trist iawn i ddweud y gwir .....


Quite possible. It's thought that all the Wallaces originated as medieval immigrants from Wales, but given that the name was also used for local Strathclyde Welsh/ Cumbric speakers it's possibly more likely that 'Wallace' refers to people who were seen as being “Welsh” due to their Cumbric language.

Surnames in Scotland were not inherited from one's fathers before 1200 and we know that Wallace killed the high sheriff of Lanark in 1297. So, even if he had inherited the surname from his father, it's very possible that his family spoke Cumbric within living memory (at that time) in order to be so named.


Again, this is probably correct if we accept that Kenneth is derived from the Cumbric name "Cunedda". A 10th or 11th century chronicler (whose name escapes me at the mo) attributed Gwynedd's foundation as a medieval Welsh kingdom to Cunedda who migrated to North Wales with his family and other followers from Lothian in or around the 5th century AD.


Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

Dwi ddim yn meddwl fod o'n drist o gwbl. Mae'r pwnc yn un diddorol iawn. Diolch

Thanks Dave very interesting

In reply to Dave Williams:

Great thread! I've nothing to contribute but it makes for good reading

Tapadh Leibh!

In reply to Dave Williams:

So it is quite feasible that people living in the Stirling area in the 1200s spoke some sort of Welsh / Cumbric?

In reply to Dave Williams:

"Kenneth" in the the Scottish context, generally comes from the Gaelic Coinneach

In reply to Dave Williams:

I've seen this in a number of places, and it's always struck me as wrong. I am no expert in any way shape or form, but I'd argue that the 'llyn' part should play a role in the meaning of the name especially since this gives the hill's most distinctive aspect, seen looming over Red Tarn.

Thoughts welcome...

T.

In reply to Gazlynn:

As I recall Cumbric, as a community language, is thought to have survived into the mid 12th Century and perhaps even lasted into the 13th century in minority usage amongst the few remaining speakers. Looking at what's known to have happened elsewhere when Anglicisation of native Celtic peoples is concerned historically, it's likely that the peasants (or "y werin" in Welsh) carried on speaking Cumbric for at least a little while after the upper classes would have given up speaking it.

Whether it was still in common usage in the Stirling area at this time is debatable. Most linguists believe that it became extinct in the 12th century, around the time when the semi-independent (and up to then quite politically dominant) Kingdom of Strathclyde was incorporated into the Kingdom of Scotland. But it certainly was probably still in quite common usage further south along the border as well as in Cumbria itself. In the late 1200s a monk called Robert Mynoc is recorded as living in a priory near Carlisle. 'Mynoc' is very similar to Welsh "mynach" - meaning monk - so he'd have been "Robert the Monk".

Most linguists seem to agree that the Cumbric language died out in the late 13th century and it's been speculated that the Black Death may have been ultimately responsible for eradicating the last of the Cumbric speakers, as well as many others.

Dave

In reply to Donald M:

Ah, thanks for pointing this out. I've done a bit of quick research and on the origin of personal names and I quote:

"KENNETH is an anglicized (Scots) form of either the Pictish name Ciniod or the Goidelic name Cináed, often thought to mean "fire-head" or "born of fire" (see Áed), but ultimately derives from a shared prototype with Kennedy; Cunedagius, originally Cornish (then indistinct from other Brythonic languages)--after which was carried north to Valentia and borne by Cunedda (Latin Cunetacius), founder of Gwynedd.

Similar names have also been anglicized as Kenneth, including the Gaelic Coinneach ("handsome one"; eg Cainnech of Aghaboe) and the Old English Cyneath, which may mean "royal oath"

Cheers

Dave

In reply to Gazlynn:


Ges I ei anfon allan of gwersi hanes arol i fi taflu fy llyfr at yr athrawes unwaith. Arol hynni ges i gwersi technoleg gwybodaeth yn ei lle.

gethin.

In reply to thin bob: Strewth!! will you people pack the lurve in & get back to p1sstaking?


actually, carry on, it's interesting

In reply to thin bob: Strewth!! will you people pack the lurve in & get back to p1sstaking?


actually, carry on, it's interesting

[bet you've all got spit on your screens reading it out though ]

In reply to gethin_allen:

Haha. Pa lyfr? Nid y Beibl, gobeithio

In reply to shingsowa:

>> The differences are obvious. The Gogs are people who live in the Gog Magog hills near Cambridge. (Hills near Cambridge?)
Wenglish is the English spoken by Arsene Wenger.

In reply to pyle:

Actually it is

Gogs for North Wales from the word Gogledd (welsh for north)

Hwntws for South Wales. I havn't a clue on that one.

Any suggestions for a Welsh translation for Vuvuzelas?

Fwfwsela

In reply to NickD:

Da Iawn

In reply to Pursued by a bear:
>

Seems as logical an explanation as 'yellow moor', if not more so.

Dave

In reply to Gazlynn:

Kenneth is a popular name in Scandanavia also. Did the Vikings take it from Welsh or vice versa? There is a very strong linguistic link between old Norse & the Cumbrian dialect, which no-one has mentioned.
I was taught that there was a kingdom of Strathclyde which stretched from Glasgow to north Wales. A Celtic kingdom. Cumbria was laid to waste in the 9th or 10th century by an English king (I forget his name) who then gave Cumbria to the king of Scotland (David?) After that the link between Wales & Strathclyde seems to have been broken, probably by the Normans. The Normans however were not yet in charge of Cumbria. Cumbria doesn't even appear in the Magna Carta. I expect they were afraid of the Reivers.

In reply to NickD:

Ha, ha, ha. Ardderchog!

In reply to thin bob:

Jeez by reading this thread you will be the font of all knowledge when you visit Wales next m8

In reply to pyle:

Yes, once Celtic Cumbria was annexed by English Northumbria (8th C?), Old English began to be spoken in parts, although evidence suggests Cumbric survived in central regions in some form until at least the 11th century. But I agree that the Norse influence has had a far more pronounced influence on the modern Celtic dialect. This was brought to Cumbria by a huge number of Norwegian settlers who came there, probably as early as the 10th century, by means of both the IoM and Ireland.

While there are a fair number of Celtic derived place names in Cumbria, the majority of place names are of Old Norse origin - eg Kendal from "Kent dalr" or valley of the River Kent. Many of the traditional dialect words are also remnants of Old Norse eg. beck - from "bekkr" = stream. 'Fells' and 'dales' are also of Norse origin.

Old Norse is thought to have survived in Cumbria until fairly late, possibly as late as the 13th century. But once the Cumbrian people had assimilated to speaking English, there were few further influences on the dialect. In the Middle Ages, much of Cumbria frequently swapped hands between England and Scotland but linguists think that this had little effect on the language then spoken.

Interestingly, it was English Northumbria that was also responsible for severing the land connection between the Welsh/ Cumbric speaking areas of Strathclyde and those of Wales when they defeated the Celts at the Battle of Chester in 616 AD. After this hard fought Northumbrian conquest of Cheshire, the English assimilation of Cheshire took place, and any further connection between the Kingdom of Strathclyde and Wales would have been by sea. English territorial expansionism aided and by the difficulties of maintaining a regular maritime connection gradually led to the increasing isolation of the northern Cumbric speaking areas.

Significantly, in 1305, Edward I (of England) prohibited the laws of the 'Scots and the Brets', 'Brets' being the English word used at the time to refer to the native, traditionally Cumbric speaking people of southern Scotland. This led to a further rapid decline in any remaining Celtic influence.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:



Tut, tut, tut .... Sorry, modern CUMBRIAN dialect, not Celtic dialect.

In reply to Dave Williams:

I take it you've read Y Gododdin, the seventh century Welsh poem written in Glasgow.

And you knew that they'd found the Saxons' battle pit from the Battle of Chester (Heronbridge) about five years back.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

My mistake, Y Gododdin was written in Edinburgh

In reply to Yrmenlaf:


I have read it.
It's a pretty strange feeling understanding a language and something that was written in the 7th century although I don't understand all of it.

In reply to thin bob:

I love this thread :-D

In reply to welshgemma: Diloch, Cymro (?)

In reply to Dave Williams:

>> Old Norse is thought to have survived in Cumbria until fairly late, possibly as late as the 13th century. But once the Cumbrian people had assimilated to speaking English, there were few further influences on the dialect.

True, but the Cumbrian dialect has survived up until today, which suggests that if there were few further influences after the 13th century that the dialect has survived, at least to some extent, since then.
Are words like:-
Scoppy = chaffinch
Sneck = latch
Coppy = stool
Lowp = jump
Yat = gate
Cuddy = donkey
Scopp = throw
Bray = beat up & so many more, Norse or Welsh?
To give you an example, if you want to translate this Cumbrian sentence "I scopped a coppy at that scoppy" into English, it means " I threw a stool at that chaffinch"
Is that Welsh, Norse or a mixture.

In reply to thin bob:

Cymraes ffs u no reading the thread

In reply to Gazlynn: Nah! Cymro is female, innit?

In reply to Gazlynn: oooo, cock! it *is* Cymraes ...
sorry Gemma!

nothing personal. but i've been in pubs in merthyr where it's difficult to tell....

In reply to Dave Williams:

In reply to thin bob:


Ahhhh I can understand the confusion now.

In reply to Gazlynn:
Hwnt means 'beyond' (I think) - the South Walians were/are regarded as just.. beyond..

In reply to thin bob:

ydw

In reply to thin bob:

haha no offence, as we say in swansea..... merthyr where the women are men and the sheep are scared?!

In reply to welshgemma:

you're probably expecting this......but WTF is YDW?!?!

In reply to thin bob:

yes i am!

In reply to welshgemma: ....and the visiting english boyfriends are hidden & smuggled in & out in the dark!!!

In reply to welshgemma: fair enough mate! does Tenby *really * count as wales?.....i just need to wind someone up a *teeny* bit

In reply to thin bob:

I think there may be a few too many englishmen with second homes down there for it to really be welsh?!.....although it is home to the legedary oakwood! wales' only theme park and home of the tea tray water slide!

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Well, I don't know if 'read' is the right word but I certainly did study it once many years ago! As I recall, it's written in an odd mixture of Old and Middle Welsh, neither of which bear much relationship to Modern Welsh. Old Welsh contains quite a bit of Latin and is basically gobbldygook to a modern Welsh speaker. There's a gravestone in a church not far from where I live which has an Old Welsh inscription on it and it may as well be in Chinese for all the sense it makes. Middle Welsh is a little more like modern Welsh and is a bit easier to follow. I also remember being told that this poem probably predates anything similar originating from Wales itself by at least 200 years. Incredible stuff really.


No, I didn't know this. So what was actually found?

This battle was a total massacre as far as the Welsh were concerned and it seems that they were tactically outclassed by the Saxons who were led by Aethelfrith, the King of Northumbria. As a very effective diversionary tactic, over 1000 monks at a monastery near Wrexham were slaughtered before the Saxons' main attack which led to the total defeat of the Kingdom of Powys' forces.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Sorry to go off on a tangent here but why historically has the Welsh language survived a lot better than Scots Gaelic? I used to think it was the hills that saved the welsh language as it is mainly spoken in the North but there again the Scottish have bigger hills and more room to hide. So that's my theory blown out of the water.

In reply to thin bob:

Geographically in Wales but culturally and linguistically no, and hasn't been for nearly seven centuries, so you need to think of something else as a wind up!! ;¬)

Southern Pembroke has long been known as "Little England Beyond Wales" and is deliniated from the Welsh speaking North by the Landsker line, the position of which has hardly changed since the 1300s. The local S. Pembs dialect today bears no resemblance to Anglo-Welsh dialect found in other parts of South Wales, which is basically a case of speaking English following Welsh grammatical rules. Eg "Welsh, I am" which exactly translates as "Cymro/ Cymraes ydw i".

Dave

In reply to Gazlynn:

I can't comment on Scots Gaelic but the survival of the Welsh language has been nothing less than a miracle really, living cheek to cheek with such a powerful language as English as it has since the Welsh were finally defeated at the Battle of Chester in 616 AD.

See http://www.britannia.com/celtic/wales/eighthwonder/wonder2.html
(Very long-winded but worth persevering with IMO.)

Makes me realise how extremely lucky I am to still be speaking Welsh in the 21st century!

My gut instinct would be to speculate that Scots Gaelic wasn't as resilient because the Scottish pesantry chose to speak English instead of Gaelic, something that didn't really happen in most of rural Wales. My maternal grandmother, born in rural west Wales at the end of the 19th century, was a virtually monoglot Welsh speaker. She could only say a few simple phrases in English and had almost no understanding of English and this was quite common as far as her generation was concerned.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:
>
They found a temporary fortification (three sides earthwork, one side river), with a pit (the extent of the pit was defined by non-invasive techniques). They opened up about 10% of the pit, and identified 21 skeletons, with no grave good, laid neatly in overlapping lines - like roof tiles. The skeletons were articulate, implying they had been interred shortly after death.

They only removed two of the skeletons (but thought they were all male): one was a young man of about 20, the other older than 35. The older man had an old wound to the skull, consistent with an injury from a "sharp, heavy object": this wound had healed. He also had major tooth decay. Both men were well muscled.

I can't remember which of the two men, but one of them had five fresh wounds to the skull (again consistant with injury from a "sharp heavy object"). Four of these were such that any one of them would have killed him outright. The fifth was consistent with the man's ear being chopped off: there are records of the Welsh going into battle wearing a necklace of the ears of their slain enemies. This individual also had a wound to his hand.

I was in a room full of archeaolgists when the 'photo of this poor bloke's skull was shown: I have never heard such a collective gasp of disbelief at the extent of his injuries.

They did isotopic analysis of the teeth of both skulls, and concluded that they spent their childhood (i.e. grew adult teeth) near Bamburgh.

So it wasn't such a whitewash of the British. The texts say that the Saxons won the battle, and the king of Powys (Selyf ap Cynan - might have spelled him wrong) was killed, but the English losses were so severe that they were unable to continue the invasion. In fact, I've heard it argued (but I'm not convinced) that the reason Rædwald Wuffing was able to conquer Northumberland so easily is that the Northumbrians had hardly any army left!

Y.

In reply to Gazlynn:

I'm always amused (is that the correct word?) by the three peaks of Yorkshire.

Penygent has a very distinctive shape, and has kept its British name

Inglebrough has a fairly distinctive shape, and has lost its British name and acquired a Saxon name.

Whernside is a shapeless lump, and has a norse name.

Seems to me a fairly good rule of thumb that prominent landscape features retain old names well.

Y.

In reply to Dave Williams:
I don't think the battle of Chester was anything like that decisive; its one of my bugbears that people read dark ages history as "the Kingdom of the Saxons fought the Kingdom of the British (aided and abetted by Arthur)"

In fact, "Saxons" and "British" were both multiple kingdoms, and would forge alliances with whoever was convenient. Obviously, its easier to forge an alliance when you share a language and culture, but by about 631AD a Welsh king (Cadwaller - there's umpteen spellings in Bede and Nennius) formed an alliance with a (Saxon) Mercian King (Penda) and overran Northumberland.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Wow! Thanks for all the info. Fascinating stuff.

As for the Battle of Chester, the blood-letting on both sides was as you described and has been well documented by both Saxon and Welsh chroniclers. However, as far as the Welsh was concerned they had given their all and had lost, in spite of the huge losses they'd inflicted on the Saxon side. The massive Welsh losses, combined with King Selyf's death, as well as probably that of King Iago of the Kingdom of Gwynedd, meant that the fight against the Saxons was taken out of the Welsh by this battle and resistance rapidly waned afterwards. To all intents and purposes this battle marked the final and conclusive defeat of the Welsh by the Saxons.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

So quoting Bede:

"Then the British king Cadwalla [son of Cadfan, king of Gwynnedd] rebelled against him...in a fierce battle on the field called Hæþfelþ, on the twelfth of October 633, when he [Edwin, the Northumbrian king] and his entire army killed or scattered...At this time a terrible slaughter took place amongst the Northumbrian Church and nation...Cadwalla, although he professed to call himself a Christian was utterly barbarous in temperament and behaviour. He set about exterminating the entire English race in Britain, and spared neither women nor innocent children, putting them all to hoorible deaths with ruthless savagery, and continuously ravishing the whole country"

(Bede of Jarrow, Eccelsiastical History of the English, book 2 chapter 20: I use DH Farmer's translation: bits in square bracket are my additions)

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

On that thought, I shall go to bed! Sleep well

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

You might find this interesting:

http://www.chesterarchaeolsoc.org.uk/heronbridge.html

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

I agree, but I have always understood that it was the last major battle between Welsh and the Saxon forces though.


This was always a problem with the Welsh Kingdoms. They fought as much with each other as they did against the Saxons, let alone any number of raiding trips across the Irish sea. As you correctly say it wasn't simply a straightforward conflict between the Saxons and the Welsh. The Welsh also gained a reputation as being soldiers of fortune, as illustrated later by Welsh archers fighting as mercenaries on the French side at Agincourt. I don't know whether this was so as early as the 600s AD though.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:
My maternal grandmother, born in rural west Wales at the end of the 19th century, was a virtually monoglot Welsh speaker. She could only say a few simple phrases in English and had almost no understanding of English and this was quite common as far as her generation was concerned.


My Taid (grandfather) also couldn't speak English very well at all!
He was born and died in a small village on Anglesey and spent his whole life in North Wales. I remember as going with my Taid to Chester across the border once and we had to go back home as he felt ill after about 10 mins that was the first and last time he ventured out of Wales lol. It's a little sad but romantic in a way too.
Maybe these experiences had a bearing on the survival of the Welsh language as it seems to me that the Welsh don't have such itchy feet as the Scots or Irish (no highland clearances or potato famines).

In reply to Gazlynn:

Cymlish is very similar to Italianglish in that case. In Italianglish words like hammer are translated to 'bashio' and screwdriver to 'screwio'.
Maybe with Cymlish you use the same words but don't wave your arms around as much. ;0)

Poor show UKC, why has this been moved to The Pub? It's a great thread and properly belongs in the Culture Bunker.

In reply to teflonpete:

Sounds like a very similar language. Us users of Cymlish will have to work on our facial expressions and wave our arms about a bit more I think to get full synergy with our Italianglish speaking cousins.

This Thread has been very interesting and a big learning experience to me and am also baffled why it has been moved to the pub forum?

In reply to Gazlynn:

>> How about this for a theory. The highland clearances removed many crofters from the land, who mostly spoke Gaelic. These people largely emigrated, to north America, Australia etc. That removed a reservoir of the Scots Gaelic speakers. Did they have similar clearances in Wales?
Just for the record, my previous post re. Cumbrian dialect should have said that Cumbria does not appear in the Doomsday book, not the Magna Carta.

In reply to Gazlynn:

Well I think that the Welsh diaspora was a little later, six out of my eight great grandparents were first language welsh speakers living in Derbyshire (the other two were Scottish). Mind you the men all worked at Pentrich Colliery (another surviving British name!) during my grandparent's days.

In reply to pyle:

No I don't think us Welsh had anything like the highland clearances but the welsh language was definitely persecuted. I am sure things like the highland clearances had a massive impact on Scots Gaelic speakers but don't know the history well enough

In reply to pyle:

No they didn't. Neither did they have anything like the potato famine which affected the rural poor in Ireland. I think you're right. Given that the 'pool' of Gaelic speakers in both Ireland and Scotland would have been the rural poor, then it would explain the far greater decline of Gaelic in both countries.


I agree that the Cumbrian dialect has been extremely resilient, all things considered. It does show the huge and lasting linguistic effect that a couple of centuries of Norse in-migration has had on Cumbria aided probably by insular life in the dales as well as the lack of large scale in or out migration affecting the rural areas. What's often overlooked is that the Saxons were essentially an 'urban' people - they preferred to group together in fortified villages/ towns etc, surrounded by their cultivated farmland, and this tended to limit their expansion into marginal upland areas. Without doubt this demographic and social characteristic aided the survival of the Welsh language in the upland areas of Wales.

In reply to pyle:
These people largely emigrated, to north America, Australia etc.

The Welsh don't have anything on such a large scale as places like Nova Scotia and stuff like that.
Although there is a Welsh speaking community in Patagonia which I am buzzing about visiting one day in the near future. I don't know if this is true but heard a rumor that Gabriel Batistuta can speak Welsh!!!
It is quite strange to speak Welsh with people from Patagonia as the speak it with a sort of spanish accent.
It's a small world..

In reply to Clarence:

Yes, that's an extremely valid and pertinent point. Large scale movement of Welsh peoples didn't really occur until the Industrial Revolution which led to the migration of people from the rural areas to the developing industrial/urban areas. These movements were within Wales and out of Wales as well. It would explain your Welsh speaking great grandparents in Derbyshire. In South and NE Wales, it meant that a huge number of native Welsh speakers moved into the coal mining valleys, thus vastly strengthening the Welsh language in areas where it had been in decline for a long time.

On my father's side, my great great grandparents were smallholders on the Llyn penninsula in North Wales, but my great grandparents moved to work in the slate mines of North Wales. Others went to sea, sailing out of Porth Dinllaen and Caernarfon on sailing ships involved with the slate export trade. One great uncle of mine, a ship's captain, died of an illness in Santiago, Chile, and was buried there. Others, having gained skills as slate miners and quarrymen, then migrated to the newly developing slate quarries in Pennsylvania. I have a very early childhood memory of being taken to meet a liner in Liverpool by my parents to meet a relative of my father who had been born and brought up in the States. It was her first visit to Britain and I distinctly remember that, as a second generation American, she spoke Welsh fluently but with a distinct and, to my ears, a very odd Pennsylvania drawl. I now have more relations in the States than here in the UK.

Other out-migrations from Wales, as elsewhere in Europe, were for reasons of religious persucution. This was the main reason for the migration of Welsh people from small ports such as Aberaeron and Aberystwyth to Patagonia's Gaiman and Chubut areas. Even here, the Welsh language has proved to be extremely resilient, with large numbers of third and fourth generation Argentinians still being fully bilingual today in Welsh and Spanish.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:
strengthening the Welsh language in areas where it had been in decline for a long time.


>> What religous persecution was that, out of curiosity. Were they disliked because they were Chapel/Methodist or because they weren't Chapel/Methodist?

In reply to thin bob:

Just to add - If anyone is interested in learning Welsh then there is a free MP3 course here

http://www.saysomethingin.com

which I am currently giving a go and liking a lot.

In reply to Clarence:

Pob lwc ar dysgu Cymraeg.

In reply to pyle: Because they were Chapel/Nonconformists rather than Church of England

In reply to Dave Williams:

I too had an ancient ancestor who moved from N Wales to the slate communities of Pensylvania. They even built a statue of him in Bangor, PA
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7743152@N07/1353909442

In reply to Gazlynn:

Diolch yn fawr! Dw i'n licio dysgu Cymraeg...

...but I'm only on lesson two/three so I can't say much useful yet!

In reply to Gazlynn:

The decline of Gaelic was partly due to a bill that was passed in the early 1900s that made English the compulsory language in schools across Scotland. Kids were belted if they were caught speaking the language! This carried on right up to the 60s and possibly even the seventies. It survived the clearances and the sanctions imposed on the language after Culloden but it was this Act that really seemed to hasten the decline of the language.

It's still a struggle today but the Gaelic Language Act has helped matters, but we still have to constantly justify our presence, with the cry of "a waste of tax payers money" the most common whinge.

In reply to Toby S:

I don't want this to become a political thread or whose language has prospered better but it does look like Wales has got a head start on the Scottish regarding keeping its language alive or maybe it's because speaking Welsh is something that is close to my heart. I have a 7 year old son born in Stirling and goes to school locally and not once has he mentioned Gaelic from school. In Wales that would be unheard of as it is compulsory that every child has Welsh lessons in school.
Through my work I also have visited the Gaelic college on Skye which was wonderful but if the truth be known there where more people from overseas especially Germans doing the courses than Scottish people. I have also visited a Gaelic school in Glasgow which is right next door to the education department and when I said to them how great the school was they just said "oh it is full of middle class idiots that feel it's a good thing to send their kids to a Gaelic school"
It's a great shame in my view.
Keep the faith Toby.
I have decided that I am going to learn the language with my son.

Does anyone know of a course I can go on or something I can download from the internet to learn Scots Gaelic?

In reply to Toby S:

This mirrors what happened in Wales only clearly it all occured later in Scotland. Thankfully it would appear that we've probably been through the worst of this in Wales. The turning point came, believe it or not, during Margaret Thatcher's Conservative Government when serious amounts of money were invested to strengthen the rather fragile state of the Welsh language. Since then, things have slowly gone from strength to strength. As in Scotland, there are still those who moan about the cost, those who don't appreciate the advantages of bilingualism, those who feel threatened etc and I suppose there always will be. I believe that many of the strategies which have proved successful in Wales have and are being used in Scotland too.

Gu math theid leibh / Lwc dda

Dave

In reply to Gazlynn: I don't like to disabuse you but I think what you said is b*llox.

Although my two youngest children have both been educated in the medium of Welsh I'm not sure that a) Welsh plays any part in non Welsh medium education in S Wales or indeed b) that learning say, Physics or Geography in the Welsh language has any real benefit to the pupils.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I am always prone to spouting some ceilliau (b*llox) lol


I have lived in Wales most of my life and feel that I have benefited from being a Welsh speaker the friends I have made, fitting into the community where I was brought up, I even lost my virginity at an Eisteddfod (welsh cultural festival).I thought whilst it is compulsory to learn some Welsh in Schools everybody has a choice if they want to take up physics or geography through the medium of Welsh or English in Welsh schools which I believe is a good thing.
I understand your point but for me it has been beneficial.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Welsh is a compulsory subject as a 2nd language in non Welsh medium state schools in Wales up to the age of 15(?)

In reply to Gazlynn:

One of the biggest problems, with Gaelic I mean, is the massive apathy and almost total lack of action by Gaelic speakers to actually do anything. I mean things like supporting Gaelic Medium Education, campaigning, complaining, turning aut to events and most importantly actually considering what people are trying to do.

The numbers in GME are tiny and need to expand to at least five times the level to even come close to arresting the decline.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

As someone who's spent most of his working life teaching in 4-18 bilingual settings, I'm sorry you feel this way, especially as you opted to have your children educated through the medium of Welsh. If you're non Welsh speaking yourself, I also realise that this would have been a tremendous committment for you and your partner to make.

More so now than ever before, there's no doubt that bilingualism in Welsh and English is important, especially for children and young people in Wales. It's far, far greater than simply studying Geography or Physics through the medium of Welsh. Having ability in both languages will affect the rest of their lives (as well as those of their parents. Things will never be the same again.) While not intending to 'teach you to suck eggs', as you'll be well aware of the pros and cons of bilingualism, I'll briefly present an overview - for the benefit of others following this thread who, perhaps, may be less aware.

There's no doubt at being bilingual, multilingual or monolingual in present day Wales will affect one's identity, networks of friends etc, education, employment, marriage, preferred area of residence, travel as well as thinking. Being bilingual in any two languages increases opportunities and choices. For much of the twentieth century, bilingualism was seen as a disadvantage in Wales as in many other countries, not least in schooling/education. But over the past 20-30 years, the overwhelming international view is that bilingualism has definite benefits. Two languages: twice the choice, twice the opportunity, twice the benefit, etc.

Being bilingual has advantages:

# Communication with the whole community in Wales
# Access to two cultures -. Welsh culture is obviously very different from English culture.
# Security in identity- The Welsh language is one of the few things that differentiates Wales from the rest of the UK. It can be a powerful link between Welsh people everywhere.
# Tolerance of other languages and cultures - Two languages give people a wider cultural experience which can lead to far greater tolerance of differences in cultures etc beyond their own experience.
# Intellectual ability - greater flexibility in creative thought, in sensitivity, enhanced IQ, enhanced ability in reading and assimilation of information.
# Educational benefits - Bilingual people tend to achieve at a higher level as well as show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations. Analysis of GCSE and A level examination results in Wales shows that children taught in Welsh medium schools consistently outperform their English-medium equivalents. Remember that a very large number of those in Welsh-medium education will come from monoglot English homes.
# Multilingualism becomes easier - There's much evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language. I recently visited a mixed race primary school in Namibia where *all* the pupils were multilingual. To encounter children who were confidently 100% fluent in English, German, Afrikkans, Damara and Herero was stunning.
# Employment advantages - Welsh speakers are increasingly needed in the retail sector, tourism, transport, public relations, banking and accountancy, administration, translation, secretarial work, marketing, sales, the law and education. I have 3 sons, all of whom were educated through the medium of Welsh. For two, speaking Welsh is an advantage in their work, for the 3rd it's proved to be essential (and all work in an English speaking part of Wales, less than 20 miles from the border with England.)
# Raised self-esteem - It's 'cool' to be Welsh and a sense of real ownership of both Welsh and English can do wonders to help raise self-esteem.

But there are also some disadvantages that can't be brushed aside:

# Exaggerating weakness - Those already struggling in one language will definitely be floundering even more with two.
# Increased parental input - especially for mono-lingual parents.
# Cultural identity - Who am I? Am I Welsh, English, British, European, Anglo-Welsh, Welsh-British, Welsh-European? This can cause a problem. Personally, I don't mind being 'culturally hyphenated' but I realise that there will be a few others who feel uncomfortable having two identities.

Diversity should be both celebrated and championed. Everyone in and from Wales, and possibly even Britain, can be proud of the language, even if they don't speak it. It's probably one of the oldest European languages, has survived the Romans, Normans, Irish, Saxons, Vikings etc. It lives and it belongs to us all.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

This seems to be a very well-informaed thread so perhaps someone can enlighten me - does Welsh have swear words of its own?

I only ask because I witnessed a massive row between 2 van drivers on the A5 at Ogwen once - they stopped in the middle of the road near where I was parked to exchange their views on something (in Welsh, so I've no idea what, though bad driving springs to mind as a possibility)

While the subject was unclear, I could tell there was swearing involved because the terms 'F*cking' 'C*nt' and 'F*cking C*nt' stood out like beacons of meaning amid what to my ignorant ear was jabber. The * is my phonetic rendition of a u in a Welsh accent.

So what was going on here? Does Welsh borrow bad words from English to maintain it's moral purity, or what?

In reply to Donald M:

I was aware of this and I think it's a shame. Gaelic is something that makes Scotland really stand out from the rest of the UK and it's a pity that more people can't have pride in the language, even if they don't speak it themselves. There's little doubt that Cornish originally died out, as did Manx, because of apathy and disinterest.

In Wales, despite significant opposition from the antis and the woefully apathetic, there's been a long history of campaigning, which has got us to where we are today - Welsh Language Act, Welsh as a second language compulsory up to 16, Welsh language TV and radio, bilingual road signs, full legal equality between English and Welsh and huge support and enthusiasm for the language, and bilingual education especially, not only in the Welsh speaking heartland but also in the English speaking areas.

You may find this interesting:
http://www.llgc.org.uk/ymgyrchu/Iaith/CymIaith/index-e.htm

If there's no pride as far as Gaelic is concerned, then I don't know what the answer is for Scotland. Possibly by consistently 'chipping away', people's attitudes may change although it might take generations - as it has taken here in Wales.

Gu math theid leat!

Dave

In reply to robinsi197:

It's quite possible to swear in Welsh. It is, however, interesting that native Welsh swear words or expressions - as opposed to loan words - tend not to be sexual, and that the word "diawl" (devil) or "uffern" (hell) are much, much stronger in Welsh than in English. So the use of loan words of a sexual nature can be very effective and, clearly, the ability to use them is a little publicised advantage of Welsh-English bilingualism.

Both non Welsh speakers and Welsh speakers may find this interesting:
http://www.insults.net/html/swear/welsh.html
(May contradict what I just wrote above though!!)

And for Welsh speakers only:
http://www.rhegiadur.com/

Mwynhewch/ Enjoy!! :¬)

Dave

In reply to robinsi197:

There are some Welsh swear words, examples are

Rhech for F*rt which I like because it is onomatopoeic.

Cachu for Sh*t

As for F*ucking and C*nt there are no real Welsh swear translations that I am aware of so we use the English swear words for them.

Hope this helps

Dave

Diolch am ymateb i yr postyn gunt. Mi oedd yn ymateb gwych

I think it's best to think that you can't swear in Welsh, only blaspheme.

In reply to Gazlynn:

And thank you too, for the interesting replies. I didn't like to ask the gentlemen in the vans at the time.

Robin

In reply to Dave Williams: being bilingual does not increase IQ! nor does it affect creativity!

In reply to monkey_moves:

Sorry, but all recent and current research concludes otherwise. The most recent research suggests that bilinguals are, at the very least, equal to monolinguals on IQ tests. When bilinguals have two well developed languages (i.e. balanced bilingualism), bilinguals tend to show a slight superiority in IQ scores compared with monolinguals. If bilinguals and monolinguals from the same social class are compared, the superiority is even greater.

As for creativity, a 2006 research project compared cognitive flexibility in 9-11 year old kids. 62 Yoruba/English and 86 Welsh/English bilinguals were compared to a similar number of monolinguals who were all English-speaking. The children undertook Verbal and Nonverbal Creativity tests, Intelligence tests, the Thornton-Hagen Cognitive Abilities Test and Language Proficiency tests under controlled conditions. Results: Total Verbal Creativity Score - 41.9 pts (monolingual); 44.4 pts (bilingual). The conclusion was that bilingual kids are more creative, particularly verbally.

Googling will unearth plenty of corresponding research, all with very similar conclusions.

Dim prob. Diolch am y cymeradwyaeth. Pob lwc hefyd gyda dysgu'r Gaeleg.

Dave

In reply to Gazlynn:

Which is a shame, there's a gaelic medium unit on Riverside by the way. An old school friend of mine works there


Yeah, there is some of that unfortunately, co-dhiu - they're a minority thankfully. I have to deal with a view of them at Bun-sgoil Gaidhlig Inbhir Nis!


Tapadh Leat!



A few resources here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/learngaelic/anlitirbheag/index.shtml
http://www.gaelic4parents.com/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/beag_air_bheag/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/colinandcumberland/

I've got a few other bits and bobs I can photocopy and send to you if you're really interested

In reply to Dave Williams:

Yes, being bi, tri or multi lingual is good for the brain.

But that's not an argument for propping up an irrelevant language.

Language is a way for humans to communicate with each other. As a general principle it's not a bad idea to move away from the little ones.

In reply to Dave Williams: really? can you offer a decent explanation for the IQ paradox perhaps, or the ? (not arguing as such but the whole IQ test situation is very complicated and nowhere near resolved as yet, only time will tell on some of the theories) there are many very complicated issues with using IQ tests a measures of intelligence - this depends upon your viewpoints and scientific disciplines, not to mention the inherent statistical problems, time, and cultural considerations, let alone the biological ones such as fluctuations due to age, health, emotional stress etc etc. As for creativity there is a much stronger link between insanity and creativity than there is bilingualism!, i tend to think that creativity is a hard thing to test.

In reply to monkey_moves: by the way, i totally agree on the cultural benefits and need for diversity etc I was just being kinda pedantic!

In reply to Toby S:

Cheers Toby

I am pretty serious about learning Scots Gaelic and notice from your profile that you have recently climbed at auchinstarry.
We could possibly meet up for a climb and a natter one day. Unfortunately I don't climb hard and am pretty new to it but am safe and sound.

G

In reply to brothersoulshine:



Irrelevant???? In your eyes maybe to others it's is completely relevant.

I take it your fluent in Manderin???

In reply to Gazlynn:

Unfortunately I haven't been to Auchinstarry in a loooong time. I just don't bother my arse to update my logbook! I live in Inverness but am down in Stirling fairly regularly as my mum lives there and my wife is at Stirling Uni. Feel free to pop round if you're ever up this way. There's plenty of Gaelic spoken in the house (my nine year old daughter is fluent as are most of her friends) so you'd get a good feel for it.

In reply to brothersoulshine:

Back 5 minutes and already causing trouble a bhalaich? Mach a seo!

In reply to brothersoulshine:

Yes, have you been away learning Mandarin????

;¬)

In reply to Gazlynn:

Irrelevant as a form of communication given that there are no Welsh speakers who cannot also speak English.

Welsh is merely a hobby.

In reply to brothersoulshine:
untrue - my better half worked in rural north wales and there are a fair few folk who cannot communicate well in English.

In reply to brothersoulshine:

"Welsh is merely a hobby".

To some people, Welsh is their first language.

In reply to brothersoulshine:




I have really enjoyed this thread it's a shame you came and destroyed it with your idiotic comments.

Can you no go missing again please?

In reply to Gazlynn:

An interesting bit in today's Times about Welsh medium teaching: apparently in Cardiff the Welsh medium schools are full beyond bursting, and the English medium schools have many vacant places.

Its in the news review section, Chris Woodhead's Q & A bit towards the end. I lack the wit to post a link.

Y,

In reply to Dave Williams:
You've got me thinking!

The Welsh have never been particularly expansionist - unlike the Scottish, I don't think they've ever invaded England. They've defended their home patch, using the guerilla warfare techniques, and they've raided across the border. So you're correct: there have been no major battles, but there has been lots of conflict!

Perhaps that's why the Welsh language is treated differently to Gaelic by the English. The Welsh were never seen as an threat, whereas the Scots were (in fact, would I be correct in saying that Gaelic was made illeagal for a period after the Jacobite rebellion?)

Y.

In reply to brothersoulshine:
You may (or may not) be correct. But language is far more than a communication tool: its an expression of community.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

Well, it was the last battle before the Welsh finally 'surrendered' to English rule. Peace lasted for over a century, but in 1400 open hostilities broke out once again when the Welsh revolted against oppressive and draconian English rule under the leadership of Owain Glyn Dwr, a wealthy and well-educated landowner and ex-English army officer from NE Wales.

By 1405, after sustained guerrilla warfare, as well as a few set-piece battles against the English occupation forces, Wales was once more independent and in just five years Owain Glyn Dwr had gone from the leader of a rag tag rebel force to lead a fully independent Wales as a crowned Prince of Wales. He was recognized by Scotland, Ireland and France but, of course. not by England’s king, Henry IV. Wales' parliament was based in Machynlleth at this time, and the building still stands today in the town centre. Sometime later, Glyn Dwr sent a letter, written in Latin, to Charles VI of France asking for his military assistance against King Henry IV of England.

So in 1405, with the help of France, Glyn Dwr invaded England. He met Henry IV's English forces two miles north of Worcester. The two armies faced each other on opposing hills, the English on Abberley Hill and the combined Welsh/French forces on Woodbury Hill. But it was a stalemate and the opposing armies never actually engaged in battle. The English forces outflanked the Welsh and, consequently, with their supply routes blocked, the Welsh began to starve. Henry stood down his army and the Welsh headed home. However, the presence, albeit brief, of both Welsh and French forces on English soil shook the English establishment to the core and it served to stiffen Henry's resolve to put an end to the Welsh rebellion.

The Welsh revolt raged on for four more years until the rebellion's money and foreign backing began to dry up and the rebellion was finally suppressed when Harlech castle fell to the English after a long and bitter seige. The uprising had lasted nearly 10 years and had virtually brought England almost to its knees.

Revenge was quick. When Harlech fell, Glyn Dwr's wife, daughters and granddaughters were captured and imprisoned in the Tower of London, where they died as a result of starvation and mistreatment. Somehow or other, Glyn Dwr himself evaded capture and disappeared into the mists of Welsh legend.

Dave

In reply to brothersoulshine:

muppet.

welsh is my heritage and something i am very proud of, clearly you have nothing in your past to be proud of?!

In reply to Yrmenlaf:


Language and culture are also intrinsically interlinked. If it ever were to happen, a world where only Mandarin and English were spoken (perhaps the utopia for ease of communication) would lack the cultural richness and colour that exist at present as a result of diversity of languages.

Dave

In reply to Dave Williams:

Thanks for that: I tend to run out of History at about 1066...

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:


Yep, along with the playing of the pipes (there are some that would argues that this is no bad thing!) and the wearing of the plaid.

It would be nice if we could keep the thread on track as its proving to be really interesting. Would hate it to turn into another "minority languages are bad mmmmkay" bitchfest.

In regards to Welsh stuff, my wife is Welsh and called Dwynwen after the saint (?) and my daughter is called Rhiannon after the Welsh Princess in the Mabinogion.

In reply to Dave Williams:
Good arguments - there's also a ton of data that suggests, quite strongly, that being multilingual makes you smarter - not always true, of course, but in general.

For example, by no stretch of the imagination could I be called multilingual, and I'm pretty smart....

In reply to pneame:
And I see this has been addressed already (goes to back of class and deletes last sentence)

In reply to Gazlynn:

No need to get personal fella.