UKC

hello,

that opening statement is a bit of a huge generalisation but anyway... bear with me...

someone sent me one of those random surveys a while ago, you know the sort, do you like jam or marmalade, what colour socks are you wearing, that sort of thing... but one of the questions was 'what are you good at'? and another was 'what do you like least about yourself?'. now I sent this to about 10 female friends, all of whom I consider to be bright, articulate, strong, successful (in their own way) people, and all but one of them sent it back saying things along the lines of that they weren't much good at anything, and that they least liked their lack of confidence.

it just struck me as quite curious. I can't imagine blokes saying the same thing. Eitehr I kickstarted it in a rather self-deprecating way which then influenced how everyone else answered, or perhaps as a random sample of society, there really are lots of women who feel a bit rubbish about themselves. I've asked questions on here before about self-deprecation, and one thing that came out was that we as a nation aren't great at saying 'hey, I'm great at stuff, me', but I was wondering... is it more of a female thing? and if so, why?

ta.

In reply to CJD:

Strangely i was just thinking about this - and was thinking that I'm not very good at much, but I'm good a lots of things - quite a generalist in that i can turn my hand to most things, but don't excel at any.

For example I'm OK with computers, and at my work people ask my things rather than call the help desk, but compared to lots of people i know I'm not at all good.

In reply to CJD: This is something I've been thinking about too. There are things I know I can do, and personally I am confident about my abilities to do. However, I don't feel confident to tell/show people incase they laugh or say that it's no good.

In reply to CJD:


Men often define their self worth by their achievements. Women often define their self worth by how caring they are (Maybe boasting is not a very caring thing to do).

In reply to Kate:

ohhh that sounds familiar! and then people tell you and tell you and tell you until they get sick of telling you, and start to think that you're being self-deprecating for the sake of it. But then the insecure bit of you says 'they're only saying that to be nice' ha haa!

In reply to CJD:
>But then the insecure bit of you says 'they're only saying that to be nice' ha haa!

Exactly.

In reply to CJD:

I find people get threatened and judge you when you say how good you are. I tell all my mates who are as successful as me exactly what's happening and what I'm good at ect.. but people I meet randomly or through climbing usually get a very dumbed down version of the story.

In reply to John1923:

ooo, being threatened, good point. maybe there's a bit of competitiveness in all of us, but amongst some of my female friends it's about negative competition, it sometimes seems - as in 'ooo I'm terrible at this' 'oo no I'm worse' etc.

quite amusing when looked at objectively

In reply to CJD:

Could it also be a bit of modesty creeping in? Few people want others to think they're being bigheaded about 'stuff'.

I have thought about the questions since and could probably rewrite my answers to at least one of those two particular questions.
Apparently I am good at calming people down when things are going to rats and explaining stuff in a way people can understand. I am also very good at writing technical documents that don't come across as being technical.

Note my use of the 'apparently' at the beginning. There's my lack of confidence in my abilites again! (my answer to the second question) And also, if I say apparently it doesn't look like I agree with the person who told me this and I am therefore not being bigheaded about it...

I stand by the fact that being bendy is a fairly good thing to be good at though.

In reply to TN:

ha ha, being bendy is definitely a good thing.

I think in retrospect I'd have changed some of my answers too, but it's interesting that my first response was to put the self-deprecating things down, rather than saying something like 'I can make people laugh, i can take pics, I can write...' it's odd.

just thought it was curious. Although one of the blokes I sent it to was similarly self-disparaging, but I think he's in a generally grumpy mood at the moment.

In reply to CJD:

marie, why have you deleted your comments? they were interesting!

In reply to CJD: I didnt think they made much sense :oS

In reply to marie:

ha ha, you daft sod. they did.

In reply to CJD:

Perhaps we all feel the same but women are braver at saying it? Not the thing for a big butch boy to say "I'm useless, mummy!"

In reply to JimR:

but then how come blokes are okay at saying 'hey I'm ace at this, me'?

In reply to CJD:

kidology (sic) ma'am!

In reply to CJD:

Surgical exams used to have negative marking for the MCQ until it ws realised this penalised females. I love that females have a totally different attitude to appreciating risk, expressing fear and consequently can come across almost as insecure as men come across "up themselves". Everyone please forgive the generalisations. Apart from Germans.

In reply to Duz Walker:

what's MCQ?

In reply to CJD:

missed cut quota?

In reply to CJD:

Also - how can you tell if women ARE insecure about their talents, or if they just don't like to boast about their talents?

I think many women are aware that they may be good at something - but they know that other people may be even better than them, and that people who are worse than them don't want to rub it in to those people.

I think if you ask women what they are good at, they may think of something but not want to say it.

But if you ask the question "do you have any abilities that you feel grateful for having?" you will get answers straight away...

In reply to tlm:

ah, interesting - it's all in the phrasing!

In reply to CJD:

No, I think men are generally more insecure about their talents or lack thereof. It's a hobby thing. Men have hobbies whereas women are more normal. Witness all the threads complaining about rubbish votes on photo galleries - nearly all men. The same goes for issues of climbing grades. On the other hand I've never met a woman insecure about her ability to give a good BJ.

In reply to CJD:

Multiple Choice Question i.e a stem (In Hammorrhoids......) followed by five statements either true or false. Blokes were far more prepared to have an educated guess, even if the penalty for a wrong answer was a minus mark. The removal of negative marking ironed out the gender difference.

In reply to CJD: This self-deprecation has always slightly irritated me but I think it based on women trying harder than men to fit in. UK society is very high in false modesty and we don't like "big heads" so women often super-conform to this societal norm by hiding or undervaluing their skills. Also women are generally less openly competitive, and being open about your capabilities is being overtly competitive. To be good at something means that you could well be better than others.

In reply to CJD:
It's not a female thing. It's a male thing.
Throughout (patriarchal) recorded history women have been and continue to be discouraged from anything other than "chaste, silent, and obedient"; and if not they're encouraged to be sex objects or mothers.
By entertainment.
By family.
By tradition.
By the Church.
By the media.
By advertising.
By Oprah.
Try as you might to avoid or deflect their effects on your subconscious it remains all the same and occassionally surfaces.
And it's all pure bollocks.

In reply to CJD:

Chalk this up to the 'PSD is actually a big girl' phenomenon if you want, but I'm always struggling to think of anything I've acheived, and I'm also acutely aware of my lack of confidence. The two are naturally linked though ("I daren't say that in case someone says that I'm not...")

It does seem to be more of a female thing though - but quite often it seems that they say it so that someone can contradict them, as it's not quite acceptable to say how good you are at something. In some cases it runs deeper than that though, and I know that's the case with me - last week I had something to really boast about, but I managed to paint myself into a corner where I couldn't say anything as I'd already explained at length why I couldn't do what I'd already done.

Thank heavens I have people around me with more guts!

In reply to CJD: Answers would also depend a lot on your state of mind when completing the survey.... .

But thinking about it, even if I'd been in a more positive mood I would still probably answer the questions you're refering to in a sarcastic manner rather than stating what I thought I was good at - possibly in case the other person didn't agree that I was good at 'x', or thought I was boasting.

It's an interesting subject!

In reply to Regis Von Goatlips:


Or you could be talking ovaries.

In reply to Duz Walker:

Frig .. jings .. lot of confidence in surgeons .. left or right leg .. 50% chance lets go for the right!

In reply to CJD:

Don't worry your pretty head dearie, just get back to the kitchen sink.















That is why females are so insecure, comments like that from stupid people. They eventually start to believe the tale, when they are often better than the one who said it.

Women are often better at 'soft' argh can't remember the word, just better at dealing with others face to face where men would get embarrased. My wife had zilch qualifications, but put her talking to people in hospital or nursing homes or in trouble and her empathy was better than anyone else s I have ever met, and it was not false so came across well with people who would not dream of opening up to the professionals who were supposed to talk to them.
That is where a lot of you win, your skill at reading other people and being able to talk without worrying.

Can you imagine a man starting a thread like;

why are men so insecure about their talents?

In reply to sutty:

You could start a thread like - why do we think less of men who are derogatory of themselves??

In reply to JimR:

A suregon not prepared to take risks would never operate. There is a balance of risk and benefit in all things. Their duty is to inform those making the decision.

In reply to CJD:

Whilst I think there's something in Goatlips' observation about "background influence", I think this is less of a gender issue and more of a perception and type-of-person issue.

Perception bit - just about *everyone* feels insecure at least some of the time. Others may see them as hugely confident despite this.

Type-of-person bit - most of my friends are chronically insecure over-achievers; it's part of what drives them.

Yours, nervously,

J

In reply to CJD:
Umm, you sent one to me (not sure if that is the survey you were talking about...) and I don't think I answered like that, but I can't see a question asking about what I was good at (apart from the 'What is your special talent?' one). So maybe I got a different survey! I definitely didn't say I liked my lack of confidence!

Re: self deprecation, I think females are trained to be like that... it starts at school or earlier where it isn't seemly to boast. I came to school in the UK from a largely American system and learned pretty early on that it wasn't the done thing to say you were good at something, and that academic success was A Bad Thing (I still remember the Walk of Shame back to your desk after collecting your homework if you'd scored 10/10 - the whole class would hiss). I don't think it is overly female, as certain classes of British males also go in for self-deprecation - look at our romantic heroes - Hugh Grant, Colin Firth. But yes, I think it's part of the British psyche to be self-deprecating... sort of one of our 'things', like the belief that we invented sarcasm and are the only ones who know how to use it.

In reply to Nao:

you were the 'but one' I mentioned in my OP

and Fiend, the observation was about a large proportion of people I sent it to, not everyone, because, as you so sagely observe, you're not female... lol

In reply to CJD:
I think I'm good at a lot of things and not at a lot of other things, we can't be talented in everything (sadly).

In reply to CJD:

Excuse'y moi - I said I had a talent but it was private

In reply to JoH - Editor:

ha haaa, but you see what I mean about the rest of it...?

In reply to CJD: Maybe the insecurity thing about talents is female, because for males it would be a case of knowing positively, absolutely and certainly that we're shite at everything (or maybe that's just me)

In reply to CJD: how can you do a survey of ten women then ask why are all women..

like going to the farm then asking why are all sheep white

In reply to johnj:

i started the OP by saying that it was a gross generalisation! aaargh!

and then went on to say that it was mere speculation

<bangs head against desk>
<starts to cry>

In reply to Moacs:



this is a trait I recognise in many of my friends

In reply to CJD: so you ask a random question with an even more random criteria, than when you get a random answer about fluffly sheep, you attack your desk

i don't know, is it like a knock knock joke

why are lots of women so insecure about their talents?

In reply to CJD:

Don't cry

<offers aforementioned biscuit remnant>
<puppy dog eyes>
<wags tail>

In reply to CJD:

That’s a great question!
(There’s something you are good at, BTW)

I don't think, as a few people have already said, that's it's just a female thing.

I’ve been accused of being to0 self depreciating of my abilities in the past, but when i do try and "big myself up" to my ears i just sound arrogant rather than confident

And because I hate arrogant people I’d rather be quiet than a d1ck
does that make sense?

In reply to johnj:

<sighs>

no it wasn't intended as a joke, it was just a pondering, I didn't mean anything by it, another random thought would be that if my posts bug you that much with their nonsensical wafflings, don't click on them...

In reply to rallymania:

yes it does - seems like nobody wants to say 'hey I'm great at x y or z' then have someone come along and say 'well you're not that great'.

a while ago, various people on here were chattering about my pics, which was nice, but then a friend rang me to say 'your pics aren't that great, people are only getting revved up 'cos you're CJD and you post a lot' - which for me kind of backed up the importance of not bigging oneself up...

In reply to CJD: i was pondering why you were pondering about about a particular veiwpoint which didn't seem anything other than a throw away thought, if my replies bug you so much that you have to cry, please just ignore me. or put you fingers in your ears or something simular.

Have a nice day :+)

In reply to johnj:

I was pondering it because that's, like, what I *do*.

you've met me, you know I chatter. it's just the way I am.

In reply to CJD: its some kind of balance for every bit of praise there is out there, there is also cutting critism, some of it on both sides is unjustified. why not just do what you do, and why worry

In reply to johnj:

but this is kind of the point of the thread, people *do* worry about these things...

well I do anyway.

obviously.

In reply to CJD: but introspection ultimately leads to i knew that anyhow, what was all that about

In reply to johnj:

er... yes.

but sometimes we are the way we are for reasons that have been drummed into us over a long period, so undoing that takes time, you can't just snap out of it.

I'd have to do a full reinstall of my operating system I think (to use computer parlance).

anyway, back to the point, which was an observation that lots of women aren't great at being confident about the stuff they do well, and I was wondering why not.

In reply to CJD: Yes you are a product of your enviroment for sure, and you cannot change your ways overnight.
Maybe understanding of yourself only comes when your have seen yourself in every conciveable situtaion over time. And then compare to how others react in the same situations.

In reply to CJD:

I think that a lot of things feed into it, such as the media, which support the idea that there *has* to be something wrong with you, as a female (read some female-oriented magazines if you're unsure what I mean). The media are obsessed with how thin women are, how beautiful, how successful (or not) their relationships - very little to do with their talents, and everything to do with trivial things that celeb women are valued for: beauty, vacuousness and shagging famous men. They revel in building them up and breaking them down (witness the 'C'BB saga of the past few weeks - yes, everyone liked Jade Goody when she was a common girl done good - but they positively bayed for her blood a couple of years later, and seemed to enjoy it even more).

The message of 'You're not alright as you are' is drummed into women from birth, practically. I ain't no feminist and I don't think women help themselves very much, but even I can see that the behaviour reinforced in little boys is a lot different from that reinforced in little girls. I remember being 12 and not worried about my weight at all and wondering why everyone else was. Then I lost a lot of weight at 16 and suddenly that was success. Not being top of the year, or getting the top scholarship at 13. No, my biggest, most recognised achievement at school was losing a stone and pulling the Lower Sixth hunk.

In reply to CJD:
well for me it's more of "listen to that pratt harping on about how great they think they are" rather than thinking that i'm actually better than them. i often find that people that talk about themselves a lot in that manner are often quite shallow adn actually quite dull.


and the friend that called you up about your pictures... i hope they don't post on here because i sense green eyes in their response. (or a bit of mirth perhaps)
my pics are not that great, i'm a point and shoot camera operator (if someone said they are rubbish i wouldn't care becasue it's not that important to me). so compared to mine, your pics are FAB. maybe there's things you could do / learn to make them even better but compared to what most people do, you take great pics. so your friend phoning to say your pics are only well recieved because you are cjd and you post a lot is a bit harsh... kind of like what our american friend was saying. your friend isn't letting the praise go to your head

In reply to rallymania:
oh... and i really wish i could spell

In reply to rallymania:

he does post on here, he knows I thought it was a strange response, especially when he went out taking pics of the things that people had admired my pics of... ha ha!

aaanyway.

i do know some people who big themselves up about things that they're clearly not very good at, and whilst I admire their confidence, a part of me winces inside as there's inevitably some sort of 'finding out' moment which is a bit harsh.

In reply to Nao:

well done you, but no need to blow your own trumpet

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Ha ha. It is so stupid though, the messages we give young women - that it doesn't matter how clever you are, or how good you are at music or drama or sport or art - what really matters is whether you are as thin and nice-looking as you can be, and what power you can have over men.

It's quite scary.

In reply to Nao:

scary for us blokes too!

In reply to Nao:


yes - all those skills but hey, if you don't have a nice man you're a failure.

lol lol lol.

In reply to CJD:
Strangely enough Bridget Jones was on tv last night and I idly made 'im indoors watch a bit of it. I was cackling like a maniac when she goes to dinner with all those 'smug marrieds' and is introduced to all the couples, and their first question is to ask her about her lovelife.

I think the bloke was a bit bemused!

I don't think men get the same amount of pressure about being 'left on the shelf' as women do.

In reply to Nao:

I am familiar with this situation. I find it hilarious... (no, really). My mum and her friends are particularly fascinated by my lovelife or lack of...

In reply to Nao:


oh, and yes, my mum's taken to referring to all my old schoolfriends who are a bit more organised about their lives (i.e. settled with marriages and babies and mortgages) as her 'other daughters'... which is nice. Because mortgages and babies really do matter, right?

bitter? immense chip on shoulder? moi?

<cough>

In reply to CJD: good question, but after reading all the other crap i got bord as hell. can we make it simple?

yes, just anwers the f*~@£$% question ladies!!

the best way to know the answer is to take in wat other people have said.

half off me thinks that you just want a fuss. e.g oh , but you are good at that.....

and the other half can't be assed!!

most lads say wat they are, nothin over , or nothin under. but because of you ladies,it make us look like boastin pr@cks!

everyone dry yer eye's and cut the bu@~s?!t!

In reply to Steve (The Steve):

ha ha, eloquently put - good point about false modesty though.

In reply to CJD:

Ha! One of my friends had her arm stroked in a kindly manner with a 'don't worry, you'll meet someone soon' comment when she told a smug married party she was single last year!

My mother, however, would like me to remain single permanently yet somehow produce grandkids for her and bring them up in a 'normal' family environment. I have yet to work out how I am to do this.

Back to the OP. I think a lot of it is to do with not wanting to appear arrogant but also knowing full well that there might be someone in the room who is better than you at whatever it is you're bigging yourself up about. No-one wants to say I'm good at *that* only to have someone else turn round and say 'actually I'm better' (and prove it!).

In reply to wooblefish:
Reminds me of those t shirts that were trendy in the 90s or whenever, which said 'babe' or 'gorgeous' or 'stop looking at my t*ts' on them.

I never bought any because I could just see the humiliation of someone coming up to you and saying 'actually, you're a bit of a minger' or 'your t*ts are horrible'. It's like asking for criticism. If you put yourself out there, you'll get some nasty criticism generally. Like those poor deluded souls who go on the X factor or shows like that. I'm sure most people would rather spare themselves the humiliation.

In reply to Nao:

ha ha, I had one of those that said 'bird' on it 'cos I had short hair and no tits and was tall and kept getting mistaken for a bloke as a consequence. guffaw, she says nervously

In reply to CJD:

I'd be keen to hear views from anyone with a better knowledge of anthropology than mine (that'll be, er, anyone at all then ) - but anyway, my take is...
It could be some weird twist on biology and a dormant leftover from the "trophy wife" phenomenon. i.e. a perception that the "best" men still have some sort of guardian or collector instinct, and the notion that a potential mate could be independent and self-sufficient, is actually offputting. Thus, hide your light under a bushel.

I might be talking a load of pretentious twaddle, but it's not deliberate. Just semi-idle pondering.

In reply to CJD: men are better at bullshitting their way out of insecurities?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

>Just semi-idle pondering.

Watch it Kenny, you are morphing into CJD.

In reply to sutty: There still of alot of sexism in our socity its just better hidden. there less machoness in females as well. i climb with a young lady and when i see her climb i know see can do much better it seems she afraid to push her self maby a female belayer would be better with her, but we gud team most of the time

In reply to Nao:

Sorry Nao, but you miss the point - girls might have pressure put upon them to be thin & attractive, but men also have pressure to shape their bodies in a certain way. There are probably lots of guys out there with self esteem issues every bit as big as any woman, but guess what, they can't even talk about them as that makes them "less of a man" in the eyes of society. Each gender has their own compensations for lacking in other areas, but each gender thinks a little less of themselves for not having all those attributes which are expected in that gender.

In reply to CJD:

Ditto, if as a bloke, you don't have a woman, you're also a failure. Allegedly!!!..

In reply to Nao:
!

Wrong & to guys it's also a source of anxiety because they are meant to be the ones who are "the hunters" - ie going out looking for a mate & attracting them. But how can a guy do this if he doesn't have confidence in himself & he doesn't feel that he fits in with society's picture of a "desirable male" - then by not feeling himself to be attractive, he loses even more self esteem (by seeing himself as a failure at attracting women), and then by lacking in confidence - he's even less the picture of the 'desirable male'. And if he's honest & talks about it, then he's also seen as weak & undesirable to women.

In reply to prana:

We're expected to hide our insecurities as otherwise it makes us "less 'masculine'"!!!