UKC

was wondering maybe, in a given situation whether it was acceptable for two people to abseil down a route together on the same rope, counter balancing each other on the way down.(rather than going down one at a time)
im presuming there wouldnt be an issue with the rope strength ...anybody

In reply to colina: assuming a good anchor, perfectly fine.

In reply to colina:

That would be exactly the same principal as a simul-abseil.

You might find the logistics of both setting off at the same time without getting in each other's way rather interesting if you were both abseiling down the same line.

In reply to victim of mathematics: I've never tried it to be fair but my mates did and they mentioned it was rather awkward but you can gradually choose your own route so long as it isn't too over hanging! I can't see any benefit of it either...

In reply to higherclimbingwales: slightly quicker than abseiling seperately?

its a good way to get down off a pinnacle if there is no gear - one person on each side, just remember to stay on the rope until both people are down, best to arrange a shout beforehand for when your down, or some other way.

In reply to colina:

I don't understand - why bother doing that? You'd be increasing the strain on the anchor/s (never a good idea), and presenting a seriously tense rope to the second one down. So I don't see what you'd gain except a little time - is it worth it? Abseiling is dangerous enough as it is, so I wouldn't do it.

In reply to abseil:

Fairly common in North America on big routes, you're right though, more to go wrong, I've done it on rare occasions. I'd consider it if I had a tonne of abbing to do and was flapping about time (I think its less dangerous than abbing in the dark for instance).

Increasing strain to an anchor that can take orders of magnitude more isn't such a biggie though, if you're sure about the anchor. Don't get your point about the second one down.

In reply to colina:

Done it at Lower Sharpnose when the tide was coming in. One person on one side of the fin and one on the other. As has been said you just need to ensure that you are both down before unclipping from the rope.

ALC

In reply to colina:

The only piece of advice I don't see mentioned yet is you need additional care to be smooth in the abseil and to keep the rope weighted (don't stand on ledges too much on th eway down). The problem is that reducing the tension on one endallows the rope to shift and saw to and fro through the anchor. This can lead to fraying at the first edge that the rope runs over.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Thanks for your reply, and sorry about that. I mean the rope would be very tense, or tight, for the second abseiler (the person abseiling above the other one) - because the wieght of the first or lower abseiler would already be on the rope.

In reply to colina:

There was a nasty accident in the Verdon gorge some time ago. ONe climber reached the next belay bolts, clipped in and let go of the rope. Fine, except that as a result he dropped his partner to his death. Of course, a knot at the end of the rope would have stopped that, but that's how accidents happen.

In reply to abseil:

because the wieght of the first or lower abseiler would already be on the rope.

You abseil on seperate strands of the rope.

In reply to MJ:

Presumably the main problem is finding a two-man shunt system to protect both climbers?


Seriously, this is pretty common on big multipitch routes if you need to get off in a hurry. If there are chains you get get a good rhythm of both clipping the chain (before you unweight the rope), untying the knot tying the ends of the two ropes together (to prevent anyone going of the end)feeding the (correct) rope through the chain as you pull it down from the last one, each transferring and unclipping from the chain.

Not sure I'd be so relaxed about doing it somewhere seriously steep, but on big slabs, for instance, it's actually quite good fun.

In reply to colina:

This type of abseiling is pretty standard stuff on the pre-equipped abseil pistes in the Wetterstein, Karwendel, Kaisergebirge etc. There it's a case of multiple abseils, usually down steep or very steep rock and often in chimney or gully systems, where the whole point is to get down as quickly as possible - especially if there's stonefall danger from following parties.

I've done it a multitude of times and if you take all the obvious precautions, as explained earlier in the thread, then it's very quick and effective means of descent when circumstances dictate the need for speed.

Dave

In reply to colina:

Handy if you both only have a GriGri (and, as said above, the anchor is bomber).

In reply to colina:

It might be interesting for a Laurel and Hardy style pair!

I know people do it but I reckon that if you have to ask the question it is probably best to avoid, until you have the whole abseiling routine well covered anyway.

In reply to colina: I can certainly see an advantage to doing it if there is a chance of rock fall thus if you both go at the same time you're not kicking rocks off on to who goes first. Also if the weather is coming in fast and you need to get off quick then it might be useful but I'd have thought that the risks of getting in each other's way etc would out weigh the standard I go then you go system. I Imagine it's much easier to do with a scared beginner who would possibly get stuck through panic if you went first.

Like most things I think its a technique that if used in the right context is very efficent and safer than standard practise but I wouldn't make it the standard way to abseil and would weigh up the pros and cons of doing it at every opportunity.

In reply to BALD EAGLE: A perfect example of usage! love it.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

So then the rope dislodges a rock. It hits your partner. He lets go of the rope and falls to his death (as you'd been in a hurry and hadn't faffed around with prussiks). The un-counterbalanced rope now flies through the anchor (as of course, the knot was on your side) and you fall to your own death.

Just joking of course. But I really don't think it's any quicker on multiple abseils...

In reply to JTM: I'd have hoped, seeing that no one is tailing the rope, that you'd be using an autoblock.

In reply to JTM:

I think it works best on big slabs where there are regular, easily threaded chains and you can see where you are going. And are strongly motivated by being 15 pitches up as the rain starts to bucket down...

In reply to colina:

A regular method of getting off sea-stacks without leaving tat behind. Simultaneous abseil down opposite sides.

In reply to colina:

No issue with rope strength. It's not uncommon in Yosemite where the belays are generally good rings and the descents are time consuming but generally straightforward.

It's one of those techniques that's not especially well suited to our short, generally quite complex cliffs but one that can offer a decent time saving in the right environment.

The most common use of simultaneous counterbalance abbing in the uk is to get off pinnacles/blocks/fins where there are inadequate belays, the rope is simply draped over the feature then one person goes off each side. Obviously this can require considerable care and good communication to do safely (or it can be pretty straightforward, it depends on the available features).

jk

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I did cover that bit in my scenario.
A variation is of course that your friend survives his fall - only to have you land on top of him, killing him instantly.

In reply to abseil:

You heven't really thought this through, have you?

In reply to abseil:

Both climber's weight their side of the rope before anyone starts, so both climbers experience the same thing, a tight rope above them, which doesn't really affect things. Obviously the rope below each abseiler is slack.

In reply to John Ww:

No. I'm extremely thick. But I like your smiley face at the end (letting me off)

In reply to abseil:

No. I'm extremely thick. But I like your smiley face at the end (letting me off)

Perhaps you should change your name to "abseil apprentice"?

In reply to MJ:

Thanks very much, but no. 'Reading apprentice' or 'Paying attention apprentice' I could accept. (I estimate I've done 400+++ abseils. But I ain't no gud att weading caerphuly, 'n witing 2)

In reply to colina: thanks for everyones input .appreciated