UKC

Doing some snowboard-mountaineering next week and might do a couple of routes which require a short abseil into the start. Doesn't seem to be any need to carry a belay device for one short abseil.

I've never abseiled on an Italian Hitch before, is there any problem doing this with two ropes/one doubled rope so that the rope can be recovered?

Might not bother depending how long the descent is, but I'm guessing a prussik back-up would be best placed above the abseil krab connected to the belay loop on a short sling rather than below it and connected to the leg loop (since braking with an Italian hitch requires the dead rope to be lifted up rather than down)?

In reply to stevomcd:

Something to note is that it can turn your rope into something resembling one long curly pig's tail.

In reply to stevomcd:

Most important thing to remember about and italian hitch - it locks off differently to a belay plate.

In reply to Jimmy D:

Yeah, I know about the twisting effect, but I figured it would be OK for a short abseil.

In reply to stevomcd:

How heavy is your belay device?

Might be best just to do what you are familiar with, for the sake of a few grams.

In reply to Joss:

Yeah, that was my initial thought as well. There's something very mountaineer-y about an Italian hitch though, looks impressive to punters...

In reply to stevomcd:
I've done this and it was fine.

In reply to stevomcd:

If you're taking a prusik and spare krab, you'd be better off taking a belay plate instead - altogther a more satisfactory arrangement

In reply to nniff:

I'd take a prussik and a spare krab to use with a belay plate as well!

In reply to stevomcd: If you do ab on the Italian Hitch, it is (I would have thought) common sense to make sure that neither rope rubs on the screw on the gate of the karabiner with the potential of forcing the gate open. This has happened to me but thankfully I realised before it was too late.

Ben

In reply to BenTiffin:
I once dropped my belay plate from Pitch 2 of the Comici on the Cima Grande. Belayed the rest on an Italian hitch, but foolishly then tried to ab down the descent with it..totally twisted the ropes.

In reply to stevomcd:

The Italian Hitch works fine for a short ab in an emergency eg. dropped belay plate. I think everyone should also know how to make a karabiner brake (from four krabs or two screwgate krabs) for longer and/or multiple abseils without a descendeur or belay plate. Also, every climber should at least know how to do a classic abseil, in very unlikely event that all gear (except the rope!) gets dropped.

In reply to stevomcd:

Why not just abseil by passing the rope through the krab then up around your shoulder and diagonally across your back, holding it with a gloved hand behind and in front? That's the way we all used to abseil before these gadgets came along... in thick ski gear you'll have plenty of friction and no fear of rope burns.

In fact if you want to go a step further use a traditional abseil, no need for krab, harness or slings, just the rope. Look for any grey haired old codger puffing up a path below the next crag you visit and ask him for details... you may have to shout a bit if his hearing aid has a flat battery!

In reply to stevomcd:
Can't a problem. Did it for years, needs a tight grip on a single 9mm rope but other wise no problems even on overhanging stuff. Did have a twist lock krab start to undo once with frozen double ropes once but generally ok.

In reply to stevomcd:

If it's just short doing a south african classic abseil would work. Especially if it's not too steep although I've used it on short steep (almost overhanging) as well.

Most new instructional books explain it. It's fairly comfortable and has a harness feel to it, unlike the normal classic abseil. It does require two strands of rope which it sounds like you have.

To set it up stand between the two ropes, cross them behind your back so that there is a rope on either side of you going forward. Step over each of these strands so both go between your leg and out behind you. Hold them both in your dominant hand and use this to control the friction. As you go down the strands going up to the anchor go up under your arms and make it feel secure.

I'd practice on some stairs or a grass slope first but it is easy. I hope the description isn't too confusing but looking a picture in a book should make it clear straight away.

As I said before, unlike the classic classic abseil this one is surprisingly comfortable. You don't even need to take any gear except the rope, not even a harness.

Obviously if you don't understand what I'm talking about it or don't feel happy with it don't use it.

mehmet

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

I'm probably being fantastically dim, but I really can't follow these instructions. Please explain further. (Are there any diagrams anywhere?) It sounds really useful.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Needlesport have clog or sticht plates for about £6, light enough to carry for spare use.

Karabiner brake, wonder how that will work nowadays with wiregate krabs, ok with solid gate ones.

Italian hitch, useful for a short ab but would twist the roeps so much the time wasted untwisting the ropes before pulling down would put me off using it on an alpine route if I had the option to carry a belay plate.

If abbing down a steep snow slope I might just use a classic abseil, little discomfort there as your weight is not totally on the rope.

In reply to sutty:



I could be showing my ignorance here but why would a wire gate make much of a difference? If you use a screw gate for the once you actually attach to your harness then doesn't the brake actually depend on the back bar of the krabs? I thought this was the reason you could use some pitons or whatever else that's vaguely the right shape for the job?

mehmet

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Hi,

I know the instructions weren't very good. I'm sorry for that.

I tried a quick search on google before I posted for some diagrams but couldn't find any. It's described in the new "Hill Walking" book by Steve Long, "The Mountain Skills Training Handbook" by Stuart Johnston and Pete Hill as well as "The International Handbook of Technical Mountaineering" by Pete Hill. It's the method the Mountain Leader Training Scheme now shows in its training courses.

Yes I find it very useful and have used it particularly on the Cuillin.

I'm trying to think of another way to describe it. I'll post this but if I think of a better description I'll add that later. All I can really say is it's in the books I've mentioned.

Sorry for not being more helpful,
mehmet

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Is this explanation any clearer? This was a joint effort with my girlfriend:

Stand between the ropes facing uphill. Pass each strand of rope under one armpit. Cross them across your back and bring them back around to your front by your hips so that they are on opposite sides from where they started and the dead ends pointing uphill. Then pass the ropes in front of your thighs and bring them together in front of you. Pass both ropes between your legs so they come out behind you. Hold onto these to control your speed.

It sounds complicated, but is actually very easy if you can see it! Unfortunately only using words I'm struggling....

mehmet

In reply to stevomcd:

I've abseiled on an Italian Hitch plenty of times. It's fine. I don't think it matters too much which way you rig the prussik, as long as it doesn't impede your hand movement.

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

Thanks - that's a far, far clearer explanation. Will get some rope out in the morning to try it.

In reply to John Alcock:

My girfriend dropped her belay plate on the start of the Cassin on the Badlie, I had to belay a;ll the way on an Italian hitch, but I used a kRAB BRAKE ON THE ABSEILS DOWN THE RIDGE.far preferable, sorry cant be bothered to type it again.

In reply to Mehmet Karatay: I dont think I'd fancy that on a free hanging abseil, Ouch.

In reply to stevomcd: Put the rope around your back lad. Then you dont need a harness too.

In reply to Al Evans: A very experienced Jim Perrin abseiled down Red Wall classic style, I believe he still has the scars Sorry if you dont Jim.

In reply to Al Evans:

No I don't think I fancy it on a free abseil either, but on steep stuff where you can still use your feet a bit it's okay. I've used it on very steep ground before but that was only a 4m step or so.

Going off the description in the original post though it sounds like the ideal solution in this case.

It can be surprisingly comfortable, the only problem on steep stuff tends to be under your armpits! Doing it with a rucksac on can also help. Attempting a normal classic abseil (i.e only need one strand of rope) I haven't even been able to commit to it on a moderate slope... so this is far better than that in my opinion.

mehmet

In reply to Al Evans:

Oooh, I remember that long scar across his back, never knew if he got it abbing or using a shoulder belay to hold a fall.

One of the KMC lads held a fall off Diagonal with one, but got a big lump of flesh removed from where the rope went round his wrist. 80 ft fall, impressive save.

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

Just out of curiosity; which bits of the ridge did you employ the South African on? I've only used it on grade I/II snow and would be interested to know how much further you can go with it.

It's definately a big improvement on the old "classic" which was still the favoured method when I did ny ML assessment at Glenmore. I'll always remember the instructor seeing the gloves that I was about to put on and suggesting that they'd be more useful stuffed down my trousers. He was right.

In reply to Jamie B.:

I used to use the classic method quite regularly on easy ground and short descents until I tried it once in a hot area... when wearing shorts and a tee-shirt even lowering myself off a 20 foot bit of vertical rock was rather painful no matter how slowly I lowered myself!

It's at such moments that you realise the true worth of moleskin breeches and a thick pullover

In reply to Jamie B.:


I used it after lowering some friends down the step on Am Basteir when going up from the ridge from the east. They wouldn't have been happy down climbing and the rope was already out. I've also used it on some of the steps in Coire Ghrunda when coming out of there at night in the wet. There have been steep occasions, but usually never very long. Probably around 5m if steep, but I've done if for longer (20m?) on easier slabs (e.g. Ghrunda).

When I did my summer ML it was what was shown/assessed and we went over it again for the winter ML training. I've never really been able to brave the "classic" classic abseil. I like the glove idea. It does have the advantage of only needing a single strand of rope though, although I can't imaging that being needed unless things are dire.

mehmet

In reply to Mehmet Karatay:

It does actually work quite well but is probably more suited to pre-synthetic fibre clothing... thick cotton breeches, wool pullovers and canvas rucksacks, all of which resist the friction heat a lot better than nylon. Also in cool environments, no good at all when in shorts or light shirts.

In reply to stevomcd:

Unless weight is a MAJOR issue, I'd be tempted to say just take your belay device. Italian hitch's are notoriously harsh on ropes and also quite difficult to use on double ropes...