UKC

Hi,

I'm doing research on BAME climbers for a film. If you're of BAME background could I ask you a few questions about your experience of being outdoors and a member of the climbing community? 

Thank you! 

Jan 

UKC published a lot of resources here a few years back:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/black_lives_matter_-_resources...

That’s cracking! Cheers for posting it. 

Thought the term BAME was out of vogue these days, isn't there a more trendy label to be used?

Expand. 

Actually, don't.

There was a great short vid through Epic TV some time back that featured Trevor Messiah which covered his experience of climbing regarding race. Whilst I'm sure it's not the case for all, his personal reflections on the outdoor community were very positive. It could be another string for your work. Best of luck.

Edit: found it! Racism In Climbing And Society | Climbing Daily Ep.1742

I can relay a second hand account if of any interest. But it's more of why this individual doesn't participate in outdoor activities. Not sure if it ties in with what you are doing.

So I was chatting with a black guy at work, and we got onto a conversation of why there are so few people of colour participating in activities like climbing, skiing etc.

His take was that growing up (Nigeria) where healthcare was expensive and less reliable, you would get into a lot of trouble by your mother if you did anything so reckless and unnecessary like rock climbing.

Now this chap spent his later teens in the UK, but that mentality still influences his choices, and he suspects it will do for a few generations as he doesn't value these activities as they were frowned upon growing up so he will likely pass it on to his kids.

I hadn't heard that argument before and thought it was interesting.

He also had similar discussions in a longer format on Mina and Hazel's Curious Climber podcast:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xMTU2ZWYzMC9wb2...

Nice one! I'll check it out. 

Thank you! 

Interesting angle to look at it. Thank you for the post!

Hi Jan

I suggest you contact the excellent ColourUp Bristol https://linktr.ee/colourupbristol which describes itself as a social club for global majority climbers. I ran into them out climbing last summer - lovely and friendly

Nice one! I'll check them out. 

It might also be worth your while getting in touch with United We Climb: https://unitedweclimb.com/

I don't like getting involved in Forums, but this is a topic that sometimes comes up and bothers me a bit, which may explain why I could be reading too much into your simple request. I would be keen in helping but you may not get the responses you are looking for. 

As a non-white I can't speak for all non-white people, obviously, but if we are just talking about recreational climbing, why is there so much focus and 'white guilt' for the lack of non-white people in the outdoors? Ultimately, why does it matter?

In the context of recreational climbing, for me personally, the day we stop talking about 'BAME climbers', or whatever other new acronym, and just talk about 'climbers' is the day when race doesn't matter.

For example, I am interested to hear about the stories and adventures someone as experienced as Trevor Messiah must have, from putting up new routes all over the world, but as the "token black guy" each interview I come across ends up being a discussion about race...

Climbing is fundamentally a non-essential activity and a choice (if you have the means) with no real extrinsic value. People can choose to do what they like in their free time. So in my view, lack of diversity in climbing doesn't matter. It's not the same as fair opportunities, access to higher education, fair pay, fair treatment by police etc. which are real issues/barriers people face - those do matter

I’d say that depends on the reasons behind it. 

I can’t speak from any personal experience, but some who can have spoken about how being “colour blind” isn’t necessarily helpful in a society where race is still associated with outcomes and opportunities. This is just the first example I found:

https://ideas.ted.com/why-saying-i-dont-see-race-at-all-just-makes-racism-w... 

We don't use BAME in my workplace any more, as it's not considered sensitive to name one minority and then lump the rest together.

We use terms like minority ethnic instead, to be more inclusive.

My reply was triggered more by the use of ‘trendy’ and the apparent spirit it was in. 

FWIW I’ve never used BAME partly for the reasons you described. It’s a bit like ‘coloured’ which has always stunk of generalised othering to me.

Whilst I agree with the above, it won’t be achieved with this view….

Climbing is way more diverse than it used to be, especially in terms of gender and sexuality, and I’d argue this is in part due to recognising barriers and trying to address them (eg specific clubs).  I’ve no hard evidence as to why people from ethnic backgrounds are less likely to go climbing, but just saying it’s though choice ignores many of the possible/probable barriers (eg. cash, the appearance it’s for the middle classes)

Just saying that I agree. 

Hi Flavio. Top post of the year so far. I imagine my daughter would strongly agree with you. 

White bloke telling non-white bloke that he is wrong about his non-white bloke experiences.

If you clicked on the link you’d find it is a black woman sharing a different opinion about solutions to the non-white bloke. Heavens forbid!

person disagreeing with person for expressing anecdote/opinion.

Being able to empathise with someone who has a different experience to you is one of the amazing abilities that make us human. By your logic I shouldn't be able to offer suggestions and advice to my wife on matters that are unique to her gender. This is of course total nonsense.

I fully agree with what Flavio said. I would hope that if I was a minority in some activity I would hold similar views. But by your logic, I can't agree with him, I can only accept his word. 

This is not how you create a community of mutual respect.

The idea that we can only discuss Flavio's views subject to your race is an incredibly divisive view to hold. I guess we should also ignore what Anson Chan in said Stuart's linked article as she's the wrong gender.

You either think SW is the white bloke (but SW isn’t telling anyone anything), or you think the author of that piece is a white bloke. Which is it ?  

Fascinating isn’t it. I clocked this straight away, and thought I’d let the conversation run a bit to ‘read the room.’  

Read out of context like that sounds pretty awful doesn't it!?

My point is that lack of non-white faces in climbing (i.e.. messing about on rock/plastic for fun) is not a problem or something to feel guilty about. 

As you say climbing is now more diverse than it was, which is great, but that is also a consequence of being far more popular that it used to, so naturally it will have more minorities participating. If you surveyed the climbing community elsewhere, say India, you will get a different picture.

Initiatives that encourages non-white people outdoors are great but they address the 'effect', not the 'cause'. Like it or not, climbing is predominantly a middle class pastime. The main and biggest barrier is the amount of disposable income one has to pursue a recreation. 

Personally, I've had a few chances to try climbing as a child and at university, and as with many things throughout my early life, despite being curious and keen, I couldn't - not because of my skin colour, simply because I could not afford it. 

That's life innit, but unable to pay to try 'messing about on rock/plastic for fun' was not a hurdle to me becoming a functioning member of society. Italy's xenophobic lack of 'Jus soli' laws or lack of access to university grants/hardship funds on the other hand were for me. Those were the 'cause' and barriers for me to accessing climbing in my later life. Now that I'm a graduate, employed and middle class the 'effect' is that my brown face goes climbing with my disposable income. 
 

I think you are oversimplifying. If the makeup of the climbing community had not changed, and that the percentage of minority ethnic and female participants has always been the same, you would have a point, but that is self evidently not true.

You're right, in that more people are climbing than ever before and that intrinsically brings with it more participation from all quarters, but the percentage of, say, female participation, is significantly higher than it was ten, twenty, thirty years ago - and it's not just because women suddenly decided out of the blue that they wanted to start climbing.

Wife’s literally this second just walked back in from an NMC racism training session and exclaimed that the new term is ‘global majority’. I asked about lumping all non-whites together as being somewhat racist in itself and she shrugged her shoulders.

I’ll focus on your original point as I reckon this is the nub of the debate: 

“why is there so much focus and 'white guilt' for the lack of non-white people in the outdoors? Ultimately, why does it matter.”

This is why, for me, it matters:  ‘Back in the day’ I’ve taken loads of people from different ethnic backgrounds out climbing (I was an outdoor instructor), and they enjoyed it just as much as anyone else. So why the tail off?  Barriers exist, cash/poverty, cultural (possible a separate discussion as some cultures can be oppressive (eg look at treatment of women in Iran for an extreme example, but similar happens here but on a less violent scale)), low uptake of sport and health recreation and the appearance of ‘it’s for the white middle classes’. And no doubt other barriers exist. I have a strong personal value of equality and of equality of access. The very low numbers of people from non white and ethnic backgrounds simply doesn’t sit easily with me. I’ve been thinking whether or not this is a ‘problem’, and have decided for me it is a problem.  The actual number AND proportion of women climbers has increased, and it does appear that more people from ethnic backgrounds are going hillwalking, probably due to some of the work done by specific hillwalking groups. This is brilliant. And I’d like climbing to go the same way.   I’ve gained huge amounts of  ‘stuff’ from climbing and would like to think others can also get similar benefits and enjoyment. And I don’t think it will if we go ‘we need to simply accept it’s a middle class sport and people can choose to join in if they want’.  A whole bunch of factors mean that for many it isn’t really a choice. 

You mention ‘white guilt’.  There isn’t a great deal of focus on ‘white guilt’.  Maybe one thread a year looking at ethnic minority participation. And no one is saying that we should feel ‘guilty’. I don’t. Like you say, the causes which result in things like lack of cash for some people will not be solved on this forum. 

That's genuinely great to hear, if you encouraged people from different ethnic backgrounds to enjoy the outdoors that can only be a good thing. But presumably these minorities you worked with also had the spare income to spend on an instructor to try out climbing. That is not feasible for everyone, regardless of race. Climbing is expensive.

So what if others do not get the same enjoyment as we do when we go climbing and decide to do something else. I took my brother climbing and he did not like it at all, but at least had the opportunity to find out. It comes off as patronising (not having a go at you btw) to suggest that people are missing out, what if they get more enjoyment from other things? The important thing is everyone has the opportunity and means to find out for themselves. I don't think we are there yet and its an issue bigger and more important than climbing.

I was working at an outdoor centre, and no cost for the young people who had to suffer my instruction!

Agreed. 

I’m afraid this absolutely doesn’t follow. To see what I mean, look at cricket: very popular with South Asians but a culture of racism means there are far fewer brown faces high up in the sport than we’d expect. Climbing is more diverse now than it has ever been at least in part because there has been an effort to make it so. 

Are climbing shoes really much more expensive than football boots? Is a trip to the wall more expensive than other sporting activities? Are most Britons so poor they can’t afford leisure pursuits? 

Or… are there other factors besides simply money than might have an effect?

It’s pretty much what I expected to be honest.

I actually thought that people on the thread would try and engage with what Flavio said as he gives a rare insight into how a black climber perceives the climbing world, etc.
Instead, we get people like yourself essentially discounting what he says by posting a random link to a academic study to back-up your side of the discussion.

Thanks for coming out and sharing your take.
I think a lot of people will agree that's the dream, we're not there yet and it's still a thing, so might as well talk/discuss/make films about it. The juicy discussion on this thread is evidence that this is a topic that people have interesting views about.
I'd agree though that the more significant barrier to climbing is socioeconomic class... which is linked to race, so, hmm. 

-

When you do a callout on UKC you're going to be speaking to people who are already climbers, the already converted. Shame there's no easy way to speak to the people who maybe tried climbing out or wanted to, but never got into it - find out whether race played any part in that.

Rightly or wrongly, the decision to share a difference of opinion re. not talking about race/racism via a very brief post and a link to a TED Talk was because I was expecting a response like yours.

I’m not interested in an argument about what sort of person can share an opinion, so I’ll leave you to it. Have a good evening.

Flavio, if you did feel discounted or disregarded then I apologise. That wasn’t my intention.

Edit: “This is just the first example I found” was probably very poor phrasing, I accept that. I didn’t mean that to sound like I was trying to drown anyone out, I was trying to say that I wasn’t suggesting the author to be the authority on the matter. As I say, probably a poor choice of words there. 

 No one is discounting Flavio's experience, but by his own admission he does not claim to represent every minority. 

A conclusion made from statistical evidence is always going to be more reliable than one made from anecdote, regardless of who it is that provides it.

Yes, it is a oversimplification, there are other factors at play (e.g. cultural) that change the balance.

Equally I think you are oversimplifying too. Initiatives encouraging women in climbing (dealing with the 'effect') should be encouraged, but can't take all the credit for increased women participation, despite not being a minority, in the last 10, 20, 30 years. There has been some changes in western society going on in parallel, towards gender equality and shifts in mentality (changes to the 'cause') that has allowed some women to have the choice and the means to consider taking up an activity like climbing.
 

That could be because we may have a different idea of what recreational climbing is (which is fine), that's all I'm talking about here, not the higher levels of sport like professional cricket. To me outdoor recreational climbing in principle is no different to going down the park to kick a football or bat a ball with your friends, for fun. In general practice however, you can't just go down to the park to climb.

Compared to climbing, yes, those activities have lower costs (you need more than climbing shoes to be safe climbing outdoors or access an indoor wall). Many in the UK are poor enough to rely on food banks, so I don't think leisure pursuits are on their priorities. 

"By your logic I shouldn't be able to offer suggestions and advice to my wife on matters that are unique to her gender. This is of course total nonsense".

You are right, & it is is nonsense.  You also have vastly bigger 'nads than me & I hope you survive the results of your courage.