UKC

So who are they?

I believe OTE have made a list this month.

Anyone care to spill the beans?

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Well - it's not me!

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Trad climbers only. Can't remember the list but there didn't appear to be any surprises.

In reply to mich:

Nor me - I'm making a determined play to be the absolute worst. Truthfully!

In reply to GrahamD:

What......cragging trad, big wall, alpine, and mountain?

Mick

(In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)

Being a boulderer doesn't count of course...

Don't know if she's in the list but Gemma Powell onsighted to the last (reachy) move of an 8a at an indoor comp in Bristol this last weekend...

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

UK rock trad climbers, all the usual suspects were there. Interesting to note that standards haven't moved on since Glenda did the Bells, in fact standards have failed to even approach that again really. Karen Magog, Lucy Creamer and Glenda have all onsighted E7 but surprising that most of the list consisted of women who had done a few classic E5s (as did Jill Lawrence in the early eighties).

In reply to Tyler:

Sorry Tyler, who are the usual suspects?

Where big wall and alpine ascents included as well as single-pitch uk trad?

M

In reply to Ian Hill:


Has she done much on the Ben?

If we're talking all-round ability (trad E5 on-sight, Scottish VII, remote big-wall A4s) then surely Louise Thomas is the finest woman climber we've produced. Doubt if she'd want to define herself in such terms though.

JAMIE B>

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

The women mentioned in the article are:

Jill Lawrence
Geraldine Taylor
Felicity Butler
Glenda Huxter
Lucy Ellis
Alison Cowley
Lucy Creamer
Karin Magog
Anne Arran
Airlie Anderson
Kath Pyke
Ruth Jenkins
April Marr
Angela Soper
Louise Thomas
Katherine Schirrmacher
Tanya Holdsworth
Francis Taylor
Emma Alsford
Alison Martindale
Debbie Birch
Emma Twyford
Jemma Powell

I think that to make the list you must have done trad E4 or above.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

Surely there's more than that have led E4? Pretty horified to see that there's not a single resident Scot on the list.

JAMIE B>

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

Thanks Stefan.

So it was a historical piece as well as touting today's creme de la creme.

So who came out tops in the present day?

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:



Mick, you're shameless. Lucy Creamer had a plump looking ticklist, as did Karen Magog.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:


It wasn't really an attempt of a ranking per se, more an overview of who's been doing hard trad over the years. Also don't think there were any claims of the list being exhaustive. Unusually good read by OTE standards, I thought.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Come on Stuart, if you are going to have an article about the UK's best you'd better state who is actually the best, or who has achieved the most according to their peers.

So are there any Beth Roddens, Lynn Hills, or Josune's emerging?

Mick

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

That list is complete bollox if it goes as far back as Jill Lawrence.

There were loadsa women around in the late 80s doing hard stuff. E4s were common, as were E5s and early ascents of some big slate E6's.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Sad to see no Jo Gordon or Leah Crane. It was a bit like 3 years ago when Simon Triger won The Edge League, followed closely by Justin Plumptre and all the photos and comments were focussed on the stars they beat.....

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

How are you going to compare them Mick? Some have done E4 on grit, some on big wall routes which to me are much more impressive.
There is also a huge age difference, some are old enough to be the grandmothers of some of the younger ones, much more impressive than doing E4 at 20.

Jamie, Jo George should probably be in there but you know OTE, it is Sheffield based and they do not know what men in skirts and their counterparts do.

In reply to Jamie B.:


April Marr is Scottish, isn't she?

In reply to sutty:


What? Women in trousers?!?

In reply to sutty:


True, but the author of the article isn't based in Sheffield.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Jemma Powell
Emma Twyford
Rosie Shaw
Leah Crane
Katie Hill
Hazel Findlay
Katy Whittaker
Sammy Hawker
Natty Berry
Charlie Davis
Shauna Coxsea
All have a realistic chance

In reply to Phil K:

As I said, the list wasn't claiming to be exhaustive, but selective.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:


I have lead E4 only one mind but i havent even been climbing properly for 2 years, I will have been lead climbing for two years this september.
Don't get me wrong i'm not trying to say that i am anywhere near as good as those girls but you don't have to be an excellent female climber to lead E4 you just have to have a good head and reasonable ability.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

You mean selectively researched.

How was the Eye Candy, Stefan. Good pics?

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Does twice british Champion and flashing E5 count?

In reply to sutty:

I dont think it has much to do with age unles you mean over 50 ish, it should be more to do with how long they have been climbing

In reply to Luisa Giles:

I agree, it has nothing to do with age: we are talking best UK women irrespective of age. But I disagree with the relevence of how long you have been climbing. Climbing hard soon or at age are impressive, but we are talking best performance surely?

M

In reply to Lucinda Hughes:

I would have thought so. Depends where you put the cut-off point.

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Yes i know what you mean but i would be more impressed by someone leading the same grade as another if they had only been climbing for half the time

Reading more carefully, the list was for E5 or harder, on-sight, and not E4 as I said earlier.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:


Maybe - the author (Lucy Ellis) ends with the comment:

"Apologies in advance to the women that have slipped through the net - I really did do my best to track down everyone who'd climbed E5 (and harder). If I missed you out, let me know"


Pictures of

Alison Martindale - Survival of the Fastest
Fliss Butler - Lord of the Flies
Debbie Birch - Profit of Doom
Glenda Huxter - Killer Kranky
Katherine Schirrmacher - [portrait]
Louise Thomas - Run Fast, Run Free
Karin Magog - [portrait]
Emma Alsford - Star Truck
Silvia Fitzpatrick - The Warpath

In reply to Luisa Giles:

so would I.....but then again it depends doesn't it.

zero to E5 leader in a year: full time climber and single

zero to E5 leader in five years: part-time climber and mother

?

M

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

Sounds like a great article. Must get a copy.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: how many US women would get in given similar grade requirements?

In reply to Luisa Giles: very impressive Luisa but it is all too easy to clock up big E numbers on bold grit routes, aim to get fit and do some real hard and sustained climbing for a real e4 tick.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Hard to say. There's more women climbing over here. The equivalent to flashing E5 would be flashing anything from 5.11a to 5.12 depending on the gear.

I've seen and heard of quite a few who do that.

M

I think everyone should take this 'list' with a massive pinch of salt. I do not agree with lists and I would hope that the article was supposed to give a status quo rather than who is better than who.
Its already caused plenty of discussion within the female climbers I know and not that great a response. We don't want to be put on lists. Just saying who has led E5 says nothing - nothing from how many of this grade to on how many different rock types.
My only hope is that it inspires loads of girls out there to get going - to try and push themselves.
And yes, I know plenty of really good climbers who aren't on that list - but do other kinds of climbing other than trad (which this article concentrates on).

In reply to Jamie B.:

Think you'll find April Marr is pretty Scottish, living in Edinburgh.

In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:


What about shopping lists Katherine? Very useful.

To do lists? Essential?

Life's big tick list? Engaging.

M

In reply to Jon Greengrass:


Patronising tw*t

In reply to Tyler: Thank you for that constructive comment

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Well I would say he has a point, although at the same time so do you (albeit hidden in a mess of patronising guff)

In reply to Tyler:

so who's going to tell Neil and Neil etc that they should get out and do some hard sustained climbing to get a 'real' E10 tick?

In reply to Ian Hill: We all play different games, could they climb 9a?

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
Don't understand your point. Is it a good one? Am I really missing out? Or should I just not worry about it too much?

In reply to Nik at work: i'd worry about it

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
OK, I'm officially worrying starting from.....




NOW.

Please explain your point in words of one syllable such that a dimwit like myself may be able to marvel at your wisdom oh great one.

In reply to Katherine Schirrmacher:

In fairness the list was headed "Women who have climbed E5 onsight" not a top 10 or whatever and the players were listed chronologically.


This, I think is a bit unfair. We often hear that womens climbing is under represented in the UK mags so I would have thought this was just the sort of article that was required, a celebration of womens climbing achievements, not focusing on any single individual. Surely this is better than some tokenism or using shots of women just because they are women. Can't really see what there is to object to, these things can't really be expected to be 100% accurate and if the odd, media shy E5 leader has slipped beneath the radar its not really Lucy's fault.


I agree with your latter point, but the most significant achievements were listed. Surely if it was more comprehensive (who's done what and how many) then you would be in danger of objectifying women into who's better than who way you object to in your paragraph above.


Don't really see your point here, this was an article about trad climbing so people whos strengths lie in other areas will, rightly, be excluded.

In reply to Tyler:


So it was a list.

M

In reply to Luisa Giles:

I don't want to bonfire on your urine, Luisa, but Parallel Piped is totally overgraded at E4, more like E2, or, at an absolutely desparate push, E3 if you are tiny.

G

In reply to jon:


Not true, OTE is Buxton based, that's not just a different place it's in a different county.

In reply to Graham: look at her profile properly, she is tiny..but the grade is there so she can claim it still

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Eh? What? Why is this significant? It's an article and in it is a list headed "women who have climbed E5 on sight". If you're that interested speak to Lucy about it, like you haven't already. Come on mick if you're trying to stir up contorversy on her behalf you'll have to try harder.

In reply to Tyler:
Rachel Carr head pointed the Aaardvark and the Ferret at Avon a couple of years ago after I think less than 2 years climbing. It's given E7 in the current guidebook though may drop to E6 in the new one.
Has Nell(Crispin's better half) yet on-sighted E5?

Well I think Lucy deserves a pat on the back, but as usual some people will complain. To those that complain...... if you can do better - shut up and prove it!! You pick up a pen... I don't recall any articles by the complainer!

It was so nice to pick up OTE and find something that I actually wanted to read, that had me interested, I read every word and wanted more. Surely that's a good article !

Keep it up Lucy, I hope your having fun if your still out in the states and now doubt kicking arse !

In reply to Tyler:


Not at all. Stir up discussion yes, not controversy, that'll take care of itself.

Articles are published in the magazines and I think that it is very healthy that what is written is discussed and debated.

This is the place for that discussion as letter pages are very selective and edited.

I'm sure Lucy E and OTE magazine appreciate the publicity though. Indeed they stimulated the debate, but thankfully have no control over it.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

There are some real backbiters on this thread, why not discuss things instead of kicking off on things you know the square route of sod all about. Some women have climbed consistently hard for 20 years or more, some are like comets in the sky, passing over never to be seen again when the competition palls.

Just encourage the ones you see to do their best, the same you do with your mates.

In reply to sutty:

I thought Katherine's post was very relevent especially as she was mentioned in the article.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Lucy Creamer kicks ass, shes a damn good climber at everything she trys and is a very nice person too!!

gee hark at me!!!

In reply to Graham:

In your opinion of course. Belittling the efforts of others to boost your ego, pathetic.

g

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Read the article on the train last night. It was particularly topical as I had just spent the weekend climbing with one of those on the list.

I thought it was good and well researched, but as with all climbing articles I hope it will inspire people to get out climbing.

Following on from an earlier point, I am much more inspired when I read of people (male or female) 20+ years my senior climbing E5 than those 10 years my junior. That really does give me something to aspire to. What relevence to me is it if some teenager has just headpointed an E7?

A few OTE articles about those who are climbing harder than ever in their forties and fifties would undoubtably give an awful lot of us encouragement to keep training and pushing our grade.

Mark

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

>very impressive Luisa but it is all too easy to clock up big E numbers on bold grit routes,

Is that right? How come you haven't done it?

>aim to get fit and do some real hard and sustained climbing for a real e4 tick.

Do you know, I don't think I can improve on Tyler's comment. You're a patronising tw*t.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

They actually wanted to interview me about this, but I had to point out that a) I have a penis (of sorts), and b) I'm shit at climbing.
I have top roped the promenade at birchens though.

In reply to Mark Stevenson: I'm available for interview whenever...

In reply to Gruff:

Actually, f*ckwit, it's the only E4 I've succesfully headponted, my best on sight being E2, and having failed on many others which IMHO deserve the grade, so I'm belittling myself. Try Oss Nob next door if you don't agree, or just think about Downhill Racer, or Calvary, or Old Friends.

Stick that up your self righteous arse.



G

In reply to Gruff:

>I don't want to bonfire on your urine, Luisa, but Parallel Piped is totally overgraded at E4, more like E2, or, at an absolutely desparate push, E3 if you are tiny.

And for f*cking good measure arsewipe, read the above again. I'm commenting on the grade of the route not Luisa's climbing ability or achievments. Looking at the list of routes she's done, she climbs a good bit harder than myself.

G

In reply to Graham:

Suck my dick Graham.

g

In reply to Gruff:

I wouldn't notice if you shoved in in my mouth.

Weeny willy.

G

In reply to Graham:

Must be because your mouth gapes like your arse, wideboy.

g

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Well Mark, you may be intersted in this.

I was in the Stronghold with a mutual friend (Loz) and coming down from the crag was asked by a lady in a van if the crag was dry.

About my age, she had a Yorkshire accent and spoke in a way that oozed competence. A few probing questions and lo and behold we had bumped into Jill Lawrence. Living in the US and working as an instructor.

We saw her several times over the next week, the final time she almost managed to onsight a 5.11a. Given she isn't doing that much hard climbing it was a neat effort. Not for me to discuss a lady's age, But she was in good shape and still very keen. Like you I find that inspiring. More so than what E bizillion a youngster has done - that after all is what they should be doing!

I have also bumped into Paul Ross via rocktalk. He's getting on a bit and is still new routing with enthusiasm in the Moab area.

Given enthusiasm you can persue this game for a long time.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: If you knew me you'd know that i do speak from experience admittedly my numbers are smaller, but my "hardest" leads at E2 were both very bold routes, i know i haven't got a hope in hell at the moment of climbing routes that would get E2 for effort.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

I cant understand why Rebecca Stevens was not included on the list

I think that to make the list you must have done trad E4 or above.

There must be hundreds more uk women who've climbed E4 - that list is pathetic. E4's not even considered remotely hard these days. God help UK female climbing if that's in any way a complete list.

In reply to Anonymous:


The list was for E5 or better, on-sight. Are there that many names missing?

In reply to Stefan Kruger:
Probably lots.

In reply to Graham:

Thats exactly why i said that i had only done one E4 its gets an E4 Grade in some guides and not in others. When i did it i had to do aroud 6 extra moves than the other people i was with one guy did a single smear and got to the ledge.
I'm sure anyone else who had done it will give themselves an E4 tick!
Its not as if i'm trying to say I'm an E4 climber far from it, let me have my moment of glory and dont worry i'll be sure to email you if i do one that YOU FIND creadible!!!

In reply to Graham:

Oh i just checked your profile
What gives you the right to belittle me when you are not eactly the best climber for the amount of time you have been climbing now are you!!!!

In reply to Graham:

Sorry to keep having a go but i'm bitter
OH AND DID I MENTION I ONSIGHT FLASHED IT!!

In reply to Luisa Giles:

Luisa, and that retarded f*ckwit Gruff, I WAS NOT BELITTLING YOU, I was commenting on a specific route. Is that difficult to understand?

See here for previous times when I have mentioned it:

http://www.rockfax.com/rocktalk/search.php?forum=0&name=&topic=&...

Oh, and by the way, do you shave your muff?

I'll give you 3 to 1 on that you're a light trim now and again type.



G

In reply to Luisa Giles: Luisa...I think most of us on here are very impressed that you've onsighted an E4 (or even an E3) in your first year of climbing...ignore the idiots that put you down, they're only jealous of ability...

In reply to Ian Hill:
... and curiously interested in your muff maintenance routine.

Good effort on the route anyway.

In reply to Graham:
maybe you need to think about how you word things then and dont just assume we know that what you are saying has good intentions! by saying that basicall you dont want to p**s on someones bonfire in my oppinion is having a go!

As for the muff statement please really what has that got to do with anything?
I thought as a student i was supposed to be the stupid immature one!

In reply to Ian Hill:


Thankyou

In reply to Luisa Giles:

Is it your time of the month or something love?



G

In reply to Graham:

Classic when you cant explain something or you has just made yourself look a nob you bring that one up!

In reply to Luisa Giles:


Luisa, my lovely sweet young thing, I have explained myself perfectly. I'm now winding you up, with some success.

G

In reply to Graham:
im not sure that you are im quite all right at the moment!

In reply to Luisa Giles:

Shall we let this drop then?

<pats Luisa on head in patronising fashion/>



G

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Despite the purile spats going on above Id like to add my 2penneth worth.
Lucy has again managed to outrage women climbers ire(my partners words not mine) by doing another pointless list of a few women thats she knows who climb in the middle grades. the one she did of women boulderers (before this) in britain was hilarious, the exscuse as to why women dont climb as hard cos of the climate (its to cold?????) was the best and again shes struck gold. Im sorry but there are loads of women apart from those mentioned that are doing those grades, they just choose to not shout about those achievements!
And im sorry but when has doing an E5 6a,or E4 6b headpoint been newsworthy, Lucy creamer has done ghost train and that is impressive, doing the Nock is not!
Can i claim an impressive ascent of Blizzard Ridge this weekend cos I had a hangover?

In reply to Anonymous:
I have not read the article but I don't understand your criticism.
"Im sorry but there are loads of women apart from those mentioned that are doing those grades, they just choose to not shout about those achievements! "
Surely this is the same for both sexes? The article is probably of interest to a lot of people (remembering most people climb VS and below apparently) who can go "ooo look how hard she climbs, how impressive", and it is impressive. Just cos other people have done it who aren't in the list doesn't detract from the achievements of the women mentioned. If people are upset about not being mentioned then maybe they should shout about their achievements a bit more. I am sure that lots of men are doing things as 'impressive' as those featured in the comics, but you and I will have never heard of them.
If you choose to be private don't be surprised when no-one knows what you've done.

In reply to Nik at work
The argument im getting at, is that these women dont expect recognition cos they see what there doing as normal not extraordinary. my partner see's it as a form of sexism, look whats shes done and shes got a pair of tits.
Stevie Haston was right in so far as saying ascents should regarded for there merit not cos of sex...Lyn Hill wanted to compete against men on an equal footing in her heyday, her ascent of the nose IS the most impressive rock climbing feet of the ninties

In reply to Anonymous:


That's irrelevant. Do you think that men and women should compete in the same races in athletics, or play in the same league in footy aswell? The way I read it, the purpose of the article was to highlight some great achievements by female climbers, as female role models are rare in this game, especially here. No-one's kidding themselves saying that onsighting E5 is anywhere near the state of the art - but it's still better than the vast majority of all climbers in the UK. Certainly including me

Thank you for that
This is the most useful post so far in this thread and feel that this was supposed to be the point of the article, not to create all this other petty discussion.
It really irritates me that at the first opportunity people feel the need to slag off the achievements of women climbers in this country, when actually all we are doing is going to the crag and climbing as well as we can/want whilst juggling work/everything else etc. The vast majority of people on that list are not full time sponsored heroes and just go climbing like everyone else. We're not claiming to be anything else.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Ha ha ha ha!
What could have been a useful, sesible thread about women climbers has degenerated (as most seem to) into a macho bullshit argument between a load of blokes (alot of which haven't really got a clue and are in no position to comment). The useful, relevant opinions of the few women climbers who have posted on it have for the most part been ignored or belittled in favour of this. No wonder there aren't more women climbers out there, who would want people like this as climbing partners, and no wonder we don't hear about the achievements of women climbers more when this is the response they get!
Why is rocktalk so full of bitter, jealous people that don't know what they're on about but still think they are qualified to judge other people's climbing?

In reply to Gus: we're all f*cked up, and we need somewhere to wave our willies

In reply to Gus:

Every RT thread degenerates into macho bullshit arguments!

In reply to jon: But especially so, when we can show off in front of girls.

In reply to Gus:
Hooray finally someone with something good to say!

In reply to Luisa Giles: It was quite negative actually.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
It depends which way you look at it, he is trying to say that people need to stop picking fault with others achievements and should encourage women to climb more, but no wonder they arent because they would feel intimidated by some of the people on this thread

In reply to Luisa Giles: Intimidation is all in the mind, a bit like bold routes.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:
You are very right but i see myself as quite a bold climber but still get intimidated quite easily, especially when i was new to climbing i was very aware about what i was doing , so would not have been comfortable aroud the people we are talking about

In reply to all:

This is all starting to make me vomit.

G

In reply to Luisa Giles: I can imagine Parallel Piped would be a bit harder if you're short.

I did it many years ago when the grade was (Bancroft Peak supplement) HVS 4c!!! and it seemed a weeny bit undergraded but only one hard slab move (I'm 6').

I seem to remember you could get gear by leaning left and putting it in the severe to the left (no touching the holds allowed) but if you avoided this I can see where the E4 grade's coming from with the nasty landing.

Anyway, good effort. As you say, count the E4 tick.

On the thread generally, I think there is an argument that in some sports men & women should be competing together (snooker, darts, archery - skill sports) and other separately (running, weightlifting - strength sports).

Climbing's a difficult one cause it uses both. I've no doubt that the hardest power routes will be easier in general for men than women, but I bet there are some routes that are easier for women; balance routes, very thin finger cracks that men can't get a digit in (but maybe some of the abusive ones on this thread might be able to fit their "weenys" in).

And all this trad vs sport, men vs women stuff is irrelevant, just go out there and enjoy your climbing. If you climb hard, then that's impressive (man or woman), if not, then that's fine too.

In reply to Mike Hood:
Only a part time Brit, but did Carol Nash on sight E5?

In reply to this thread: Every internet chat site is full of abuse, why do people still get shocked and upset...of course fat blokes who climb E1 in their wet dreams are going to slag of girls who climb E4 and upwards, of course they will say that they are overgraded, of course they will ask them about there shaving habits...a lot of blokes do that all day every day in all walks of life, no shock there. These same blokes will also be quite jealous that there were no pix of them in OTE and that they will never onsight an E5 (beer guts are heavy things)
Ignore 'em all, buy lots of copies of OTE and give them to your family and keep on ticking routes...!

In reply to Luisa Giles:

I don't climb as high grade as you. But I have had my fair share of male partners who climb less hard than me. And that is definitely off bound for most men. I am older than you so I also deal with an older generation of climbers many of whom cannot believe that a woman (and moreover a middle aged one) can climb, can lead, can go on a trip on her own, etc...You operate in a very male arena as a climber, you have to take the good and the bad.

In reply to Anonymous:

Do you speak for all women climbers? If not how can you claim she has outraged them and why?

I would imagine it is quite an inspirational article for women (or men) who aspire to climb at this level

I too am surprised that there are so few women who have onsighted E5 or above but despite some peoples comments above I don't see any other names being put forward, so maybe the list is pretty accurate.

E5 onsight may not be cutting edge on a world scale but if its were British womens climbings at, with the exception of just a few, then why not write an article about it, I can't see the harm it it.

In reply to phil gb:
I am confident that a lot of people are on-sighting/climbing at grades a lot higher and a lot more than people think. The comics focus in on a few people (those who compete, those who are sponsored, those who 'shout' etc etc) some of these people deserve the attention they receive and some don't. The sex of the people is irrelevant, some people want to be in the spotlight and some don't.
The article sounds interesting (I haven't seen it) and not deserving of a slagging. It is a shame that people are so quick to put down/criticise others achievements.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
I always think threads of this nature are amussing and remind me of drunken arguments in the pub.

As far as Im concerned I love magazines as they are filled with articles written by people who love my sport, they talk usualy with enthusiasm about what they or others have done. I have no problem with people thinking what they do is great and it make for better reading than modesty or negativity. People who keep quiet about their achievements are fine and Im sure they dont want people fighting their corner, at the same time people who want to talk about their achievments are cool too, its great to hear about what theyve done (and listen to all the slagging of they get lol). I dont think rocktalk is anything but a place for opinions good bad or ugly.

In reply to Luisa Giles:

At the end of the day you've led an E4.... Well done. It really pisses me off on this forum others trying to belittle others achievments. On a previous thread someone implied that they had mates who would break me and me mates legs because we did a winter route that was to hard for him.
Ignore the slurs because at the end of the day there just jealous.
On the female climbing front I use to love watching a not so young Angela Soper crusing E3's to lots of male climbers bemusement!

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

I know of at least three women who are not on this list that have all climbed harder than E5. Survival and Warpath are both E4.

In reply to Anonymous:

..on-sight? That's great - the author asked to be informed of any omissions.

In reply to Stefan Kruger:

What a wonderful service we are providing the author. Positive criticism, a pat on the back, the odd bit of slagging, opinions, facts and figures, attitudes etc...

Feedback in action rather than the usual lonely-tower isolation.

I'll make sure she knows about this thread.

Mick

In reply to francoise:

>But I have had my fair share of male partners who climb less hard than me. And that is definitely off bound for most men.

Nonsense, darling. At least, most people would draw the line at climbing worse than you. But climbing with women who climb better than me is a privilege, and every male climber I know would feel the same way.

three comments,
1 graham you are a dick,
2 if it gets e4, and it does, it's e4, doesnt matter what anyone say's about style and type
3 if you had seen lou on it, then youd have seen how hard it was for her, i lost count of how many poor smears she had to use to get up it, and the dino move she had to do to get to the break was one of the most impresive things ive seen while climbing, and ive seen some impressive climbs done!.

ok if your tall like me then the route is an absolute pi*s easy one, i used one smear and got to the good break! but unless you have been in that position then you have no idea how hard the route is for each individual.

jumping back to the thread, there are some damm good female climbers around no matter of age, hight, level of attractiveness, or pesonal hair keep! get a life and respect people who deserve it, hell a lot of them are better climbers than, me (and certainly you graham!)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You bitchy person, you! So you can see that people shouldn't put Luisa down, but it's ok for you to do it to Francoise? Hypocrit!

Some men are happy to climb with women who climb harder, others it bugs. I would guess this is more obvious at lower grades......... if 'climbing with you and climbing harder' means she has to be a climbing goddess, of course any man would be chuffed.

My experience of male partners has been great, but I have come across men who are not happy about females out-climbing them.

Luisa, I'm in awe

In reply to slim:

>1 graham you are a dick,

No Slim, I'm still trying to find Gruff's, which is allegedly in my mouth, somewhere. So far I've only been able to find a couple of my partners pubic hairs, and a small piece of peanut lodged between two of my teeth.

You are rude, and prolonging something that started out as a comment about route, not a person, and which need not have become such an issue.

BTW It's E3 in the Gritfax, and may well be E2 in the next Froggatt guide.

Up yours titface.



G

In reply to gingerkate:

and I've come across females who are not happy about other females out-climbing them. Or men. And so on.

Francoise made an (incorrect) generalisation and was corrected, that's not putting her down now is it dear? <vbg>

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Fair enough, am inclined to agree with you. But Francoise is entitled to put her perspective without bitchy little comments re her level of climbing.

Incidentally, oh great, wonderful Mr Cox, such put downs are also put downs of anyone who climbs less hard than Francoise does. So PPPPRRRPPPP! <loud raspberry> to you, John

In reply to Anonymous:


I'm sure your right Lee, so who are they?

In your 6'6" opinion, also don't forget we are talking on-sight not something you have climbed dozens of times. Besides I thought you graded all the routes you can do as 6c and all those you can't as 8a

Why the need to put down other people achievements?

In reply to slim: http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_route.html?id=1379
never done it myself so cannot comment.

In reply to mark s: i think if as many women climbed as men,there would be alot more climbing e7/8a.
the amout of women who climb e7 is probably the same as men taking into account more men are climbers

In reply to mark s: Very good point. It would be interesting to compare the *percentage* of male and female climbers who can climb E7. Not easy statistics to come across obviously, but a good point.

In reply to gingerkate:

I get irritated by this fantasy some women have that men don't like being outclimbed by women. I've never met a man who gives a damn.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


And pray tell John. How do you know that?

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Can I point out that of the historical personalities Geraldine still led E5 on grit last year at 50.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Doh! As Mick says, how on earth would you know, John? They don't walk around saying , 'we don't like being outclimbed by women'. They just narrow their eyes and glare at you. Or mutter something snotty. Only not at *you* John. Because you're a man.

BTW There are women who don't mind being outclimbed by blokes but don't like being outclimbed by other women. And there are plenty of people who have a problem with being outclimbed by kids, seen that in posts here often enough. Oh, and being outclimbed by newbies, that bugs some people too.

It's being outclimbed by someone whom ones prejudices say shouldn't climb as hard, that's when it irks.

In reply to gingerkate:
I'm with John on this one.
I think there is a preconcieved idea that men will dislike being outclimbed by a woman, this coupled with popular cultures current notions of sexism creates an atmosphere where it is easy to pick up on men "disliking being outclimbed by women". I am sure some men who actively feel like this (I don't know any, but I'm sure they exist) but in my experience most people are just supportive regardless of being outclimbed or not.

Personally I enjoy being outclimbed by anyone.

In reply to Nik at work:


And me. That's an opportunity to learn.

In reply to gingerkate:

John's comment may have been uncharacteristically poorly-worded (what does 'met' mean exactly?) but I'd whole-heartedly endorse it anyway. I've climbed with three of the women on the OTE 'list' at various times over the years and known other guys who also climbed regularly with them - I've never detected any resentment from anyone. Of course John and I are both resident in the enlightened liberal south .. maybe men are more neanderthal up north

In reply to Nik at work:


I have to enjoy it, otherwise I'd be a miserable bugger all the time!

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm with John, Nik, Stefan and Tobyfk on this. I've never had any comments made to me by blokes who are irritated at being outclimbed by a women...and there have been many "away from the girlies" opportunities of most of the people I climb with to do so.

Conversely, blokes have frequently commented to me about how such-and-such girl or woman has improved, or how she climbs better than them/most men, invariably said with approval.

Maybe it is a north-south thing!

In reply to Rob Naylor:
I'm a northerner honest, even if I do have a non-descript accent. My grandfather used to wear a flat-cap and everything.

Maybe it is a nice bloke-nasty bloke thing!

In reply to Nik at work:
Yeah, I suppose it's possible that the men who don't like being outclimbed by women are just the sour bunch who don't like being outclimbed by anybody? I mean, if a man says something snotty to me because I've, as he sees it, 'shown him up' by climbing something he can't, I have no reason to suppose he wouldn't have been just as sour to a man, have I?

Still, Francoise has a right to an opinion without getting her climbing slagged, so I still say you're a hypocrite, John.

When I lectured I never once had a problem with any male students who didn't like a woman in a position of relative power/authority, but a couple of female students weren't happy with it. Women being jealous of women is probably more common nowadays than men who can't take women out-performing them.

Francoise, are you talking English blokes, or French? When I worked, very much in a mans' world, there were very noticeable differences between how americans related to female academics and how uk blokes related to them. Maybe cultural differences show in climbing, too?

in my experiance, the guys who dont like to be beaten by women (in anything noy just climbing) tend to dislike being beaten by by anyone who they regrad as inferior, like beginners, people who look weak, children, people with ginger hair etc... this is more of a problem with an individuls attitude, than a problem between the sexes, on the other hand, if being outclimbed by someone irrelivent of sex, height, strenght ect gives you the drive to push yourself harder, and not spurn resentment then it can be a positive thing.

In reply to gingerkate:


Why? This is a climbing forum not the vicar's tea party. Slagging of various kinds is hardly uncommon. Or should John be polite to Francoise 'because she's a girl'?

In reply to tobyfk: I am constantly being outclimbed by my regular partner Geraldine and bear no resentment whatsoever. However its nice to see her struggling on something I've also struggled on (usually due to reach).

Neanderthal from up north!

In reply to tobyfk:
How many times do I have to say the same thing? Shall I just copy and paste my previous posts? Watch my lips, toby:

Because John had just told other people off for making comments re a route Luisa had done that he regarded as putting down her climbing. So he's being a hypocrite.

While I'm about it: no-one would have batted an eye at Jon Greengrass's remarks if Luisa had been a bloke. Not saying 'chivalry' is a bad thing, just noting its existence..........

In reply to gingerkate:

No I still think you're wrong. I think John's prejudices are more along good climber/ bad climber lines than boy/ girl ... he's elitist not hypocritical (or at least not hypocritical by his standards). Got that? And of course that little jibe at Francoise might have been 'a joke'.

In reply to gingerkate:

I log on here and discover this argument going on about one of my posts!

If I recall precise instances when a man has made it clear that he did not like being outclimbed by a woman(or me in particular) I have to own it up that these were a few instances and that I may have wrongly generalised. What is more insidious is an attitude that I find in some climbing circles (mostly older Brits) who easily assume that because of my sex, my age maybe too, I do not lead and generally consider me as little more than a belay bunny. Not that there is anything wrong with being a belay bunny it just does not suit me!

In reply to gingerkate:

Well as the first person to say anything aboout Jons remark I'd have to disagree, I said what I said because he sound like a condecending git, nothing to do with Luisa being a girl. However I do think there was an element of "leave the poor little girl alone" in the slagging Grahm got for pointing out the E4 she did is not really E4 (alledgedly, not done the route).

While I'm here, one of my regular climbing partners is female and has gone from being not quite as good as me to being much better. Whilst resent is too strong a word I'll use it anyway. Yes I resent it, I resent being weak, I resent not having improved in the last ten years, I resent not getting out enough but I don't resent HER.

In reply to Al Evans:

Hello Neanderthal! U climbing this afternoon? I have to get back in training to beat all these men!

In reply to francoise:
cant believe this is still going on!

In reply to francoise: No Francoise, Cuddly Bunny not Belay Bunny And I forgive you for standing me up at Westway.

In reply to Al Evans:

What? Are you saying I am fat?

In reply to francoise: No of course not, just cuddly

In reply to tobyfk:
Of course John and I are both resident in the enlightened liberal south .. maybe men are more neanderthal up north

Well we don`t use moisturiser and wear make- up like you Southern softies ; )

In reply to gingerkate:

Hello my name is Bob. I don't give a monkeys if a girl I am climbing with is climbing harder than me (or not).
There.

I have climbed some excellent (and hard) routes with girls/gilrfriends over the years. Il Duce, Spacewalk, Fay, Archtempter.... All have been fantastic experiences. Some require a sense of humour/degree of calm.

Something I try extremely hard to do is to regard the person holding my the rope/who's rope I'm holding as a climber (not always easy when it's your girlfriend, I confess). A climber, not a bloke or a girly - if I cared about what sex the person is then I shouldn't be on the route with them.
That's the key people, it's about climbing.
Go ahead, make list's, make list's for boys and girls but don't get hung up on them - see Katherine's posts.
Surely, surely, surely a day at the crag is a day for everyone to have a laugh, enjoy the rock, the weather (hmmm, talking UK here!) and to achieve what they want to achieve. If 'a girl' goes on to make an ascent that is harder than myself or my mates ascent's I would be delighted for her. I would hate to be around anyone who didn't feel the same. (A prolific RT'er of awesome strength and power was shamed recently by many climbers inc. a few girls, at a popular East London climbing spot - he went on to climb the problem but not without a little paddy. Duty dictated we rib him.)

I have learn't much from girls - I'm a shockingly shyt slab climber and one of the most awesome moments I have seen on rock was watching a Lady walk up, and I stress WALK, the top of Wings of Unreason.
Get over it boys. Climbing is for climbers - girls do it too!

Bob

In reply to bob smith: well said...as someone said..."read my lips, it's about climbing, stupid"...

In reply to Ian Hill:

Climb Like A Girl