UKC

What do you prefer to use when tying in??

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

fig 8 coz you can see at a glance that its right.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

Bowline - As long as you are confident tying it it is quicker, easier to untie after loading and doesn't require a knot in the rope beforehand.

good points, but doesnt the bowline put more stress on the rope?

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

I've recently changed to using the bowline. Actually a double bowline.
However.
This must be backed up with a double, triple, or even a quadruple fisherman's knot.

It can be done so the knot doesn't hit you in the chest (a tad uncomfortable), when you fall.
Which is why I now use it.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

Not that i know of. I don't think there is much difference between the two knots in terms of strength reduction.

There is actually nothing wrong with a single bowline with a single stopper knot as long as you leave a decent tail on the rope. If tied nice and snug, the whole knot is kept a good few inches closer to the harness than a fig8 since the stopper knot is in the loop rather than on the live rope.

Hope that makes sense.

Also, check out the Edwards bowline in the articles section. I find it a bit OTT, but i know a couple of people who swear by it.

Another aside, even if you use a fig8 to tie in, the bowline is probably one of the most useful knots you can know, learn it whatever!

In reply to Shaun Marshall:
I use a fig8 for tying 'cos the only knot that I've ever seen work loose is a stopper knot. With a fig8 this isn't a problem. With a bowline it makes the knot potentially unsafe. I do use bowlines in some other situations though.

In reply to Shaun Marshall: Fig. of 8. Ok it can be hard to undo, but its easy to get right, and will not undo if doubled back.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:
admitedly i sail more than i climb, but i find the bowline an incredibly useful knot, not only is it extremely easy to tie (once youm know how!) it is extremly strong, and wont come undone unless u want it to!

In reply to Shaun Marshall:
You shouldn`t be interested in what anybody prefers, more what is fact or `law` if you like :

a. Bowline tied off with double fishermans is safe, quicker, easier one handed, easier to untie after load
b. Fig 8 is harder to get wrong, doesn`t need tying off, can be checked easier at glance

ie.

a. Efficiency for confident users
b. Far better for beginner & tutorial scenarios

In reply to 'Arris:


Only under tension/load! Otherwise surprisingly easily, especially if snagged or especially short tail. Quite worrying advice really

In reply to 'Arris:

I only know of one person who's had a bowline come undone on him. He was attempting to prove that ice axe arrest would work on ice and presumeably the bowline scraping along the ice worked it loose. When his partner tryed to stop him at the end of the slope, the rope stopped and he didn't.

That's one more knot coming undone than I know of with fig8s. I use the bowline when the knot will not move around and hence is unlikely to work loose e.g. around a boulder at Brimham on sunday when I ran out of slings for my belay. For situations where the knot will scrape over rocks etc. or be flexed a lot and have the chance to work loose (mountain routes, chimneys) I would always use a fig8. I guess that for walls and sport routes this is not much of a concern but I see little advantage to the bowline so I just use the fig8 to tie in at all times.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:
Figure of 8
My mate was leading pitch 8 on the Salathe Wall and looked down and found that his bowline had come undone. Have never used one since.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

i started using a single bowline about two years ago (with stopper knotts). however i always got a little unnerved at tricky points on the climb after my mate told me its other name.. 'the death knott'. to be honest i toproped (indoors) on bowlines for years an never had any problems. i've gone back to using a figure of eight, more for peace of mind more than anything... one less thing to worry about when things get tricky on the lead.

on the plus size bowlines are dead easy to undo, even after a big fall onto one... you'll be in the pub while your mate tries to undo his weighted figure of 8

i'd avoid teh edwards doubel bowline...it always went funny when i tried to tie it....

In reply to Shaun Marshall:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=2759

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=32617

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=47448

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

If you grab hold of either side of the loop with both hands you can ripe open a doubled back figure of eight. Quite dangerous if you clip your belay device into one side of the loop and then have to hold a fall, particularly if you are attached to the anchors by the other side of the loop.

In reply to tony coar: Eh? not sure I get what you mean?

I mean feeding the rope back through the not so its tied off and pointing down towards your feet, surely as its pulled it tightens on the rope doesnt it?

never tried it though you could be right, hard to imagine without having rope in teh office.

In reply to Anonymous:

I use a double bowline with a double stopper - it's fine if tied correctly and i'd suspect that most of the above exmples of a bowline coming undone are when it hasn't been tied correctly. Having said that I'm in total agreement with 'Salamanda' in that it's not really a knot for beginers for the reasons he gives

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

The knot is safe enough for leading, but not for belaying if you use the system in my example.

Have a go at tieing it and then grab hold of the loop with both hands' it can be ripped apart quite easily.

In reply to Iain Ridgway:

The doubled figure of 8 can roll up the rope if the two ends are pulled apart (http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/ under "abnormal figure of 8", I think). If there's no stopper knot, it can roll off the tail, leaving you with no loop.

In reply to 'Arris:

I also sail more than I climb, and I have seen bowlines without a stopper knot come apart if shaken hard.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

I always used to use a bowline. However, after emigrating I discovered that foreign climbers assume you don't know what you're doing unless you use a fig8, so I no longer have the choice.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

For multi-pitch I use the fig 8 but use the bowline for everything else.

J

In reply to Alex Purser:



why is your not far enough away from your harness it hits you in the chest?

In reply to Shaun Marshall: Probably an age thing - I was taught the bowline (rabbit comes out of hole, round the bush, and back down hole again) and have persisted in using it (with a double stopper knot) for over 20 years. Had no problems with it.

In reply to Shaun Marshall:

I use a bowline with double stopper knot at climbing walls, as it is easier to untie after the inevitable lower off.

For everything else, I use a fig 8.

The exception to that is when I've taken small kids climbing. If you use a bowline, it is a much smaller knot to start with, the stopper knot is on the side of the loop and it is easy to adjust the size of the loop to be as small as possible. This reduces the chance of the stopper knot hitting them in the face if they fall off, particularly if they are wearing a full body harness (Ouistiti, or similar) where the tie in point is so much higher up.

I use both. Started off on the Bowline, as that was what I was taught. Have tended to use the fig 8 recently as it allows me to be lazier than with the bowline. But last time I was out climbing, and thought "I haven't used the Bowline in a while" so used it to keep in practice.

In reply to Marc C:

every good knot has a rabbit story attached to it. The double fisherman's has a story about a fat rabbit (let's call him Dave) who gets stuck going through an underpass on the way back from the sweetshop for the second time.

In reply to Clare: Yes, when I was the Public Executioner, I used to amuse the 'victim' with a convoluted Rabbit story whilst I was placing the noose around his neck - "....And then Mr. Rabbit tightened his belt to stop his trousers falling down, and jumped out of the tree". They always died with a happy look on their faces.

In reply to Stefan Lloyd: ok, sorry, mabye i should have developed my previous message a bit more:

Tie the bowline, and make sure youve got a short length of rope left, with this tie as many half hitches as possible- at least three. this should help the knot stay tight when it is not under tension- hope this makes sense!

In reply to 'Arris:


Half-hitches will just fall out; do you mean overhand knots?
A double overhand is also more secure (less likely to fall apart) than a single overhand, or even 3.

Better still, learn the Yosemite bowline; it doesn't need a stopper. It really is an excellent knot.

In reply to mike swann:

Yosemite bowline???

Got a link to any 'how to' sites please

In reply to Ropeboy:

Same here. Except if somebody has already tied the first bit of the figure 8...

In reply to Alex Purser:

It's in the BMC knots booklet as bowline variant, or look at
http://www.cavepage.magna.com.au/cave/knot.html#yose

In reply to Shaun Marshall: Bowline every time, easier to undoe and you can tie it with one hand (with practice) occaisionally useful!

In reply to adam fletcher:

Fig of eight with a stopper, often hits me in the chest. I don't have it too big.
I use the rule, that if you can fit your fist through it, then it's too big.

The stopper is the knot which hits the chest when the rope comes tight

In reply to mike swann:

Thank you helpful sir

Bowline every time!

So much quicker to tie...