UKC

I spotted someone said they thought Insanity was hard, I thought it was very easy. Maybe it suited me?
Chequers crack was a popular hard for the grade.
I have done The Brush off and was surprised how easy it was, I know it's death if you fall but still only felt like bold E1 to me.
Thoughts, and other easy routes for their grade.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

I soloed this one bearefoot (I'd forgotten my boots) so I don't think the grade's right. It's given HVS in the BMC for some reason too:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10431

I've soloed Pot Black twice on days when the crux of Millsom's Minion didn't feel right - escape onto the E2? Something isn't right.

Why Easy Walling gets HVS I'll never know. HS 5b would be right.

Most routes at Birchen could do with having a couple of grades knocked off. Starting with Orpheus Wall of course

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Oh yeah, and The Moon is E1. I've said it before, but it's exactly the same as Astral Stroll, which is E1 (but a tough and adventurous one). It's kind of nice to give it E3 because it means it's quieter, and it's always nice to cruise a route you thought would be the living end.

In reply to Phill Mitch: TPS is probably a good contender for this, whether you call it HVS or E1, its definitely easier than any HVS or E1 I've ever done (Which admittedly, isnt a lot but still...)

And Scar at Baildon Bank - Definitely not E2. Especially not with the peg. Probably 5c climbing though.

RC

In reply to RyanC:

Kiln Dance With Me at Limekilns: still E1 5a in the guidebook, really only VS. Not sure how this happened: perhaps the crucial gear placement was only unearthed later? Or, since the FA is not credited, maybe just an error which never got fixed?

In reply to Phill Mitch: I found Dry Trim at High crag, Buttermere to be really soft touch, more like VS than E1, especially compared to the other HVS's and E1's at the crag. Still good though.

All the *** HVS's at Seargant crag slabs are pretty soft touch as well.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Yes agree with you on The Moon, Also The Sun at Roscolyn got E3 when I did it but I think thats gone down to E2 now. I think Dream is only VS but has to be graded HVS to keep new VS leaders away!

In reply to RyanC: I think Scar is only E1, especialy if you compare it to Ram or Future Times which both get E1 and are both harder, I don't think Scar is 5c unless you finish direct.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Have you considered you were having a good day?

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Goliath's Groove

In reply to Jon Stewart: I really don't think The Moon is E1 - if it is, then there are an awful lot of very overgraded E1's.

Mysteries at Huntsmans though, is ridiculously overgraded at E3 - it's no more than E1 - albeit a rather good one.

In reply to Phill Mitch: Loads at Fairy Cave, Bramble Wine HVS stands out, sure to be downgraded in the new guide due soon though.

In reply to Phill Mitch: I did The Sun when it was graded E2 and it was way, way harder than any E2 I'd done up to that point. I've since done quite a few E3s on similar crags, and think it's definitely E3 (not even a soft one).

In reply to Captain Gear:

Nah. It has no 5c climbing, isn't particularly bold and so has to be E1 (or E1 plus an extra E-point for 'out there' factor). When I did it, it was covered in chalk, which would make a big difference. But the fact is that all the holds are massive, and it isn't pumpy or bold.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Is that the 2 pitch one, where the first pitch is a sport route on slung trees? If so then yes, it's not HVS.

In reply to victim of mathematics: That's the one. Steep second pitch might just be worth VS 4c but would be low in both the adjectival and tech grades, HVS 5a ...not a chance!

In reply to Phill Mitch:

The Ace at Burbage N. for some reason gets HVS 4b even though it is really very short and about HS.

Also Sunset Slab is technically and physically easy for the grade but you wouldn't want to fall. Still, whatever the grade it's an awesome route.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Three Pebble Slab is easy for HVS and was my first of the grade: One slabby 5a move next to gear with a rest before and after, followed by some 4b padding which you could do with your hands in your pockets.

In reply to Phill Mitch

I reckon the mind plays big tricks either way; a route with a 'reputation' can for some bring a real focus and commitment to their game plan, so that maybe they'll overestimate a coming 'struggle'.

Of course, it can work the other way (and for me that's usually the case): for instance, the first time a did a route on Cloggy (yes, GS!!) I was over-awed, scared and got in quite a mess, even though the route was technically below my (then) operating standard.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

I'd say Wreckers Slab is ridiculously easy at VS - especially given all the pegs in Situ. Certaily no worse than the severes on the Atlantic slabs in Ogwen.

Tower Face Direct gets E2 but is no harder than HVS (provided you trust the sideways nut)

More recently, did Original Route of the Rivelin Needle last weekend which is more than HVS 5a than E2 5b IMO

Lancaster Flyby at Dovestone Tor is utter gift at E1

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Many E2's are easier to solo than safe HVS climbs. Easier to solo means nothing without knowing about the pro.

Give me some Birchen routes that are overgraded (or is that a another piss take as Orpheus Wall is clearly very tough for HVS)

Some else mentioned the Ace. Thats VS in the definitive (and really should be V0- 4b). At one stage it was a HS with a tenuous unprotected 4b rock-over on gritty shit that injured a few folk and hardly anyone climbed it... now its clean as a whistle!

In reply to Jimbo C:

>The Ace at Burbage N. for some reason gets HVS 4b even though it is really very short and about HS.

It used to be HS; that must just have been a misprint, surely?

Telli!

jcm

Tennis Shoe Direct at "E1" is surely a contender?

In reply to Phill Mitch:
Some of the routes at Ardnamurchan are over-graded I think... But slabby climbing does suit me so perhaps I'm wrong.
Greta Gabbro gets VS 4c, probably HS 4b really.
Claude gets HVS 5a, I've climbed a lot of VS 4c routes that were much harder.
Sure there are some others there too...

In reply to Phill Mitch:

..cue a lot of people trying to out-macho eachother and a lot of willy-waving.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

The Butcher in Pembroke, think it gets E2, thought it was HVS/E1 !

In reply to John_Hat:

You're right there. The Moon is not E1 and neither is the The Butcher...clearly.

In reply to Phill Mitch: the biggest give away is wings of unreason,supposedly e4 6b,e2 5c would not be over grading either

In reply to mark s:

Yes, you're not wrong there, although short people find it harder, of course.

In reply to the OP: one does have to agree, willy waving or not, that the Brush Off is easier than Archangel.

jcm

In reply to Bulls Crack:

The Butcher, big jugs, one crux move by bomber gear. I`d be the last person to try and out-macho anyone, oh and I was having a bad day !

In reply to mark s: Agreed, E2 5c would be fair. Thought Traveller In Time was really soft at E4 too.

In reply to Alex Winter: yeah i was going to say that also.

In reply to mr mills:

55 of 72 people don't agree that's it E2...let alone E1!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24764

It was an easy E3 I thought but obviously not E1

In reply to Phill Mitch: Only one Telli so far. Not done it but know it's reputation?
Brimstone E2?
I think I need to do more E4's If I am willy waveing about the brush off being easy?

In reply to Phill Mitch: Not done the butcher yet either.

Bilberry Cake at Burbage North. HVS 5a going on HS 4a.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Meddle at Burbage North is a gift at HVS

In reply to Offwidth:

True, but Pot Black has bomber gear just below the crux, it might be worth hard E1 if it had no gear.


Orpheus Wall was a piss-take, it's nails! Looking at the Froggatt guide I think you've sorted out the Birchen problem quite a bit (Ratline, Powder Monkey, Camperdown, Nelson's Nemesis) - good job!

You could have also knocked down

Scrim net (5c)
Midshipman (5c or simply can't reach)
Topsail (HS, but a bit mean as it's probably many people's first overhang?)

In contrast, I think the bouldering grades are harsh: I think Hornblower is V5, and I can't do Oarsman or Thing on a Spring (the latter I thought was graded font 7a?).

In reply to Phill Mitch:


All three routes on that slab are easy for the grade

In reply to tri-nitro-toulumne:

Unless you come off. I think E4 for a more-or-less chop route (Which the Brush Off is) is perfectly reasonable.

I've done the right-hand two, and there's certainly bits where I really wouldn't want to fall. The far right hand one (E1?) has the best gear but also the best chance of falling off around the arete, which wouldn't be pleasant.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

This is not a nice thread, because there's a danger of denting peoples egos and sense of achievement.....

In reply to Phill Mitch: Beanstalk at Cratcliffe (E2), Suicide Wall (HVS) which i did on the same day felt a lot harder

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Let you off then...

I'm constantly downgrading (or trying to downgrade) 6a routes and problems as I can do them...still find Scrim Net hard for one move and not many others pushed for 5c.

Although I'm co-crag author 'the team' did the hard bouldering and I won't hear a bad word said. I knew it was brilliant and had to prod a little but when they hit the crag it transformed our script. The harder grades were checked by them across the guide.

Topsail is HVS for the short; it's a bugger for the average VS leader to onsight clean; it's Severe for some who can reach as a re-ascent (except Chris the Tall says he gets bunched up and VS is fine for him) and HS onsight for most extreme leaders.

Brush Off should be easy E3 at most with modern pro. Even has a sneaky bomber nut halfway and lots of microcams.

In reply to Offwidth:


I think it's great that the bouldering's been recorded so well...but that doesn't mean I agree with the grades!

In reply to Jon Stewart: Maybe you need to get better ?

In reply to Offwidth: Well yeah of course. (But of course it's about comparison, not absolutes).

In reply to climb the peak:

I've done those and ...surprise surprise..Beanstalk was about a grade or two harder!

Anyway lets discount grit routes because if you can do them they often feel relatively easy and if not, well, they don't!

In reply to mr mills:

It might feel E1 if you onsight E5 & 7b as you have, but it is definateley at least top end E2 for people for who E2/E3 is top of their grade, look at the logbook.

The crux is solid 5c and is followed by quite a few more moves of at least 5b on a very steep wall with poor footholds, where most E2/E3 leaders will get very pumped if they stop to try and place gear. If you don't place any gear you end up 20ft above your last piece looking at a big, although probably safe, fall.

In reply to Mark Bull:

Too right, red flag is also never vs 4c, easy hs 4c tops (4c moves coming off ground with gear placed from the ground after that s/hs. 4a/4b)

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Some Blue For You E1 5a (HVS?)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12510

Bingo Wall E2 5b
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11470

both very well protected and not sustained.

I think many people need to remember that the first ascentist grades the route and on a first ascent the leaders perception of the unknown has to taken into account. Also some routes are now old, and with better gear, boots and walls to train on now, things do change.

In reply to Phill Mitch: Billberry Cake at Burbage North HVS 5a. No way, unless İ was somehow off route

In reply to MGrock: So the first ascent of all these routes at Almscliff graded them VS, Birdlime Traverse, Demon Wall, Great Western, Overhanging Groove, Z Climb Eliminate, Retribution Rib........I could go on. All now graded between HVS and E2. Are you suggesting we should have left the grades at VS as the great Arthur Dolphin graded them?