/ I saw this on YouTube and was horrified...

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kaiser 16 Jul 2019

I had been watching this guy's videos as he attempts scrambles in an amusing way but what happens at 1:53 in this video sickened me.

I commented accordingly on the video as you'll see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spB9HWjxPl8

Post edited at 21:08
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Jackspratt 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Having clicked the link and watched a few of his videos I've drawn the conclusion he's a bit of a kn0b, not to mention a bit liberal with the term guide when referring to himself. 

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elliot.baker 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

He’s responded to you 

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plyometrics 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Good shout calling him out on that. 

Although, even if I’d not watched the clip, his website address tells me everything I need to know...

Post edited at 21:55
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Gordon Stainforth 16 Jul 2019
In reply to elliot.baker:

I wonder just what sort of experience this guy really has at climbing anything. And just who, ever, pulls off a loose piece of rock and chucks it, without even having the nous to shout 'Below!'?  And as Jackspratt says, he has the cheek to call himself a 'guide' when he's not in fact guiding his partner in any way. Just leaving her to fend for herself while he bumbles on upwards, more interesting in talking to his ongoing selfie than anything else.

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abr1966 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Looks like he's appealing to the 'bear grylls' sector of the market.....I wouldn't trust him with anyone looking at his videos....and the name....well!!

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john arran 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I'm left wondering why anyone would be wanting to give him the publicity oxygen he seems to crave, by posting links on a popular website.

Seems like the real world equivalent of an online troll to me, but all the more dangerous for not just messing with people's online existence.

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Tobes 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Apparently you are an ‘armchair expert’ or something along those lines (his response). There’s a good comment from someone calling into question his quals, experience and insurance- surprise he’s not responded to that one.

Someone from an NGB should send a secret shopper his way....

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pasbury 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

The fisheye lens makes what he’s doing look steeper and more impressive than it actually is. He’s clearly a bit of an egotistical dick.

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alx 16 Jul 2019
In reply to Tobes:

His website lacks any of those details!

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asteclaru 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Ah, I see that Brave Dave is finally making an appearance on UKC

Check out his 'guided train hopping adventure':

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-insane-on-a-freight-train

An absolute steal at £18.5k!

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pasbury 16 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I hope he’s got a good lawyer and public liability insurance!!

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MonkeyPuzzle 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Not sure we need to spend the money on renewing Trident when we have this massive weapon already in reserve.

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jethro kiernan 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Ah Brave Dave someone mentioned him when I was taking some pictures out scrambling, I watched a couple of minutes of one his video’s but find it excruciating to watch so gave up.

the person who mentioned him did say he was touting himself as a guide 

Bear Grylls has a lot to answer for :-/

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Donny M 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

The only people leaving positive comments on any of his videos are the same people who ask you if you’ve seen that film about Alex Honnalds on Netflix when you tell them you like rock climbing.  

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olddirtydoggy 16 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

This has got to be a troll. There's no way it's being put out there as serious.

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DerwentDiluted 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Alexa,  find me a total dickhead to climb a mountain with.

"I found the perfect guide"

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Blanche DuBois 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I wonder just what sort of experience this guy really has at climbing anything. And just who, ever, pulls off a loose piece of rock and chucks it, without even having the nous to shout 'Below!'? 

Or even has a look to see if anyone has appeared at the base whilst he's been climbing.  Although I doubt he'd still be able to see the base given how easy angled it is.

> And as Jackspratt says, he has the cheek to call himself a 'guide' when he's not in fact guiding his partner in any way. Just leaving her to fend for herself while he bumbles on upwards, more interesting in talking to his ongoing selfie than anything else.

My thoughts watching the first minute of the thing was how loose the rock looked, and how in the line of fire his partner is if (when) he pulls something off. If he was that "brave" he should have let her go first so that she can kick stuff off onto him instead of the other way around.  I hope she knew what sort of potential danger she was being put into - although she didn't look very confidant, so maybe not experienced and trusting her "guide"?

Post edited at 05:08
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Blanche DuBois 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Jackspratt:

> Having clicked the link and watched a few of his videos I've drawn the conclusion he's a bit of a kn0b, not to mention a bit liberal with the term guide when referring to himself. 


Oh I don't know.  On his splendid web-site he states that  "I'm also a mountain guide (I even have a real life ML qualification and everything!)."  Although as the most he's prepared to reveal about his true identity is that he's (maybe) called "Dave" it's not easy to check this on the mountain-training.org database.  Handy in avoiding the inevitable liability claims that'll be coming his way I guess.

Still - if he can persuade the gullible to cough up 390 GBP for a day of easy scrambling, then good luck to him.  Or somethng.

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Mike-W-99 17 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I poked around a bit and found this - https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/83ei5s/so_i_just_found_this_channel_about_train_hopping/

(Scroll down a little bit to the relevant post)

Post edited at 05:56
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kaiser 17 Jul 2019
In reply to elliot.baker:

> He’s responded to you 

Yes I saw that.  I don't propose to continue the discussion on youtube.  "Adios" as he might say.

I get the feeling that behind his defensive response he may actually have realized that what he did was a mistake.  

If he hasn't then there's probably no hope for him.

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overdrawnboy 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I just reported it on You Tube as misleading and dangerous, not that that will have any impact.

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Northern Star 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Wow, lost for words.  Bryant's Gully is a great scramble but loose as hell near the top.  At the very least I'd have thought a guide would make their client wear a helmet up there.  He implies on the website that he's pushing his own limits with this one - yet he's also attempting to guide and keep gullible and paying clients safe on the same terrain?

It would be really interesting to see what happened on a Brave Dave outing (if as if by coincidence) a couple of the the mountain rescue people, or one of the fully qualified MIC/MIA types on here were to book onto a days guided grade 2/3 scrambling with him posing as beginners, GoPro the whole thing, perhaps get into a spot of simulated difficulty somewhere on-route and then report back.

Post edited at 08:02
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EdS 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

I'm sure HSE would be very interested to as its a commercial enterprise

And HMRC - wonder how much tax worthy earnings are being declared

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Jamie Wakeham 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I don't for a moment think it's a troll - I think he's absolutely for real, and I fear he's getting plenty of work through his rather canny social media presentation.  It does seem to be remarkably difficult to find out who he actually is, and try to verify his qualification. 

Having said that, I don't doubt that he's telling the truth about holding ML, and that he's got the standard Howden within-remit insurance policy.  It's just that he's acting outside that remit and way outside good practice.

I do wonder - what would the insurers do?  Say the woman in that video fell and ended up permanently disabled, and made a £5M claim.  Would Howden pay out and then try to reclaim it from him for acting under false pretences?  Or would they say that his insurance was invalid and simply not pay out?  If the latter I am rather more worried about him and his antics than the former.

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subtle 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

> I had been watching this guy's videos as he attempts scrambles in an amusing way but what happens at 1:53 in this video sickened me.

Oh dear, that is indeed scary stuff - and this guy makes a living dong this sort of stuff, wow.

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Xharlie 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I do wonder - what would the insurers do?  Say the woman in that video fell and ended up permanently disabled, and made a £5M claim.  Would Howden pay out and then try to reclaim it from him for acting under false pretences?  Or would they say that his insurance was invalid and simply not pay out?  If the latter I am rather more worried about him and his antics than the former.

It would suck to be the now-permanently-disabled victim, though.

It would also suck to be any other mountain guide in the industry, too, because a claim like that would surely affect the insurer's view of the risks posed by "qualified" MLs.

And it would suck to be anyone who cares about mountaineering because incidents DO affect access issues.

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Jamie Wakeham 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Xharlie:

Of course, if this muppet manages to badly hurt or kill someone, it would be a terrible thing, for all the reasons you mention (and also because it would negatively affect the perception of all properly qualified instructors). 

I'm simply interested to know if we reckon that the insurer would pay out, though.  It would indeed suck to be the now-permanently-disabled victim, but it would suck even more to find that you were destitute because your leader had no valid insurance.

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Northern Star 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Xharlie:

The other issue of course is the personal liability of this guy if he is guiding people on terrain above his qualifications.  There was a case a couple of years ago where a MTB instructor was successfully sued for £4 million after one of his clients sadly had an accident resulting in life changing injuries.  That case was not 100% clear cut, however I'm not sure this guy would be covered in any way shape or form if he is offering paid guiding way beyond his qualified remit. 

Would his insurance cough up in this situation I wonder or would he be personally liable should an accident occur?

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La benya 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

They won’t pay out if he’s not acting within the constraints of the contract. The victim would have to sue him personally which probably wouldn’t be successful as he’d likely not have any assets. Maybe a house to go after I guess. 

May first I thought the op was being a fairy and it wasn’t that bad... but the rest of his outfit is truly scary.

I detest this type of ‘video everything and make it look XTREME’ type of person.

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La benya 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

The only comment he hasn’t responded to is Steve Long who appears to have literally written the handbook

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Darren Jackson 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

The bloke's a prize plum. I wouldn't trust him to scramble an egg.

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TobyA 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

What's he done on grit?

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Northern Star 17 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

> May first I thought the op was being a fairy and it wasn’t that bad... but the rest of his outfit is truly scary.

The scariest part is that despite some very sensible comments on the video from some seriously qualified people, he still seems completely blase and remarkably dismissive of anyone's opinion but his own.  Equally blase and naively optimistic about his clients safety too from what I can see in his video.

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Rich W Parker 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Whilst he's pretty ostentatious he certainly not alone, there are more and more 'fake guides' appearing, unaware of their shortcomings, advertising their exploits and services on social media. One person is already dead. There is, currently, pretty much no regulation of mountain guiding activities in the UK so this situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.

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beardy mike 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

"I'm also a mountain guide (I even have a real life ML qualification and everything!). I love, love, loooove being out on the mountains and I love showing other people the mountains as well."

I'm sure the BMG would love to hear his new definition of a mountain guide...

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Barrington 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

This guy appears completely deluded as to his own risk assessing/problem solving capabilities & it scares the f**k out of me to think that there are youngsters out there that might actually believe his s**t. One day he will leave some family heartbroken & it will all be so senseless….

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Simon Caldwell 17 Jul 2019
In reply to pasbury:

It's OK, he says he doesn't need insurance (though claims to have some) as nobody he's "leading" is ever going to have an accident.

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TobyA 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Rich W Parker:

If there has been a fatal accident involving someone charging others to take them mountaineering, I presume it was reported in the press. If this isn't something that is somehow still involved in an official investigation or litigation, can you tell us more about what happened?

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UKC Forums 17 Jul 2019
This thread was started in the ROCKTALK forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

HILLTALK
A general forum for topics relating to hillwalking. Discuss walks you have been on, great scrambles, the best ridges, Munro-bagging and longer multi-day walks.

More Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html
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pasbury 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I think he needs to know how wide open he is to legal claims or even criminal offences re duty of care.

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baron 17 Jul 2019
In reply to TobyA:

There have been several  incidents involving guides and deaths but none in recent years as far as I know.

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In reply to kaiser:

Wow! thanks for posting this - really scary stuff

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Whitters 17 Jul 2019
In reply to overdrawnboy:

What bothers me is that he keeps banging on about how he only leads people up grade 2 scrambles if he has been out with them before and he knows the routes well etc. A little digging on his site uncovers the review by the woman in the video who says she had not met him before the day she went out with him and the video was his second time up the route. 

Slightly misleading...

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Jamie Wakeham 17 Jul 2019
In reply to pasbury:

Is he, though?  I'm very much playing devil's advocate here but - if he is making it perfectly clear to participants that he's not formally qualified for this activity and is uninsured, then I don't think he's actually breaking the law?  That he doesn't adhere to best practice in the videos we see also isn't a criminal offence in itself - though it won't be very helpful if he ends up defending himself against claim for negligence.

I don't for a second believe this is what he's doing, of course - he'll be telling his participants that he's qaulified and insured, and I am sure they'd be horrified to know that he is neither.

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kaiser 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

> Wow! thanks for posting this - really scary stuff

Thanks.  I'm glad I posted it although I could have done without being referred to as a 'fairy' on here...  What sort of word is that to use these days?  

The weight of powerful professional advice Dave has been given on youtube must surely make an impression on him.  Perhaps - just perhaps - he'll heed it.

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malk 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

thanks to this dork his 100000 subscribers know where the 'super secret' cave in the lakes is;(

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PaulJepson 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Scrambling seems like such a grey area in terms of qualifications. 

The ML qual seems to enable you to competently guide others on walks in the hills etc. but where does scrambling fall into it?

I know a lot of MLs do loads of scrambling but is that because it's the most interesting thing they can do to consolidate their QMDs? Considering winter doesn't count and as soon as you get a rope out that doesn't either, it sounds plausible that most MLs would have a lot of scrambling experience just because that's what they choose to do. Are you, as an ML, actually assessed on scrambles at all? Is there anything once qualified that says 'you may now guide people up to *this* level of scramble? Because deployment of a rope is very subjective. I've done things of Moderate/Difficult level without getting a rope out. I've also used a confidence rope with someone on a grade 1.  

It seems mad that this chap thinks scrambles like this are an appropriate thing for someone with an ML qual to take people up. A qualification that essentially says you can walk around confidently and navigate in the hills. What would happen if a storm hit while you were halfway up and your client went cragfast? Would an ML equip you with the tools to deal with that scenario? 

I genuinely don't know but there's a few people I've met working towards their ML which I wouldn't fancy being in control of that sort of situation. 

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jethro kiernan 17 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

As a rough guide, Crib Goch in good weather with confident and experienced walkers is on the border of ML territory, 

A friend who runs guiding on the Cuillin ridge will only employ MIA due to the amount of scrambling involved

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Northern Star 17 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

> it sounds plausible that most MLs would have a lot of scrambling experience just because that's what they choose to do.

From the video here he seems to find his first attempt at Bryant's Gully pretty difficult, so much so he has to bail from one reasonably easy section - unless he's just hamming in up for the camera to make it seem more dramatic for his viewers of course?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qe4cTnzD3w

If you read the comments he's not even heard of the Garry Smith guidebook, probably not the Ashton one either?  Doesn't come across from his video's that he is knowledgeable or has a lot of experience.  More just winging it as he goes I'd say and hoping he stays lucky.

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PaulJepson 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Presumably he'd be looking at jail-time if anything were to happen. I wonder if he's aware of that?

Would Brave Dave still be brave if he got sent down for manslaughter? 

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Simon Caldwell 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

He also thinks it's OK to throw a rock down a gully as long as you can't see anyone immediately below you...

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MrsBuggins 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Would it not be possible to make contact face to face with this knob and confront him with everything that is wrong about his practices and attitude. I do wonder how he would react to being told of the irresponsibility of throwing rocks off mountains. Maybe he should be told to throw himself off

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ena sharples 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

390 quid for  days "guiding"? Think i would rather employ a genuine guide for that money.

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peppermill 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

These two pages make me think the site is a piss-take. I hope I'm right.

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-insane-on-a-freight-train

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-guided-adventures-full-information

Would I be right in thinking a lot of the stuff h's charging for is waaaaaaay beyond the remit of an ML? If so there's no way he's insured to be taking clients out!

Post edited at 15:35
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richprideaux 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I've been aware of this guy for a while. He became insta-famous after a couple of his train-hopping videos got a lot of traction (ha) on Reddit and via other channels - I think he is banned from entry to the US now as a result too.

This video is... special. So is his attitude towards those commenting, especially given who they are, their experience and the way they have tried to educate/inform him.

He gets a decent amount of views on his channel, but I would hazard a guess that a lot of those views are coming from the younger demographic:

https://socialblade.com/youtube/channel/UCqwSZMx11ksCLcYbAs1vZ7w

I predict that he won't get many takers for his 'adventures', and if he does then he is going to end up in coroner's court.

tl;dr - he's a bit of a tit

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leon 1 17 Jul 2019

Even though I also have only done it a few times myself and I am in absolutely no way an expert of any sort I'll show you how to catch trains (Oyster card **), hide on trains (Toilet), get off trains (Oyster Card again) and sleep near to trains (Travel Lodge.)

So if anyone is interested I`ll charge less than Dave, It`ll be more comfortable and you'll certainly get on a train, although as in Daves trip you may get a little crushed but that's only during rush hour

Book Now only £9995......includes complimentary breakfast (You look really good

** Note 'Oyster Card' is used for illustrative purposes only and because it sounds more glamorous than 'Senior Rail Card'

Post edited at 17:09
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Rich W Parker 17 Jul 2019
In reply to TobyA:

It was widely reported and as far as I remember the judgement is online, a bit of googling will find it. 

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Steve Long 17 Jul 2019
In reply to Darren Jackson:

Who is a prize plum? Steve Long...?!

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DerwentDiluted 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNq27ygHW50

And tell me Brave Dave is not our old friend Zimpara.

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jethro kiernan 17 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

He’s gaining some traction on Facebook now for much the same reason, his claim to be a “guide” has been brought up by some ML types

100,000 followers though, even if 0.05 % are tempted by some guiding that’s still 50 people in some serious danger. 😕

Post edited at 22:02
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deepsoup 17 Jul 2019
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Ok - he's not our old friend Zimpara. 

At least, I really don't think so.  The resemblance is striking though, I'll give you that.

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Donny M 17 Jul 2019

Jesus Christ the comments over the last 24 hours have absolutely destroyed him. 

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La benya 18 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

I think he is you know. Add few years and a few pounds to zimpara and you get Dave. 

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Donny M:

> Jesus Christ the comments over the last 24 hours have absolutely destroyed him.

I don't think anyone is looking to 'destroy him', perhaps just to make him and his potential clients a little more aware of what the limitations surrounding a ML qualification entail and hopefully point out a few things more he could be doing to enhance the safety of any clients he does happen to take up into the hills.  So far he seems recklessly dismissive of any advice given and would rather by the looks of his comments ridicule anyone who disagrees with him rather than take the 'Brave' step of self awareness, evaluation and engaging without the ego with those with far more experience so that he can learn from them.  Brave Dave - perhaps not!

I think that genuine mountain guides might also be worried that this guy, by calling himself a guide will bring the whole guiding industry into disrepute if there is an incident (remember the press won't know or care about the difference between an ML and MIA/MIC) and all will be tarred with the same brush.  He might also of course be taking paid scrambling work away from other genuine guides (who have put the hard years in to get where they are) if clients sign up with him, his clients blissfully unaware that they are being put in unnecessary danger compared to the best practice approach employed by a proper guide.

A personal bugbear with him is that he's bigging up scrambling routes on the internet that really are pretty easy and straightforward for any competent scrambler as some sort of mad and extreme adventure.  He seems to enjoy taking unnecessary risks and his YouTube followers seem to be lapping it up.  Personally most good climbers I know are massively risk adverse, and don't feel the need to GoPro everything or big themselves up to those who don't know any better after completing some E grade epic.  A pint in the pub afterwards will generally suffice.  I think he's trying way too hard to be liked or famous, but not doing anything even remotely worthy to justify that, and I can't work out why?

Post edited at 09:59
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Whitters 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

>  I think he's trying way too hard to be liked or famous and I can't work out why?

The Kim Kardashian of the outdoor world...

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Lusk 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

>   So far he seems recklessly dismissive of any advice given and would rather by the looks of his comments ridicule anyone who disagrees with him 

Classic zimpara!

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Darren Jackson 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Steve Long:

> Who is a prize plum? Steve Long...?!

Brave Dave is a prize plum... I have no evidence for the plum-like qualities of Steve Long.

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Andy Gamisou 18 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

> I think he is you know. Add few years and a few pounds to zimpara and you get Dave. 


I tend to agree. An additional bit of circumstantial evidence is that Zimpy, judging by his youtube profile, is ex-military of some sort. Dave the Brave starts his video by referring to holds as "grips". The only group of people I've come across who use this term is British military (and the ones I've come across all seem to have the same self confidence of Zimpy and Dave, despite also being pretty hopeless). Ipso facto ;-)

Post edited at 12:51
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TobyA 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Didn't that Zimpara bloke have a distinct South African (or southern African) accent? Brave Dave sounds scouse-ish to me.

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Donny M 18 Jul 2019
In reply to TobyA:

Can someone enlighten me on this Zimpara fellow?

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

The two guys accents are totally different - not the same chap IMO.

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Hat Dude 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

I don't think they are one and the same.

I can see a likeness though and suspect they are both from the same mould which made me think "They broke the mould" - before they were cast!!!!

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Andy Gamisou 18 Jul 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> Didn't that Zimpara bloke have a distinct South African (or southern African) accent? Brave Dave sounds scouse-ish to me.

Well, not to me they don't. Not that I claim any great ear for accents, so happy to be proved wrong.

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Sputnick 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Removing a potential life threatening obstacle, sickened you. Wow. the chances of him not knowing there was nobody below or that it wouldn't fall into an place unseen are unproven. Your all pissed because he's not a proper guide. In my long experience proper guides are arrogant pricks too.

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La benya 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

Dave?

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ebdon 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

That really is a ridiculous comment please please please never do this. Anyone who has any experience climbing knows you never intentionally lob rocks off without knowing exactly what's underneath you and shouting a warning regardless. Especially on easy terrain where there will be a ton of loose stuff and you don't know what's below you. You will kill people. 

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PaulJepson 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

The fact he (you?) didn't shout "BELOOOOOOOOOW!" regardless of whether he (you?) thought anyone was there is very telling of his (your?) experience level. 

I've only been climbing a few years but even if I was on a desert island with no one else there I'd shout "BELOW!" if I knocked a rock off or "ROPE!" if I chucked a rope down. 

By not doing so you are not only endangering people below you but also teaching the people around that it's okay to do that. The next time that lass finds a bit of rock (or anyone watching these dumb fish-eye videos), they'll think it's fine to chuck rock off because they saw a 'guide' do it.

Whether you think there's anyone there or not is completely irrelevant. If you chuck something off, drop something, or break off a hold you ALWAYS call a warning. 

And people are pissed because he is bringing their job into disrepute. And calling himself a guide, when nothing he is doing is guiding. 

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

> Removing a potential life threatening obstacle, sickened you. Wow. the chances of him not knowing there was nobody below or that it wouldn't fall into an place unseen are unproven. Your all pissed because he's not a proper guide. In my long experience proper guides are arrogant pricks too.

No I think the issues are that he is operating well outside of his training, qualifications and ability.  He is (most probably) in breach of his current insurance policy, and also shows a very lax and inexperienced approach to client safety.  Plus he gets very defensive and seems quite immature when he is dared to be questioned about any of this. 

Proper guides can be pricks too I'm sure, same as anyone (although none that I've met), but at least they have the hard-won years of training and experience to keep their clients relatively safe compared to this guy who seemingly just takes money from rather naive punters who have been impressed by  his 'daring-do deeds' online before 'guiding' them (and I use the term 'guiding' term loosely) into dicey situations that are really well outside of his control and influence. 

If you were a guide having trained for 5-10 years to get the relevant qualifications to take people scrambling/climbing in the mountains and this guy rocks up without any of that and pinches your clients and takes massive short cuts with safety would you be happy? 

If you were a client having paid this guy upfront (as he demands) would you be rather annoyed to discover later that he hasn't even done any of the relevant training to keep you safe? 

Perhaps this is why he asks for full payment up front?

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

> The weight of powerful professional advice Dave has been given on youtube must surely make an impression on him.  Perhaps - just perhaps - he'll heed it.

No signs of that yet on his comments, he's still on the defensive - ducking, diving and still thinking he knows best!  Also still no reply to Steve Long either - funny that!  Not 'BraveDave' at all then?

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DerwentDiluted 18 Jul 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> Didn't that Zimpara bloke have a distinct South African (or southern African) accent? Brave Dave sounds scouse-ish to me.

Zim- babwe, he was a Para. I don't actually think now they are the same person, though they were clearly separated at birth. 

Post edited at 16:22
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Sputnick 18 Jul 2019
In reply to ebdon:

I hope people who have passed before me ,remove any loose rock. How much choss do you reckon  Joe Brown tossed away. You represent the new shit wave of risk assessed unadventuress snowflakes. Saying that. You were the most moderate  x

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Jezz0r 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

Removing loose rock from a vertical single pitch climb where you know exactly who is below you is very different from removing loose rock from a scramble. If you removed all the loose rock from that route, there'd be no route left.

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Simon Caldwell 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

The rock that you removed could and should have been gently replaced where it was. Throwing it down a gully that is full of loose rock is reckless in the extreme - it could easily dislodge other larger rocks.

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Sputnick 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Jezz0r:

J.B single pitch climb??? Ok do you want me to name all his multi pitch....or all the other pioneers.  Loose dangerous shit on any route should be carefully disposed off if safe. Have you ever nearly put your entire life on an unattached flake.. Bristly Ridge 2019. It got trundled 3am.  Never said a word.

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

I unintentionally removed a loose rock 2 years ago on Bryant's Gully.  It was about the size of a dishwasher.  At first appearances and because of it's size it seemed stable so I was holding onto it at the time.  Luckily it fell between my legs grazing my calf and ankle as it passed. 

Had I not reached out and grabbed another more stable bit of rock next to it as soon as I felt the large block move (pure instinct) then I'd have been off backwards with it, 10-15 metres back down the steep drop into the gully, probably to a fairly messy end. 

Closest I've come in all these years to a serious accident.  Having easily soloed Bryants Gully 4-5 times before then I was definitely a little too blase about the route on this occasion.  You live and learn!

Post edited at 17:16
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Sputnick 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

That's crap. He nearly pulled on it. His client  might have. If I dislodge a piece of sand from the summit  of a mountain....

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McHeath 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

So If you'd been in the hidden part of the gully below him and had ended up in hospital with a few inches of sharp stone impaling your skull, you'd have written to thank him for making the route safer once you'd got discharged and found the video?

(Edit: typo)

Post edited at 17:40
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deepsoup 18 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

> Add few years and a few pounds to zimpara and you get Dave. 

Also an entirely different speaking voice and regional accent.  Looks just like him, sounds nothing like..

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ebdon 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

I've done more adventurous new routing at a decent standard over the last 20 years than you've had hot dinners you tool

I refer you to Pasburys comment at 15:07

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deepsoup 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Donny M:

> Can someone enlighten me on this Zimpara fellow?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=195302

Former regular poster on here with certain erm..  personal qualities in common with BD*.  And, as it turns out, quite a strong physical resemblance to him as well.

* ie:  Not without a certain charm, commendably full of enthusiasm, but the very embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect and unfortunately dismissive of anyone trying to tell him owt - including some very experienced people genuinely trying to offer friendly advice for his own good.

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TobyA 18 Jul 2019
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

That occured to me as a rather unsubtle clue just after I had hit send! I'm impressed that I somehow could tell the difference between a SA anglo accent and Zimbabwean anglo accent though!

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Sputnick 18 Jul 2019
In reply to ebdon:

Go on. Tell me your superior route knowledge 

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Northern Star 18 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> the very embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect and unfortunately dismissive of anyone trying to tell him owt - including some very experienced people genuinely trying to offer friendly advice for his own good.

Had to google that but hahaha that's absolutely brilliant.  Can't believe I've never seen this before!

This diagram explains it perfectly: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShootTheBarrel/comments/8a1a7d/the_dunningkruger_effect_is_a_cognitive_bias/

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jethro kiernan 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

DD needs to conquer mount Stupid before he carries on to conquering mount Snowdon 

*conquering used in ironic context

*mount also used in ironic context

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Steve Ashton 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Couple of extracts from Dave's promotional video: "Four beginners on Crib Goch in high wind - just what we need... We've just had some of the strongest gusts I have ever experienced up here... it actually knocked me off my feet."

Ironically, he signs off the promo with: "Come with me if you want to live."

Back in the 70s, when unqualified instructors were common and private insurance unheard of, I used to take people canoeing around Great Orme, scrambling up river gorges, exploring abandoned lead mines, and climbing rock routes and minor alpine peaks. True, you had to have experience and come recommended, but still... The responsibility was immense. I woke up one morning in a cold sweat and vowed never to do it again. I had imagined the worst.

I doubt Dave will take much notice of critical comments, either here or on YouTube, so could someone on the ground in North Wales - a qualified guide for example - please invite him for a pint and a friendly chat at a local pub. He's clearly bright and enthusiastic, just lacking in imagination. Help him to imagine the worst.

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louiswain 18 Jul 2019
Gordon Stainforth 18 Jul 2019
In reply to louiswain:

I think £20 a month, simply for 'hosting' it once he's designed it, is pretty steep.

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kaiser 18 Jul 2019
In reply to louiswain:

> Brave Dave also makes websites.

And if there's any loose code on your site he'll kindly bung it down Internet Gully to keep everyone else safe

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kaiser 18 Jul 2019

The original video itself now seems to have been chucked down Internet Gully too...

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DerwentDiluted 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

> The original video itself now seems to have been chucked down Internet Gully too...

Adios!

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mcdougal 18 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

He's probably taken it down so no prospective clients can read the YouTube message thread.

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Bojo 18 Jul 2019
In reply to Sputnick:

With an attitude like yours you are obviously an arsehole who should be avoided on the hills(and elsewhere) at all costs.

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Jamie Wakeham 18 Jul 2019
In reply to mcdougal:

I wondered how long that would take...

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I’ve been subscribed to him since the early days. It’s a bit of fun. As far as I can see he’s experienced in North Wales and has done his ML. 

The girl was obviously experienced, chucking a loose rock into a deserted gully doesn’t deserve the full scale character assassination of the self righteous people here. 

I’m fairly sure we’ve had posts that have run into pages with various individuals offering armchair opinions of what is and isn’t considered ML territory, my own take is it’s down to the ML to make a call based on weather conditions, condition of route, weather forecast, ability of group etc etc. 

The fisheye lens is used for dramatic purpose there. 

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Barrington 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

So, he's Dave Tew then & according to his Facebook page; passed his ML in April this year........ moving quickly to the dizzy heights of "Guide", perhaps the altitude made him a tad air-headed?

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The New NickB 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> I’ve been subscribed to him since the early days. It’s a bit of fun. As far as I can see he’s experienced in North Wales and has done his ML. 

> The girl was obviously experienced, chucking a loose rock into a deserted gully doesn’t deserve the full scale character assassination of the self righteous people here. 

> I’m fairly sure we’ve had posts that have run into pages with various individuals offering armchair opinions of what is and isn’t considered ML territory, my own take is it’s down to the ML to make a call based on weather conditions, condition of route, weather forecast, ability of group etc etc. 

> The fisheye lens is used for dramatic purpose there. 

We have had lengthy threads about whether Crib Goch is ML territory. Let’s assume it is, just. This isn’t Crib Goch, it’s a grade or two harder for a start. I’m also happy to defer to Steve Long, who knows a bit about the ML qualification. He is very clear that this route is out of scope and that he is demonstrating terrible practice as well, regardless of any qualification he may have.

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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ebdon:

> I've done more adventurous new routing at a decent standard over the last 20 years than you've had hot dinners you tool

> I refer you to Pasburys comment at 15:07

It’s been deleted.

I called him a tw*t which I stand by, especially in relation his first post.

If you can’t in good faith call someone, who is being a tw*t on this forum, a tw*t then I suppose the mods had better ban me.

Post edited at 00:36
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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> I’ve been subscribed to him since the early days. It’s a bit of fun. As far as I can see he’s experienced in North Wales and has done his ML. 

> The girl was obviously experienced, chucking a loose rock into a deserted gully doesn’t deserve the full scale character assassination of the self righteous people here. 

> I’m fairly sure we’ve had posts that have run into pages with various individuals offering armchair opinions of what is and isn’t considered ML territory, my own take is it’s down to the ML to make a call based on weather conditions, condition of route, weather forecast, ability of group etc etc. 

> The fisheye lens is used for dramatic purpose there. 

Pretty sure you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

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GPN 19 Jul 2019
deepsoup 19 Jul 2019
In reply to mcdougal:

> He's probably taken it down so no prospective clients can read the YouTube message thread.

Can't really blame him for that, lets hope he's taken the thoughtful advice he was offered on that thread to heart.

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BoingBoing 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

>  chucking a loose rock into a deserted gully doesn’t deserve the full scale character assassination of the self righteous people here. 

 You are as big a shit as he is.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

It’s a grade 2+. He said in the video “Not a place for the inexperienced”, the girl clearly knows what she is doing. He’s showing her the route. 

As long as he tailors his routes to the ability of his clients, what exactly is the issue?

Post edited at 08:19
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Northern Star 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> As long as he tailors his routes to the ability of his clients, what exactly is the issue?

Have you actually bothered to read the thread?

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Tom Loughlin 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I don’t think the competence of the client is the key point here is it. It’s the competence of a self-styled ‘mountain guide’ who is not in any way qualified to be making that statement, operating with poor practice on terrain above and beyond his remit. Added to this the compelling evidence from his videos that he’s enthusiastic but naive (not knowing about routes/ not heard of other actual guides/ no respect for others much more experienced than him) and claims to ‘not really care about insurance’: would you be comfortable with your wife/ husband/ sibling/ child being ‘guided’ by this man?

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Tom V 19 Jul 2019
In reply to BoingBoing:

That's pretty far off the mark.

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fmck 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

This is the best thread since the bench on Ben Nevis. 

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Climbpsyched 19 Jul 2019
In reply to GPN:

Some learning on the job for him right there. 

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jethro kiernan 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7INuayuIT4

Brave Dave showing his winter ML skills 😕

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krikoman 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

> I had been watching this guy's videos as he attempts scrambles in an amusing way but what happens at 1:53 in this video sickened me.

> I commented accordingly on the video as you'll see.


the link doesn't work any more but I looked at some of the other stuff!!! FFS! I'd need about 5 minutes with him and you'd be pushing him off, and saying he slipped

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Andy Hardy 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Climbpsyched:

Brave Dave doesn't seem to have any control over his impulses, or the ability to imagine what consequences might be. It's like he stopped growing up at about age 9.

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Northern Star 19 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> Brave Dave showing his winter ML skills 😕

Winter ML too?  Christ I hope these were mates rather than paying customers.  The more I see then the more you realise he's just totally winging it, using paying clients as his guinea pigs.  What a total mess!

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jethro kiernan 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

I don’t think they are paying customers, however he is definitely “leading” them

I'm personally trying to accumulate some upto date winter QMD to do my winter ML,a struggle last winter 😕 but this is because despite having more than enough experience and QMD’s over the years I feel I should have fulfilled the minimum QMD with upto date days out were I’m honing the skills needed for being an WML.

its fairly obvious the guy is out of his depth but if he could channel his enthusiasm into learning and consolidating skills then maybe 😏, it’s when you see this that I can agree with the argument that Bear Grylls is a totally bad choice as chief scout 

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Northern Star 19 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

Yes I think he's trying to be the next Bear Grylls.  Whatever you think though of Bear Grylls debatable antics and methods though, kids do seem to love him and if that gets more people joining the cubs, scouts, guides etc then that can only be a good thing. 

Same with this guy, if he upped his game on the safety, responsibility and experience front, stopped taking stupid risks with his clients safety, dropped the ego and chose to learn from those more experienced than him, concentrated on his clients rather than on filming stuff for publicity, and stuck to his remit as ML then he could be just the sort of 'cheeky chappie' who'd be ideal to inspire groups of kids or newbie walkers in the mountains.

Post edited at 11:28
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derryclimbs 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> Same with this guy, if he upped his game on the safety, responsibility and experience front, stopped taking stupid risks with his clients safety, dropped the ego and chose to learn from those more experienced than him, concentrated on his clients rather than on filming stuff for publicity, 

Yes, but how is that going to satisfy the insta-generation?

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

He has done the ML and someone has passed him!

My firm belief isn’t that these videos are deliberately made to look more scary than they are. The girl doesn’t look worried, the guys in the winter are not bumbling around. 

As I say, I’ve been following him for a while and seen a lot of videos. I know he has two channels and I think this one has been set up recently deliberately to target his guiding business. 

Assuming the BMC, or whoever is in charge of issuing ML awards and maintaining standards, keep proper records, it shouldn’t be too hard for them to contact him and find out exactly what’s going on. 

Bear has a safety team just out of sight and a warm hotel room. What you see on videos isn’t always real. 

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ScottTalbot 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I have to admit, I've been subscribed to Brave Dave's channel for a while now. It's so gloriously cringey, I can't look away! Even for a second...

It's only a matter of time before he kills himself, or someone else, and I wonder what sort of liability there will be for whoever passed his assessment!? Are they in any way liable?

I didn't know that scrambling was out of the remit of ML's. I'm actually surprised by that, as I thought ropework and scrambling was covered. I'm booked onto Summer ML training in October and a 30m rope is on the recommended kitlist.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Quite. Are we supposed to walk around the hills, stick to the paths and not touch the rocks with our hands now?

Post edited at 12:12
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Alex Riley 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

If you passed your driving test then crashed would your driving instructor be liable?

Scrambling is included in the ml scheme, but if the rope is used for anything other than confidence roping (on non serious, non technical terrain) or in an emergency then the ml is outside of remit. Most MLS are only insured for staying within the remit of their qualification/s. In this instance there is no way for Dave to safeguard his client in the event of a slip or fall and is well outside of the remit of an ML (assuming he doesn't have further insurance cover). 

To give an idea of what is appropriate, scrambles like tryfan north ridge and crib coch would be considered top end for an ml with good weather conditions and the right group ( ie experienced or well able).

Post edited at 12:21
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captain paranoia 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> Yes I think he's trying to be the next Bear Grylls

That was what crossed my mind, given the descriptions I've read.

I don't think that's a good thing...

Post edited at 12:20
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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

The streets are policed to make sure drivers maintain the standard expected. 

If you can issue an ML ‘licence’ but there are no follow up checks or policing then I question the validity of the award. 

Wonder how many MLs frequently take their clients scrambling, but just don’t post scary YouTube clips. 

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richprideaux 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> The streets are policed to make sure drivers maintain the standard expected. 

> If you can issue an ML ‘licence’ but there are no follow up checks or policing then I question the validity of the award. 

It's not a licence to lead. It's an assessed training scheme with training pre-requisites and a long-established process.  It just happens to be the one accepted by the 'industry' and is the one most recognised by insurers, the HSE and other relevant bodies and organisations.

> Wonder how many MLs frequently take their clients scrambling, but just don’t post scary YouTube clips. 

Plenty of MLs take clients onto graded scrambling routes. There are safer, less committing and more appropriate scrambles than Bryant's Gully.

You don't need an ML award to lead people (adults anyway) in the British mountains, and Dave Tew should be allowed to continue his personal adventures and risk his own life.

BUT - if someone is using the work of other in creating, maintaining and working with a long-established training scheme to sell his inexperience, recklessness and general feckwittery to unsuspecting punters then he deserves to be roundly ridiculed, criticised and called a knob.

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ScottTalbot 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

I'm pretty sure forklift instructors can face charges, but I'm not sure what sort of time constraints are involved.

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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

The validity is that it acts as a legal proof of competence in the event of a lawsuit. For the activities it is meant to cover. This guy is operating outside the limits of what the ML qualification is meant to cover. One slip by a paying client on this sort of ground will probably lead to serious injury or death. Then he will probably have a lawsuit coming his way.

What’s so difficult to understand about that.

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Northern Star 19 Jul 2019
In reply to pasbury:

> The validity is that it acts as a legal proof of competence in the event of a lawsuit. For the activities it is meant to cover. This guy is operating outside the limits of what the ML qualification is meant to cover. One slip by a paying client on this sort of ground will probably lead to serious injury or death. Then he will probably have a lawsuit coming his way.

> What’s so difficult to understand about that.

But referring back to the comments he made in his now deleted video, when pressed on this he said something along the lines of "but his client's won't fall" !!!

Post edited at 13:04
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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to pasbury:

It’s no more a proof of competence than an MOT certificate is a proof of road worthiness. 

I’d suggest it’s a qualification that you can use to get a job in the industry. Then it would be down to your employers to ensure you receive regular training and updates. 

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DerwentDiluted 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> But referring back to the comments he made in his now deleted video, when pressed on this he said something along the lines of "but his client's won't fall" !!!

He said 'hopefully they won't fall' and 'if they keep three points of contact then there is no reason why they should fall'.  Utterly failing to comprehend that the difficulties start when some sort of force majeure means 3 points of contact can't be maintained.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

I doubt it would be that cut and dried. If the client was confident and experienced and Dave is just guiding the route, why should she then be roped up and wear a helmet just to satisfy everyone else’s view of what is and isn’t safe? 

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Forklift drivers and instructors are operating purely within a work environment. 

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fmck 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

He kind of reminds me of Karl Pilkington. 

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Northern Star 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> I doubt it would be that cut and dried. If the client was confident and experienced and Dave is just guiding the route, why should she then be roped up and wear a helmet just to satisfy everyone else’s view of what is and isn’t safe?

If she was confident and experienced then why should she need a guide?  She was reasonably scared I'd say as could be seen with her reaction to the moment when Dave said "sh*t's about to get real" as he gazed higher up the scramble.

But that is all academic because Dave, as an ML shouldn't be guiding that scramble in the first place since with any grade 2/3 scramble then there is a reasonable chance that a rope would need to be used.

I think you are confusing personal responsibility in the hills (if we are acting independently then we all have a decision whether to use a helmet or not in any given situation), with the responsibilities of someone who is supposed to be acting with a duty of care for a paying and inexperienced client.

Post edited at 13:33
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Alex Riley 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Guiding = duty of care

Duty of care = suitable measures put in place to ensure safety. 

I could have the most experienced client in the world, but if I'm responsible for their safety, I'll damn sure be following best practice for the terrain I'm on.

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Jmacquarrie 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Forklift drivers and instructors are operating purely within a work environment. 

And if you're charging someone to guide them that is also a work environment.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> And if you're charging someone to guide them that is also a work environment.

So whoever passed Dave would be hauled over the coals if there’s an accident? 

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Lusk 19 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I've got to admire him, if anyone does shell out that amount of cash, good luck to him!
Can't argue with his T&Cs

I've done gravel train hopping in the past, it's great fun.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Lusk:

Quite. That’s a brilliant tongue in cheek send up.

“*not really.” probably sums it up well, but I bet he still gets emails about it.

He’s not allowed into North America.

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Alex Riley 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

To use the driving analogy again.

If you drove fine in your test, then after drank a bottle of whisky (invalidating your insurance) then crashed why on earth would your driving instructor get hauled over the coals?

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

They wouldn’t as learning to drive isn’t done as a workplace activity like learning to drive a forklift truck is. 

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DubyaJamesDubya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> So whoever passed Dave would be hauled over the coals if there’s an accident? 

No more than your driving instructor would be locked up if you choose to drink-drive after you've passed your test. You know it's wrong but you do it anyway (pretending it's ok to yourself makes no difference)

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ScottTalbot 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Not necessarily because there was an accident, but because he clearly has no understanding of acceptable risk. His lack of understanding should have been evident on his assessment.

I've watched all of his scrambling videos and he doesn't appear to ever stay on route. He doesn't appear to use guide books. He climbs up sections that doesn't think he can down climb!? This all shows very poor judgement.l and a general lack of know how imho.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

The fact it should have been “evident on his assessment” still leans me towards someone who does actually know what they’re doing and just has a more lenient view of risk. This is a guy who freight hopped across the US. His view of what’s dangerous isn’t going to be the same as yours or mine.

Isn’t that the idea of scrambling? There’s often no specific route, you just pick whatever looks interesting as you go. 

Many people claim to have scrambled Tryfan several times and never gone the same route twice. 

Post edited at 14:08
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The New NickB 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Are you honestly saying that because he has a distorted view of risk, we should view his actions differently when he is “guiding” people?

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ScottTalbot 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

To an extent. I'll give an example:

A couple of years ago, I attempted Bristley Ridge. I'd seen it in a guidebook about 10 years previously, but never got round to doing it. I forgot my guidebook on this trip, but decided to attempt it anyway.

I started in the wrong gully, but it wasn't beyond my ability, so I just climbed away and it was enjoyable, but I was aware that I could be on the wrong route. I got all the way to the great pinnacle and looked up at the almost flat wall (I didn't know at the time, that the route moved round the side of the pinnacle)... I knew I'd struggle to down-climb it, if it become too hard to continue, so I backed off the route.

Now, I could've gone straight up the pinnacle, and maybe I'd have been fine, but maybe isn't an acceptable risk. You should know your own ability.

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DubyaJamesDubya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

You keep using arguments that are fine as justification for an individual's actions (rock lobbing without warning aside) but not for a guide.

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MuckyMorris 19 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Just done my training not too long ago Scott. ML does not cover "planned use of a rope". The rope work is to safeguard people generally on retreat, as it's usually safer to retreat than climb higher. Obviously this isn't always the case but that's the general rule. 

Scrambling is in that grey area as to who needs or wants a rope is very personal. I personally think, and heard nothing to dispute this from the instructors, that Grade 1 scrambles are within remit. But several instructors have said that guiding people on Crib Goch is the worst day as an ML as there is very little that can be done to safeguard them once committed. I see that he took 4 beginners along there in high winds....

Finally you need to be comfortable on grade 1 ground, at least for PyB, not necessarily to lead groups on it but so you have a bit in reserve whilst leading.

He's definitely clueless on that winter scramble, which is most definitely not within SML remit. Don't know if they are clients or not though.

Good luck with your training, it's good fun.

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PaulJepson 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Wonder how many MLs frequently take their clients scrambling, but just don’t post scary YouTube clips. 

My guess would be not that many. I know lots of indoor and outdoor Climbing Instructors, Mountain Leaders, Guides, etc. and have come across plenty on courses I've done. They're generally very risk-averse and don't act outside their remit or what they're qualified to do. They understand that their livelihood is at risk if they do and being safe and responsible is drilled into them from day 1. Primarily they understand that THEY ALONE are responsible for the safety of others and take it very seriously. 

Anyone of sound mind who knew what they were doing would be. If anything happened to one of your clients, you'd feel terrible about it. Never mind the legal ramifications and the fact that it could end your career. You'd constantly be questioning whether it was your fault and if there was anything you could have done to avoid it. In the case of Brave Dave, the answer would be "Yes, Dave. A f*cking lot of things".

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ScottTalbot 19 Jul 2019
In reply to MuckyMorris:

Thanks for the clarification. 👍

Where scrambles are concerned, there are grade 1's and there are grade 1's. 😁

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La benya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

In your analogy Dave is the employer and employee. He should be ensuring he follows best practice and keeping himself up to date with training and methods. If he is, and someone has an accident then so be it, he’s got a good defence and should be ok. The way he is going he has none of this and will be rightly fudged should the worst happen.

As has been pointed out, having an ML qualification is only so relevant without the membership to the relevant accredited society which would monitor standards. If they audited him on this evidence and said he was fine and THEN he killed someone, they would probably be liable. 

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Name Changed 34 19 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

Hope he and his clients cray a organ donation card

Post edited at 16:27
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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

Quite. I don’t disagree with any of that. 

I’m not sure that a mass internet assault on the guy is the best way to go about it. At best it’s bullying. 

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Stichtplate 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Someone claiming a level of experience and expertise they have no right to and proffering very dodgy advice on that basis? Entirely within the norms of UKC isn’t it.

edit: to be fair though, he definitely cast the first stone in this case.

Post edited at 16:28
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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

But could you go on an easy grade 1 scramble and video it in such a way to make it look very frightening? Bear Grylls makes walking on lava look like a death defying feat. 

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PaulJepson 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> I’m not sure that a mass internet assault on the guy is the best way to go about it. At best it’s bullying. 

Some people deserve a good bullying. 

He had his opportunity to not be a total bellend at the start when qualified, respected members of the climbing community were trying to help him. Had he responded pragmatically, he wouldn't be catching this heat. He chose instead to respond like a child so he's getting picked on like one.  

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The New NickB 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

At best it’s giving the guy a reality check, helping to maintain some credibility in the outdoor industry and saving someone from death or serious injury.

At worst Brave Dave isn’t very happy.

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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Quite. I don’t disagree with any of that. 

> I’m not sure that a mass internet assault on the guy is the best way to go about it. At best it’s bullying. 

Not the case, a lot of us seem to seeing the same potential train wreck with the guy’s approach to his job. I’m more concerned for his clients of course, but also to see he heeds some sensible advice for his own protection, if he mugged up a bit and put the effort in maybe he could make a good honest living this way. If not he’s heading for court.

Be brave Dave.

Post edited at 17:30
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The New NickB 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> But could you go on an easy grade 1 scramble and video it in such a way to make it look very frightening? Bear Grylls makes walking on lava look like a death defying feat. 

Course you can, people do it all the time. However, this wasn’t an easy grade 1 scramble and he was putting his client in genuine danger as a consequence of his cavalier attitude and poor decision making.

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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Plus remember that if somebody like bravedave is involved in a nasty accident with a paying client there will be repercussions for a lot of far more sensible people in the outdoor industry.

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jethro kiernan 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I don’t know if you caught the you tube comments before he took it down, it was by and large very polite and all the professional outdoor people offered considered and polite advice. For an internet pile on it was very mild and the concern was real, bearing in mind some of the persons were MRT and would be responsible for clearing up the mess.

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La benya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I think you’ll find everyone was being quite supportive of him on YouTube, giving him loads of great advice to which he told everyone f*ck off. He’s a knob. 

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

and others.

Given its perfectly simple to email him, isn’t that a more sensible approach? Publicly calling out peoole in Internet forums and on YouTube never results in a good outcome.  

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Bojo 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I've just e.ailed BraveDave to ask if he's orga ising any Himalayan trips ;)

I fancy lobbing a few boulders down the Khumbu glacier

Post edited at 17:59
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La benya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Eh?

If their preferred method of interaction with the wider public is youtube.... expect people to reply on YouTube.

i think you’ve got your pants in a twist over the wrong things and can’t find a way to back out. It’s ok to change your mind. 

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pasbury 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> and others.

> Given its perfectly simple to email him, isn’t that a more sensible approach? Publicly calling out peoole in Internet forums and on YouTube never results in a good outcome.  

You live by the sword etc

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jethro kiernan 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Bearing in mind he was using the video to toute for business it probably was the place

Post edited at 18:26
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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

My pants aren’t in a twist. I’m just trying to be a bit more rational. 

I have experience of talking directly to organisers of events when things have gone wrong. They don’t tend to make public statements on forums but always reply to considered emails. I also organise events where public interaction with clients have to be handled properly.

Advertising your business online is a very difficult balancing act. I wouldn’t enter into open ended conversation online with anyone who was negative about an event. Replies would be close ended and ask to contact via email to resolve. 

He obviously got it wrong there, I don’t know, I didn’t see the replies I just saw a load of people jumping in on the video comments, whether that’s done sensitively or well meaning it’s still criticism. 

There’s no live by the sword die by the sword.

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

No. It just isn’t. It doesn’t work both ways in that situation. 

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fmck 19 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I can only thank the guy for bringing back a  good ole ukc ranting thread. It's been so long! You got to grin when folk forget the topic and descend into insults at each other.  

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asteclaru 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Numerous well qualified mountaineering instructors, guides, assessors, you name it, pointed out that he is acting outside of his remit as an ML.

He resorted to call everyone keyboard warriors and armchair experts.

He got off lightly IMO

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DancingOnRock 19 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

As I say. It’s not the place. I wouldn’t have replied. 

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jezb1 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> As I say. It’s not the place. I wouldn’t have replied. 

Some people emailed. Some people offered to go for a pint with him. Some people spoke to MT / MTA about it.

Apparently he’s making a video reply... 

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kaiser 19 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

> Apparently he’s making a video reply... 

Alexa - order popcorn

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La benya 19 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

That’s all very well and good... but you aren’t him and he’s done things very differently. Why are you trying to argue that because you would do things one way and expect a certain response that he should get the same response when he’s acted so completely differently. 

I’m sure you knickers are arranged properly. I was just pointing out that IF you had picked the wrong side of an argument it’s ok to backtrack and admit when you’re wrong rather than continue fighting the good fight... purely hypothetical obviously. 

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DancingOnRock 20 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

I’m not wrong. I’m not arguing. I’m just putting across a point of view. My point of view doesn’t change just because it doesn’t match yours. My point of view is based on my experience.

What’s your experience? Do you guide? Do you have a business with an online presence or any experience of dealing with large numbers of potential clients online? 

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Andy Hardy 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Brave Dave doesn't seem to do "considered" though, and if anyone reading the negative comments his video richly deserved is put off from wasting their money on his "guiding" services, then that can only be a good thing. Probably saved the local MRT a job too.

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Trangia 20 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Tried to open your link - it's been pulled

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DancingOnRock 20 Jul 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

That’s your opinion from watching some videos. 

The guy is an ML. Someone somewhere has assessed him. 

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Tom Loughlin 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

But he’s not operating in line with the training he has received and completed. Not my opinion, the judgement of the guy who literally wrote the handbook. He is gaining legitimacy from using that qualification whilst doing stuff way beyond it, showing a quite cavalier if not callous attitude towards the safety of his clients. So, pointing out he has completed a course really proves nothing. 

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Andy Hardy 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> That’s your opinion from watching some videos. 

> The guy is an ML. Someone somewhere has assessed him. 

I've got a driving licence, doesn't mean I can fly a helicopter. 

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Jamie Wakeham 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Is it so hard to understand that he may have behaved differently on assesment day?

That idiot in the BMW who cut you up managed, at some point in time, to drive in a manner that allowed him to pass his driving test. We don't blame the driving test examiner for his subsequent behaviour. 

Quite apart from the fact that what he was being assessed for, and what he's now doing, are two different things. 

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In reply to kaiser:

Jesus Christ. 

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La benya 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Your experience of what? Pointing out someone is being unsafe in a youtube video? You’re getting defensive and arguing for he sake of it. Paddle back a bit and have another think. 

The guy is poor at what he’s doing. He was a knob about it. You’re trying to defend him. 

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PaulJepson 20 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I think there were a few people that did message him privately and got the same nobhead responses he was dishing out on the comments. 

What he's doing would be like me getting a CWI and then guiding people up trad routes. The general public wouldn't know any better but it's essentially fraud. 

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Blanche DuBois 20 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:Good

> The general public wouldn't know any better but it's essentially fraud. 

Quite. And what our Dancing friend is ignoring is that he is, on his website, deliberately targeting those without the knowledge and experience.to realize how downright sketchy his practices are.  To suggest that he shouldn't be called out on a platform that he is touting for such individuals is irresponsible. 

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Northern Star 20 Jul 2019
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

> Good

> > The general public wouldn't know any better but it's essentially fraud. 

> Quite. And what our Dancing friend is ignoring is that he is, on his website, deliberately targeting those without the knowledge and experience.to realize how downright sketchy his practices are.  To suggest that he shouldn't be called out on a platform that he is touting for such individuals is irresponsible. 

Totally agree, a quick straw poll of those online who are seemingly impressed by his 'ever so daring' antics, not many seem to have much in the way of mountain or outdoor experience - otherwise, if they did they wouldn't be impressed.

He seems to be both fraudulently exaggerating his own qualifications and experience, whilst at the same time misleading gullible people into believing that what he's doing is somehow extreme and 'out there' when really it's mostly beginner level scrambling.  Again feels like fraud!

As for the train hopping stuff it's illegal yes, but I suspect in the absence of overhead power lines, it's really no more dangerous than the millions of people who routinely ride on the outside of trains just to get to and from work every day in India.

Still there are plenty who are easily impressed it seems?

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DancingOnRock 20 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> He seems to be both fraudulently exaggerating his own qualifications and experience, whilst at the same time misleading gullible people into believing that what he's doing is somehow extreme and 'out there' when really it's mostly beginner level scrambling.  Again feels like fraud!

Why is it fraud? If they’re beginners and he’s advertising an extreme experience, and for them it will be an extreme experience, then that’s both parties satisfied. That’s what I’m not getting. It’s almost like scrambling is some kind of elite club that only members of UKC who have a SPA are allowed to indulge and comment on.

> Still there are plenty who are easily impressed it seems?

The whole world is easily impressed, you just need to work out what impresses each individual. 

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DancingOnRock 20 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

I had a friend who had been working up to and training very hard to ‘climb’ Snowdon. Thousands of people climb it every year. For someone who never leaves the city it’s an extreme adventure. 

For you or I who can run up and down it before breakfast it’s just another big hill. 

Is an ML who takes a party up Snowdon also being fraudulent? After all it’s got a massive path up it that people do in T-shirt’s and sandals. 

Post edited at 13:51
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Jamie Wakeham 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Why is it fraud?

Because he is claiming to be qualified and (presumably) insured. He is neither. 

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La benya 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Are you being intentionally dumb?

The fraud isn’t that he’s claiming the things he does is extreme. The fraud is he’s claiming he’s capable and accredited to be guiding people up them when he’s not. 

Its like me claiming to be an lawyer and advising on a case when I’ve only passed the basic qualification which is enough for me to work in an admin role. I MIGHT know enough to fool people that don’t know better, and I might even get it right sometimes, but I still shouldn’t be doing it and the Law association (or whatever) would f*ck my shit up if they found out. 

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broon 20 Jul 2019
In reply to fmck:

Best comment I've read on the forum for a long time.

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DancingOnRock 20 Jul 2019
L energico 20 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

This is in reply to everyone, its not a gripe, I'm not a Troll, whatever that is and I'm not trying to be smart. However deranged and fraudulent you might all feel that this chap is, there is no HSE/HMRC/NGB/Police/Government legislation that can stop him from 'guiding' anyone on anything. If he has sufficient and appropriate experience and has insurance to cover any claims he's in the clear. Perhaps he's having you (us) all on, you've all spent quite a lot of time reading the posts and replies and looking at Youtube vids about him and he probably loves the attention. To me, he's a bit of a Bear Grylls, dangerous.

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teh_mark 20 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Why does he insist on calling himself a mountain guide?

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L energico 20 Jul 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

I guess he can call himself anything he likes, it depends on his own perception of what a guide is, or can be in his eyes.

Sorry to but in there the_mark. 

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ScottTalbot 20 Jul 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

Is there a difference between a mountain leader and a mountain guide? Or is it just tomayto tomahto? 

I'm not being a d1ck (Not intentionally anyway), just curious about the distinction..

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The New NickB 20 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Nothing legally stopping him calling himself a Mountain Guide, however it does suggest that he meets the IFMGA requirements of a BMG. He doesn’t, he (taking his word) holds an ML(S). The former being the pinnacle of the profession, the latter an entry level qualification.

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jezb1 20 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Mountain Leader training pre reqs: You must have recorded a minimum of 20 Quality Mountain Days (Mountain walking)

Mountain Guide pre training registration: 
At least 50 multi-pitch climbs led at El 5b or above in a wide variety of areas in the UK. Technical leads at E3 5c are recommended as this ensures that the applicant is consistent at E1 5b.
A comprehensive list of at least 50 snow and ice climbs of Grade III and above, of which 20 must be at Grade V or above. Over 70% (thirty five) of these should be in the Scottish mountains in a variety of areas. Non-UK experience may also be taken into consideration e.g. ice grade 4 in France or Canada, but the majority of experience logged must be UK/Scottish.
A general mountaineering history including hill walking in the UK and Ireland, mountaineering and camping experience

Twenty ascents of major summits, ten of which must be TD or harder.
A variety of experience including rock, snow/ice and mixed (mentioning any winter ascents)
As a guideline, experience in the European Alps should include a minimum of twenty routes, at least ten of which should be Alpine TD standard or above. Of these ten routes five should be at least 800 metres in length and be mixed routes of a serious and committing nature (i.e. classic North faces or similar).

Provide details of skiing ability on and off-piste including a minimum of thirty listed days of ski-mountaineering experience in glaciated Alpine terrain. Fifteen days or more of the thirty listed days must be linked days consisting of at least three consecutive nights in huts on recognised tours. Ski touring and skiing expeditions outside of Europe will be considered but the majority of ski-touring experience must be in the European Alps. Applicants are expected to ski all pisted runs with good style and demonstrate good balance, posture and control whilst skiing linked-parallel turns of varying radius. Applicants should cope well in all off-piste conditions showing the ability to ski safely, effectively and in control.

Post edited at 19:58
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Tom V 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I think he's done himself some good with the video.

Admits to the most obvious piece of  misbehaviour, explains a few other things regarding his assessment of his client's competence, comes across as a fairly reasonable bloke, seems to understand about internet forum feeding frenzies and takes it in his stride.

I actually think that if he didn't go by "Brave Dave" he would have a smoother ride.

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kaiser 20 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> He has replied. 

It was a better reply than I was expecting... He directly addresses the original point I was making.

Having started this, I'll leave it here.  Let's move on as Mr Pink would say.

I'm glad I linked the video on here

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fmck 21 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Brave Dave vs UKC ranting mob. 

Guess he won!

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Tobes 21 Jul 2019
In reply to fmck:

He’s still confusing the terminology a little. At different points refers to himself as ‘a guide’, ‘guiding’ and a ‘mountain leader’. Now we can be a mountain leading who is guiding someone but to be a mountain leader who refers to themselves as ‘a guide’ is still a little misleading imo.

Also when referring to the YouTube comments and the UKC comments these receive a general joint response. This is ambiguous, you’d have to have followed each thread to know when he is referring to which.

Totally appalling that he received death threats - (YouTube) but that is the nature of open source social media (unless you have comments disabled/though I guess there is still private messaging?) but not sure if it was made clear those threats were made on YouTube rather than the ‘climbing forum’. To the casual observer this may not be clear.

Lastly to describe the interest from third parties as ‘descending vultures’  is a little unflattering. A freelance outdoor instructors fb page has been a little less impressed by the respond video it seems. 

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ScottTalbot 21 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

Same thing then? 😂

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! I really had no idea how many different qualifications are out there!?

This has been an interesting and eye opening thread all round.

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teh_mark 21 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

Most sensible people would assume that someone calling themselves a mountain guide is an IFMGA guide (or similarly accredited) - the pinnacle of the profession as mentioned above, and covers everything up to guiding in the high mountains and on glaciated terrain, on technical routes and to a high standard, worldwide.

In comparison, the summer ML is a UK-only entry-level qualification which shows people are competent to lead people on walks in the hills in summer.

There's no law to say he can't call himself a mountain guide, but it's disingenuous in the extreme. It's like having a driving licence and selling yourself as a commercial pilot.

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asteclaru 21 Jul 2019
In reply to Tobes:

Death threats? I haven't seen any death threats in the Youtube comments (but then again, I haven't seen them up to the point he'd pulled the video)

Of course, he could be playing on our heart strings and making it up...

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Tobes 21 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

He refers to one repeated message where the responder said ‘they would kill him if they saw him in the mountains’ - it’s in the reply/response video though I never saw the (original) comment myself 

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mysterion 21 Jul 2019
richprideaux 21 Jul 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> He refers to one repeated message where the responder said ‘they would kill him if they saw him in the mountains’ - it’s in the reply/response video though I never saw the (original) comment myself 

It's not in the screenshots I have (future article notes)

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Tobes 21 Jul 2019
In reply to richprideaux:

Perhaps they were pm’s?

Anyways he says it in his reply, whether or not it (the threats) actually happened or not, I’m not going to get into on here. 

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Northern Star 21 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Hmmm a response, but apart from the rock throwing/helmet apology he's completely failed to address the fact that his remit as ML does not allow him to lead/guide (or whatever you want to call it), paying customers up that kind of terrain.  And Bryant's Gully is high grade 2, low grade 3 depending on which guidebook you read so not exactly only a little bit over his remit - it's quite a lot over.

I feel sorry that some people have have resorted to name calling or whatever but I do feel like Dave, through his sometimes immature, deliberately obtuse and often condescending replies to the genuine concerns shown has kind of bought this on himself.  I really think he needs to listen more and talk less.

I also doubt very much (although I stand to be corrected) whether his insurance would cover this, leaving his clients and himself in a very shaky position should an accident happen.  Again he didn't clarify or acknowledge this in the video either.

Sadly it sounds to me like he's just made up a video to fob of a few of his critics so that he can justify repeating the same with clients in the future.  I really hope that's not the case.

Post edited at 22:23
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static266 21 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

His justification of it being a short scramble, escapable and not being grade 2 overall because it only has short sections of grade 2 is all rubbish. 

I’ve done the route and it’s over 500m long, in fact one of the longest routes of its kind in north wales. It’s not particularly escapable without resorting to exposed steep heather slopes and remember that this entire side of the valley terminates in very steep crags below (Carreg Wastad, Craig Ddu, Clogwyn y Grochan etc) and this route is one of the few weaknesses to reach the upper mountainside. 

His justification of the grade, apparently not even knowing the name of the route or having a guidebook tells me that he isn’t a seasoned mountain scrambler. As an ML myself I would have a confidence rope in my bag leading any client on grade 1 terrain just in case, as many have said this is the upper limit of the qualification. 

He is entertaining but clueless, that could be part of his act though?

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Tom V 21 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> This has been an interesting and eye opening thread all round.

Couldn't agree more. Never heard of Bryant's Gully but now am quite determined to give it a look.

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FactorXXX 21 Jul 2019
In reply to Tom V:

> Couldn't agree more. Never heard of Bryant's Gully but now am quite determined to give it a look.

If you do, make sure you look out for falling rocks that seem to appear from nowhere...

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Joak 22 Jul 2019
In reply to Tom V:

UKC Hilltalk thread, July 2022....Park early if you want some solitude on this popular, polished classic Welsh scramble. Details can be found in Cicerones Brave Daves (OBE)  classic scrambles, Vol 2.    

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DancingOnRock 22 Jul 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

“Most sensible people”?

Nonsense. Most people in the UK think climbing Mount Snowdon is an extreme mountain climb.

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Tobes 22 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Fairly predictable comments on YouTube to the ‘response’ video.

‘Haters gunna hate’ ‘keep doing what you do’ ‘your (sic) awesome’ etc....

Along with a few very well written ‘proper’ responses still advising that he’s working out of scope/remit so it’s clearly made no difference in how he is perceived.

His followers (sounds like a cult)  appear unfazed, those that know better are still concerned.  

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timparkin 22 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

He does say he's only going to be leading grade 1 scrambles in future at the end of that video. It's slightly annoying that he addresses the extremists more than the qualified but that he's taken on board a lot of the criticism makes him more responsible than many idiots abroad... 

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teh_mark 22 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

None of whom I'd describe as sensible people in this context.

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big 22 Jul 2019
In reply to Tom V:

> Couldn't agree more. Never heard of Bryant's Gully but now am quite determined to give it a look.

Don't do Cauldron Gully by mistake, like I did!

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The New NickB 22 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> “Most sensible people”?

> Nonsense. Most people in the UK think climbing Mount Snowdon is an extreme mountain climb.

No they don’t. Most think it is a train ride where you can walk up if you want, but what’s the point.

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gezebo 22 Jul 2019

I'm not a regular contributor to UKC but have a browse regularly..

Anyway I was thinking about this subject and wondered if part of the problem was the sheer number of people who hold an ML and the number of providers diluting the award? I remember when I did mine nearly 20 years ago now and I couldn't possibly imagine someone like BraveDave getting through the award with such limited experience. When I did mine I had an enforced 2 year consolidation period due to my age- 18 at training. It obvious from his Youtube videos that his breadth of knowledge is very limited, yes he may have the required competencies which were tested at assessment but I wonder how well his logbook would stand up to questioning? I remember I was quizzed over mine at the time to make sure mine was accurate and I was also told to go and experience other areas before assessment even though I had gained over the minimum (walks plus the 3(?) different areas).

Also after having a look at his FB profile does anyone think that the girl in the first video which is now deleted looks very similar to the one on his profile pick? Wouldn't surprise me given his Mr Bulls@#t approach to some things.

Just a few Monday morning thoughts!      

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DubyaJamesDubya 22 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> “Most sensible people”?

> Nonsense. Most people in the UK think climbing Mount Snowdon is an extreme mountain climb.

Must explain why so many of them do it it clothes and footwear more suited to the high street. Even my most non-climber friends view Snowdon as a day-out walking (a challenging one) rather than an 'extreme mountain climb'

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Northern Star 22 Jul 2019
In reply to gezebo:

I wondered that, in which case not a client at all?  She's on his FB navigation video too!  If that's the case then some real smoke and mirrors stuff going on here!  Potentially a spiders web of lies and half truths?  Maybe seeking publicity through controversy perhaps?

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DancingOnRock 22 Jul 2019
In reply to teh_mark:

Perhaps you mean ‘experienced climbers’ rather than ‘sensible people’?

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DancingOnRock 22 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

My god. Get over yourself. How many adverts have you seen on the TV that contain real people in real scenarios? 

The video shows him leading an experienced scrambler up parts of a gully. That’s pretty accurate as far as I can see. Promotional videos are all over the internet. Take them at face value. 

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Sir Chasm 22 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> My god. Get over yourself. How many adverts have you seen on the TV that contain real people in real scenarios? 

> The video shows him leading an experienced scrambler up parts of a gully. That’s pretty accurate as far as I can see. Promotional videos are all over the internet. Take them at face value. 

My god, if you really take promotional videos at face value I have a bridge to sell you.

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DancingOnRock 22 Jul 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Quite.

No one does, do they?

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Sir Chasm 22 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Ah, the Edinburgh defence.

It doesn't mean you can put any old crap in adverts.

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PaulJepson 22 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

What's a grade 4 scramble? I thought in summer grades max out at 3 and then you're into Dif territory?

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derryclimbs 22 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I can't believe how many screens he's got at Brave Dave HQ.

personally I thought his response was fairly well measured, apologetic where it needed to be, and a good insight for any beginners knowing what they might be getting in to - a tough day out, with an enormous amount of slightly annoying commentary (to me anyway) along the way. 

He's aiming for the tough-mudder, brutal events type clientele, so he needs to make it out to be more extreme than it is, and the response actually downplays that.

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In reply to kaiser:

Would this be an argument for the job of Mountain Guide to be added to the list of protected professions, given the seriousness of the job and the skill involved.

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DerwentDiluted 22 Jul 2019
In reply to JJ Krammerhead III:

>..... the list of protected professions, 

Does that mean I have to put on hold my plans for 'Unsuited Diluteds Titanium Adventures'  Hip replacements done for only £390, all fully insured, I have my First Aid at work and everything! 

Unsuited Diluted,  putting the 'tit' into Titanium.

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timjones 23 Jul 2019
In reply to JJ Krammerhead III:

I would be very uneasy about introducing that level of regulation into any leisure activity.

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GPN 23 Jul 2019
In reply to timjones:

> I would be very uneasy about introducing that level of regulation into any leisure activity.

It’s for this reason that there’s a general understanding that people who aren’t IFMGA mountain guides (e.g. Brave Dave), don’t refer to themselves as mountain guides. Brave Dave isn’t the first one to be a dick about it though...

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to GPN:

Who is the ‘general understanding’ with? Is it an unwritten rule made up by Mountain Guides, or is it a code. If it’s a code then anyone being assessed on an ML course should have that as part of their test - “What are the various qualifications and what do they mean and allow you to do?” The Summer ML just comes with what you can do, or at least I’m sure mine did when I did it about 20 years ago. (Summer in England and Wales)

I’ve just done a ‘first aid course’ and they pretty much impressed on us that it wasn’t a first aid qualification and we couldn’t call ourselves first Aiders.

Sounds like this isn’t Brave Dave’s issue. After all he is guiding people in the mountains and his ML allows him to do this but people don’t want him to be allowed to call himself a Mountain Guide. That looks like nonsense to me and I understand the technical differences, how anyone else is supposed to automatically know that is beyond me. 

Post edited at 10:12
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Deadeye 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Just out of interest, do you know Dave?

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FactorXXX 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Sounds like this isn’t Brave Dave’s issue. After all he is guiding people in the mountains and his ML allows him to do this but people don’t want him to be allowed to call himself a Mountain Guide. That looks like nonsense to me and I understand the technical differences, how anyone else is supposed to automatically know that is beyond me. 

He knows exactly what he's doing when he refers to himself as a Mountain Guide and that is to big himself up to his gullible 'fan club' that he has been bullshitting for the last few years or so.
He was also reminded a fair few times on the original YouTube posting that he wasn't a Mountain Guide and that he was being at best disingenuous in referring to himself as one. 

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Northern Star 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Sounds like this isn’t Brave Dave’s issue. After all he is guiding people in the mountains and his ML allows him to do this but people don’t want him to be allowed to call himself a Mountain Guide. That looks like nonsense to me and I understand the technical differences, how anyone else is supposed to automatically know that is beyond me. 

Why don't you take a step back for a second and answer these questions? :

How would you feel as an accredited mountain guide (having trained and worked hard for many years to achieve this title) to have a bullshitter and 'short cut' corner-cutter like Brave Dave come along and call themselves a guide, possibly taking away some of your regular scrambling work in the process, possibly with the risk of dragging the whole guiding profession through the mud if an incident occurred?

How would you feel as a client to find out that having booked Brave Dave at premium Guide rates, it turns out he was operating outside his remit, leading on terrain he's not been trained for, not employing best practice (as a Guide would) to keep you as safe as possible, and that he or you are not adequately insured for the activities you are undertaking?

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ScottTalbot 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I have to agree with this, as I didn't even know there was a distinction, before reading this thread.

I've been walking/climbing in the mountains for 20 years on and off, but never really paid any attention to the qualifications (apart from briefly flirting with the idea of doing the Summer ML). I'm finally doing the training this year, but I'm sure that's more about me regretting not doing it in the past, than working to attain the higher guiding qualifications (there's only so much time left.. :D).

Whilst I think Dave is misguided, I don't believe he's maliciously lying about his qualification.

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Frank R. 23 Jul 2019

EDIT: I stand corrected - he did a ML with the MTA and can be found in the public list - just not under the surname given as his on his website

As to calling his creds whatever he wants - I suppose you would want to know if your electrician or gas technician rebuilding your house has the mandatory legislated qualifications, and would be rightly pi**ed off if he didn't (or was a canalisation plumber who did your gas installation, "because it's all just plumbing and pipes after all, right?").

For all I care otherwise, he could call himself an International Mountain / Accredited Super Scrambler (tm) and charge exorbitant prices for it (hey, perhaps I should trademark that!)

Post edited at 12:17
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Frank R. 23 Jul 2019

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I stand corrected and do apologise! I did search only for the name "Bravid" that he gives on his adventure website, could not find the real one there. Although, for the sake of not "sh*t-naming" anybody on the public internet and benefit of doubt, you might perhaps want to edit the name out. Or perhaps not.

Post edited at 12:18
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Harry Jarvis 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Frank R.:

He was named further up the thread. Given his confidence in his abilities and his standing, I don't see why his name should not be public knowledge. 

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘how I would feel’, at the moment that’s all it is. A few accredited guides having their noses put out of joint. Membership of the association isn’t even mandatory. 

Its illegal to fit gas or certify electrics if you are not certified. If the Mountain Industry is serious about this and not just worried about having their jobs undermined or noses misaligned then they should start by making membership of the association mandatory in order for the award to be current. At least then everyone can start advertising they’re a member and the association can warn people about unqualified guides at hotels, campsites and car parks. And the public can look up the guide’s qualifications.

Until then stop bellyaching. 

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Except that some randomers have sent him death threats. Probably some bored 14 year olds but nevertheless. 

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Harry Jarvis 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Except that some randomers have sent him death threats. Probably some bored 14 year olds but nevertheless. 

Death threats are utterly inexcusable. Anyone stooping to those depths should be utterly ashamed and should have a damned good look at themselves. 

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Frank R. 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I see, missed that. It's a rather long thread already

My concern was only with people changing few years from now and the mentioned randoms (such threads do have a way of snowballing out of proportion on the internet) - although probably everything here might be just advertisement for this guy anyway

Still, I know a few people with full UIMLA qualifications, and they would not ever dare calling themselves "mountain guides", always "mountain leaders". In all their communications and social media. Dishonesty not only could and would hurt their work, but would not really fit within the mountain and climbing culture...

Post edited at 12:49
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Northern Star 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

So failing to completely see anyone else's point of view then?  Stop avoiding the question and dismissing the genuine concerns of others - that's what Brave Dave does!

I'll ask you again, if you booked say one of your nearest and dearest onto a scrambling course with this guy (a guide) and then found out he wasn't qualified, adequately trained or insured, and acting in a manner that's completely blase about his clients safety, would you not be even in the slightest bit concerned?

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Duncan Bourne 23 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

what did he do? Video removed

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deepsoup 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

The video was of him 'guiding' a young woman up a somewhat sketchy grade 2(ish) scramble.  He's not really doing that though, so much as just climbing a few metres ahead of her whilst filming with a gopro or similar (hand held, mostly) and occasionally giving her some verbal instructions.

On the video (and on his website) it's strongly implied that this is a client that he's leading professionally - they're well outside the remit of his summer ML qualification, and as the (remarkably patient, friendly and polite) comments on the video from some highly qualified people pointed out he's also well outside anything a professional guide/leader/whatever would consider to be good practice.

There's a fair bit of loose rock around, and neither of them are wearing helmets. 

"What happens at 1:53" is that he comes across a loose spike of rock a bit smaller than a housebrick, waggles it about and works it free then just casually chucks it down into the gully out of sight below.

Post edited at 13:29
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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

And I’ll say again, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

How would you feel if someone passed the wiring on your house instead of condemning it?

The answer is it doesn’t matter how you feel. The point is it’s illegal. You could feel fine about it, great you can sell your house without rewiring it.

The same is not true with mountain guiding. Paid for a good day out. Did a grade one scramble. No one died. The guy leading it had some ‘qualification’ that’s not even legally required for leading in the mountains BUT had the temerity to call himself a Mountain Guide! Which also is not even a legally recognised essential requirement.

Seriously. It’s not about feelings it’s about the law. And there is no law that says you can’t call yourself whatever you want. 

Instead of complaining to Brave Dave, or whining to me and UKC in general about the end of civilisation, complain to the BMC, get the Mountain Leader Association involved. 

Or just continue being some random armchair internet warrior. Really it’s that simple. 

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Deadeye 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Just out of (continuing) interest, do you know Dave?

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Jamie Wakeham 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> How would you feel if someone passed the wiring on your house instead of condemning it?

> The answer is it doesn’t matter how you feel. The point is it’s illegal. You could feel fine about it, great you can sell your house without rewiring it.

> The same is not true with mountain guiding.

You're getting the analogy wrong.  The correct question here is - how would you feel if the guy you booked to rewire your house told you he was a fully qualified and insured electrician, and then you found out that he wasn't qualified, wasn't insured, and bodged a few bits that didn't really understand?

The biggest problem with this idiot isn't that he's passing himself off as a guide - it's that he's telling his clients he is qualified and insured when he is neither.

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I’d take him to court. 

Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. 

Post edited at 14:01
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deepsoup 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Which also is not even a legally recognised essential requirement.

Indeed.  But what *is* a legal requirement is that he exercises a reasonable duty of care towards his client(s).  It's not essential to hold any specific qualification to do that but it is essential to have the knowledge and experience to do it, and if anything goes wrong anyone who does not hold the formal qualification had better have some way of demonstrating an equivalent level of competence.

Nobody gets hurt in the video that's now been removed but it's not hard to imagine how easily the day could have gone differently, and with his client or some third party killed or injured it's also not hard to imagine how he might have found himself legally in deep shit.  Some of those giving him friendly advice in the youtube comments would be quite likely to be called as expert witnesses for the prosecution.

> Or just continue being some random armchair internet warrior.

Hm.  Interesting turn of phrase you've chosen there.  Seems familiar from somewhere.

Edit to add (from a later post):

> Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. 

Not what he does in the (now pulled) video that originally inspired this thread.  Not even close.

Post edited at 14:13
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FactorXXX 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Except that some randomers have sent him death threats. 

Allegedly... 

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deepsoup 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> The biggest problem with this idiot isn't that he's passing himself off as a guide - it's that he's telling his clients he is qualified and insured when he is neither.

In fairness whether he's done this in the past or not we really don't know that he's doing that now.

There's a fair bit of hype on his website, and I wouldn't buy a mail-order pair of socks via a website with no contact details (no address, landline phone, not even a plausible real name) let alone arrange to pay top dollar in advance for a 'guide' to keep me safe in terrain where I'm out of my depth.  But is there anything on there to say that he is taking clients beyond the remit of a summer ML?

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jezb1 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. 

He isn’t qualified to do the type of route in question.

He may have the correct insurance. If he’s bought the MTA organised policy, it wouldn’t cover him.

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

Indeed, the phrase was deliberately lifted from his apology video and aptly describes a lot of the UKC regular posters. 

If you sign off an electrical installation without the relevant qualification you have broken the law. You don’t need to have an accident. 

If you take a client up a mountain without the ML qualification or even having described yourself as a Mountain Guide, you have not broken any laws. 

Post edited at 15:08
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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

> He isn’t qualified to do the type of route in question.

> He may have the correct insurance. If he’s bought the MTA organised policy, it wouldn’t cover him.

There is no ‘qualification’!

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Jamie Wakeham 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Qualified?  Not for what he did in that video.  And it's really not acceptable for someone with an ML qualification to essentially say 'oops - was that not in remit?' as he has.  If he wasn't paying attention to that part of his training, I wonder what else he missed.

He claims he'll stick to grade 1 from now on - I'm not sure if I believe that.  Given that he only got his ML a few months ago, yet refers to 'guided adventures I lead last year' in January, he's clearly not too fussed about sticking to the rules.

Insured?  As Jez says, not if he has the standard MTA insurance.  I guess it is just possible that he has insurance to act beyond his remit... but that's extremely expensive and given his attitude towards insurance I very much doubt it!

So, I concede - he might be acting within remit now.  He certainly wasn't.  And I'd wager a lot (perhaps a free day out with Brave Dave?) that if you emailed him in a month and asked him to 'guide' you up a grade 2 he'd say yes.

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Tobes 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I take it it’s you in the videos then (the ‘client’)?

You’ve down graded the scramble to a 1 in a previous response. Dave himself admits it’s a 2 (sections of 2 blah blah still a grade 2) 

Overall if anyone’s that inclined the HSE can investigate on a tip off (this is before any incident has occurred). 

I’m sure no one wants to go down that path but it is an option nonetheless. 

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jezb1 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> There is no ‘qualification’!

Just because it’s not required by law doesn’t mean there is no qualification...

There is a qualification framework. Whether someone decides to be involved in it is up to them.

Ps. You previously said “Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. “

Post edited at 15:56
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Duncan Bourne 23 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

Good grief.

Next time I get clouted on the head in the mountains I'll know who to blame

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

Quite. There are two types of qualification. 

Passing an A level in maths is a qualification. 

Passing a driving test is a qualification.

One is required for you to legally carry out a task. It’s not illegal for you to carry out differential calculus if you don’t have an A level in maths. 

There is a qualification to be an ML but you don’t need an ML to lead people in the mountains and you don’t need a qualification to call yourself a Mountain Guide. 

That’s all there is to it.

As I say, it’s all very well the gnashing and wailing of teeth and the ‘won’t someone think of the children’ attitude, but unless BMC and MLA are prepared to try and get a law passed and enforce bad guiding there’s not a lot anyone can do. 

As I say, it would be simple enough to run a few adverts and putting up a few posters in tourist hotspots warning people to use official leaders registered with the association. 

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Alex Riley 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

The issue is that he isn't saying that, he's justifying his actions and proving his experience by way of his ML, which in this case is not appropriate as the terrain is well out of the scope of an ML

If he was just claiming to be experienced, he would still get criticised because he is clearly not displaying safe practice, let alone good practice.

Post edited at 16:53
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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Alex Riley:

Indeed. But who is going to stop him and many others, some of whom may not even have ML certificate?

Lots of people complaining, no one proposing any solutions. 

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Jamie Wakeham 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

He has taken money from paying clients who believed they were getting someone qualified and insured for the routes they were doing.  He was, clearly and incontrovertibly, not.  I'd love to see jcm's take on this, but that looks remarkably like obtaining money by deception to me.

If he was cheerfully telling his clients he wasn't qualified and that his insurance was therefore invalid, and they were still happy to pay him, then no problem.  But I doubt that.

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La benya 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I would have though peer review and public comment by those that know better on a well known video sharing platform would do the trick...

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GridNorth 23 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

People seem to be under the misconception that there is a requirement to have a certificate in order to instruct/guide over 18's.  To the best of my knowledge there is not so talk of being out of remit is somewhat academic.  "Qualification"  means more than this and rightly so. With regard to insurance, some years ago I looked into this and the difference in premium between a fully qualified international guide and someone without was only £30/year. I don't know how things stand today but I would have thought insurance was more important than having a certificate. Whilst I would not want to dismiss the certification route it is no guarantee of proficiency.  I have seen "certified" instructors teaching dodgy practices. and I know many of my "uncertified" peers would make good, safe instructors.

Al

Post edited at 17:14
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Tobes 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

In the professional association of diving instructors (PADI) if you break standards you either get suspended or expelled from the association. Your name, association number and centre you were working at are published in the quarterly magazine and available online also.

That goes some way to stop expelled members gaining work whilst attempting to ‘represent’ the association. 

Something like that work here (UK)? 

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DancingOnRock 23 Jul 2019
In reply to La benya:

For Brave Dave...

What’s your plan for all the others leading the public to almost certain death in Snowdonia?

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jezb1 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

So there is a qualification? I don’t really understand what you’re saying to be honest.

There is a qualification framework. That’s a fact.

BD has engaged in that framework, so must value it.

BD has operated beyond the scope of the ML.

BD has broken no laws.

Nobody died.

Enjoy the rest of the thread anyway. I’m off out.

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The New NickB 23 Jul 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

> People seem to be under the misconception that there is a requirement to have a certificate in order to instruct/guide over 18's.

People don’t seem to be.

The issue to me is that “Brave Dave” appears to be suggesting to potential clients that he has qualifications that doesn’t have. Firstly by stating on his website that he was ML trained, before passing his ML assessment. Secondly, describing himself as a Mountain Guide, rather than a Mountain   Leader and thirdly by suggesting that he is qualified to “Guide” on the terrain shown in the video.

Unqualified, but competent is another matter. I have no problem with unqualified, but competent, honesty is really important here, a potential client needs to be able to make an informed decision.  

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Jamie Wakeham 23 Jul 2019
In reply to GridNorth:

> With regard to insurance, some years ago I looked into this and the difference in premium between a fully qualified international guide and someone without was only £30/year.

I asked Perkins Slade about insurance for working outside of remit a couple of years ago - the answer was very expensive (about six times the standard cost, IIRC).

Tobes: I'd not want to see climbing and mountaineering instruction godown the hyper-formalised route that PADI has.  That's why I feel it's important to call out people who are taking the p1ss.

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deepsoup 23 Jul 2019
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> If he was cheerfully telling his clients he wasn't qualified and that his insurance was therefore invalid, and they were still happy to pay him, then no problem.  But I doubt that.

If they're clients he's at work, and as such perhaps not 'no problem' because he would still have a duty of care towards the clients that he can't legally ignore and they can't simply waive.

Where there is no clearly defined regulation though (as there would be if he was servicing his client's gas boiler, for example), perhaps it remains unclear whether or not a person was breaking the law until *after* the worst happens, he gets charged and eventually the trial jury come back in with their verdict.

It strikes me that had the client in this video fallen, he would most likely have found himself charged with 'gross negligence manslaughter'.  I wouldn't like to guess whether he'd be convicted, though the most measured and authoritative comment I think I've ever seen posted under a youtube video seemed to me to be suggesting he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I tried to find an example of someone convicted under similar circumstances, couldn't find one.  (Anyone know of an example?)

I did find an acquittal - Peter Finlay, a scoutmaster, who was eventually cleared of the manslaughter of Jonathan Attwell - a 10 year old scout who was under his care when he fell to his death on Snowdon.

Here are a couple of links about that case:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/scoutmaster-cleared-of-boys-death-1970575
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/judgment-on-scout-death

All this law business aside though, Brave Dave seems like a decent sort at heart.  The aftermath of a serious accident is a difficult thing to live with at the best of times, you ask yourself again and again "Did I do everything I could have to prevent this?" "Was this my fault?" - how much harder would it be to live with if the answers come back "'To be honest Dave, nah not really' and 'yeah, kinda was.'"

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BHound 23 Jul 2019
In reply to PaulJepson:

I've never seen it written as 4, but some older guidebooks do have 1,2,3 and 3s (severe).

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deepsoup 23 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

> BD has broken no laws.

I don't know, but I think he may have done - Health and Safety at Work Act, section 3(1).

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jezb1 23 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> I don't know, but I think he may have done - Health and Safety at Work Act, section 3(1).

Yeah fair one, potentially, I’m no HSE expert, I kind of meant in terms of not having the right ticket

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Deadeye 23 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Just out of (continuing) interest, do you know Dave?

I've asked a couple of times.  You seem to be avoiding the question.

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jethro kiernan 23 Jul 2019
In reply to jezb1:

There is the concept of best practice in Safety and law, it does not have to be written in law that a particular qualification  has to be used, I work in industry as well as the outdoors and I have to be trained and qualified and experienced to carry out my task. The law doesn’t specify what qualifications I have to have. 

The fact that Dave is aware of the qualifications structure as he has entered it counts against him as he has been made aware of the limitations of his existing qualifications.

training can be CPD, QMD, formal training courses I'm kinda guessing brave Dave hasn’t been down this route.

He is also breaking the cardinal rule of any form of mentoring in life threatening situations diving, canoeing , skydiving climbing etc. you don’t guide at your limit. He has previously posted a video of him on Bryant’s gully where he claimed it was hard and he “wouldn’t want to do that again!!”

And the video in question was his second go with a client in tow, there are reasons why guides and instructors have to be comfortable at a much higher level than the one you would take some out professionally.

British HSE despite popular opinion is not that rigid or prescriptive but does allow you enough rope to hang yourselves and Dave has left himself a very long drop legally and his videos and comments could be brought up in court, as could this forum to be held up that he didn’t follow best industry practice.

Post edited at 21:28
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asteclaru 23 Jul 2019
In reply to FactorXXX:

Again, has anyone seen these alleged death threats? Dave says they were repeatedly made in the Youtube comments, but I'd followed the discussion on Youtube almost until the video got pulled and I'd seen no such thing.

Alleging that you've been threatened is very common in this type of response videos in order to gain the sympathy of your viewers. Of course, I could be wrong, but I do think that Dave's trying to pull a fast one with this.

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Tom V 23 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I'm no expert on death threats but I would have thought that people who issue them are a bit wary of doing it openly.

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ScottTalbot 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Tobes:

PADI is a bit of a joke. From what I can see, it's all just tick boxes and taking money. A friend of mine is a qualified dive master and is still not 100% comfortable taking his mask off underwater!? He can't even snorkel in rough water!

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Tobes 24 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> PADI is a bit of a joke. From what I can see, it's all just tick boxes and taking money. A friend of mine is a qualified dive master and is still not 100% comfortable taking his mask off underwater!? He can't even snorkel in rough water!

That’s a bit of an old argument - depends on quality of instruction and standards.

My use of PADI as a reference was specifically in regards to the suspension and expulsion of its professional members and the publishing of those details. 

I’m not suggesting MTA adopt the PADI system other than putting the specific point (above) for discussion.

As for the general view of PADI, sure there are some terrible centres, instructors, etc but depends where in the world you are. Where the beach front has dozens of centres the likelihood is it will be a fast track (read sloppy corner cutting) training. But that’s not always the case.

There’s little difference (in a positive way) between diving and diver training in the U.K. whether you’re learning with PADI or BSAC - reasons in general are that the UK tends to have residential diving centres ie 90% are local residents (rather than tourists). This kind of means if you offer poor standards and training people will not return - there aren’t a constant supply of tourists in most parts of the U.K. (learning to dive at least)

Additionally the conditions are more challenging - so whether you’re doing a PADI or BSAC (I know this wasn’t part of your original point but trying to put a bit of perspective on the general world view of PADI) course it’s all quite similar. 

As for your friend-either their instructor failed to notice this or did and didn’t care though your friend could have asked to be deferred/delayed accreditation until they feel more comfortable with that skill (though to get to that stage for DM training something is up if they ‘still’ don’t feel comfortable taking their mask off underwater) I wouldn’t necessarily put all the blame on the DM training/instructor 

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Jamie Wakeham 24 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> If they're clients he's at work, and as such perhaps not 'no problem' because he would still have a duty of care towards the clients that he can't legally ignore and they can't simply waive.

Yes - you're absolutely right.  I was only thinking about the insurance/qualification angle, but clearly there is also a duty of care leading to a requirement to be competent and safe.

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deepsoup 24 Jul 2019
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> could be brought up in court, as could this forum to be held up that he didn’t follow best industry practice.

You're joking right?  So hard to tell sometimes.  The "random armchair expert keyboard warriors" thing is much closer to the truth than that, on a good day.  (On a bad day we're more like a chimps' tea party.)  God help us all the day a real court calls on the court of UKC for expert testimony.

Don't get me wrong there's some really excellent stuff posted here, I've learned a lot reading ukc over the years.  But you do have to be prepared to pick out the best bits one sweetcorn kernel at a time, if you see what I mean.

This thread made me think of David Hooper - I'm sure he'd have had something wise, kind & thoughtful to contribute to a thread like this.  I just checked his profile, hard to believe he's been gone almost seven years already.  RIP

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asteclaru 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Tom V:

But he says that the threats were repeatedly made in the comments (which again, no one else seems to have seen). In fact, I don't think you can even send Private Messages on Youtube.

Also, he shows a screenshot of every comment he responds to, but nothing about these 'death threats'? Come on now...

Post edited at 09:02
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Northern Star 24 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> PADI is a bit of a joke. From what I can see, it's all just tick boxes and taking money. A friend of mine is a qualified dive master and is still not 100% comfortable taking his mask off underwater!? He can't even snorkel in rough water!

As a DM myself then that's not my experience.  I trained in Egypt with an excellent and well regarded dive centre.  Both training and standards were very high.  I can't speak for where your friend was signed off however.

In regards to DM though, much like Mountain Leader, DM is an entry level qualification to the dive profession. Among some other stuff it allows us to guide other qualified divers and to instruct beginners, but only under the supervision of a qualified Instructor.  As DM we cannot take beginners by ourselves, nor certify someone completing an Open Water course.

You sometimes hear about independent divers taking personal risks and pushing things too far.  We had the Blue Hole near us in Egypt which has accounted for over 100 deaths and counting. 

What you don't seem to get with diving (or I've never hear about it anyway) is professional Divemasters taking it upon themselves to teach clients way beyond their remit, e.g. taking beginners on a technical or deep dive for example.  I guess that's because most DM's work for established schools who'll have a reputation to uphold if they want to keep their PADI operators license. 

That said there are plenty of accidental minor transgressions that can occur if a DM is not quite on the ball - e.g. depth certification for a diver being temporarily exceeded etc.  Provided you adjust your dive to remain within your no-decompression limit then these should have no adverse consequences bar a paper certification limit being exceeded.  Nothing like the potential consequences in Brave Dave's video should his client have fallen.

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Tobes 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

Well put NS. 

Not to totally derail this thread but as a DM you can conduct a try dive/discover scuba independently can’t you? Even in non direct supervision (ie instructor is in ‘the area’ type thing) but not pool/shore side. 

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tlouth7 24 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

> Again, has anyone seen these alleged death threats?

> Maybe he should be told to throw himself off

> I'd need about 5 minutes with him and you'd be pushing him off, and saying he slipped

You and I know that these (and I hope any youtube comments) are in jest, but at the same time they are close enough that someone who feels under attack could justifiably construe (or deliberately misinterpret) them as threats.

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Northern Star 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Tobes:

> Well put NS. 

> Not to totally derail this thread but as a DM you can conduct a try dive/discover scuba independently can’t you? Even in non direct supervision (ie instructor is in ‘the area’ type thing) but not pool/shore side. 

Not sure - it's been a few years since I've worked as DM so would need to refer back to the PADI manuals.  So far as I was aware you can assist with those, but not run them independently.  Anyway getting slightly off topic so lets get back to ML stuff.

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Tom V 24 Jul 2019
In reply to tlouth7:

I 'd be very wary about posting anything on the internet making light of killing people whether it was pushing them off a cliff , hacking them to pieces with a machete or blowing them up with a pipe bomb.

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asteclaru 24 Jul 2019
In reply to tlouth7:

I'm trying hard to remember all the comments, but I cannot recall a single threatening one, not even in jest. The only comments referencing death were of the 'Dave's gonna get himself or someone else killed' sort. 

If things took a dive in the 3 hours between when I last read the thread and the video got pulled, and there was indeed some lunatic threatening to throw Dave off a cliff, then I retract everything I've said on the matter. But as it stands, and from the information available, he's making it up.

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jethro kiernan 24 Jul 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

I think you misunderstand me, I’m pretty sure that a court of law is not going to look too UKC for expert advice, however your social media activities can be held against you in a court and by investigators. 

For instance if a dozen guides/MRT/MIA’s post on social media that your actions are unsafe and you dismiss them, it is still there nothing is deleted on the internet.

Likewise posting a video of you struggling and getting lost on a route and then posting a video of you guiding the same route with a customer the next time isn’t going to go down well in a court.

if we found out that Brave Dave and Dancing on rock are one and the same then maybe this thread could end up in court 😏

😀😂

Post edited at 13:00
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tlouth7 24 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

I didn't read the youtube comments, but quoted two from here that could easily be misrepresented if one was on the defensive and looking to play the victim (for the record I am assuming he also received something more concrete).

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timjones 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Frank R.:

> EDIT: I stand corrected - he did a ML with the MTA and can be found in the public list - just not under the surname given as his on his website

> As to calling his creds whatever he wants - I suppose you would want to know if your electrician or gas technician rebuilding your house has the mandatory legislated qualifications, and would be rightly pi**ed off if he didn't (or was a canalisation plumber who did your gas installation, "because it's all just plumbing and pipes after all, right?").

> For all I care otherwise, he could call himself an International Mountain / Accredited Super Scrambler (tm) and charge exorbitant prices for it (hey, perhaps I should trademark that!)

Surely elecrictal and gas qualifications work because they don't rely on such loose terms as plumber, gasman, electrician or mountain guide to demonstrate their competence?
 

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timjones 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

> I'll ask you again, if you booked say one of your nearest and dearest onto a scrambling course with this guy (a guide) and then found out he wasn't qualified, adequately trained or insured, and acting in a manner that's completely blase about his clients safety, would you not be even in the slightest bit concerned?

I would give my own arse a good kicking for failing to use google to do some simple research.

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permanenttrauma 24 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

> the link doesn't work any more but I looked at some of the other stuff!!! FFS! I'd need about 5 minutes with him and you'd be pushing him off, and saying he slipped

Is this not a death threat?

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Sir Chasm 24 Jul 2019
In reply to permanenttrauma:

> Is this not a death threat?

No, it is not a death threat.

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permanenttrauma 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

What is it then? Are words not threatening as long as you put a smiley face at the end?

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Sir Chasm 24 Jul 2019
In reply to permanenttrauma:

> What is it then? Are words not threatening as long as you put a smiley face at the end?

I don't give a toss what it is. What it isn't is a death threat.

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permanenttrauma 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Threatening to push someone and say they slipped whilst out in the mountains isn't a death threat? Am I missing something? If you got a note through your door with that on it you wouldn't be worried? Is it OK to post that on an internet forum? It'd hardly surprising if that is the comment he is referring to.

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Sir Chasm 24 Jul 2019
In reply to permanenttrauma:

> Threatening to push someone and say they slipped whilst out in the mountains isn't a death threat? Am I missing something? If you got a note through your door with that on it you wouldn't be worried? Is it OK to post that on an internet forum? It'd hardly surprising if that is the comment he is referring to.

He hasn't threatened to do anything. Read it again, try paying attention to the words "I'd" and "you'd". 

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timparkin 24 Jul 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

It's an example of humour, black comedy. It's along the lines of saying "if my kids don't shut up soon I'll bloody throttle them". It's not a real threat of murdering your own children. 

Just like see somebody doing something really embarrassing you say "I'd kill myself if it was me". You wouldn't, it's an exaggeration done in dark humour.

If you take these things seriously you'll have a hard time in life.. 

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peppermill 24 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

It would be so much easier to try and take this guy seriously if he didn't introduce himself as 'Brave Dave'.

As someone of the same name it makes me cringe to the point of implosion. I rarely introduce myself as Dave as it sounds vaguely moronic....

Also, if you're going to do something that's not best practice (whatever your justification), why on earth would you plaster it all over YouTube? Kinda asking for a flaming.

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permanenttrauma 24 Jul 2019
In reply to timparkin:

I get that and to those of us on UKC it's nothing at all. Anyone who has been on here any amount of time will know what it's like.

I'm just trying to point out that for an 'outsider' like Dave a comment like that may be taken more literally, especially when the vast majority of replies on this site are critical of him it seems reasonable to assume he'd take it a bit more personally than say on youtube where he has many fans. 

Just because the language on here sounds more reasonable and it's meant to be tongue in cheek doesn't necessarily make it OK.

I'm trying to play devils advocate here, Brave Dave seems to have listened to his criticisms which is extremely rare on the internet, unheard of on here.

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Lusk 24 Jul 2019
In reply to timjones:

> Surely elecrictal and gas qualifications work because they don't rely on such loose terms as plumber, gasman, electrician to demonstrate their competence?

Hahahaha, you clearly have little experience of these trades!

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phillipi 25 Jul 2019
In reply to Northern Star:

Date on this was Jan 17, I read elsewhere that he passed his ML earlier this year.

I liked the comments about the ill-equipped tourists in denims and trainers. This guy doesn't begin to understand irony.

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teh_mark 25 Jul 2019
In reply to peppermill:

> As someone of the same name

You're called Bravid too? What are the chances of that!?

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DubyaJamesDubya 26 Jul 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

> Just out of (continuing) interest, do you know Dave?

> I've asked a couple of times.  You seem to be avoiding the question.

The question should be 'how much of a stake in his business have you got?'

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Deadeye 26 Jul 2019
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> The question should be 'how much of a stake in his business have you got?'

Definitely

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krikoman 27 Jul 2019
In reply to permanenttrauma:

> Is this not a death threat?

Sorry I've only just seen this and not replied earlier ha ha ha
Of course it's not a death threat FFS!!

I'd only meant I'd push him so he'd stub his little toe, enough so he would no longer be able to take people out and put them in danger.

Also, the smiley face, is a form of punctuation, which even the most technophobic sexagenarian, and older, would know the sentence was to be taken in jest.  Are you really suggesting there's be many people who would interpret my comment as wishing injury on DD?

If you, or anyone else for that matter confused my comment with a death threat, then they're either a non-English speaker, an idiot, or someone looking to take offence.

I'm sure Big Dangerous Dave can handle a bit of banter, he seems to be able to deal with all the rigours nature can throw at him.

I you think what I posted is worse than what he's doing then I suggest you reconsider your priorities.

Thanks for the people who tried to put this fella straight on my behalf. there's nowt so queer as folk!

Post edited at 23:12
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krikoman 27 Jul 2019
In reply to permanenttrauma:

> I'm just trying to point out that for an 'outsider' like Dave a comment like that may be taken more literally,

I don't think EVEN Brave Dave would think I would like to see him dead, or injured, even if it was only his little toe.  I think most normal thinking people would see it for what it is, a bit of hyperbole, and a bit of fun.

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Tom V 28 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

I don't think   recent comments made about chucking battery acid around were meant any differently from yours but probably were seen ultimately as being ill advised.

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mrgleb 28 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

Wow, I did this route yesterday. It was a bit too wet in places but very varied and enjoyable. Just glad brave dave was not around to lob rocks at me.

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krikoman 29 Jul 2019
In reply to Tom V:

> I don't think   recent comments made about chucking battery acid around were meant any differently from yours but probably were seen ultimately as being ill advised.


I think there's a big difference, but there you go. "Push him off" could mean all sorts of things, and the consequences could be many and varied, chucking acid really has only one outcome.

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Tom V 29 Jul 2019
In reply to krikoman:

That's the "Let him have it" defence.

But I didn't mean the technicalities of the act , more the spirit in which the comment was made

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asteclaru 30 Jul 2019
leon 1 30 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru: 'And as for learning how to scramble by watching YouTube sensations strut their stuff, BMC Training Officer Jon Garside has an answer to that. “If you wanted to learn to skydive, you wouldn’t watch Mission Impossible.”

The Winner !

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ScottTalbot 30 Jul 2019
In reply to leon 1:

> 'And as for learning how to scramble by watching YouTube sensations strut their stuff, BMC Training Officer Jon Garside has an answer to that. “If you wanted to learn to skydive, you wouldn’t watch Mission Impossible.”

> The Winner !

Point Break?

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ScottTalbot 30 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

> Mr Bravid has made TGO Magazine:

What's that old adage? No publicity is bad publicity.

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krikoman 30 Jul 2019
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DancingOnRock 30 Jul 2019
In reply to leon 1:

I wonder what the point is where you shouldn’t use YouTube as a reference?

Fixing a washing machine?

Bleeding the brakes on a family car? 

Both could get you killed...

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DubyaJamesDubya 30 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

It's not youtube though is it? 

...it's 'who on youtube' which is what the whole thread was about.

Post edited at 14:56
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DancingOnRock 30 Jul 2019
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

The quote wasn’t; “You need to be careful which YouTube Chanel to learn skydiving from.”

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asteclaru 30 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

No, the actual quote is '“If you wanted to learn to skydive, you wouldn’t watch Mission Impossible.”.

The way I read it, Mission Impossible is presenting a highly over-the-top, highly glamourised representation of sky-diving, just as Mr Bravid's videos are presenting a highly over-the-top and glamourised representation of scrambling. Neither of them should be taken as educational 'how to' videos.

But, of course, you already knew that, you just keep on obtusely defending him.

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DancingOnRock 30 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

Do you think people are learning to scramble from watching Brave Dave? 

I wonder what man did we do before Mountain Leaders were invented? Scary places those mountains.

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La benya 30 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Do you think people are learning to scramble from watching Brave Dave? 

Yes

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asteclaru 30 Jul 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Do I think people are watching his videos with the purpose of learning how to scramble? No.

Do I think people are potentially learning dangerous scrambling behaviour by watching his videos? Absolutely.

What is your point, after all? You've been rambling on for weeks now, without actually saying anything. I know you've been asked this on several occasions, but I haven't seen any concrete answer, so I'm going to ask you too: what is your connection to Brave Dave?

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The New NickB 30 Jul 2019
In reply to ScottTalbot:

> What's that old adage? No publicity is bad publicity.

I wonder what the reaction would be to a Ratnerism these days!

Post edited at 18:43
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kaiser 30 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

> Mr Bravid has made TGO Magazine:

I found the 'The fight for likes' paragraph of that blog thought provoking.  The commercial aspects of this are perhaps interesting for those working in the industry.

I've hired a few guides in my time and they are always interested in how I found them.   That's usually been through Google searches about routes and/or course dates that have led me to their websites. 

I wonder though if that's the modern day equivalent of the Yellow Pages, and 'social media' (lYouTube Instagram et al) is to Google searches what Google searches was to Yellow Pages...  (if you see what I mean)

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ScottTalbot 31 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

I think that's exactly how it is! 

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ScottTalbot 31 Jul 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

I imagine it would be the same now, as it was then.. But it's not Bravid saying that he doesn't know what he's doing.

His target audience will still book him, regardless of what a bunch of faceless old blokes on the interweb say... That's the sad truth of it.

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DubyaJamesDubya 31 Jul 2019
In reply to asteclaru:

> Do I think people are watching his videos with the purpose of learning how to scramble? No.

> Do I think people are potentially learning dangerous scrambling behaviour by watching his videos? Absolutely.

> What is your point, after all? You've been rambling on for weeks now, without actually saying anything. I know you've been asked this on several occasions, but I haven't seen any concrete answer, so I'm going to ask you too: what is your connection to Brave Dave?

...but just think how short this thread might have been, by comparison, if DoR had kept quiet!

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asteclaru 31 Jul 2019
In reply to kaiser:

> I've hired a few guides in my time and they are always interested in how I found them.   That's usually been through Google searches about routes and/or course dates that have led me to their websites. 

I've hired a few guides/climbing instructors too, and I usually find them the same way as yourself, but, once I found someone, I also check their Mountain Training profile to see what qualifications they hold, and their social media, to see what sort of person they are.

In Mr. Bravid's case, even if I knew nothing of his shenanigans, there are two red flags that would immediately put me off hiring him: that he's not giving his real name (what has he got to hide?), and that, without his real name, you can't find him on the Mountain Training website (it's all well and good to say that you're qualified, but I would still like to see some proof of that).

The thing is though, I can get around on the interwebs (and also know what to look for) and can do my own diligence, but a lot of people either can't or can't be bothered. Hopefully this thread will help more people do their own diligence when researching Mr. Bravid, although I doubt it, as it doesn't come up if you google only Brave Dave (you have to add UKC to your search term for it to come up)

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Dogwatch 31 Jul 2019
In reply to leon 1:

> 'And as for learning how to scramble by watching YouTube sensations strut their stuff, BMC Training Officer Jon Garside has an answer to that. “If you wanted to learn to skydive, you wouldn’t watch Mission Impossible.”

There are, in all seriousness, people who learn to paraglide, or try to, by watching YouTube videos.

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