UKC

Went multipitch climbing in North Wales on the weekend and after I had led the first pitch my partner was taking a while and a party came up behind her. The leader was friendly and offered her advice on how to get past the difficulty she was having but then proceeded to overtake her and then chose a belay stance above mine meaning that for us to then lead through she would then have to climb over him. As they were obviously a quicker party (having done the route in question before)and my partner felt like she was under pressure we elected to wait and let them go first.
At first I was a bit angry that these guys had decided to overtake us but it was a lovely day and a good large stance so we just chilled in the sun for a bit and then carried on.
Now, we started with another party of mates who we were now split from and as we had started together I assumed that we would meet on stances and discuss the route directions etc so decided (foolishly) not to carry my bulky guide book. This meant that we now had to play catch up with them just to find the route, now this wasn't too much trouble really as it was quite obvious. I kind of expected that our mates above would let these guys pass and that we'd hook up somewhere en route. We never did.
Once we had descended we met up with our mates and it turned out that they flatly refuse to let people pass on a multipitch route as they consider it dangerous and will not allow it, this is no slur on them as if that's the way they have always climbed then fair enough.
What I would like to know is if this is the general concensus on multipitches, I haven't done that many as there aint that many on grit boulders. The way I look at it is that if there is a safe place for a quicker party to pass and it will make the climbing more pleasurable and a member of the party more comfortable then why not? Were the guys climbing through just selfish, should we have just carried on regardless or was our course of action the sensible one considering the situation.
Thoughts please.

(really trying not to be just a boulderer)

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

Multae pictches are evil, stay away from dat shit chamone!!

;0)

In reply to Simon:
Well now me shoulder is on the mend and grit season is approaching I probably will
It's good to experience the full plethora that climbing has to offer dont cha think, chamone!
And I obviously need the practice, we could do something on the Burbage boulders in two pitches if you like).

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
There's a discussion here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=84485&v=1#1133455

In reply to Simon:

If the stances are big then overtaking I think is ok but over taking mid pitch, ie, a leader going past a 2nd is rude and potentially dangerous,

I've been at the top of a pitch sorting out my belay whilst a leader who wanted to start leading has been very patronisingly explaining to my mate that she should only remove our gear and not the gear she was going to place. My mate nodded dumbly and then when the other leader was about half way up speeded straight past her.

What annoys me was that there were plenty of parallel routes of near equal grades

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

If a following party is obviously faster than you then it is common courtesy to let them through. This is the case in the Alps. If they are keeping pace but not making noises about being held up then I see no reason to let them past. I have done both strategies in the alps and elsewhere.

What to do if you are catching a party and they will not let you past? A tale from the 1970's:

Two British climbers (Let's call them Ed and John) set off on the Bonatti route on the Grand Capucin. After quickly climbing the easy lower pitches they catch up with an Italian party who started the route a day earlier. They refuse to let Ed & John past. This causes some friction. Eventually, the Italians are in a hanging stance with their ropes swaying in the lead. Ed is leading up to the stance and is beneath a roof. He grabs their rope and ties it off to a peg under the roof. On reaching the stance he protests that he cannot see what their rope is catching on. So while the Italians have to mess around they are overtaken.

Bob

In reply to crikeyorikey:

Insist your second takes EVERYTHING out, that will stop the bad manners. If someone wants to leave gear in for you to collect it is their fault. The second party could have passed you on the next pitch if they were fast enough.

In reply to Iain Forrest:

Dear Iain

I was on holiday up north that week or I would have commented.

I have overtaken others many a time and I know it is out of order, however that is me.

I used to like overtaking "guides" or "instructors", just to explain to their clients what is bad behaviour is on the hills.

Norrie

In reply to Bob:

Didn't the Burgess Twins do something like that? Seem to remember reading about it in The Burgess Book of Lies.

In reply to Bob:
He grabs their rope and ties it off to a peg under the roof. On reaching the stance he protests that he cannot see what their rope is catching on. So while the Italians have to mess around they are overtaken.
Dear Bob

I have used that a few times, with my ignorant look, I got away with it.

Norrie

PS I never used a Glaswegian acsent, so Londoners got the blame.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
The way I see it, it's just a matter of being courteous; it's rude not to ask before overtaking, but it's equally rude to refuse to let a faster party through. I can't see any reason why it would be dangerous (if done correctly). The only exception might be a soloist asking to pass; I can understand someone objecting to this, although, in my experience, very few people do.

Mark

In reply to Duncan Disorderly: to be honest mate I think you are in error in some ways.

You did not have a guide book with you. your mates had it....so your party was underequiped and not self sufficient. Also you were depending on the higher team of your mates but didnt know how they would react to a situation.

In my opinion you have bad commmunication and were underequiped.

Sorry dont meen to be an ass just telling it as I see it

In reply to Anonymous:
I fully agree and won't make the mistake of not taking a guide again but that's not really the point I am trying to make, it was more about the etiquette and what the general concensus was. In my defence I did have a conversation with my mate in the other party and his reasoning for leading first was that he had the guide and that meant that we could follow where they went. Coming from a bouldering and single pitch background that seemed like a rational reason for me not to take my guide, I assumed he meant that I wouldn't need it. I guess that we failed to communicate adequately, but at the end of the day we got off safely and won't make that mistake again.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
at the end of the day we got off safely and won't make that mistake again.

and thats how you learn!

RE overtaking, its all about giva and take, no one has a god given right to be on any bit of rock at any given point in time, but if you're holding people up then its always good manners to offer to wait and let them past, however if the group behind you are a bunch of nobs...

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

>our mates and it turned out that they flatly refuse to let people pass on a multipitch route as they consider it dangerous and will not allow it, this is no slur on them as if that's the way they have always climbed then fair enough.

Curious view. Translated it reads 'my mates are knobs but then they've always been knobs so that's fair enough'.

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:
I don't agree, the point of this post was to see what the general concensus was. My mates have far more multipitch experience than I do and I wanted to see if theirs was the general rule.
If they felt that the party below had no right to overtake then that's their perrogative and it seems from the posts here that people do things differently, if that is the way they learnt to climb and how they believe it is safest then who am I (or you for that matter) to judge.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

Depends. On a shoogly hanging belay in a constricting groove, no. On a capacious ledge with room to spread out, be my guest.

Better still, get up early and climb in quiet places. Worked for me.

In reply to Not Foz:

No queues on Clean Sweep yesterday.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Dear Rid

Nobody RUSHing to do it then?

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

No. The Rush comes next week.......

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Dear Rid

I would rather see the Rush than do Clean Sweep again.

Norrie

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

You dark horse you (a bit like El Fidelo???)

Day we were on it it there was a party ahead, young fit types but suprisingly tentative. No worries; he weather was fair, the day long, the views expansive and the company good. The way climbing should be.......

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Didn't you enjoy it?

In reply to Not Foz:

Plenty of berries to munch en route at the moment.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Dear Rid

I am making no comment as it may offend Not.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

No need to be so coy, Norrie. It's only a lump of stone after all.

I only get offended when you insult people.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

C'mon. The corner's fantastic, first pitch is nice and open, direct line up the crag. The two easier pitches aren't too remarkable but they're OK.
And the view's good ..... for the Cairngorms.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:
> And the view's good ..... for the Cairngorms.

Dear Rid

That is my main problem, I am not enamoured with the Cairngorms or it's climbing. Good lines, yes, but, for me not as good as the west coast climbing.

Norrie

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

You would never get anywhere in the alps if you didn't overtake the fat munters.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Dear Norrie
Pish
fae the boy fae baurheid

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Funny that. If you'd been at the other end of Loch Avon in July 1989, you'd have seen a knackered 16 year old from Paisley with his jaw dropping, having had a bit of a 'conversion moment'.

Each to their own.

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Some of the climbing's certainly somehow odd. Takes a bit to get into it if you don't visit too frequently.
Often like Arran with better granite though.

In reply to Slugain Howff:

Dear Slugain

As Not says each to your own.

So are you telling me that I am wrong in how I feel about an area?

Or I am wrong in stating that the Sheterstone has great lines, some I have did, like The Needle and Steeple, yet I did not like the climbing?

Norrie

In reply to Not Foz:

Dear Not

I agree with that. Somehow others think I should not have a rational opinion of an area, I even like the grit.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I think it's hard to climb there without feeling clumsy or awkward. Perhaps that makes it less satisfying.

Too much chumping for chugs.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

Dear Rid

As they say - horses for courses.

Norrie

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
in my opinion most times overtaken by another party on a multipitch you end up waiting for them to leave the next belay ledge, which I think is rude, this is especially rude if it's the last pitch of the climb.

I am very reluctant to let poeple over take me unless I think they can do it without us then having to wait for them, and only if it means that it will not be too dangerous for us, if they fall off.

In reply to Rid Skwerr:

>I think it's hard to climb there without feeling clumsy or awkward

A lot of it is very coarse grained granite and very rounded so yes a bit thuggish etc. But pitch 1 & 3 of Clean Sweep are both relatively subtle and technically absorbing for the grade, i thougt?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I was seeing 2 lines when I did Steeple but that was because I had a migraine coming on - this diminished the experience of what is a very fine climb.

You are absolutely correct though - each to his own.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

I think it is courtesy to let the faster party through, especially if it is a long route and it looks as though the other party find the route easy.

I agree that it's bad if the group turn out to be only marginally faster and end up holding you up. I also think it's a different matter if it's only a few pitches or you are near the top.

Climbing fast on an easy route is one of the most exhilerating forms of climbing in my opinion, and getting stuck behind a slower party can ruin your entire day and might mean you can't do everything you had planned.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly: I believe it is good practice to let all faster parties overtake when it is mutually convenient.

I have had parties climbing on my heels, trying to overtake when they weren't any faster really, which is very annoying. I have used the age old trick of dropping large chunks of ice and snow on the them.

It has usually been abroad and sometimes the product of a language barrier.

Two Italian guys once nearly killed my climbing partner by unclipping our gear on the Aiguille du Midi. They nearly got an axe in the face.

I have found that the easier lines in the alps are covered in very slow people and not overtaking them is dangerous. Self preservation is the most important - keep as far away as possible from the punters, if that means them overtaking or you overtaking - do it!

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
Got to agree with Jcm,
Your mates sound a bit arrogant. Have they tried that method in places like Yosemite and Zion?

The Ent

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

The day I did Black Mamba, me and my partner were the first folk at the crag and had peace and quiet for the first couple of pitches. The next party to arrive, for reasons best known only to themselves, decide that they have to do the same route as us (bearing in mind that the Creag an Dubh-Loch is over half a mile wide and 1000 feet high).

Route finding on Black Mamba is not straightforward, particularly on the pitches below the terrace, so with us showing them the way, this second party catch us up. I'm belaying at this point, with my leader sussing out where the next pitch goes. The other leader asks if he can climb through and take a higher belay, and trying to be friendly, I tell him to go ahead. From the higher belay, the other party's last pitch to the terrace is shorter than ours and they get there first, and so are ahead of us as the route continues on the upper slabs.

On the second pitch above the terrace, they go the wrong way and spend over an hour sorting themselves out. I had set off up below them and ended up having to clip into my gear and sit on the rope as there was no more room for me at their belay. During this wait, the weather started to turn, and seeing no immediate prospect of them getting back on route quickly, I ended up climbing back to the terrace and we ended up traversing off onto Central Buttress, meaning that we never actually finished the route.

I was partly annoyed at the other climbers for stopping us finishing our route, but I was also annoyed at myself for letting them climb through in the first place. From a safety point of view, I shouldn't have let the leader take that higher belay above me while my leader was climbing, since anything knocked down from above onto me by that other party woudl have compromised both my safey and that of my leader, and there's no justification to let anyone do that.

In future, I won't let anyone climb through in that sort of situation again.

In reply to Bob:

Ed and John ey? Not Bob and ....

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Not I Adam - I've never climbed on the Grand Capucin, besides I'm not that old! You will have heard of Ed but possibly not John, though they were both involved in the first ascent of a modern classic in the Pass. (no more hints)

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Sort of the opposite of a well-known Coca-Cola Championship outfit, I take it?

jcm

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
Flatly refusing to let a faster party past is pretty selfish becuse you could then be putting them at risk from your errors. In most cases an overtaking party will be out of risk to you within a pitch or two. Common practise is to let a party past where it is safe. You have to judge what you feel is safe and tell them. In the Alps getting over taken and overtaking is common and something to get used to, as is sharing belays. If you what a route to yourself you either, a) get up very early, b) go very fast, c) a) and b) above if your in Cham, the Dollies or the like or d) go to quiet places and try something others ain't doing.

In reply to Anonymous:

Eh?? Totally lost me there John old chap.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

John Eastham? The opposite of West Ham.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

I,ve had two parties pass me on Froggatt Pinnacle. Chill out man.

Baz

In reply to Duncan Disorderly: Every time I start off following another group on a route I swear that I'm never going to do it again. I'm getting a bit more disciplined now and generally force myself to go and climb something else and avoid the complete faff of being stuck behind a slower group.

In the UK I can't think of any occasion where I would now get myself into the situation of needing to over take another group. There are very few places where I can think that I would have no alternative to following another group on their route - equally I wouldn't really expect any group to try to overtake me for the same reasons - they should have got up earlier or choosen another route.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

We arrived on Cloggy one morning at 7.45 and found parties on all the routes we had plans for. virtually every route on the E and W had people on them and queues on things like Vember and White Slab, both on our list. Even Slanting and Bloody had people waiting so we did Haemogoblin, before it fell down.
We did Vember afterwards when the others had left.

In reply to Anonymous:

Ah! Correctomundo, presumably the other name is easy? I was told the tale by someone who climbed with both of them in the alps on various occasions.

Bob

In reply to Duncan Disorderly: I'm usually quite happy letting a faster party overtake, as long as they're not likely to slow me down higher up. However I was winter climbing in the cairngorms once and a party overtook us, doing a different route but one which shared the same first pitch. as they had 60m ropes they belayed slightly higher than I did and in setting up their belay managed to get our ropes tangled up in theirs. as my friend who was leading hadn't done much winter climbing and wasn't particularly confident she decided to wait until both the leader and second had left before moving on - end result, I was sat on a belay spot for about 2 hours freezing my arse off. Definately made me think twice about letting people past!

In reply to Duncan Disorderly: Obviously as ever there are few black and white right and wrongs but some people's behaviour is downright dangerous.

We had to rap off and abandon a route in the Picos because an incredibly slow German party refused to let us through - this is the annoying rather than dangerous scenario.

Twice in Scottish winter we have been f*cked over dangerously by guides who should know better but appear to believe that the rules do not apply to them.
First "Scotland's most famous climber" overtook me without even asking on the big pitch of SC Gully as he led his client. This, for those who don't know, is steepish ice and I was trogging up happily enough with no runners as you do winter stylee knowing a fall might kill leader and belayer. SMFC had no way of knowing how comfortable I was or what effect another climber sweeping past might have on me and was therefore risking the lives of my party to quicken things up (by minutes - you don't hang around in these place) for him and his client. He then dumped a load of snow on my head as i was finishing the pitch.

Second, "Scotland's Most Famous Guide" on his home mountain. My brother leads up to Tower gap from pitches above Eastern traverse and belays. Who should appear out of Glover's but SMFG with two clients below. Up he goes to belay beyond the gap without so much as a by your leave and creating a massive web of ropes. He then takes well over an hour dragging utterly incompetent clients - who should be on grade II ground and had to be bodily pulled up the back of the gap - inch by painful inch up to join him. Meanwhile the other party is stuck and the weather blowing in. Incredibly selfish behaviour and again potentially dangerous.

Is it any wonder that so many parties behave so badly and without basic decency and good manners when the professionals set this sort of example? I know they have a job to do, responsibility for the safety of their clients etc, but it doesn't excuse putting other parties in danger.

As you can tell I was rather annoyed

cheers, Paul

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Complain to the guides association when things like that happen, and post their reply in full on here with names so we know the results.

Why did you not name the guide here if you knew his name, perhaps he would post then to explain himself.