UKC

Just drove back through the pass on the way home as always there is barely any places for parking. I appreciate that there is a lot of people who want to use those spaces from hillwalkers, climbers, tourists and everybody and their dog. However I can't help but think people who park by the cromlech boulders, jerrys or the grochan and then catch a bus up to pen y pass could simply have parked down in nant peris or Llanberis and got the bus up from there instead(the bus costs the same amount). A simple way in my mind of ensuring this happens is if the bus simply didn't pick up after nant peris until 11.00 on bank holidays/school holidays.
I appreciate people may not think this would do much to help, but I remember when I was doing a supervising session at pont y gromlech for my spa last summer. There was in the region of 30 or 40 people stood at the bus stop by the cromlech boulders at 9.30ish. Also in the last few days I have been bouldering at the cromlech boulders in the afternoon and evening and other than the clowns who park under the roadside face, I can't help but notice that every bus coming down from pen y pass has a good 10+ people getting off at the cromlech I presume perhaps wrongly that if they can't be asked walking down chances are they couldn't be asked walking up to pen y pass. Though it may not solve the problem it would reduce the stress on the parking places which are surely very important to most of us climbers?

What are people's thoughts to that suggestion or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Sorry for my lack of grammar, hopefully the quality of my argument will win through.

In reply to The third: I would be inclined to agree with you, although as everyone keeps telling me the area is for everyone. Some would also argue that the boulderers and climbers could also easily get the bus up from Nant Peris.

In reply to The third: This is an easy fix.
Any parking place that is within a given distance (lets say 1 mile as a trial period) of a crag should be reserved for climbers only.
To ensure that only climbers use them each space should have a warden that will check to make sure the person parking has a full rack and rope (or bouldering mat and a beanie if it is a bouldering area).
The spaces should also be free of charge and whilst climbing your car should receive a wash and wax.

In reply to The third:

I've just done the same it's mad and the Nant Peris car park wasn't even full! BMC Cymru/Wales did put your proposal to Green Key last year, they turned it down as being too difficult. The general opinion is the same as airborngrapfuits. I'm afraid we haven't tried the approach suggested by Dax H!

There is quite a bit on this in the latest BMC Cyrmu Newsletter (You should find it on the BMC website) and it will be discussed again at our next meeting 21st Sept 8.00 pm Pen Y Pass Cafe, your contribution would be welcome, we might even arrange a special bus!!

In reply to Mike Raine:
ah just read it! I would normally attend the yorkshire bmc area meeetings but If I haven't gone back to university by then I will try pop along. Out of curiosity, will we have to pay for parking at pen y pass to go to the meeting or do they stop collecting to park at a later time?(not trying to cause trouble here just curious honest!)

In reply to The third: There may or may not be a piece of small print on the parking meters at Pen Y Pass that says something along the lines of "No charge for cafe users!"

In reply to The third:

Sounds like a good idea to me. I thought the whole point of the bus was to reduce the parking problems in the pass in general rather than just Pen-Y-Pass itself.

A radical, and proberbly not approved of solution, would be to not allow parking anywhere in the pass until after 11? or is that just plain stupid?

In reply to Mark Reeves: Is this true?

In reply to Dan Lane:

Or just stop the bus service and let the tourists walk up Snowdon from Llanberis!!

In reply to The third: What about those who want to end their day there. PyP walk up the Glyders/Snowdon, drop down.

Up Crib Goch > Carnedd Ugain > Cyrn Las Ridge > Cromlech..nice wee circuit..

For me the main problem is the parking outside the Vic in Llanberis. That is now a real problem. A path down the pass must now be a necessity.

Gwynedd council/the NPA's parking charge scheme isn't working. It's quite clearly getting worse.

In reply to Dax H: What about scrambles...walks from that point...

Come on..if the bus is so good why not bus up the pass from Nant like the walkers.

Making an issue about 20 parking spots when the real issue is regarding the hundreds of car parking spaces, charges and bus schedules is rather silly.

As it is there aren't enough car park spaces in the lay bys for the numbers of climbers/boulderers in the pass anyway. I just cannot understand why those spots should be reserved for one group of users.

In reply to The third: if you want a parking space there its best to get there before the walkers etc get there (I generally get there the night before if I am climbing there). I don't mind that people park there as I will have gotten there before they did.
If getting there the night before isn't an option then why don't you take your own advice and get the bus from nant peris if the parking places have all been wasted on these walkers?

sorry for being sarcastic but I can't see that having Climber only parking at Cromlech (or anywhere else for that matter) will solve the major parking problems in the Pass. Segregation will only lead to resentment of climbers.

In reply to Dan Lane:
I think that banning parking before 11 would definitely ensure that climbers would have a good chance of parking however I wouldn't be in favour of it. As very occasionally I have got up early and soloed a route/quick boulder before work if I know Im not getting out afterwards. Plus I am pretty sure it only really benefits one group of hill users in a major way(its the lazy ones who like the rock to be nice and warm before they start climbing!) so it would be quite hard to convince anyone(other than climbers)of the benefits to the scheme. Never mind the fact that you would have to pay some idiot to stand around to keep the spaces unparked in.
Equally we could just take the road away from the pass. That would be fair to all.

In reply to The third: People arent going to park in Nant Peris or Llanberis which costs money when they can park in the laybys in the Pass for free.

Driving up the Pass at 9am yesterday there were probably 30+ people queuing for the bus by the cromlech boulders and there were no car spaces left.

Walked to that bus stop from the CC hut today to catch the 9.15 up the Pass (had Jacob's Media all to ourselves) and, apart from 1 space which was very quickly taken, the layby was completely full.

There was another big charity walk going on which may have had something to do with it.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
well I live locally in easter/summer so it seems a shame to me to arrive in the middle of the night when really I want to climb 12 hours later. I as well don't mind people parking there before I get there it just seems a bit silly to park up there when your just going to then get the bus up to the top. Ultimately if your getting the bus from the cromlech boulders up to pen y pass as far as I can tell it really would have made very little difference if you had got on it from there or beris/nant peris as the price is the same the bus turns up the same time at the final stop(correct me if I am wrong on this?)
If you read my post I am not actually advocating climber only parking(which would definitely be unenforceable and I am not in favour of), in fact this would also favour scramblers/walkers who wanted to walk in a later time and start their walks in the pass. I don't mean to be rude but I do feel you have missed the point of my post slightly.

In reply to The third: I read your post. Guy starts work at early afternoon (plenty of shift work around NW). He wants a quick blast in the hills. Parks his car at the cromlech, gets the bus to PYP then does the route I said, then back by midday.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree that's all. I fail to see why climbers can't also use the bus, or get their early or late.

In reply to TraceyR:
good point recently the parking situation in llanberis has got silly and is causing people to park in stupid places. However the lay bys before nant peris I have never seen full(and on the bus route) and also the lagoons in llanberis which I am pretty certain are by the bus depot. So presuming this ban was in effect your day wouldn't really have been affected that much you could still have done your day, right?
p.s jacobs media is in a fantastic setting, must have been brilliant today?

In reply to IainRUK:
Sorry still only just got round to replying!!!! I think your spot on and that definitely is the chink in the armour with this idea. If you wanted to do a big link up like that it wouldn't work using a bus for the first bit; however surely the 30min walk up the pass(there is an alternative non road and scenic option) wouldn't be that much hassle for someone who had such a big day ahead of them. Though I definitely accept your point.

In reply to The third: I think we are going to see parking charges, residential permits and bollards/rocks protecting verges everywhere.

In reply to IainRUK:
In fact surely that outing would be improved by heading to the side of craig y rhydader(spelling?) and continuing up to what I have heard is an easy walk but awesome setting of a ledge shuffle which takes you out on the left side of crib goch.

In reply to IainRUK:
yeah probably.

In reply to The third: The '30 minute walk up the pass'..

Which path?

The rangers path? I was told at a BMC meeting that the path doesn't exist...yet a mate worked for the NPA and mapped the thing..I have maps I bought from Joe Browns with the route marked...

That path needs a few marking posts ASAP. The PYP to PYG path needs putting in quickly.

Anyway I totally agree the 30 minute walk should be an option, but it's barely noticeable. Almost a sheep trod at the moment and very very few know a path exists.

The round Snowdon path, I forget the name needs doing.

Its strange. The NPA seem to act randomly. Take the odd steps from cwm llan to Bwlch cwm llan..they neither start at the watkins (or even the cwm llan old tramway) or reach the bwlch..and few know they even exist, yet someone spent £1000's getting them installed.

In reply to IainRUK:
something like that its the one which goes around snowdon. I did it for a DOE silver expedition. It starts in nant and goes on that side of the hillside up to pen y pass and then carrys on down to nant gwynant then via the watkin path to a point where you cross over to rhyd ddu then up that side of the hillside down to telgraph alley. I had heard it wasn't officially open as they were having a problem with a farmer about a 200m stretch before the start of the watkin path. However someone has definitely spent money on the nant peris to pen y pass section. As there were a number of new bridges/styles in place a few years ago when we did it.

In reply to The third: Yeah I know. Yet the NPA told me it didn't exist. But it is hard to follow and very rough in places. The wife runs it a lot but I still have issues finding the route through the woods at the far end of Nant.

It's almost all there. I've ran it before as a circuit, Llanberis > Rydd Ddu, over Blwch Cwm LLan > Nantgwynant > via awful path) > PYP > (via poorly defined path) > Nant

It's a nice circuit though and should be improved as part of the solution for the current problems.

In reply to IainRUK:

That was inevitable as soon as they introduced the first parking charges, people naturally head for wherever is free so you just move the problem around (and make it worse by concentrating it).

In reply to The third:

Alternatively close the parking, add more capacity further down and run more bus's. It would look so much better.

In reply to The third: Jacob's Media was brilliant - one of those little gems off the beaten track that you discover - had wanted to do it for a while and am so glad it lived up to its promise of being lovely.

I personally dont think you can set aside car spaces "just for climbers" - just wouldnt work. The only thing to do about the parking in the Pass, I think is, sadly, to put in ticket machines like the ones at the bottom by Penygurrid (sorry i cannot spell!).

In reply to Toreador:


The parking situation in the Pass has certainly caused me to move the problem elsewhere, like to the Lake Districtfor example! I wouldn't dream of climbing in the pass on a weekend in high season any more. I'll go there early or late in the year or midweek if I can but otherwise I head elsewhere.

The current situation is a mess. They've either got to accept that most people will arrive by car and accomodate that or lay on a comprehensive shuttle bus service which runs earlier, later and more often like the Yosemite or Zion model.

In reply to The third:

I think the parking in the pass is just fine, just get out of bed in a morning. It limits the numbers on the crags to those who most want to be there.

In reply to idc:


I'm afraid that's a really silly thing to say, you may think the parking situation is acceptable but the reason you give is frankly stupid. There could be any number of perfectly valid reasons why somebody who really wants to be there can't get there at the crack of dawn.

In reply to The third: Best options would be to join the Climbers Club or just go somewhere else. Personally I can think of nothing less inspiring than bouldering at the Cromlech on a hot bank holiday weekend with cars and people everywhere.

In reply to odr: The solution is very easy, extend the width of the lay by-s so one can park end in (increase capacity by about 50% I reckon). Put in meters (controversial I know but it seems the way forward as these things need to be paid for)and lay on more buses, earlier and later with a greater frequency. Simples

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

AAARRRGGGHH Please don't encourage them!! There's loads of money in the public pot already, it just needs directed the right way. (I think car parking spaces are more important than sculpted gardens in government offices, but don't work in one so would be interested in others point of view.)

The OP has a fair point, but I think the solution would be more parking at the pass itself. A massive subsurface car park anyone?

In reply to idc:

laybyes full at 9 am, and talk of parking up the night before suggests parking is not "just fine" !? was numbers on the pass crags ever a problem ?

i think its a real shame that the traditional easy access to a premier uk climbing location is now increasingly likely to require a bus ride or future pay and display, because of the anti-car/milk the hill-user mentality of the "authorities".

In reply to The third: The pass is busy. I'd say it is first come, first served. If you can't park at the Cromlech boulders, why not get the bus up from Nant Peris yourself? Surely the same theory applies to climbers as it does to walkers?

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

People are already parking end in, they are big enough that the smaller compact cars can do this at some of the bays. Definitly worth considering.

TBH I'd just do free buses in the pass, just running Llanberis > Pen Y Gwyrd, all day, paid for by parking charged at a reasonable cost in Nant and llanberis.

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

or just do away with the pay and display at the pyg area and the cromlech bus stop to encourage use of the new the pyg/pyp path, and space will reappear at the pass lay bys ?

In reply to IainRUK:
>.





Thats the best idea so far, because no matter how many parking spaces you have (50%-100% more) there will allways be another car looking for a space. The Pass is dramatic and wild looking and we should be doing all we can to keep it that way.

In reply to johnnorman:

in what way do buses droning up and down the pass all day keep it more wild and dramatic than parked cars ?!

In reply to Jim Hamilton: Because there just isn't space in the pass for that many parked cars. Demand will always exceed supply for those bays.

In reply to odr:
I am seriously considering joining the climbers club purely for the option to park in the pass, though the extra hut access would be nice. I just think it's a bit of a silly situation where the only people who get to climb in the Llanberis Pass on busy days are those who are members of the climber club or are willing to pay 3 quid for the bus. I am sure someone more cynical than me would make a connection to the high number of CC members in important positions within the BMC and that if these people couldn't get access to the pass they'd probably kick up a fuss.
Also bank holidays are frequently the best days to climb in the pass as there is often less than 3 or 4 teams climbing anywhere within it because noone can get in to it. So as long as you don't mind the busy road beneath you the hills will probably be empty.

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

They could also make one of the laybys bigger by dynamiting those big rocks that take up so much room. You could fit in several more cars in that space.

In reply to IainRUK:

but hasn't the demand come come about due to snowdon walkers trying to save a few quid and a few hundred feet, following the introduction of the pyg meters. If this demand was "managed", then the space would free up again.

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):
I would be against meters I don't believe we should have to pay to park up there. Particularly when I think I regularly visit after work at least to boulder, however I would reluctantly pay to use a cheap, regular, and reliable bus service.

In reply to The third:

or those willing to get up earlier, or those willing to (shock horror) walk a bit further.

In reply to zzz:
I appreciate that it is first come, first served. However surely if you plan on getting the bus to pen y pass and then back again, it makes little odds whether you do it from cromlech boulders, nant peris or even llanberis. So therefore you may just as well park somewhere where there isn't such a demand for parking spaces i.e the lagoons in llanberis or the lay bys before nant.
I appreciate this would probably not solve the problems, which probably requires an every ten minute shuttle bus from llanberis to nant to pen y pass to the pen y grywd and back. But it certainly reduce the demand for these places.

In reply to Toreador:
Well I know all about walking a bit further it was only a year or two ago I used to 15 or 20 times a year hitch or walk from llanberis to the pass to save money on the bus or even because it just didn't turn up. Now I have a car admittedly and I don't need to do that unless I can't park in which case I usually park in nant then hitch/walk. That said I quite often have an early shift at work finished by 3 or 4 and it wont be possible to park in the pass and currently with the crap bus service it means I either have to go to RAC or kills time till there are free spaces.

In reply to The third:

really? I tend to go bouldering in the pass (wavelength area) around that time on the weekends. And from 4 ish there's almost always a space.

In reply to IainRUK:
maybe i've just got bad luck!

In reply to pec:

Crack of dawn not required. we're not talking alpine starts here. As to perfectly valid reasons. I can't think of any. Priorities are priorities, you makes your choice. "Keep it as it is" is a perfectly valid opinion. There are plenty of people on the crags, so it can't be that difficult.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

Numbers in the pass isn't a problem at pres, though it can get pretty busy late morning at the grochan on a nice day.

It is easy access.

In reply to The third: The way you keep dissing the CC they may not want you in.

The bus is £1 for a single ticket.

Suggestion - contact the BMC wales guy - he can then start conversation with the local council to see if the parking problems can be looked into in more detail on behalf of all climbers/boulderers who want to climb/boulder in the Pass. That is what he is there for, is he not?

In reply to TraceyR:

The BMC are already "on the case" - see Mike Raine's post above

In reply to Jim Hamilton: Apologies, just read it again - hopefully that will start the wheels in motion. Perhaps the question about the path up the Pass can be addressed at the same time.

In reply to TraceyR:
I doubt any organisation would really want me in it! Though it was only once.

In reply to TraceyR:
plus 1 pound thats gone down before It was a good £3 for a return I haven't got on the bus since.

In reply to Dax H:

YES!!! I'd vote for you as priminister any day.

In reply to The third: I think it is reduced to encourage people to use it. But it does stop running ridiculously early, 7.48pm i think from pyp to Llanberis.

In reply to The third: I encountered this problem on Saturday. I have to say I was pissed off. It seemed pretty obvious that most people parked were Snowdon bound as there was nobody on the Grochan/Wastad yet the laybys were chocker. I was with my daughter (10), and we wanted to do a quick hit on Wrinkle. We did squeeze in but the arse end of the car was stuck out a little. Whilst I appreciate everybody has a right to the laybys, I cant understand why after all these years there seems to be a parking problem. Surely by now, you would expect there to be less of an issue than 10 or 20 years ago, but its worse. This means that what was there before was better...ie- more CAR parking at Pen y Pass and none of the money grabbing layby charges all over the place. Why not just charge a 'Park Fee' for the day. That way the NP get their dosh and the parking will be restored to the original position of several years ago, which was far better. A 'Snowdonia National Park Pass', daily, weekly, fortnightly, monthly, 6 month pass, annual pass.... Think about it NP, you'd be quids in and you would solve the parking issue. At the moment weekend climbing is becoming tricky in the mountains. And as for these tw@ts that park taking up 2 spaces, well thats a thread in itself!

In reply to idc:

How about you had to work in the morning or do some childcare duties or simply that you live a long way from Llanberis and it takes you 2 hours to drive there?
All of these could result in you not getting a space, none of them reflect upon your desire to climb.
You can argue the parking is ok as it is if you have some valid reasons, but that it weeds out the keen from the less keen is simply nonsense.

In reply to The third:


Are you for real? I mean really?

Roughly translated that seems to say: "I'm more important because I'm a climber. They're not climbers, so they should use the bus/walk"

And what exactly stops *you* from parking in Llanberis and getting the bus up?

In reply to JJL:
Will the bus allow for ALL THE BOULDERING MATS or will they charge for excess bagage

In reply to JJL:
a)read the whole thread.
b)that is not how it roughly translates
c)what I am saying is that people who park in the pass and then subsequently get the bus up to pen y pass could simply have done so lower down(i.e nant or llanberis) where there is less parking issues. Regardless of who they are, in fact, climbers who wanted to climb on lliwedd or on the teryn slabs would also be affected if they had planned to park in the pass and then get the bus up.
d)read the whole thread

In reply to The third: How hard would it be to:
a) build a foot pathe the length of the pass that runs parallel to the existing road?
b) build more laybys?

In reply to JJL:

Well said.

In reply to The third:

I responded to your first post - the question you made at the top of the thread.....and the translation is how it comes over, but to be sure I've not misunderstood:

You want people going up Snowdon (probably) from Pen y Pass to get the bus the whole way up (and probably pay for parking in Llanberis) so that there are free, convenient spaces for climbers to use at Cromlech?
You see that as "better" than climbers paying to park in Llanberis and getting the bus to the boulders.

What if I'm a climber who's going to boulder later but wants to do a route now?
What if I have come a very long way and have little time and am coming down a route that will end up in the Mot area?
What if I'm going to camp at the boulders later?

What if everyone is just a person doing what they do and the age old rule of first come, first served works pretty well most of the time?

In reply to The third:

As a previous poster has stated this problem is worse than it was 10 years ago so something is going wrong. The fatc that this subject has surfaced in a number of threads in tha past year suggests it is a real problem.

Indeed when we were in the Pass a couple of months ago we were shocked to see so many people walking up from the parking down by the Pen-y-Gwyrd. This included families with small children.

The problem may be simply that more people are wishing to access the many and varied outdoor activities this outstanding Valley has to offer. On one hand this is a good thing - but in the short term provides a number of access challenges.

The increase in numbers needs to be accepted - the trend will be up not down - and a resulting access strategy developed by the council in partnership with local user groups.

Suggestions around parking, bus stops and routes, paths and laybys etc all need to be thrown into the mix and a resulting plan developed.

At present it is like using a sticking plaster to cover an open wound and there are serious safety issues with large numbers of people wandering about on narrow mountain roads.

Ultimately it is the local councils responsibility but their attention needs to be focused on this issue by lobbying through groups such as BMC etc.

In reply to The third:

The BMC have been involved in discussions with both Snowdonia National Park and Gwynedd council on this issue over the summer months. Both of these organisations concede that the current arrangements are not working, but that there are two basic problems - there are simply more cars in the area than there is capacity for on peak weekends (nearly three times more cars than there is capacity for!), and that the funding for the bus service (previously funded by the Welsh Assembly Government) has now come to an end.

There's more information on the article written a couple of months ago on the BMC website:-
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=3694

There is no easy answer - new car parks in the Pass would be objected to on visual and environmental grounds, and the engineering works required would be extremely destructive. The reality is that even if more car parking spaces were created in the Pass they would still fill up quickly on busy weekends. The demand for car parking spaces here has far out-stripped the resource many years ago.

The solutions will not be easy - but it does seem disappoining that the local authority's response is simply to send out more traffic wardens to issue parking tickets during peak times.
Many people believe that at the very least there should be advance warning signs at Llanberis and other key access points warning people that parking spaces are full, and directing people to car parks on the edge of Llanberis where they could then catch a bus or taxi. The current situation is exacerbated by people driving up the Pass, discovering Pen y Pass is full and then driving back down the Pass to squeeze in to the nearest available parking space or lay-by.

The good news is that the long promised path from Pen y Gwryd to Pen y Pass will be built this autumn, and BMC have responded to a consultation on the creation of a path from Nant Peris to Peny Pass - although BMC do not believe that the line proposed (although a nice enough path in itself) would be a practical alternative to those who wish to get to Pen y Pass or the cliffs in the Pass. We have responded by suggesting that a new path here should be as close to the road as possible if it's to be effective at getting people out of their cars and off the road.

BMC Cymru will be discussing this again at the meeting on the evening of Sept 21st at the Pen y Pass cafe (parking will be free for this occasion!).

Elfyn Jones
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

In reply to JJL:
Oh I do apoligise you have got the idea, my point is that a person who plans to walk up snowdon but is getting the bus to arrive at pen y pass and plans on returning down from pen y pass using the bus, could have done it lower down. I have also pointed out various places to park for free in llanberis(the lagoons) and nant(laybys beforehand) that I have never seen parking full and the bus picks up right next to. So To my way of thinking they have lost nothing in this other than if they have come over from the betws side a little bit more petrol spent(though they could have pulled up earlier and got a bus from that side) and from the llanberis side saved a bit of petrol.
First come, first served has worked well and like in general. However currently your getting a situation where less than 5 or 6 groups of climbers are getting to climb in the pass on a busy weekend. Which though not just down to parking spaces is also contrbuited by the fact the bus service is not really good enough for climbers currently, however apparantly it is improving and getting cheaper. But in my experience getting a bus up the pass used to mean hitching up and down if you wanted any sort of reliability.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:
thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thanks for the info, that's good news about the paths. I hoped the new board-walk that appeared in Nant last year was going to be the start of a new roadside path but presumably it was just a bit of cash someone had spare.

There are some interesting points in the thread but (as Iain pointed out) you can't be sure that walkers parking at the Cromlech and heading to Pen-y-Pass will not be descending to the Cromlech. Some of my favourite routes go via Cwm Glas. Furthermore, there are plenty of scrambles that start from the Cromlech area. I wonder where they fit in the hierarchy...?

I know there are plenty of problems and I have experienced them first hand for years. Personally I think everyone complaining should spare a thought for those without cars! It ain't easy getting around Snowdonia on public transport believe me!

Oh, and finally; if the Pass is choked with people, why not show some originality and head elsewhere?

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Good one.

Agree, the current 'path' from nant > PyP is nice enough but is not a valid option if you want to walk to a crag.

What I don't understand is why was that small section put in this year? The wooded path?

It wouldn't be much to install a path just on the side of the road, either side. There is space for one.

Think you are also right re advanced notice.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

More laybys would be trying to empty a reservoir with a bucket. It'd be a mess, would be objected to and would provide very little relief.

The path situation needs sorting. Without good paths and good bus service this situation is not going to change.

In reply to The third: As a slight deviation, does anybody know what's happening to the property next to the CC hut accessed over the wooden bridge which used to be a really cheap campsite?
I realise its changed hands and no longer offers camping and parking (which is a shame because parking in the Pass was never really a problem until it closed). There's obviously building work going on there so what's it going to be?

In reply to pec: It is a shame the parking and camping has been lost from there. I think it was bought by a rich dentist, who is now presumably renovating it. I may be completely out however!

In reply to IainRUK:
absolutely


Again, bang on the money, but how does it get paid for? Higher taxes on locals? voluntary contributions? Park entry fees?

There's a real feeling of entitlement with some of these posts. We are climbers, therefore we must have preferential access over the rest of the plebs, and no we can't pay - we are climbers and our parsimony is on record. As people have repeatedly posted, Snowdon, pen y pass and the pass itself are full. Over full, demand exceeds supply. Politically and economically, this is just the wrong time for anyone to seriously consider that the local authority or the park, or the NT / other landowners should fund buses or footpath building without an input from the users, but how do we get round this bloody minded refusal to contribute?

In simple terms, who is going to pay for the things that are needed?

In reply to Mike Peacock: Nice house there though. Heard its been bought by a dentist. went for quite a bit to say it had little else apart from a footprint and a view, but its location is something special.

Toad: I think user pays are fair enough. i don't mind paying when I see the improvments but I'm not sure we see that in Snowdonia. It seems that GC like to tax the users and put that money into the council rather than sorting the access issues.

It's got a lot worse recently, so I just do not think the current thinking is working. Some friends from the village popped around the other night and we were talking about parking in Nant, so it is already gettint a noticeable problem. People are parking in the village to save paying a few quid and parking in car parks..

In reply to toad: Not sure if it's entitlement. We can see things like a cafe get built on top of snowden yet funds are tight for a path up the pass

In reply to IainRUK: It's a difficult one for councils. As elected officials, their priorities are to keep taxes low and safeguard the services their voters are most concerned about (and therefore their own jobs), and I'm guessing that footpaths for tourists are a long way down most peoples lists compared to the usual healthcare/road repair/ rubbish collection gripes common to anywhere. The NP has different priorities, but again limited funding opportunities.

What I'm really concerned about is some peoples (not you) obsession with something for nothing, be it climbers, walkers, day trippers - we are all equally guilty and being able to tie a bowline does not exempt us from an obligation to contribute - to day to day upkeep, not just to some vaguely desirable specific future improvement, like a path from the PyG or reserved parking places.

This is the Hardin and the Tragedy of the Commons again - if there is a resource we all benefit from, but have no obligation to maintain, then soon enough, that resource will degrade to unusability, and (pausing to load more scattershot), we need to look beyond the occasional "crag clean up", as it is the parks ('cos this is just as applicable to The Peak or the Lake District) as a whole which we are degrading, not just the approach to the Cromlech or Stanage Plantation or wherever. Sooner or later Dont Care gets Made to Care and I'm guessing it will be more draconian than simply car park charges

In reply to The third:


I haven't had time to read the other replies but support this proposal in its entirety - I've said pretty much the same thing myself in the past.

In reply to Si dH: Of course one major flaw in this 'no pick up before 11am' idea is that the Sherpa bus is no longer funded. Padarn took over the contract and will want to take as many paying passengers as possible. I don't think they'd be keen on leaving people waiting at the side of the road!

In reply to toad:

Indeed. Just look at the glee spread about the internet when news broke that parking charges at Pen-y-Pass couldn't be enforced. It was pathetic. Yes, it costs £10 now as it's one of the most popular places in Snowdonia. If you don't like it, don't park there.

In reply to Mike Peacock:
If they charged £10 to park in all the laybys down the Pass then they'd probably still fill up too. What's the alternative? A bus with rubbish operating hours, a very long walk, or try to hitch a lift from someone who's going to have to pay £10 so is likely to be feeling less generous than they might.

In reply to Toreador: I've no idea, but we're all part of the problem.

Anyway, as Snowdonian buses go the Pass is fairly well served!

In reply to Mike Peacock:

what about if the bus co. took a share of the Nant Peris car parking fees in return for doing away with the cromlech bus stop ?

In reply to Jim Hamilton: These suggestions are getting increasingly complex. How would you figure out the share? Padarn would potentially get a bad name if people tried flagging a bus down there and were ignored. Bad reputation equals fewer customers and less money.

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

better to give them a share of the parking fees in return for running buses later into the evening!

In reply to IainRUK:

There could be a park and ride system for the pass to remove a lot of the parking problems. A levy on hotels and BB places and hostels would give free travel for their patrons and should pay for itself.
Of course the argument buses do not run late enough would be solved by late buses from Bangor running up to PYG every 2 hours for those needing to get there. With that system, a lot of people might not even take a car with them.

If N Wales wants tourists it has to pay something for the transport infrastructure, like happens in the alps in lots of areas. Chamonix has free transport for people staying there as do most Austrian tourist valleys.

In reply to sutty:

You've hit the nail on the head! It's all well and good having Sherpa buses in the mountains, but more is needed to link the coast (especially Bangor) with Llanberis, Capel, etc. Arriva have helped the last two summers by running buses in a big loop round the Glyders (Bangor-Ogwen-Capel-PyP-PyP-Llanberis-Caernarfon-Bangor) but they still aren't frequent enough. With the student population in Bangor, and visitors arriving by train, there is a large untapped customer base who would use buses to access Snowdonia if they were reliable, frequent and affordable.

In reply to sutty:


In a lot of alpine resorts, it's the lift companies and similar who pay for these services - there is little incentive in the UK to pay for such things as the hills themselves aren't as commercialised. There are only so many people who can squeeze onto the train, and that goes from llan in any event. THe people will still come and use the shops/ B&Bs etc because they aren't near the mountain venues - part of the aim of the original green key was to move the parking nearer the commercial centres

I'll keep banging on about the mountain users needing to contribute, because there isn't going to be some magic money from anywhere else. Nobody else is going to contribute - not the local businesses, they haven't an incentive, not the local or park authorities - they've been hit by the austerity budget, and certainly not the magic climbing fairy - I've got some bad news on that front.

In reply to toad: There's a good system in the Val Clarée (Nevache) which has no ski resort, only runs in summer, but then the road is a xc ski track in winter

In reply to toad:

What a load of tosh, in effect you are saying they are not interested in the walkers and climbers in cars, but only the people who day trip using the shops then sod off home again.

Well it is the walkers and climbers that keep a lot of places going in the winter, still going up Snowdon when the railway and cafe are shut on top and getting there is a challenge sometimes in itself.

See how much money meters will make in winter, zilch, in fact keeping them going will cost more than they take.

I avoid going into most towns now to avoid risking a ticket because of having the wrong colour of car or reg no or it is an odd or even date or the sign is not obvious when you enter a zone. Hate their money making schemes and will not play.

Give me a decent park and ride that is not a rip off and me and others will use it. Make it obvious that it is the same price from Llanberis or Nant Peris to PYP and those people who park in the laybys may use it, after all, a lot of them will have driven to PYP, found it full and parked at the nearest place they could to go up the PYG track.

In reply to sutty:
no I'm saying the financial imperative to contribute isn't there, which is slightly different


But they don't spend the money!. There's no point in keeping your business open for the winter so some walker can spend a rainy afternoon trying boots on before ordering them for a fiver less off the net.

A lot of stuff shuts in the winter, but the point is that the walkers and climbers have to stick their hand in their pocket at some point to support the infrastructure - ask a lot of the outdoor retailers with shops in places like capel or betws - they've either gone online themselves or their in financial difficulties because for the sake of a few quid, climbers aren't using them anymore. More worryingly for me, the majority of posts have been about ways of avoiding any sort of payment for transport at all or getting preferential treatment as some sort of right, and that just isn't sustainable.

A lot of schemes just push the poblem around, as we can see at the Pass (please don't think I'm defending the model being used there, because it's flawed, and doesn't offer a long term solution)

Well exactly. I don't think we are really that far apart

In reply to Mike Peacock:

the share could equate to the fares they get from that stop. if there is no bus stop sign and a notice saying park in nant peris etc, then i suppose people will quickly get the message. not ideal i agree, but if there were a simple solution i suppose it would have been suggested by now. the alternative is pay and display in the pass.

In reply to Toreador:

Getting up earlier isn't a solution it is an arms race. Go down that road and it will end up with the cromlach bolders covered in cr@p from the 2-300 people biving in the pass every friday and saturday night in summer

In reply to toad:


what infrastructure are climbers and walkers meant to be supporting ?

i agree retailers in betws might be struggling, theres a lot of competition, but i see Mr Brown has opened a new store and a cafe? at pyp.

it costs a lot to motor from afar, so hill users might understandably want to avoid more expense/hastle by being corralled onto a green key park and ride scheme.

i don't agree that op's suggestion is an elitist attitude, it seems a reasonable proposition. h'es not suggesting only climbers can park there.

In reply to The third:


Thank you. Accepted.


So why should it be good enough for walkers?

In reply to JJL:
Well Im not convinced the bus service is good enough for walkers. But for those that are already using it they could simply park lower down the valley at no extra hassle

In reply to pec:

I have neither kids nor proper job and live over two hours away. A reflection of our different priorities!

In reply to The third:

Ban ALL parking in the pass. Allow only stopping to look at the view and have an Ice Cream or to drop off passengers. Run the bus service every 10 mins all day. Anyone who wants to be picked up outside bus times can arrange for a local taxi.

In reply to idc: Are you suggesting that people who have kids are less committed to climbing than those that don't? There's no correlation, just that sometimes the kids will have to have priority.
By the way, I don't have kids, though many of my climbing partners do.
I can accept the first come first served argument, but not your reasons for it!
As I've said above, my solution to the problem is not to bother climbing there at weekends in summer but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

In reply to The third: keep the parking as it is . make the bus more expensive the nearer to P-Y-P you get . that way more people will park in Llanberis. make the cheapest option park and ride from Llanberis and more people will use it.