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Stick clipped low cruxes - Why get the lead tick?

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 Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022

Just a little head scratching this morning. It's clearly quite common to stick-clip the lowest bolt or 2 on sport routes. It's also quite common for the crux of routes to be within same the part of the route which is typically always protected this way. If we are essentially top-roping the crux moves anyway on such routes, why then do we still place the onus on leading the route to get the full tick?

Do grades factor in if a crux is typically pre-clipped? (I'm guessing not as it isn't trad and danger isn't supposed to factor in)

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 Fraser 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

> ....It's also quite common for the crux of routes to be within same the part of the route which is typically always protected this way.

Based on my experience and across all rock types, climbing styles and venues, it's pretty rare for the technical crux to be within the first 2 bolts. Plus the redpoint crux can often be higher up the route.

In my opinion grades factor in only if you want them to and ultimately they're not that important, it's really about the climbing.

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In reply to Holdtickler:

Because the whole idea of sport climbing is not hurting yourself.

I mainly sport climb abroad, I would be mightily pissed off if my partner spoiled both his and my holiday breaking his ankle on day one due to some contrived ethics.

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 mrphilipoldham 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Would you choose to go abroad with a climber if you knew they followed these contrived ethics before setting off though?

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 henwardian 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Fraser:

> Based on my experience and across all rock types, climbing styles and venues, it's pretty rare for the technical crux to be within the first 2 bolts. Plus the redpoint crux can often be higher up the route.

I would wholly agree with this. I think where the OP climbs must be very atypical compared to other sport climbing venues.

I think that if someone happens to want to use very contrived ethics on a sport route then that's really up to them (obviously excluding practices that spoil the route for others like chipping). I don't think it's likely that those ethics will make their way into consideration for the climbing community at large unless it's done by someone at or near the cutting edge who also feels the need to change the existing ethics.

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 nikoid 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Because the whole idea of sport climbing is not hurting yourself.

Who says?

A corollary to that is that the whole idea of trad climbing is hurting yourself. Obviously sport climbing is less risky, but I've done plenty of sport climbs where you would definitely hurt yourself if you fell off them at the wrong moment.  

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 Mike Stretford 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

> Do grades factor in if a crux is typically pre-clipped? (I'm guessing not as it isn't trad and danger isn't supposed to factor in)

The lower climbing will be easier as you're not having to place the draws and clip the rope, so I would say yes..... but it hardly matters unless you're vying for sponsorship!

In terms of personal satisfaction you can do a route with a higher crux next time..... or just clip the first bolt (always fine IMO). Personally, if it looks dodgy, I will clip the 2nd..... short falls are a shit way to get injured, you've hardly climbed anything yet!

Edit: Agree with Hedwardian, it's rarely the case.... my clipstick is used mostly as a walking stick.

Post edited at 10:42
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 Petrafied 31 Jul 2022
In reply to nikoid:

> Who says?

> A corollary to that is that the whole idea of trad climbing is hurting yourself. 

No it's not.

 Petrafied 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

> It's also quite common for the crux of routes to be within same the part of the route which is typically always protected this way.

Er, no.  Not really.  Sure you aren't climbing a bouldering venue where someone stuck a few bolts in.

OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Just to clarify, as I realise the title is a bit ambiguous, I'm not challenging the ethics of pre-clipping for the sake of safety. Nor am I questioning if one "gets the tick" for stick-clipping a low crux. This is sport climbing, you don't get bonus points for danger   I get that.

I guess what I meant is, say you've worked a route on top rope, managed it clean in one go. If it was a route where the the crux was under the pre-clip height would you still feel compelled to do the lead to satisfy yourself that you had completed the route or would you be content with your successful TR ascent? What rules/code do you have in your version of our crazy sport? Just armchair ponderings... 

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 deacondeacon 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

If you're climbing a route where the crux is within the first two bolts you're more than likely on a shit route.

Most importantly, just do what you like as long as you're not damaging anything. Clip them all, don't clip any. Solo it or jumar up it in a tutu. Unless youre climbing in the 9's and vying for a sponsorship deal it's just pissing about on some rocks. 

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OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Fraser:

> Based on my experience and across all rock types, climbing styles and venues, it's pretty rare for the technical crux to be within the first 2 bolts. Plus the redpoint crux can often be higher up the route.

By "redpoint crux", do you mean the point where you're more likely coming off due to lack of endurance rather than lack of the right moves? If so then yeah, I get that the longer the route the higher that point is likely to be. But is there any reason why the technical crux would rarely be low down? Is it a geological thing?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Don't clip-stick the bolts if you don't want to.

Why not be laissez-faire about the ordinary punter, *as long as* people are transparent about what they did or didn't do. I mean if I can get up some route or not in a particular style it makes no difference to anyone but me (and climbing partner).

Agreed if there is a low crux like this and it's a significant ascent of some sort then it deserves debate, but for 95% of climbers, does it matter?

 mik82 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I will clipstick the required number of bolts to prevent myself decking out or tumbling down a slope and taking the belayer with me. It's usually just the 1st but after breaking my calcaneus recently I will often do the 2nd too. I don't really care about the "ethic".

OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to deacondeacon:

> If you're climbing a route where the crux is within the first two bolts you're more than likely on a shit route.

Or bouldering But (slightly) more seriously, there are loads of limestone crags that have pretty cruxy-looking steep starts. I say cruxy-looking as I've either never been good enough to get past them or brave enough to try (more likely) to find out what lies beyond.

As for grades, yeah they can help you, hinder you, motivate you crush you, scare you, embolden you. Or they can mean nothing at all...

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 Marek 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I think you're confusing sport and trad. In sport climbing there's no really ethical distinction between 'lead' and 'second'. The reasons for not top-roping are more practical than ethical: You can't easily top-rope an overhanging route and even if you could, seconding is usually far more faff than leading (assuming you're OK with short/safe falls).

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In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Would you choose to go abroad with a climber if you knew they followed these contrived ethics before setting off though?

Generally my partners are of the same mindset,let's not spoil each others holiday.

In reply to nikoid:

> Who says?

> A corollary to that is that the whole idea of trad climbing is hurting yourself. Obviously sport climbing is less risky, but I've done plenty of sport climbs where you would definitely hurt yourself if you fell off them at the wrong moment.  

If it was about hurting yourself, there would be no bolts.

Of course there are climbs on which you can hurt yourself,risk can only be minimalised,not eliminated.

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OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to CantClimbTom:

I think you might be missing my point. Stick those low bolts people, legs are good!  

I guess I'm interested in people's personal motivations, what makes them tick, what makes them tick what they tick (oh he's on fire today!). I guess my personal motivations have changed a lot through my life. I've been an onsight purist at one extreme in my youth and then at other stages been just over the moon to top-rope a vdiff. I've had times when top-roping was enough for me and immensely fulfilling but then I've also had that urge to return and lead some of those routes creep back in sometimes. I almost felt my most zen-like as a born-again shameless top-roper!  

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 wbo2 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:  I have to admit , as a geologist, I can think of a ton of crags with undercut starts where the crux is pretty low.  But it's sport climbing, and don't overthink it although you need the lead for the tick

 The Pylon King 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Sport climbing is just top roping. Climbers need to admit this and move on.

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In reply to The Pylon King:

I kind of agree but I can't convince my broken ankle 

Post edited at 12:47
In reply to Holdtickler:

If we are essentially top-roping the crux moves anyway on such routes, why then do we still place the onus on leading the route to get the full tick?

Because I can't usually clip the belay with a stick?  .  (NB doesn't apply to Panorama Crag or Silverdale!) 

 Misha 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I would always preclip the first bolt and sometimes the second, if there is a risk of decking before clipping the second. Another option is putting a sling on the second bolt. These days this is an accepted approach, so I don’t feel like I haven’t done the route properly, regardless of where the crux is. 

 JIMBO 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

First bolt or two can usually be rodeo clipped anyway without a stick... 

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 steveriley 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Marek:

> In sport climbing there's no really ethical distinction between 'lead' and 'second'. 

Wait, what?

 Pedro50 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Marek:

> I think you're confusing sport and trad. In sport climbing there's no really ethical distinction between 'lead' and 'second'. The reasons for not top-roping are more practical than ethical: You can't easily top-rope an overhanging route and even if you could, seconding is usually far more faff than leading (assuming you're OK with short/safe falls).

I totally disagree.

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 Ciro 31 Jul 2022
In reply to nikoid:

> I've done plenty of sport climbs where you would definitely hurt yourself if you fell off them at the wrong moment.   

Even with old school bolting in places like Finale Ligure, you should be safe to fall on sport routes 99.9% of the time, as long you've stick clipped the start and kept your feet on the right side of the rope, and you've got a decent belayer.

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 biggianthead 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

In response to your original “head scratch”, I’ve always wondered why the first bolt is often so high up (encouraging the use of clip sticks). Given that bolts are installed to ensure that the climb has an acceptable level of risk, it seems odd that climbers are more likely to get injured in the first few metres when they are close to the ground. Logically there would be several bolts close to the ground to minimise the chance of a ground fall

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 john arran 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Pedro50:

> I totally disagree.

I disagree too, but only because the general feeling among climbers is that a sport route hasn't been done 'properly' unless it was done on lead, not because I think there's any great distinction between lead and top-rope in terms of actual difficulty.

The biggest difference, of course, is that when top-roping, a lot of climbers keep the rope snug enough to be of actual assistance, which usually isn't possible when leading. If top-rope ascents were credited similarly to leads, we'd see all manner of dodgy tight-rope practices and subsequent claims of success. Not that that would be a big problem either, as people only fool themselves, and the top climbers would insist on a very slack top-rope anyway.

A big reason why most of the harder routes aren't top-roped is because it would be practically impossible to do so! Even with bolts clipped above you, if you fall off you're further from the rock so it's harder to get back on, and there's often no chance of pulling back up the rope to get on again either.

Added to which, a lot of people still insist that leading is harder, psychologically, than top-roping. And to a small extent (depending on how comfortable you are with short falls) they have a point. But since when was fear of falling an inherent component of sport climbing? We don't give routes a higher grade when the bolts are miles apart, so why should the route be called easier with a rope from above?

 Pedro50 31 Jul 2022
In reply to john arran:

Well I flashed a 7b at Portland on a handy top rope at the end of a busy weekend. The following weekend it took me four tries to redpoint it, due to self-induced mental pressure and a slightly poorly positioned bolt. In agreement with your views however.

In reply to john arran:

> Added to which, a lot of people still insist that leading is harder, psychologically, than top-roping. And to a small extent (depending on how comfortable you are with short falls) they have a point. But since when was fear of falling an inherent component of sport climbing? We don't give routes a higher grade when the bolts are miles apart, so why should the route be called easier with a rope from above?

It's also interesting that people do extend bolts to the point where they're almost adding an extra bolt in between the existing bolts. This doesn't seem to be seen as 'unethical' (well - to most people) but you could say that, done near the crux, it's essentially making the crux a top-rope. 

Personally, I'd say that if the crux is that low down, you're on a highball so bring N+1 pads and spotters (or just stick clip the first two bolts).

 snoop6060 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Stick clipping anything more than the first bolt is cheating. Everyone knows that. But moderate cheating is fine sometimes because it’s just sport climbing (world class claims aside). 
 

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 PaulW 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I have occasionally wondered what people would think if someone just added extra bolts at the start of routes. Made it a bit like an indoor wall.

Wouldn't affect the actual climbing moves at all so shouldn't interfere with the ethics and rules  of the sport. Surely everyone should like it.

(and with a cheeky little comment following some of the comments on the "bolts too close to trad routes threads") If people don't like the extra bolts they don't have to clip them.

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OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I post a calm discussion topic, containing no opinions, merely seeking those of others out of interest. I don't think there was a statement in my OP that was even disagreeable (unless you've never seen a hard start). I get downvoted into the negative... For what? Taking an interest in something your not bothered about. It's this kind of school-yard toxicity that makes me wonder whether my time spent and contribution to this forum is even worth the anxiety tbh! I end up feeling this almost every time I post on here or see others getting the same treatment, again often just for asking a question. I generally try to be civil, I really do but UKC trolls Feck the lot of you! You ruin this site for everyone! Downvote away, get it out of your childish systems!

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OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Not, that is only aimed at the trolls and not to the like minded folk who would prefer this site to be the hub of a friendly and supportive climbing community.

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In reply to Holdtickler:

Style is personal; if one isn't damaging the rock and isn't lying, who cares?

Post edited at 20:38
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OP Holdtickler 31 Jul 2022
In reply to tehmarks:

I care! I'm interested in what rules other's play by in their own personal "climbing games" and how they might compare to my own. 

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 Pedro50 31 Jul 2022
In reply to PaulW:

> I have occasionally wondered what people would think if someone just added extra bolts at the start of routes. Made it a bit like an indoor wall.

Numerous extra bolts have been added since the birth of UK sport climbing, many current climbers may be unaware. Consenting Adults for example at Malham used to require care not to both end up in the beck. I have no issue with the extra bolts creating true sport routes.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I think we'd all know if we'd stick-clipped past the crux though, if we're honest with ourselves? If we haven't and the stick-clipping is largely inconsequential to success on the route but beneficial to not being hospitalised with a really stupid injury, I see no problem. If it requires a clipstick to make the crux of the route safe - why on Earth has it been bolted stupidly in the first place? Is my personal take on things.

I personally try to avoid stick-clipping first bolts unless I'm genuinely worried about taking a risky fa (ie onto my back, or onto a poor landing, or...) or second bolts unless I'm genuinely worried that I could fall and deck from clipping, just because I don't think it does good things for my head. If I do, it doesn't really bother me though. If I do and I subsequently feel like I've removed a genuine part of the challenge of the route, I know that I haven't really ticked the full challenge and know that I'll have to go back sometime and aspire to do better. If I care enough. Some routes aren't worth caring so much over though...

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Would you choose to go abroad with a climber if you knew they followed these contrived ethics before setting off though?

Why would I let the ethics another climber applied to his leads bother me?

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 Davy Gunn 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Its sport climbing so the clue is in the name. Each to his own. A clean ascent of the rock without broken ankles as a result of some spurious non existent ethic about a pre clip is the aim. Its daft to question, especially when folk work routes and often clip ahead with a stick. You could argue the only true ascent is onsight ground up as well. If you want purity then solo everything - until you join the leagues of lucky ex soloers or cost your relatives burial costs.

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 mrphilipoldham 01 Aug 2022
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Was I asking you? Presley clearly had a problem with it, hence the question.

"I mainly sport climb abroad, I would be mightily pissed off if my partner spoiled both his and my holiday breaking his ankle on day one due to some contrived ethics."

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In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Not really a problem,more mutual respect.

You may or may not know the drill,stick clip first or second bolt,climb route,if possible unclip.3 and 4 so the rope falls nicely for your partner,otherwise hook rope with the stick. Repeat until tired,cold beers on the terrace.

You may choose to do things differently,your game,your rules.

Pots on your leg leave dreadful tan lines.

 mrphilipoldham 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Yes I fully agree your game your rules and couldn’t particularly care less what ethics people sport climb by.. I just found it odd that you said you’d be annoyed if your partner played by different rules and ruined your plans. Seemed strange that you’d have committed to a holiday with them in the first place knowing that risk, is all. 

 Offwidth 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I think the problem with your OP dislikes is two-fold: firstly too many site users love a good anonymous pile on (and the site still shamefully allows this) and secondly the impression  of your thread title doesn't match that of your pretty reasonable initial post.

The reality is, despite the broadly sensible development of sport climbing, where clipsticking anything where there is a significant risk of decking is legitimate, a few climbers still like to regard clip sticks as cheating. It's their choice but given the extra risks involved it's not OK if they try and convince others (especially beginners) that it's an important ethic in sport climbing, when it's not.

Post edited at 10:01
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In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I expressed my comment poorly. My thoughts on it are that I don't want to spoil my pals holiday,he would be mightily pissed off without a belayer.i have stated this so many times previously, I thought I would flip the emphasis for once.

Most,if not all of those I climb with share these views.

Few routes have low cruxes,even fewer of the long enduro routes preferred by greying Brits do. Those that do commonly have work around,rope ladders, crazy foamed cairns etc.

Hurt myself over ethics? I wouldn't do it for God, Queen or country,so why on earth do it for climbing?

 Offwidth 01 Aug 2022
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Wouldn't you be pissed off if you went on a paired climbing holiday with someone and on the first day on an obvious hard start they broke their ankle, because due to ethical stubborness they refused to clip stick the first bolt(s)?

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 Offwidth 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I'm an agnostic republican and I do occasionally (and will continue to) take on deliberate risk for all sorts of meaningful moral reasons, and more mundanely take on risk every time I climb (as overall it enhances my life in ways I find important) but with a careful eye on avoiding dumb risks, like not stick clipping a sport route with an obvious hard start.

In reply to Offwidth:

Well blow me down,something we agree on.

 Andy Hardy 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

> Do grades factor in if a crux is typically pre-clipped? (I'm guessing not as it isn't trad and danger isn't supposed to factor in)

The grade should be for the redpoint. I don't really care if you claim a full tick having clipped the first 2 bolts from the deck though. If I want psychological stress when climbing, I climb trad 😉

 Offwidth 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Davy Gunn:

I've soloed thousands of pitches in my time I don't regard myself as lucky compared to the next climber as I don't take crazy risks like onsight solos at near my limits (or routes I know are sketchy for me). There must be thousands like me out there. Frankly I see the risk levels I face soloing on grit or low grade mountain routes as almost certainly more controllable and less overall that UK winter climbing, let alone allpine or greater range stuff. We all choose the games we enjoy most and risks that we are OK with.

I know on an absolute scale bad luck might get me hurt in any game and the same applies to any climber. My risks when soloing are very rare, sadly the complacency I see indoors in belaying and buddy checking is just the opposite. Not stick clipping on hard polished starts is just dumb risk to me.

 mrjonathanr 01 Aug 2022
In reply to john arran:

> I disagree too, but only because the general feeling among climbers is that a sport route hasn't been done 'properly' unless it was done on lead, not because I think there's any great distinction between lead and top-rope in terms of actual difficulty.

Trailing the weight of the rope and pausing to clip make a difference to the difficulty.

A 30m stamina fest with some awkward and powerful clipping positions will be a very different lead proposition to a top rope, but even short bouldery routes with steady clips will be marginally more difficult on lead, and a Redpoint is about fine margins, isn’t it?

In reply to mrjonathanr:

I kind of agree but your comment raises the question, what about those ascents where the climber skips clips to save energy,are those then invalid?

In reply to Holdtickler:

> I post a calm discussion topic, containing no opinions, merely seeking those of others out of interest. I don't think there was a statement in my OP that was even disagreeable (unless you've never seen a hard start). I get downvoted into the negative... For what? Taking an interest in something your not bothered about. It's this kind of school-yard toxicity that makes me wonder whether my time spent and contribution to this forum is even worth the anxiety tbh! I end up feeling this almost every time I post on here or see others getting the same treatment, again often just for asking a question. I generally try to be civil, I really do but UKC trolls Feck the lot of you! You ruin this site for everyone! Downvote away, get it out of your childish systems!

The problem is your title is different to what you are asking (very different if taken even a little bit the wrong way). You clarify it but quite a way down from the top so that can be missed, particularly by later arrivals who are then responding to a thread that has become all about clip-sticking.

 mrjonathanr 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

No, after all it would still be valid if you soloed it.

In reply to mrjonathanr:

Not sure there, the argument has gone leading and top roping the same,no leading requires more energy soloing requires less energy than either, no unclipping, and is still valid.

Picky,I know but shows how ridiculous ethics arguments can get.

1
 Will Hunt 01 Aug 2022
In reply to deacondeacon:

> If you're climbing a route where the crux is within the first two bolts you're more than likely on a shit route.

Wow. So New Dawn (7c) is a shit route. Who knew?

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 mrjonathanr 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Brilliant! So now I’ll need to go back and top rope my onsight solos for them to count. Love it

 mrjonathanr 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

In fairness, that would apply to nearly everything on Peak lime excepting High Tor. So he may be on to something.

 Iamgregp 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

So despite all the debate that's been had on this thread, this is quite a valid question for me as something like this happened to me a couple of weeks back...

Climbing at Harpur Hill, I stick clipped a first bolt as I thought the route looked a bit stiff at the bottom, started climbing it, made the moves to the first bolt (actually very easy) but then fluffed the crux that was right at the first bolt and fell off.  My mate offered to lower me back to the ground so I could groun up it, but seeing as getting to the first bolt was easy, I just quickly nipped back up again to the crux, sent it fine, clipped 2nd bolt then finished the route with no more difficulties.

So.  What was that?  Lead dog?  Lead send? A tick? 

I'm not actually bothered as I don't log my climbs anyway, and know that if I'd put my feet back on the ground after the fall it wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference, but interested to hear people's thoughts! 

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 deacondeacon 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

I said "more than likely" not "always" 😉

 mrphilipoldham 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Offwidth:

There are two answers to this. Either:

  • If I wasn’t aware that they didn’t like to clipstick the first bolts, I’d be annoyed at myself for not finding out their ethical stance on a subject that could well impact the enjoyment of my climbing holiday 
  • If I was aware of their ethical stance on clipsticking then I wouldn’t have gone on holiday with them, knowing full well it could impact on the enjoying of my climbing holiday. 
1
 Iamgregp 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Iamgregp:

No replies to a politely put question about the topic at hand and two dislikes?

[Alan Partridge voice] You people...

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 ashtond6 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

Hubble. 

Everyone starts with first three clipped and almost all the hard climbing is there.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I think most repliers on here struggled to read your question from way up on their high horse.

In answer to your question - I'm not really bothered how you climbed it. It sounds like you still enjoyed it, so that's a win for me

 john arran 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Iamgregp:

Technically you dogged it, but I can think of plenty of occasions in which I've done things broadly similar. If I feel like I've 'effectively' done a route and there's no further gain to me from doing it again without some trivial hiccup or other, then I'll walk away happily and find something I'll enjoy more. 

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 Iamgregp 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> I think most repliers on here struggled to read your question from way up on their high horse.

Ha!  

> In answer to your question - I'm not really bothered how you climbed it. It sounds like you still enjoyed it, so that's a win for me

My thoughts exactly.  I enjoyed myself, and certainly felt suitably tested, so that's all good

 Iamgregp 01 Aug 2022
In reply to john arran:

Yeah, same - exactly that, felt I'd 'effectively' done it.  But not technically....

Technically a dog I guess, but doesn't really tell the whole story! 

 Martin Hore 01 Aug 2022
In reply to snoop6060:

> Stick clipping anything more than the first bolt is cheating. Everyone knows that. But moderate cheating is fine sometimes because it’s just sport climbing (world class claims aside). 

Not sure I understand that. Surely if the first bolt is quite low a fall before clipping it is unlikely to be too serious (though could still be nasty). It's clipping bolt 2 that often exposes the climber to decking from a great enough height to result in serious injury. If you can't stick-clip bolt 2 because it's cheating, why bother to stick-clip bolt 1?

PS - just back from a sport-climbing weekend in Portland - well exposed as basically a traddie by forgetting to take my prusik loops off my harness!

Martin

In reply to Iamgregp:

You dogged the route.

Post edited at 18:23
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 George_Surf 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

its really simple for me. am i worried about hitting the floor? if so i clip the first bolt, if im still concerned i clip the 2nd. that is all it comes down to. my legs and the ability to keep climbing trump taking the purest ascent possible

 Misha 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Skipping bolts isn’t that common with standard bolting (and even less so with some of our old school bolting). Mostly people do it on steep routes where bolts are placed relatively close to each other to help with working the route and in the knowledge that some will likely be skipped on redpoint as they aren’t necessary.

Clearly having to clip and trail the rope makes a difference but skipping the odd bolt is par for the game I think. 

3
 Misha 01 Aug 2022
In reply to Martin Hore:

If there’s a good chance of decking while clipping the second bolt, either the route is badly bolted or it’s due to natural features such as hollow flakes getting in the way, either way clip sticking it is par for the course in my book.

Not unusual for first bolts at some crags to be at a height where the second or third bolt would be at other crags. It’s all case specific and common sense applies. 

1
In reply to Misha:

>  Not unusual for first bolts at some crags to be at a height where the second or third bolt would be at other crags. It’s all case specific and common sense applies. 

Ah, I see you've climbed on the slate! 

 Ian Patterson 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Will Hunt:

> If you're climbing a route where the crux is within the first two bolts you're more than likely on a shit route.

> Wow. So New Dawn (7c) is a shit route. Who knew?

The technically hardest moves on the route but don't think you'd find many (any?) people who'd say it was the redpoint crux - if it was New Dawn would be a much worse route.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Do you remember what you have climbed if you don't log it?

And I'd say it was a lead dog if you didn't lower to the ground. If you then tried to claim it as a clean lead you would forever slip from the high esteem I hold you in.

I fell off a 6a last night, which was sort of annoying as after managing the moves after a rest I had run out of puff to redo it from the floor, and the crag is about 3000 kms from home. Top tip: there are no holiday grades in the the deprived northern suburbs/forests of Helsinki - although there is amazing pocketed granite like I've seen nowhere else!

 Iamgregp 02 Aug 2022
In reply to TobyA:

I normally just tick it and make a note in the guidebook, though I've got out of the habit of this in the last couple of years...  I should really go back and start logging everything on UKC or "the other one" almost started doing it as a lockdown project but added my record collection to discogs instead! 

Yeah that sounds super annoying - there's nothing more frustrating than working out all the moves on a route, and knowing you stand a good chance of sending it, but also knowing you don't have the energy to give it another try!

In reply to The Pylon King:

I was thinking about this comment today as I felt sick with fear trying to clip at a crag in Albania! 
 

I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with an opinion less ha! 

 jiminy483 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

What's it called when you stick clip to the top of the route then top rope it? This is my favourite type of sport climbing.

In reply to jiminy483:

Two top rope ascents? 

Post edited at 20:13
 Misha 02 Aug 2022
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

And a few old school lime sport crags. 

 Darkinbad 03 Aug 2022
In reply to Holdtickler:

I think any debate about the value of stick-clipped ascents will wither away (and largely has already) in the same way that nobody makes a big deal of redpoint vs pinkpoint any more. Sport climbing is about taking on the challenge of the physical difficulty of a route (which also has its own mental challenges) while keeping risk and faff to a reasonable minimum. Top roping is less favoured because it is more faff, combined with a lingering attitude that real climbing is about leading. For speed climbing, the opposite is true, and nobody worries about the validity of that style or the possibility of assistance from the rope.


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