UKC

"Up on Ben Nevis Ian Parnell, Guy Robertson and Mark Garthwaite did a very quick second ascent of The Secret (Andy Turner's line in Number Three Gully)"

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

That's a pretty quick repeat. Does anyone have anymore info? Or know if Andy's excellent style was emulated?

Good effort.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: somebody must no something?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: with a team like that getting on it i think the end product is rather obvious laddie..

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I know nothing. But I am interested to know what made Andy's style 'excellent'?

Happy New Year to everyone.

Mick

In reply to mick taylor:
I would have thought that was obvious.

To walk up to a line that has never been climbed before and climb it completely onsight, ground up and with no previous inspection is perfect style. Not to mention that the route is harder than anything else on the Ben and pushed the boundaries of what has previously been onsighted.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Fair does - very impressive. However, without sounding too pedantic, surely no-one can repeat that style because its already been climbed.

What grade was it given?

Mick

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

They only did what others have done in the past on the Ben and elsewhere

"climb it completely onsight, ground up and with no previous inspection is perfect style", that is what Scottish winter climbing is all about.

I will look forward to hear what people who have done the route rather than idle speculation.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Hi Tom, all the Best etc.



BTW, you have mail.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


>

you need to be careful with statements like that Tam... its always wise not to denigrate the achievements of the past masters..

I have heard about the second ascent from one of the team, but its not my place to comment here, lets just say we have some grading issues to sort out in scottish winter climbing

In reply to Erik B: Happy new year everyone. A bit more info on our repeat of the rather fine The Secret.

We picked the right day, walking up from the visitors centre and getting a fantastic sunrise just before dropping down number 3 gully. The route was well hoared/snowed up with a bit but not too much ice in the crack. Garth led the first pitch which is stunning steep hooking and bridging up wide cracks in a chimney, we felt this pitch was VII 7. I then led the second pitch, managing to span in from the belay (which is high up left) and so probably missed a move that Andy would have made on the first ascent (he down climbed and accessed the crack direct I think.) The next 15ft were the crux, with an unhelpful icy crack and very very thin hooks. I also had two flakes pull off on me which came close to ruining my onsight. Luckily I held it together and the rest of the route had better hooks with a superb pumpy finish.

We had a bit of a debate about what grade we thought this pitch was. Guy and Garth have probably done more hard routes between them than anyone but Pete Benson and so have a better idea than me on what a X could possibly be. Guy felt that the Needle Crack that Pete onsighted on their second ascent was a harder lead and on a much longer route. They felt the Secret was possibly hard VIII 8, however both are notoriously tough graders, and both benefited from seconding. The crux took me almost half an hour to unlock whereas Garth having seen the sequence and had the hooks dug out by me and Guy did that section in about 30 seconds. So my feeling is that its IX 9. Ive spoken to Andy Turner, and he goes with that as it was what he initially thought.

More importantly the route is superb, a stunning line, that is in condition often and I think will prove a popular challenge. In my opinion its amongst the very best short routes Ive done in Scotland. As Garth said the boys would have been well pleased to have found such a stunning first ascent. Despite global warming leading to doom and gloom for winter climbing its beginning to feel like a bit of a golden age of mixed climbing at the moment, with Andy's lead of the Secret a shinning example of whats great in Scottish winter climbing at the moment.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Well done, to you, Garth and Guy.

Yet again the Ben is back as the Premier Neige venue for Scottish winter climbing.

In reply to Norrie Muir:


When did it stop being the "Premier Neige venue for Scottish winter climbing"? What ever the f*ck that means?

In reply to Ian Parnell:
We were watching you folks from Babylon all day and it looked like a very smooth lead by you Ian, well done!
I wouldn't say it was "well" hoared up, but the second pitch nevertheless looked like enough snow on the ledges and in the grooves to make it in acceptable condition. I watched the video of the first ascent and there was alot more rime on it back then, perhaps that's why they gave it grade X.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
<Start Hijack>
My mails getting bounced back via UKC, maybe better to try mailing me fella.

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In reply to gwh: very good point

In reply to Ian Parnell: well done on the repeat.

i would probably disagree that garth and guy are notorious hard graders or but that they are still in the school of thought that the overall grade shouldnt keep rising exponentially into madness? just a thought.. having grown up with 'glasgow grades' i always respected routes done by the likes of garth, prentice, clarke etc and their grades where never ever soft touches but reflected the old system (which was still in use when i started) very well.

anyway, interested to hear you went the tourist route to get those high crags, a brilliant idea to avoid the scree slog from the CIC, nice one!

Tam, dont get norrie started on the premier neige thing!

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Hey Bubba, me thinks you're going to have to work a bit harder than that to get your grade IX on-sight tick! That's not intended to diss Andy's first ascent though - some quality product there.

Cheers, Guy

In reply to Wry Gob: You're probably right Mr Gob, I'm sure you'll find something to point me at within the month?

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Ha ha, given some of the projects discussed I don't think you need me for directions Ian! I on the other hand might need your 'vigorous attitude' though

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide and Ian P:

Thanks Tom for picking up on this, and thanks Ian for taking the time to fill us in on the details.

News report up here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

Jack

In reply to Ian Parnell:

How come you traversed in on the main pitch ? Have you got any snaps of the day would stop any speculation about the condition !!!!

In reply to Ian Parnell: Surley traversing in on the main pitch and the lesser amount of hoar/ice made your ascent easier than the FA.

The motives for down grading routes always seem dubious. How can a routes grade change, just because one climber found it easier than the previous. There seems to be a lot of modest arogance and willy waving involved in downgrades, which end in debates like this overshaddowing the fantastic achivement of the first ascent.

The grade should remain just suggested, until the route has a significant number of ascents.

Good effort all the same.

In reply to Dan Goodwin:

Because he could i guess Dan? Would seem artificial to do it any other way if Ian could reach the crack from the belay ledge.
Please let's not get into "speculation" about conditions, the other guy commenting on this has already said they were perfectly acceptable.
ps well done to all involved, 1st ascent and the repeat. It's a great looking line.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

You have been winter climbing, yes, and also perhaps understand about the subjective nature of grades?

Also it is very useful Tom if you read Ian's words:

"We had a bit of a debate about what grade we thought this pitch was... my feeling is that its IX 9. I've spoken to Andy Turner, and he goes with that as it was what he initially thought."

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:




Are you really as arrogant as you sound? I suspect so. But I very much doubt Ian Parnell is.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Tam, you will always get grade debates with routes at the highest levels, particularly as the grade of X was given for an onsight groundup ascent and therefore miles harder than any pevious onsight groundup ascent. Guy and Garth are two of scotlands finest(ever) winter climbers who know more than most about what consitutes what grade, with an in-depth knowledge of scottish winter routes in all the different areas particularly at the upper end of the spectrum, I very much doubt they had any negative motives for stating what grade they thought it was. As ive said before they where both involved in climbing when the old system was in use therefore may have a different perspective on what type/length/seriousness of route deserves VIII, IX, X etc It is important to note Ians cmments about Guy's thoughts on Bensons lead of the steeple corner (in one long pitch) which he thought was harder than The Secret, both of which he seconded, perhaps this comment shows the mega achievement of their steeple ascent in such a quick time (and the late Alan Mullin's amazing vision of climbing his version of it in the first place)

anyway, I think The Secret is a prime line in the 21st century idiom and Andy, Steve and Viv deserve nothing but respect

In reply to JonC:

I think he thinks he knows about winter climbing grades but knows very little about how they change. Not seen his logbook but would be interested to see if he can repeat his hardest rock routes in the rain, after all conditions do not change the grade do they?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

You will never be taken serious in the "willy waving" stakes, so just stick to the arrogance.

May I remind you it was you who started the debate with "Or know if Andy's excellent style was emulated?"

"Yet again the Ben is back as the Premier Neige venue for Scottish winter climbing."

Nonsense Norrie, the mixed climbs on Lochnagar are much harder than anything on the Ben.

Cheers, G

In reply to Wry Gob:

Really, I would not dispute that "the mixed climbs on Lochnagar are much harder than anything on the Ben", however, Scottish winter climbing is more than just mixed climbing as you well know The Ben has the variety of all types of winter climbing at a high quality, at most grades and their length.

I did post about Premier Neige venues and Lochnagar was at No 2, so I do have a high regard for Lochnagar.

PS The two reasons that the Ben has easier mixed routes than Lochnagar. You lot (Aberdonians) have a history of doing mixed routes there for over 50 years and you and Pete don't come over enough to do the new hard lines.