UKC

Just that really...

I thought he was, but some perfunctory googling suggests he was a Navy surgeon during his national service. Not sure if the Royal Marines have/had their own doctors? I have a feeling that in the USMC their medics are always sailors who for some reason are attached to marine units, but not sure if the Royal Marines have some similar arrangement.

I had a feeling Patey's Cornish routes were done whilst 'in the Marines' but could be totally wrong on this.

Whilst researching climbers who were marines I did read that John Barry had soloed the Devil's Appendix in either 78 or 79 which is pretty impressive as that must have been even before the first Chacals/Barracudas were available.

In reply to TobyA:

The Chacal appeared, according to the Simond website, in 1975; there were actually four different pick options and one assumes that all were available from the outset. I recall climbers of various nationalities enthusing about them in the Mountain Room bar at Yosemite Lodge in October 1978, so they were presumably fairly widely available by that time. No idea what Barry was using.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

That's interesting - thanks Ian! Now, was Patey a bootneck?

In reply to TobyA:


Have you noticed how similar he looks to Ambassador Patey? Can't find any reference to a family connection, but seems a fairly rare name up here.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ambassador+Patey%3F%22&ie=UTF-8&oe...

In reply to TobyA:

I've no idea about Patey but the Royal Marines are a part of the Royal Navy. There are also Naval (and Army) units that are Commando trained and work along side the Royal Marines. Naval Medical units could well be one of these.

In reply to TobyA:
I seem to recall John Barry's essay in Cold Climbs mentions Hummingbirds, that is about a roped ascent.

I met JB on Denali a couple of years ago. Amazing character. As was his mate Bill Barker, who kept telling all these stories about Joe and Mo, whoever they were

No idea re Patey, but I did watch this the other day which he features in: youtube.com/watch?v=aYfxQBE9QkI&

I believe Guy Willet is/was a doctor and was a Royal Marine before he became a Guide.

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley:


Yep, his mate borrows a pair off another climber as they are the new cool thing (with tubular picks). The mate, leading, promptly reaches a hole in the ice where with this normal chacals you would just hook it but the tubular picks don't fit in. Barry hauls on the rope until the leader falls off, where upon Barry tells him to stop messing around and just use his own tools. Not that I've read the essay more than once or something...

Anyways, back to Patey and the marines.

In reply to TobyA:

Medical staff are Royal Navy. He may have done the commando course but he would of been a Royal Navy Commando. Probably plenty about back then.

D

In reply to TobyA:

I cannot clarify Patey's role whilst serving but his contribution to SW climbing was impressive.

He is responsible for a number of now classic routes. At Dewerstone Leviathan and Spiders Web are his, at Hay Tor he added Outward Bound and at Chudleigh he was responsible for Sarcophagus and Chudleigh Overhang.

In reply to Dauphin:


So that's different from being a Royal Marine is it?

Gosh, this is more confusing then I realised. I understand the structure of the USMC better than I do the RM!

In reply to TobyA:

According to Cleare and Collomb's Sea Cliff Climbing in Britain, Patey was a Marine doctor in Devon during the fifties.

In reply to TobyA:

According to Wikipedia the Royal Naval Commandos were set up during WWII specifically to control beach-heads during amphibious operations, and so as you might expect played a significant role in the D-Day landings, but were disbanded in 1945 as the need for beach parties decreased.

In reply to ripper:


The current 3 Commando Brigade might not agree that they've been disbanded!
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/The-Royal-Marines/3-Commando-Brigade

In reply to TobyA:

According to Mike Banks account of Rakaposhi for the Himalayan Journal Patey was Royal Navy rather than Royal Marines. He was a Marine himself so probably got the distinction right.
http://www.himalayanclub.org/journal/rakaposhi-climbed/

In reply to Iain Thow:

That article describes him as 'Surgeon-Lieutenant T. W. Patey, R.N.', which as the Marines are part of the Royal Navy does not disbar him from having been a Marine.

In reply to london_huddy:



well in my defence I did say 'according to Wikipedia'...(thus implying 'so probably wrong then')
however, the CO of the brigade in your link is described as a Royal Marine, not a Royal Navy Commando - not that I claim to understand the distinction!

In reply to ripper:
Fair enough. From memory, it was the army commandos who disbanded in after the Second World War, handing the 'messing around in small boats' role to the navy.

In reply to John2:

If he was a in Devon he was probably at Lympstone, where all marines do their training. Naval medical personnel are stationed there full time.

As regards climbing in Cornwall, I'd guess he simply took the opportunity to get down there in his own time or on 'adventure training'. Marine climbers have trained at places like Sennen for decades, hence many of the route names (Commando Crack etc). However, as a naval doctor on attachment to the marines I wouldn't have expected him to be considered for the Mountain Leader Training Cadre - the marines' mountain specialists - started as the Cliff Assault Wing in the '50's. Some of you may remember a documentary from years back (late '80's?) showing cliff-climbing at night, dislocated shoulders and all manner of fun...

In reply to london_huddy:

No, Army Commandos still exist. Gunners, Engineers and Support Arms with CDO logistics.

D

In reply to Dauphin:

Cdo trained individuals, yes, but there's no army cdo unit, just guys who have passed the all arms cdo course.

In reply to london_huddy:

You mean like
29 Commando - Artillery
24 Commando - Engineers
383 Commando - RLC

Like those army units of commando trained soldiers?

In reply to dutybooty:

I stand corrected. Every day's a school day.

In reply to TobyA: Are you missing the religion threads?

In reply to ripper:


Personally I feel everyone needs a good beach party now and again!

Thank you all - I feel we have got to a point where I can say definitively that he was probably not in the marines but might have been. It's good to clear these things up!

In reply to John2:

But those that are Royal Marines are described as R.M, the others just as R.N.

In reply to TobyA:

In fact, I'd say he was definitely not in the Royal Marines. He was a Navy doctor (I think the RN call them all surgeons)living in the Plymouth area in the late 50s (when he did first ascents such as Wrecker's Slab). I think that he was attached to the RM Commando Training School at Bickleigh on the edge of Dartmoor (close to the Dewerstone), but he may have been at either the RM Barracks or the RN in Plymouth/Devonport, but not Lympstone.

It does get a bit confusing: Marines can serve in the RN Fleet Air Arm (as did my father in the 1930s), but the Marines don't have their own doctors. Marines used to have detachments (maybe still do) on RN ships.

In reply to TMM:
What other routes did he do in the SW? I only know of those 5, Vandal and Ann and Wreckers Slab.

In reply to TobyA:

I have a copy of k2 savage mountain, savage summer if your want something researching. Just seen a copy on Amazon for 1 new pence however.

D

In reply to alan moore:

At Chudleigh there's Barn Owl Crack.

In reply to TobyA:

Even if he was just a R.N. Doctor,looking at his winter and alpine routes,the commando tests would not have been that tough for him.

In reply to TobyA:

just to clear up any confusion - all Royal Marines are commando trained, hence the name 'Royal Marines commandos'. Royal Marines are technically part of the Royal Navy, but in reality they operate very independently. Members The Royal Navy and the Army can also be commando trained, in order to operate alongside the marines. They do this by completing the gruelling commando course at Lympstone, where they earn the green beret (albeit with their regiment's cap badge), and also the commando dagger patch on their uniform. It is likely that the person that you are referring to is a Royal Navy commando, not a Royal Marines commando.

In reply to Betty Swollocks:

Is that what this argument is all about, how tough he was? He was certainly based at Lympstone, which is still a Royal Marines training centre. Whether a medic based there was described as a marine or a member of the Royal Navy I have no idea, but that is where he lived in the 50s.

In reply to John2:


My guess is he was pretty tough. Wasn't he planning to solo the Eiger North Face before his untimely demise? Back then (early '70s) for a Brit (well, for anyone, really!)pretty hard-core. Given his ice climbing/mixed-ground proficiency, with half-decent conditions, he'd probably have pissed it. Sadly we'll never know.

He seemed a good guy. Maybe, in the end, that's what matters most. Well, it does to me.

Mick

In reply to John2:



Eh? I inferred that considering his experience etc, that I suspect he wouldn't find the challenge particularly tough. Please use in context.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I 'met' him once when I was at Harrison's Rocks, I think in c. 1970 with my brother, but I was too shy to speak to him directly. I think he may have been with 'Mac' (Ian Macnaught Davis, who died last Monday). I don't remember much about him, except that he was quite a big 'presence', with quite an entourage, and cracking the odd joke.

In reply to TobyA:

He was a fairly frequent visitor to our house near Okehampton in the late 50s. I do remember feeling pissed off at the age of 10 or 11 when the three of them, Deacon, Patey and Lawder, my grandfather, set off without me for what were to become Wreckers' and Smugglers' (the latter considered to be the hardest of the pair). Patey also made the second ascent of Wreckers' solo, although, by all accounts the FA was in effect a group solo with ropes attached. He also visited Vixen Tor (now banned) and climbed the first routes on the extensive shale outcrops of the Tamar Valley opposite Gunnislake, later developed by Pete O'Sullivan, but now totally neglected. His best route here was Ultramontane HVS which takes an uncompromising line up a steep crag rising directly from the forest track beside the river.

In reply to TobyA:

I'll ask the obvious, did he have a penchant for wearing little black cocktail dresses and hitting his mates with rollmats?

If yes to both, definitely a bootie...

In reply to Iain Peters:

First off, Tom Patey is a legend.

Second, Vixen Tor banned? Why? Climbed there a couple of times in my teens. Scary if I recall. (No cams.)

In reply to TobyA: What Strife said.

In reply to TobyA:

Tom Patey was a doctor - a GP in Ullapool for a number of years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Patey

Mike Banks was a Royal Marine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Banks_%28mountaineer%29

I'd always assumed this was common knowledge within mountaineering circles.

In reply to FesteringSore:


It is. But was Patey a marine?

In reply to TobyA:

No. He was in the Navy. The Marines are part of the Navy, but he was not in the Marines.

In reply to TobyA:

According to the well-researched book 'Unjustifiable Risk? The Story of British Climbing' by Simon Thompson [page 230], Tom Patey did his national service in the Royal Marines.

In reply to abseil and Co1in H: Both good clear answers that unfortunately can't both be right. As abseil cites his sources in good academic style, Co1in H, can you explain why the Thompson book is wrong?

In reply to TobyA:

See here http://www.himalayanclub.org/journal/rakaposhi-climbed/ and here http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1790422?uid=3738032&uid=2129&... where Mike Banks (a Royal Marine) refers to Patey as 'Surgeon Lieutenant Tom Patey of the Royal Navy'.
So he was a Royal Naval officer. He MAY have done the All Arms Commando Course (or whatever the equivalent was at that time- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Arms_Commando_Course ). This course is designed to ensure a level of fitness, military skills and familiarity with Royal Marine activities to enable members of branches of the regular armed forces to serve with the Royal Marines (e.g. Medics, Aeronautical Engineers, Artillerymen, Engineers). On successful completion of this course those passing are entitled to wear a green beret and a commando dagger on their uniform. If Patey did complete this Commando course then he remained a Naval Officer but he could also be described as a 'commando' and would wear the same beret as RM Commandos.

In reply to TobyA:

Patey did his National Service attached to 24 Royal Marine Commando at Bickleigh (hence his first ascent of Leviathan at the Dewerstone, brill route) but was actually a Royal Navy doctor, which is why Mike Banks (his CO at the time) gives him the RN rather than RM suffix in his Rakaposhi report. See his obituary in SMCJ. So he was "with the Marines" at the time but not a marine himself, which is what has mislead Simon Thompson (generally excellent book though). Incidentally Mike Dixon (the Inverness one, not the guy Patey climbed with in Aberdeen days) is collecting an audio archive of interviews with people who knew Patey, probably being given to the National Archives of Scotland when it's finished.

In reply to Iain Thow:


Thanks very much for the update.

In reply to Iain Thow:


+1 to this. I did a bit of research in to bootie's with a background in climbingmountaineering, although it was quite a while ago...probably 15 years and understood Patey to be RN rather than RM.....i had a look on the Rm archives and couldn't find him on there..

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Gordon, I remember well those feelings of encountering well-known climbers at an early age and being too convulsed with shyness to even say hello. And then, years afterwards, you think what a pity. You realise that, whatever differences in ability, there was probably still so much in common.

Ken Wilson said the same: a big presence, an entourage, a good manner.

He seemed a superb mountaineer and a great character.

Mick