UKC

Was out with my mate yesterday in Avon gorge. It was his first day climbing trad but he has been climbing for a while. Anyway I was belaying from the top as he seconded the last pitch and I couldnt see him or hear him due to traffic noise. he seemed to stop for ages. Eventually when he got to the top he tells me that his rope came completely untied whilst he was struggling to overcome the crux of the pitch!! I have no idea how this happened but bloody hell! I think he will be using multiple stopper knots from now on. He is lucky he was able to grab the rope in his teeth to stop me pulling it up out of his reach! Anyone else had this happen to them?

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

April 1st

no seriously!!

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

Was he tied on with a bowline and no stopper knot? Never heard of this happening with a figure of 8.

Double figure 8. I dont think he used a stopper knot. He must not have pulled it tight. It is a fairly new rope, perhaps that had something to do with it.

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

My trousers would have needed throwing out for sure lol

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

I've seen a partner's stopper knot come undone, but not the fig 8.

Did he have a really short tail on it, do you know? That's how my mate's stopper undid itself.

In reply to erika: This is appalling, anybody who cannot tie a secure knot is either mentally deficient or so unbelievably careless that they should have a public health warning tatooed across their forehead. I would refuse ever to climb with him again until he can prove he has overcome his disability.

In reply to Tim Lawrence: If this isn't an Aprils fool joke, this is seriously dangerous behaviour. Your mate is lucky he wasn't killed. I would never climb with anyone who is incapable of performing perhaps the most basic climbing rope technique - the knot. it's unbelievable that anyone who climbs cannot tie a competent knot, new rope or otherwise.

In reply to Al Evans:

So do these harsh (to my mind) comments apply to my mate whose stopper knot came undone too? Because he's certainly not mentally deficient, (I think his IQ comes in at about 160 as I remember, we chatted about IQ tests once) and he's not generally careless ... he just left too short a tail and the knot jiggled itself undone.

I think the reason people react with the 'oh he must be an idiot' type response is distancing ... ie they don't want to believe it could ever happen to them, because it's too scary.

The way to stop it happening isn't to slag off anyone it happens to. It's to pull your knot tight, add a stopper, again pulled tight, and make sure the tail is long enough. And if lapping, still check it each time.

In reply to Al Evans:

People like Lynn Hill, Ian Horrocks.........there are many Al, some alive, some dead, many injured. No not mentally deficient or unbelievably careless.....just distracted in a moment in time.

It happens all over the world in climbing situations.

It could happen to you.

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

If this isn't an April Fools joke, then your mate needs to start at square one again by the sounds of things. He clearly needs to get a grip of the basics.

Never heard of a fig of 8 coming undone, stoppers yes.

Couple of questions:

Who taught him to tie in and what route/grade were you on?

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

Experience comes from surviving your mistakes. I suspect your mate will never have another knot problem in his climbing career.

In reply to JLS:

Thanks for having the guts to post that, Tim. You can get flamed for admitting your/ your partner's mistakes. And it's a useful safety service hearing about what goes wrong for other people. I don't know about anyone else, but these horror stories certainly make me more careful about what I'm doing.

Just... don't let him do that again, OK?

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

In a spirit of enquiry, I just did some experimenting. I got my bouncy new rope, tied a double figure of eight, pulled it tight but only left a one inch tail. Then I tapped the tail gently with my finger (the real rope could tap against the rock as he moved up). It quickly loosened. Then I gently jiggled it, and it came loose to the extent there were big loops, which could easily catch on something pulling teh knot completely undone.

I was quite surprised it was as easy as it was. You'd just need the right taps and jiggles and there you go.

Long live stopper knots, with nice long thwack-in-the-eye tails, I say....

In reply to gingerkate:

Did you completely weight the rope, ie tied onto something and pulled your full weight down on it?

If you "tapped" the tail and "gently jiggled it" then I suspect it wasn't tied as tight as it should have been.

All I'm saying is if you have a double fig of 8 with your full weight on it pulling down, I wouldn't have thought it would have easily come undone. Never heard of this happening before, not that I doubt what you're saying!

Anyway, my tuppenceworth!
Den

In reply to Tim Lawrence:

Long time ago I was at Curbar when someone got gripped soloing something, I chucked a rope down to him with a nice big fig 8 on the end but he could'nt let go to grab it, so he clenched it in his teeth and I top roped him like that until he got to a resting point where he got himself sorted out. Absolutely true!

In reply to outdoorbloke:

No, I didn't weight it. I just pulled it tight with my two hands. Are you telling me that best practise when seconding is to weight the rope before you climb on it? That sounds wise ... but not something I've heard before. And how would you do it when about to lead?

The reason it undid so easily was the short tail. Not because short tails slip through, but because a short tail of new rope is very rigid. So the tapping transfers into a direct 'undo' force. Wow, don't I sound anal...

Right, must get out of this house before my family goes quite mad... will check thread later.

I have never seen a problem with his knots before. As JLS said previously, I doubt this will ever happen to him again! I put it down to a combo of new rope/short tail/not pulling the knot tight at the start. The route was a Severe 4a although I think we deiated on the top pitch to something much more difficult! This is where he came unstuck. He was going to lead it but couldnt and I could only get up that section by weighting a nut which annoyed me. Although I think it was just nerves that made me do it.

Anyway, alls well that ends well and its something we can all look out for.

Tim