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There will be an informal meeting in the Listers at Malham on Tuesday 14 May after 9pm . Hopefully a good opportunity to draw up some guidelines etc . Arm wrestling and brawling will also be available for the over arguementative !! . Speaking of which WHERE'S YOUR MONEY ? still only a couple of cheques received , many thanks to the few who can be bothered to give a bit back . Cheques please payable to The Yorkshire Bolt Fund , care of Dave Musgrove 11 Wynmore Ave . Leeds LS 169 DD .
In reply to Mick Johnston:
Mick, you would perhaps get a better direct reply if you registered as a ROCKTALK user, or at least put your email in. If you are worried about spam then register, since addresses for registered users are hidden and can't be farmed by email trawlers.
Alan
Mick, you would perhaps get a better direct reply if you registered as a ROCKTALK user, or at least put your email in. If you are worried about spam then register, since addresses for registered users are hidden and can't be farmed by email trawlers.
Alan
In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
Mick only knows one kind of spam and it comes in a little blue tin and his skinny bespectacled mate has it written on his T- Shirt.
Seriously though, my dosh is on its way to the fund right as we speak together with my static rope, bolt kit and works 24v Bosch.
I'll replace the crux bolt on Appetite cos i reckon i've spent more time on it than most people.
Enty
Mick only knows one kind of spam and it comes in a little blue tin and his skinny bespectacled mate has it written on his T- Shirt.
Seriously though, my dosh is on its way to the fund right as we speak together with my static rope, bolt kit and works 24v Bosch.
I'll replace the crux bolt on Appetite cos i reckon i've spent more time on it than most people.
Enty
In reply to Enty:
Yorkshire electricity board workers use the big battery drills, see if they are interested in sponsoring a route or two by lending drills and supplying bolts. It could be a good advertising thing for them with pictures of people climbing in their literature. Worth a try
Yorkshire electricity board workers use the big battery drills, see if they are interested in sponsoring a route or two by lending drills and supplying bolts. It could be a good advertising thing for them with pictures of people climbing in their literature. Worth a try
In reply to Mick Johnston: Can't make that meeting. Not from Somerset for the evening. Is that part of the plan? Keep it down to a few locals? Yorkshire Limestone is of natianal importance. Any debate should be on a Saturday night. Having said that the only sensible course of action would be a like for like campaign. That's what happens elswhere. I know Yorkshire has a long histroy of cheating, chipping, retrobolting and the like but why not make a stance and bring it into line with the rest of the country as far as ethics go. No retrobolting, no replaceing pegs and tat with bolts, simple like for like replacment. The Avon Gorge climbers have just voted for such a proposal and where a peg can't be replaced the route is to be left for a better climber to come along. Surley that is not to much to ask given our limited rock resource in England. WHere will the next generations cut their teeth? Give them a challange; say; "go on do it better than we did."
You must vote like for like.
I'd be really chuffed if someone could take this view point to your meeting.
You must vote like for like.
I'd be really chuffed if someone could take this view point to your meeting.
In reply to Mick Johnston: needs to be on a saturday
In reply to Mike from Frome:
Judging by the Cave Route LH vote at the moment, like for like doesn't seem very popular in Yorkshire at the moment.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with some carefully selected retrobolting e.g. Rated PG, The Directissima etc
Anyway, will be sending some money towards the bolt fund - hope plenty of others do too.
> You must vote like for like.
Judging by the Cave Route LH vote at the moment, like for like doesn't seem very popular in Yorkshire at the moment.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with some carefully selected retrobolting e.g. Rated PG, The Directissima etc
Anyway, will be sending some money towards the bolt fund - hope plenty of others do too.
In reply to Mick Johnston: Sorry it's mid week but this is just a get together for anyone who's willing to help in the re equipping . The plan is just to replace old bolts as was , not to retro or replace gear on trad routes . Cave route is a different case neither trad nor sport and as the jury is out won't be getting equipped by me . For what it's worth I think the vote is misguided bollocks Where are all the so called reasonable placements ? Strip the route of it's gear and it will perhaps have two ascents then return to a dirty unclimbed relic .
In reply to Mick Johnston:
'Speaking of which WHERE'S YOUR MONEY?...Cheques please payable to The Yorkshire Bolt Fund, care of....' To put them in or - take em out?
'Speaking of which WHERE'S YOUR MONEY?...Cheques please payable to The Yorkshire Bolt Fund, care of....' To put them in or - take em out?
In reply to Dennis M:"To put them in or - take em out?" This must be at least the 3rd time you've said that on this site, it wasn't funny the first time.
In reply to Mick Johnston:
"For what it's worth I think the vote is misguided bollocks"
It's worth a lot coming from you.
Pete Gomersall was sat here the other day and he said the same thing about the vote. He thought that the majority of people who voted for taking all the gear out and leaving it as a trad route have not done the route and probably never would.
Always take internet votes with a pinch of salt.
M
"For what it's worth I think the vote is misguided bollocks"
It's worth a lot coming from you.
Pete Gomersall was sat here the other day and he said the same thing about the vote. He thought that the majority of people who voted for taking all the gear out and leaving it as a trad route have not done the route and probably never would.
Always take internet votes with a pinch of salt.
M
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
So, you are saying (or quoting with approval) that ethical decisions about a route should only be taken by those people able to climb that route?
> Pete Gomersall was sat here the other day and he said the same thing about the vote. He thought that the majority of people who voted for taking all the gear out and leaving it as a trad route have not done the route and probably never would.
So, you are saying (or quoting with approval) that ethical decisions about a route should only be taken by those people able to climb that route?
In reply to Anonymous:
Good point: no......
......but it does help your decision if you have experience of the route and the type of climbing....
it adds weight to your opinion surely......
M
Good point: no......
......but it does help your decision if you have experience of the route and the type of climbing....
it adds weight to your opinion surely......
M
In reply to Anonymous:
It may or may not be the best system but it would be a bit much if I said it should be made into a sport route if I have no chance of ever doing it. It is the reason for the meeting, if you want to go do so. If you cannot attend send your comments to one of the people calling it setting out your reasons and how you want to vote. I think you can assume that it is a concensus that is needed not a jury rigged vote and that a report will appear here or the BMC site for comment.
It may or may not be the best system but it would be a bit much if I said it should be made into a sport route if I have no chance of ever doing it. It is the reason for the meeting, if you want to go do so. If you cannot attend send your comments to one of the people calling it setting out your reasons and how you want to vote. I think you can assume that it is a concensus that is needed not a jury rigged vote and that a report will appear here or the BMC site for comment.
In reply to sutty:
I'm not sure about this consensus thing....it's almost impossible to get a concensus on any climbing issue...
I think that someone like Mick Johnston who has got a fine climbing pedigree (both trad and sport and bouldering) and climbs on Yorkshire Limestone a lot, should gather as many opinions as possible, then he and his bros should make an informed decison based on their own experiences and opinions that they have gathered.
Then go out and do what they have decided to do.
Debating at great length and with too many cooks is a great recipe for inertia - as anyone with experience of British CliMbing will tell you.
Mick
I'm not sure about this consensus thing....it's almost impossible to get a concensus on any climbing issue...
I think that someone like Mick Johnston who has got a fine climbing pedigree (both trad and sport and bouldering) and climbs on Yorkshire Limestone a lot, should gather as many opinions as possible, then he and his bros should make an informed decison based on their own experiences and opinions that they have gathered.
Then go out and do what they have decided to do.
Debating at great length and with too many cooks is a great recipe for inertia - as anyone with experience of British CliMbing will tell you.
Mick
dont bother putting these bolts in boys...waste of yer money.....as soon as they are in they'll get chopped....like for like, keep yer ethics intact....you know it makes sense....
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
assuming they are still around, why not ask the FAs of each route what they want done to their route. And then honour their reply (which might well be to let you lot vote on it).
assuming they are still around, why not ask the FAs of each route what they want done to their route. And then honour their reply (which might well be to let you lot vote on it).
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
I posted that to stop stupid comments like choppers, at least they would have a say and not going off on top ropes to chop bolts.
BTW chopper, just climb past the bolts when you do the routes, you can even solo them if you want, then you would have some respect.
I posted that to stop stupid comments like choppers, at least they would have a say and not going off on top ropes to chop bolts.
BTW chopper, just climb past the bolts when you do the routes, you can even solo them if you want, then you would have some respect.
In reply to sutty:
that a bollox argument Sutty - taken to it's logical conclusion everything should be bolted...if you don't like the bolts just don't clip them..
Lets do that to the Cromlech routes - so that more people can enjoy them..
M
M
> (In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA)
> BTW chopper, just climb past the bolts when you do the routes
that a bollox argument Sutty - taken to it's logical conclusion everything should be bolted...if you don't like the bolts just don't clip them..
Lets do that to the Cromlech routes - so that more people can enjoy them..
M
M
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Why is it a bollox arguement, if there is a vote by the people at the lister arms to replace them and chopper disagrees what is to happen. Will he chop them or show they are not needed by climbing past them? I think yyou misunderstood what I said in my earlier post.
Why is it a bollox arguement, if there is a vote by the people at the lister arms to replace them and chopper disagrees what is to happen. Will he chop them or show they are not needed by climbing past them? I think yyou misunderstood what I said in my earlier post.
In reply to sutty:
Probably did misunderstand.
the bollox argument is "climb past the bolts if you don't like them"
M
Probably did misunderstand.
the bollox argument is "climb past the bolts if you don't like them"
M
In reply to Chopper:
Definately more friendly to be putting the bolts in I think. (6 of them no more though)
>
> like for like
So the route gets filled with multicolured nylon tat again. More peg scars from hammering the replacement pegs in.
> like for like
Definately more friendly to be putting the bolts in I think. (6 of them no more though)
In reply to Mick Johnston:
I thought a consensus was being formed from the original thread?
I'd ignore the online vote, it sounds like the route would rarely get done if it was completely stripped and no one seems to be saying retro it.
Stick 2 bolts in and replace a couple of threads and then we can go and do it.
I thought a consensus was being formed from the original thread?
I'd ignore the online vote, it sounds like the route would rarely get done if it was completely stripped and no one seems to be saying retro it.
Stick 2 bolts in and replace a couple of threads and then we can go and do it.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
surely the route 'belongs' to the first ascentionist and thus their wishes re. retro-bolting/equipping should at the very least be aired and discussed?
surely the route 'belongs' to the first ascentionist and thus their wishes re. retro-bolting/equipping should at the very least be aired and discussed?
In reply to international_on_a_crap_pc: Routes belong to no one.
In reply to Mick Johnston:
I thought there was a concensus from the last thread aswell - replacing fixed gear with bolts but not putting any extra bolts in.
Whats the problem with this?
When pegs and threads are new they are bombproof just like bolts but bolts last longer and look better.
In fact any new routes or bolt replacing should have spaced bolts like they do in France these days (Tarn, St Leger, Claret)- much more fun and not really elitist.
I thought there was a concensus from the last thread aswell - replacing fixed gear with bolts but not putting any extra bolts in.
Whats the problem with this?
When pegs and threads are new they are bombproof just like bolts but bolts last longer and look better.
In fact any new routes or bolt replacing should have spaced bolts like they do in France these days (Tarn, St Leger, Claret)- much more fun and not really elitist.
In reply to Mick Johnston:
Would you care to explain your sentiments further?
Are you saying that a vocal few should outweigh an anonymous majority?
> For what it's worth I think the vote is misguided bollocks .
Would you care to explain your sentiments further?
Are you saying that a vocal few should outweigh an anonymous majority?
In reply to Mick Johnston: Stob babbling guys(not you mick). The Yorkshire bolt fund was set up to replace bolts that are past their sell by date and that is what it will do, it will not have anything to do with retro-bolting or making some massive ethical statement on bolts or where they should go.
If you want to be involved closely then come to the meeting or if you cant make it send in your money. I personally dont want to experience what happened to martin a few weeks ago on what should have been a safe route. A walk from one end of Kilnsey to the other will tell you that this re-bolting is well over due.
Have you climbed Pantomime recently? I have and lumps of rust spring to mind.
And also please stop using stupid names. Use your real ones then we can send posse round!!!!!!
If you want to be involved closely then come to the meeting or if you cant make it send in your money. I personally dont want to experience what happened to martin a few weeks ago on what should have been a safe route. A walk from one end of Kilnsey to the other will tell you that this re-bolting is well over due.
Have you climbed Pantomime recently? I have and lumps of rust spring to mind.
And also please stop using stupid names. Use your real ones then we can send posse round!!!!!!
In reply to Gareth Parry:
"Have you climbed Pantomime recently?"
Freakin squeeze job - take those bolts out.
M
"Have you climbed Pantomime recently?"
Freakin squeeze job - take those bolts out.
M
In reply to Gareth Parry:
So what do you think should happen to Cave route Gareth? Thats what started this whole thing off. I agree that replacing the bolts is a big enough job anyway but getting rid of shitty tat could be a worthy thing to do....
So what do you think should happen to Cave route Gareth? Thats what started this whole thing off. I agree that replacing the bolts is a big enough job anyway but getting rid of shitty tat could be a worthy thing to do....
In reply to IainP: My my it is a tricky one. The problem is that whatever happens not everbody will be happy. I have probably done the route more than 10 times now at various times of the year with the gear invarious states of decay. The route was a safe clip up when orginally climbed and there was even a bolt on it when i first did it. I believe that partially bolting the route to replace the pegs that are usually bomb proof is the way forward with this one. Maybe two of three bolts. This will mean the route will be inkeeping with the first ascent and remove any nasty looking tat, but it will not allow any tom, dick or harry to get up it with a clip stick. If somebody puts 15 bolts in it i would probably climb it clipping them all. If somebody takes out all the fixed gear then i would still probably climb it though more slowly. I am sure i would enjoy it just as much both ways.
In reply to Mick Johnston:
Mick, don't take too much notice of polls by annonymous people and posted comments by folk who have stupid screen names.
Locals in every area of the country have made the decisions about what is right for their area.
CRR and CRL both need re-equipping, previously good jobs have been made of other top routes, Dominatrix being a good example. Put enough bolts in to keep the feel of the original route, I'll trust your judgement. I'll also pay for them.
Dave H.
Mick, don't take too much notice of polls by annonymous people and posted comments by folk who have stupid screen names.
Locals in every area of the country have made the decisions about what is right for their area.
CRR and CRL both need re-equipping, previously good jobs have been made of other top routes, Dominatrix being a good example. Put enough bolts in to keep the feel of the original route, I'll trust your judgement. I'll also pay for them.
Dave H.
In reply to davehinton & others:
It seems to me that what you're saying is, "if the vote goes my way it's evidence that I'm right, if it doesn't it's because it's flawed". I think plenty of people would like to see CRR fully bolted (including me), but you're dismissing them out of hand. That's not very democratic of you.
It seems to me that what you're saying is, "if the vote goes my way it's evidence that I'm right, if it doesn't it's because it's flawed". I think plenty of people would like to see CRR fully bolted (including me), but you're dismissing them out of hand. That's not very democratic of you.
In reply to jon:
As the person responsible for the vote I would like to say that I think any result it comes up with should be ignored completely. The only remotely significant thing I think is the like-for-like vote being so low. The big figures at the top and bottom are just reactions to each other.
I doubt whether anyone who has an interest in Yorkshire climbing would consider either of these options as a very strong contender, and that came across in the other thread on the subject.
As I have stated about 5 times before, the purpose of having this as the May vote was to stimulate debate and not to arrive at any consensus.
Alan
As the person responsible for the vote I would like to say that I think any result it comes up with should be ignored completely. The only remotely significant thing I think is the like-for-like vote being so low. The big figures at the top and bottom are just reactions to each other.
I doubt whether anyone who has an interest in Yorkshire climbing would consider either of these options as a very strong contender, and that came across in the other thread on the subject.
As I have stated about 5 times before, the purpose of having this as the May vote was to stimulate debate and not to arrive at any consensus.
Alan
In reply to jon:
Most of us would like to turn some routes into clip-ups, but I'm happy to accept there a lot of routes I haven't got the balls to do.
If consensus is the way forward then we need more information. i.e. name, how often you've climbed the route or failed on it, preferred option etc !
Dave H.
Most of us would like to turn some routes into clip-ups, but I'm happy to accept there a lot of routes I haven't got the balls to do.
If consensus is the way forward then we need more information. i.e. name, how often you've climbed the route or failed on it, preferred option etc !
Dave H.
In reply to davehinton:
Well I could start the ball rolling...
My name is as above, I don't actually live in Yorkshire (so not a true local), but within 1.5 hours drive of Goredale.
I've never set foot on Cave Route RH (and am in the any tom, dick or harry category). I'm in favour of the full retro bolt myself and am happy to contribute to the cost.
My second choice would be for the route to have no bolts (not in a "dog in a manger" way - I'm a firm believer that if bolts are placed, you might as well do a proper job)
Well I could start the ball rolling...
My name is as above, I don't actually live in Yorkshire (so not a true local), but within 1.5 hours drive of Goredale.
I've never set foot on Cave Route RH (and am in the any tom, dick or harry category). I'm in favour of the full retro bolt myself and am happy to contribute to the cost.
My second choice would be for the route to have no bolts (not in a "dog in a manger" way - I'm a firm believer that if bolts are placed, you might as well do a proper job)
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
"I thought a consensus was being formed from the original thread? "
what gives you the impression that a concensus formed on this sites represents the views of all climbers that have an interest in these routes?
no decision sanctioned just by people on this message board, or in a pub in Malham either is representative
REALIST
"I thought a consensus was being formed from the original thread? "
what gives you the impression that a concensus formed on this sites represents the views of all climbers that have an interest in these routes?
no decision sanctioned just by people on this message board, or in a pub in Malham either is representative
REALIST
In reply to realist:
I personally think that it's a pretty good consensus based on the number of people who contributed and the number of users on these forums. How do you suggest reaching a better one? Realism may be, but a bit of pragmatism might get the route re-equipped, one way or another.
I personally think that it's a pretty good consensus based on the number of people who contributed and the number of users on these forums. How do you suggest reaching a better one? Realism may be, but a bit of pragmatism might get the route re-equipped, one way or another.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
I think that trying to get a concensus is a waste of time, the only people that express an opinion are the vocal minority, whatever gets done bolt wise in Yorkshire, most people will quietly accept it, a few people on the opposite side of the fence will kick up a fuss and make it sound like a crime has been committed, but generally no one will give a toss,
ooh no one more bolt on Yorkshire limestone, the world has well and truly ended
how about that for Pragmatic?
I think that trying to get a concensus is a waste of time, the only people that express an opinion are the vocal minority, whatever gets done bolt wise in Yorkshire, most people will quietly accept it, a few people on the opposite side of the fence will kick up a fuss and make it sound like a crime has been committed, but generally no one will give a toss,
ooh no one more bolt on Yorkshire limestone, the world has well and truly ended
how about that for Pragmatic?
In reply to REALIST:
Total B*llox in my opinion. Sure, Mick J could have just gone out and bolted it up, replaced like for like or whatever. But actually taking the time to get some more views on a forum like this is worthwhile. And if these views are taken into account, then that's more of a 'consensus' than not asking anyone, or just your immediate mates/local activists. I think it's a positive thing, at the very least, it gets some interest going in high quality routes which might be getting a bit neglected.
> (In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor)
>
> I think that trying to get a concensus is a waste of time, the only people that express an opinion are the vocal minority.
>
> I think that trying to get a concensus is a waste of time, the only people that express an opinion are the vocal minority.
Total B*llox in my opinion. Sure, Mick J could have just gone out and bolted it up, replaced like for like or whatever. But actually taking the time to get some more views on a forum like this is worthwhile. And if these views are taken into account, then that's more of a 'consensus' than not asking anyone, or just your immediate mates/local activists. I think it's a positive thing, at the very least, it gets some interest going in high quality routes which might be getting a bit neglected.
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
Yes it is good to get a debate and receive opinions, but we do seem to be starting to round in circles. With elements like 'chopper' at large how can concensus count for anything?
I still think CRR would be bloody amazing with half a dozen resin anchors in it, and wouldn't make it any more accessible than it was before.
I went to malham last sunday and saw a bloke with two (yes TWO) clip sticks tied to his harness whilst he dogged up a route. If you did that sort of thing in France you'd get laughed off the crag, and rightly so. Make the gear reliable but make sure you have to be able to climb to get up it, and we might end up with some half decent sport routes, and sport climbers. Pah!
Yes it is good to get a debate and receive opinions, but we do seem to be starting to round in circles. With elements like 'chopper' at large how can concensus count for anything?
I still think CRR would be bloody amazing with half a dozen resin anchors in it, and wouldn't make it any more accessible than it was before.
I went to malham last sunday and saw a bloke with two (yes TWO) clip sticks tied to his harness whilst he dogged up a route. If you did that sort of thing in France you'd get laughed off the crag, and rightly so. Make the gear reliable but make sure you have to be able to climb to get up it, and we might end up with some half decent sport routes, and sport climbers. Pah!
In reply to whispering nic:
What's wrong with stick clips, and yes EVEN TWO....
If someone wants to use them, who are YOU to complain?
Of course they won't be as MANLY or as HARD as YOU....but I'm sure you will be able to live with that, and everyone else for that matter....
Some STICK CLIPS are HUMAN and they can be called ROPEGUNS....or even FRIENDS...
...can you see what I'm getting at and where I'm coming from or are we to expect the typical KNEE-JERK reaction...
THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX please
cheers,
Mick
What's wrong with stick clips, and yes EVEN TWO....
If someone wants to use them, who are YOU to complain?
Of course they won't be as MANLY or as HARD as YOU....but I'm sure you will be able to live with that, and everyone else for that matter....
Some STICK CLIPS are HUMAN and they can be called ROPEGUNS....or even FRIENDS...
...can you see what I'm getting at and where I'm coming from or are we to expect the typical KNEE-JERK reaction...
THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX please
cheers,
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Which particular box are you referring to?
Perhaps I expressed myself poorly on my return from the hostelry in which I had passed some of the evening.
I would not claim to be manly (other than being a man, or possibly overgrown boy) and certainly not 'hard'.
But... having climbed for quite a while on the continent and in the UK, I do get dismayed at the culture in UK climbing which, fixated with means of protection rather than moving over rock, seems to engender a situation where people do panic and suffer knee jerk reactions, both on the rock and in discussion of ethics and practice.
I do think stick clips have a useful function in preventing buggered ankles and the like, but I'm afraid that setting off up a well bolted route with two long metal poles strapped to your waist is both laughable and potentially extremely dangerous.
I'm not going to get trapped into any arguments about the fact that it would have been much easier for them to walk round to the sumptuous ledge above, and fix a rope and all the 'draws either. I can understand the desire to climb from the ground up, but I would suggest that this would be perfectly feasible if the climber were to;
- stick clip from the deck
- relax
- be prepared to take short falls onto good gear if the climbing is of a level that he/she is unable to climb it at a first attempt (i know lots of girls that fall off as well as boys)
- consolidate grades
There you go. As for who I am to complain, I'm a contributor to a public forum and I'm offering a mixture of opinion and some reflection on how our climbing culture might constrain the enjoyment and development of participants in an activity that I like very very much.
And I haven't even used any capital letters to shout back at you. Need to go and tie my knee down now, it keeps smacking me in the jaw.
Nic
P.s. wot's a rope gun?
Which particular box are you referring to?
Perhaps I expressed myself poorly on my return from the hostelry in which I had passed some of the evening.
I would not claim to be manly (other than being a man, or possibly overgrown boy) and certainly not 'hard'.
But... having climbed for quite a while on the continent and in the UK, I do get dismayed at the culture in UK climbing which, fixated with means of protection rather than moving over rock, seems to engender a situation where people do panic and suffer knee jerk reactions, both on the rock and in discussion of ethics and practice.
I do think stick clips have a useful function in preventing buggered ankles and the like, but I'm afraid that setting off up a well bolted route with two long metal poles strapped to your waist is both laughable and potentially extremely dangerous.
I'm not going to get trapped into any arguments about the fact that it would have been much easier for them to walk round to the sumptuous ledge above, and fix a rope and all the 'draws either. I can understand the desire to climb from the ground up, but I would suggest that this would be perfectly feasible if the climber were to;
- stick clip from the deck
- relax
- be prepared to take short falls onto good gear if the climbing is of a level that he/she is unable to climb it at a first attempt (i know lots of girls that fall off as well as boys)
- consolidate grades
There you go. As for who I am to complain, I'm a contributor to a public forum and I'm offering a mixture of opinion and some reflection on how our climbing culture might constrain the enjoyment and development of participants in an activity that I like very very much.
And I haven't even used any capital letters to shout back at you. Need to go and tie my knee down now, it keeps smacking me in the jaw.
Nic
P.s. wot's a rope gun?
In reply to davehinton:
My name is joe le sage, and am in the catergory of somebody with aspirations to on-sight CRR this year. it's a big ambition of mine ever since i first saw it years ago. if it was totally retrobolted i would definitely cry. what's the point of having big reputation routes to keep you psyched through the winter months if they then get 15 bolts put in them .i'd be in favour of a few bolts to replace the rotting pegs, so the route is similar to its original state. There needs to be routes that you look at and leave and build up to. What is important is keeping the emphasis in british climbing on the on-sight, and that means not having all the best routes available for anybody just to jump on and dog to the top. anyway, great work on the re-bolting that's going on, i'll put my cheque in the post.
My name is joe le sage, and am in the catergory of somebody with aspirations to on-sight CRR this year. it's a big ambition of mine ever since i first saw it years ago. if it was totally retrobolted i would definitely cry. what's the point of having big reputation routes to keep you psyched through the winter months if they then get 15 bolts put in them .i'd be in favour of a few bolts to replace the rotting pegs, so the route is similar to its original state. There needs to be routes that you look at and leave and build up to. What is important is keeping the emphasis in british climbing on the on-sight, and that means not having all the best routes available for anybody just to jump on and dog to the top. anyway, great work on the re-bolting that's going on, i'll put my cheque in the post.
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Mick is correct in saying this - surely a pragmatic approach along the lines of:
replacing anything that is currently fixed gear i.e pegs, tat and old bolts with new bolts, except where one or more are close together, and in a similar position to where they currently are...
would maintain the character of the route and remove unsightly pegs and tat - unless of course the consensus of opinion is to completely bolt it up - which I hope turns out not to be the case
Mark
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> I'm not sure about this consensus thing....it's almost impossible to get a concensus on any climbing issue...
>
>
> I'm not sure about this consensus thing....it's almost impossible to get a concensus on any climbing issue...
>
Mick is correct in saying this - surely a pragmatic approach along the lines of:
replacing anything that is currently fixed gear i.e pegs, tat and old bolts with new bolts, except where one or more are close together, and in a similar position to where they currently are...
would maintain the character of the route and remove unsightly pegs and tat - unless of course the consensus of opinion is to completely bolt it up - which I hope turns out not to be the case
Mark
In reply to Mick Johnston:
Thanks for pulling this together Mick. I just got back from a brilliant week in Wales on The International Meet and apart from a couple Chinese Climbers no one clipped a bolt all week (but that's worth another story).
Despite all the chat there were only another two cheques through the door by this morning but its a start. (about £125 in total now).
Just to get things straight with the original concept of the bolt fund it was basically to replace old bolts on existing sport routes and ensure safe belays and lower-offs were provided where previously we had relied on dodgy slings and pegs. Inevitably some old pegs and slings were replaced on odd routes that were in that border-line category between trad and sport such as Yosemite Wall. No one, as far as I recall has offered any serious reservations about the judgement we have exercised up to now and I don't see any reason to fear a wholesale retro-bolting campaign starting now. The diversity of Yorkshire Limestone climbing is special and will be preserved.
However, lets remember that the sport is contantly evolving and routes like Cave Route started life as total clip up in the 1950s (from the left hand start) the right hand start was added later and then Pete Livesy reduced the aid considerably before Ron's first free ascent. When those early free ascents were made there was a lot more fixed gear than there is now. Whatever is decided with this route I'm sure that it will still be one of the best lines in Yorkshire.
Dave
Thanks for pulling this together Mick. I just got back from a brilliant week in Wales on The International Meet and apart from a couple Chinese Climbers no one clipped a bolt all week (but that's worth another story).
Despite all the chat there were only another two cheques through the door by this morning but its a start. (about £125 in total now).
Just to get things straight with the original concept of the bolt fund it was basically to replace old bolts on existing sport routes and ensure safe belays and lower-offs were provided where previously we had relied on dodgy slings and pegs. Inevitably some old pegs and slings were replaced on odd routes that were in that border-line category between trad and sport such as Yosemite Wall. No one, as far as I recall has offered any serious reservations about the judgement we have exercised up to now and I don't see any reason to fear a wholesale retro-bolting campaign starting now. The diversity of Yorkshire Limestone climbing is special and will be preserved.
However, lets remember that the sport is contantly evolving and routes like Cave Route started life as total clip up in the 1950s (from the left hand start) the right hand start was added later and then Pete Livesy reduced the aid considerably before Ron's first free ascent. When those early free ascents were made there was a lot more fixed gear than there is now. Whatever is decided with this route I'm sure that it will still be one of the best lines in Yorkshire.
Dave
In reply to Dave Musgrove:
"Despite all the chat there were only another two cheques through the door by this morning but its a start. (about £125 in total now). "
As I told you before Dave " you won't". The most effective ways are:
1. Go around with a hat (at the crag and at the pub)
2. Have regular "Bolt Fund" benefits - a good venue being a climbing wall.
Chat is good and raises awareness of the issues and prepares people to dig -deep when you are being pro-active as regards fund raising is the only way.
A standing order subscription might be another "route".
I know this because I share an office with the American Safe Climbing Ass: perhaps the most organized bolt re-equipping outfit there is. They have similar problems as regard raising funds.
Mick
"Despite all the chat there were only another two cheques through the door by this morning but its a start. (about £125 in total now). "
As I told you before Dave " you won't". The most effective ways are:
1. Go around with a hat (at the crag and at the pub)
2. Have regular "Bolt Fund" benefits - a good venue being a climbing wall.
Chat is good and raises awareness of the issues and prepares people to dig -deep when you are being pro-active as regards fund raising is the only way.
A standing order subscription might be another "route".
I know this because I share an office with the American Safe Climbing Ass: perhaps the most organized bolt re-equipping outfit there is. They have similar problems as regard raising funds.
Mick
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: Stick clips embarrasse me .
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Mick
I don't know whether you want to join in the debate tomorrow, cos there was a PC in the bar at the Listers.I think it was a bit expensive but maybe Mick can raid the bolt fund to let you join in.
Hope the Timmy Taylors Landlord is coming out of the fund as well.
see you
Mick
I don't know whether you want to join in the debate tomorrow, cos there was a PC in the bar at the Listers.I think it was a bit expensive but maybe Mick can raid the bolt fund to let you join in.
Hope the Timmy Taylors Landlord is coming out of the fund as well.
see you
In reply to Alan Firth: You re bolt a route Al and I'll get the ale in .
In reply to Mick Johnston:
>(In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA) Stick clips embarrasse me.
Having taken a good friend to hospital (where he remained in intensive care for several days) after he failed to clip the first bolt of a route in Spain - they certainly don't embarass me any more.
Mark
>(In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA) Stick clips embarrasse me.
Having taken a good friend to hospital (where he remained in intensive care for several days) after he failed to clip the first bolt of a route in Spain - they certainly don't embarass me any more.
Mark
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I got five runners in one climb then peeled off. They all pulled. I was in hospital for a week.
Still got the pins in my ankles.
I learnt to put runners in properly after that.
But I'm not sure what this has got to do with clip sticks.
Tell you what: let's grid-bolt every single cliff, and layer mattresses on the floor. Oh and let's make all the holds bigger.
Stick clips? I would be embarressed to use one - but each to their own.
M
I got five runners in one climb then peeled off. They all pulled. I was in hospital for a week.
Still got the pins in my ankles.
I learnt to put runners in properly after that.
But I'm not sure what this has got to do with clip sticks.
Tell you what: let's grid-bolt every single cliff, and layer mattresses on the floor. Oh and let's make all the holds bigger.
Stick clips? I would be embarressed to use one - but each to their own.
M
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: I use a stick clip and i am proud of it. I only use it to make a safe enviroment ie sport climbing, safer. I certainly dont want to be the next unlucky sod to slip clipping a first bolt at malham and fall off the ledge!!!!! Its well hard putting wires in with sticks especially on a long run out. Dont you use a sort of stick on Profit of Doom at Curbar to place the wire before the crux?
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
If a route is badly bolted - eg 1st bolt 7 metres and no gear (or not carrying any, since sport climbing) out of the three choices:
1 Climb it anyway
2 Use a stick clip to avoid large ground fall
3 Walk away
I feel all are perfectly legitimate - and I've done all 3 at various times. To argue that the option of stick clipping a high/dangerous 1st bolt it is somehow unethical doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
However, I've never carried a stick clip on route and probably never will. I normally don't mind the risk of falling or long(ish) runouts - but ground falls scare me lots.
Mark
If a route is badly bolted - eg 1st bolt 7 metres and no gear (or not carrying any, since sport climbing) out of the three choices:
1 Climb it anyway
2 Use a stick clip to avoid large ground fall
3 Walk away
I feel all are perfectly legitimate - and I've done all 3 at various times. To argue that the option of stick clipping a high/dangerous 1st bolt it is somehow unethical doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
However, I've never carried a stick clip on route and probably never will. I normally don't mind the risk of falling or long(ish) runouts - but ground falls scare me lots.
Mark
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