UKC

Has adding a grid ref been considered at all for crag locations?
 

2nd this request, it seems like a really obvious omission.

The decimal degrees system is the de facto standard internationally so we stick with that.
 

(You might also be surprised by the amount of work involved to make all objects with a location in the app allow you to copy the OS grid ref if they have one.) 
 

Because only a limited number of users need this (sorry you fall into that camp), and because it's easy enough to convert a coordinate in DD to OS grid refs or any other system online, we don't provide that functionality ourselves.

Many thanks for the great reply.

I am comfortable to convert to OS, that's not a problem

Can you show where the reference is on the Craig listings then please because I'm unable to see it.

Are you sure about this? Lots of climbers use OS maps and therefore grid refs and they are provided as standard in many guidebooks. 

Don't have a clue how to use decimal degrees, and certainly not how the translate them to an OS map in my head. It may be the defacto standard internationally but in the UK we have a country wide world standard grid mapping system.

How?

And if it's that easy why not provide both?

As another anecdote, I can't remember the last time I used an OS grid ref but I do use decimal degrees the whole time.

Yes, I think the omission of something as basic and standard as a grid reference is extraordinary.

https://gridreferencefinder.com/

I don't think I've ever used degrees when in the outdoors.

When you think about it from an app usage perspective I don't think it's that surprising. Grid references only work in the UK and mean you need the correct OS map. If you have decimal degrees they work anywhere in the world and can be plugged in to any online map to get a location.

I always have the correct OS map. Why not give both?

That's reliant on having a digital device and internet signal - things many of us things many of us try to leave behind when escaping to the great outdoors.

I think there's going to be a split on who uses what based on where they climb. Those climbing in accessible places probably find a decimal adequate, those climbing at more remote crags probably prefer a GR as they tend to plan using OS maps.

I'm not denying that they're used by some people, but they're not provided in any rockfax book, where we only provide decimal degrees.

To include grid refs in the app we'd have to include a third-party library that can translate from decimal degrees to grid refs (a different library for each platform), and this isn't something I want to do. Including third-party code in a long-running project like the rockfax app is fraught with issues so it's only done when we feel it's absolutely necessary. In this instance I feel it's not because any user that wants a grid ref can copy the DD coordinate and paste it into an online translator.

Couldn't they easily just be typed in by hand by crag moderators for each UK crag?

You could do, but it'd be pretty error prone. There's thousands of crags in the UKC database so plenty of room for typos. And then what happens if someone updates the decimal degrees but not the grid ref? Which one is canonical?

That is quite defeatist though.

Someone entered all the DD data.

What if that's wrong?

There is clearly a number of requests, let's find solutions, not problems 

What's your use case? As I understand it the discussion is about including grid refs in the UKC database and/or the apps in which case you're going to be looking at a digital device to get at the info in the first place, so getting access to a grid reference look up at the same time doesn't seem too onerous. Alternatively you could cross reference the maps included in the app with your paper map to work out where the crag is.

I agree that grid refs would be a nice feature, but there's plenty of ways of using the app without them.

Hi Jenny,

On the android app you can navigate to a buttress on a crag view by clicking on a topo. Once in the topo, click on the “i” button in the top right which should take you to the buttress info view. From here scroll down to the bottom and click on “Copy coords to clipboard” (currently there is no feedback after clicking this but it will be copied)
 

You can then paste these coords into an online converter. 

Thanks

Why the heck not? 

I can just about see your argument for an app where people will already have a digital device with them, but with a paper book do a proper job and in UK guides use the national standard system of OS Grid References.

Also let's take an MR situation, grid refs are usually just eight characters - far far more chance of me miss-relaying a complicated cordinate when stressed out and calling for urgent help.

- next you'll be swapping over to W3W

I can categorically state: This will never happen!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rockfax/what3words-708813

In 20 years of fairly fervent rock climbing I don't think I've ever used a map or OS grid reference to approach/access a crag. I suspect this is the same for around 99% of climbers throughout the UK - potentially more. A guidebook description, coupled with the in-guide map, has always been enough.

Scottish Winter is another matter, but even then - if I have a map to hand (which I always do in winter) it's not like I need a grid reference from the guidebook, because the crag's location is right there in front of me. If you don't have the map reading skills to ascertain this information, then a grid reference in a guidebook isn't going to help you much, as you probably won't know what to do with it even if you had it.

This in fact has been another user request that we've said no to for the same reasons (and others).
 

I can see that this topic is near to your heart, and I'm sorry that we won't be implementing it, but we've weighed the pros and cons and decided against it. Users that need a grid ref can copy the provided coordinate and paste it into an online translator. 
 

Rockfax books have never provided grid refs as far as I'm aware, and it's not been a problem so far. It's easy to get these yourself if you want them, but quite a burden for us to provide, so our limited resources are spent elsewhere. 

OS grid refs are the official geolocation system for UK land.  It is the position format preferred (and to some degree expected) by MR.

It is the position system regularly taught in the UK.

Not to continue to give them (they always were given in hard copy guides) is an extraordinary approach for anyone involved in a climbing guidebook.  

A grid ref is a far simpler coordinate (and as mentioned above is the expected format) to give when somebody is calling for help.

You are completely wrong by your omission, I don’t know how any climber in the UK could even contemplate not using!

I have used grid references in many countries and remember IGN sticking grids on their 1:25k maps to enable their use with gps devices. 
There is an international standard for grid references

No grs in a climbing guide is priceless

Good, let's stamp over regional needs and culture and internationally standardize everything. There's some sick climbs on grit that haven't been bolted yet, hopefully you can get that fixed for us too? Next.. rename ukclimbing.com to a less UK centric name

Couldn't the same be said of lat/long in degrees? Why give one and not the other?

To be fair, I'd never noticed UKC not giving grid references before (I only really use the logbooks as a resource before or after going climbing and hardly ever as a guidebook), so I suppose it doesn't actually affect me - I was just surprised at the omission of something which seems so standard.

As DaveHK said, using grid references to locate crags is probably more common in remoter places - I've certainly used them to locate sea cliffs and small inland buttresses in the north recently.

If you have an accident on a route, what information do you think Mountain Rescue want to know - a grid reference or the name of the crag/route that you're on?

Answers on the back of a postcard...

Not having have OS grid references is not a problem. 

Those saying "I don't think I've ever used degrees when in the outdoors." @RobertDurran ... I literally cannot believe.  What they are really saying there is "I have never pulled out my cell phone and loaded any mapping app in the outdoors ever in my life" .... everyone with a phone has done that ... my grand parents have done that.  Lat & Long are pervasive in our lives ... we just don't realize that we're using them constantly.  

In the interest of using facts.  

• Accuracy of 6 figure OS Grid Reference:  ~100m x ~100m box on the ground.
• Accuracy of 4 digit latitude longitude reference:  ~11m x ~11m box on the ground.

Why would people not want a more accurate, internationally recognized, convertible reference???

In the interest of time ... I took the google map reference from UKC Crag map for Dumby - https://maps.google.com/?q=55.9375,-4.5646 - and pasted it into GridReferenceFinder - https://gridreferencefinder.com/#gr=NS3990774576|55.9375_s__c__s_-4.5646|1,...  .... it took 30s maybe.  

Have you got a link that explains this international standard for grid references? As far as I can tell there are many grid reference systems in use around the world with little to no compatibility between countries. It looks like there is a NATO grid reference system that covers the world but I don't think it gets a lot of civilian usage...

Sorry Rob I’m having a bad morning so am moderating my language; let’s look at this~ within a short space of time that this post has been live you have both extremely experienced climbers, and members of MRT telling you that the omission is wrong…..time to wake up and get off that horse.

With regard to what information MRT want; they want both if possible and you know that!

But before that the call has to get through the control room caller handler whom has a protocol which includes getting a grid ref if they can, before passing on to MRT… and you know that as well!

As someone that climbs as much as you do, the fact you hadn't noticed, and the fact it hasn't affected you, says to me a lot about their perceived usefulness vs. the actual usefulness, which is to say that they're not actually all that useful. 

As an anecdote I used OS grid all the time including a dozen times last week and converting is a PITA especially if you are off-grid. Those handy km grid lines on OS maps are really useful.

Well it's true. 

Yes, correct. I use paper maps.

I have a phone, so you are wrong.

The accuracy of w3w is 3m x 3m.

I don't really have much requirement for outdoor navigation so am talking purely from personal experience, but I much prefer w3w to any other form of location recording. For example (and one I've used a number of times), if you're in the middle of a heavily wooded area with no discernible landmarks to set triangulate against, I can in a few seconds use w3w to accurately record my position. I really rate it and regularly use it to share locations with friends. The accepted downside is of course you need GPS functionality rather than just looking at a physical map.

FWIW my phone gives me both OS grid and long,lat. 

If I'm using a real map in the UK then the OS grid wins hands down.

Your 30s on-line is a major faff in most of my planning and navigating scenarios.

The argument that it is too difficult to do for UKC is really bogus - I can understand it's a one time PITA to find the library and code it up but I suspect that before this thread is finished the coding could have been long done and out the way. 

Oh, look at that, in less than 30s of googling I found several libraries that can do it.

Respectfully Robert .. I do not believe you .. but as it is your lived experience I am forced to concede that perhaps you are part of the 0.01% of smart phone users who have never used Google maps, apple maps, what3words, komoot, strava, gaiaGPS, openstreetmap, ViewRanger etc etc outside of your own home.

Ironically .. I just googled "How does OS Locate App work" i.e the app from Ordnance Survey that gives you your 6 grid reference on your phone.  [1]

ANS:  "The app works by converting GPS location readings from your mobile phone to National Grid references, which means it works even when you don't have a mobile phone signal. Simply download the app and ensure the location services are enabled."

Even OS use latitude and longitude.

[1]  https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/guides/oslocate/#:~:text=How%20it%2....

Not to me because, as I said, I don't use UKC/Rockfax as a guidebook. I suspect that those that do so also use online mapping stuff so don't need GR's. But those of us who use paper guides and maps definitely do in some areas (as I said, I have done so recently). 

So I concede that they might be of limited use on UKC. I still think they should be there though!

I have used google maps, but never in the outdoors (just to find places I am driving to).

I found this for you gravy ... http://jhnet.co.uk/articles/os_coord  Perhaps you would be willing to offer up your services to UKC to code it up and provide free maintain support for it going forward??? 

For reference ... the issue isn't that it cannot be coded - it can.  The issue with 3rd party libraries is that:

1. They need maintenance .. and if you give your library away for free - then you need to work for free to maintain the library.  If you're happy maintaining software for free ... more power to you.  
2. If you're using a 3rd party library in your code .. then you need to know what's in it.  If a vulnerability suddenly appears in their library then either you are reliant upon them patching it ASAP .. or your kick their library out your build and disable the feature.  The point about not wanting 3rd party libraries in your code .. is that without them you know never have to kill a feature because you are never dependent on someone else to maintain their code in order for your app/site to run securely. 

You can also paste them into the OS app and find the crag on OS mapping if you are an OS subscriber/user. Of course this relies on you to having a phone signal and the OS app not being on one of its funny days, which at least in my phone, seems to be quite often!

Maybe there's differences in styles, but I have to say I am amazed at the resistance to OS grid refs. I use them a lot for mapping crags and boulders against an OS map (especially in obscure areas). Makes perfect sense for the UK but each to their own.

After all,  this is UK Climbing,  so the primary navigation system in the UK. should be the default.

 

Two summers ago I had to call for mountain rescue for the first time in over 30 years of active climbing and hillwalking. I had witnessed an accident on Stanage. I was quite surprised by the call handler seeming quite confused and having no idea about where I was describing or really what was happening. I totally understand that the 999 call centres can be a long way from where you call from although from memory the woman I spoke to had a S York's accent. Anyway I gave her buttress and nearby route location as I knew the MRT would know exactly where we were. She clearly relayed all that info on accurately and rapidly because Edale MRT wonderfully popped out of the bracken forest below the crag incredibly fast and converged on the accident site perfectly. I could have given an OS grid ref, but was never asked for one. If it was somewhere remote in the Highlands or even Snowdonia, obviously a grid ref makes a lot sense, or for a MTB crash or walker hurting their ankle, but for climbers climbing? Isn't saying there is saying someone is cragfast on the second pitch of Main Wall, Cyrn Las, more helpful to Llanberis MRT than a grid ref to the crag?

53.47895-1.56101

or

SK292980

Not many places where accuracy to more than 100m is needed, but you could go up to 10 figures (12 characters) if accuracy is needed to the nearest 1m. 

(Oh and on a separate note, why didn't Rockfax show the River on the map I'm currently looking at? Kind of a key feature when you're in the bottom of a valley)

EDIT 

Also just put those coordinates through the converter linked above and got given a grid reference of TB363039. That's Kent, not where I'd normally go looking for Eastern Gritstone.

Obviously the MR would prefer the crag/route, but if not on a crag a GR would be needed 

The only time I have had to call out MR (due to an asthma attack from a remote campsite with a D of E group), I gave GR and verbal location and description. Once all was well and the helicopter which eventually came was about to leave with the patient, the paramedic told me that I had done everything right and they had found us fine, but that I should consider such and such location system for the future. Unfortunately, I suppose in my relief that after a very stressful evening nobody was dead, I failed to take a mental note and now have no idea what it was!

The precision of lat long works the same as grid ref, so 3 decimal places would be sufficient to give an area for a rescue hence giving you a similar amount of figures to quote. 

Less prone to user error too -it’s easy to make small mistakes when  manual map reading, and if you are one number off on the 3rd/6th digit you are at least 100 m out. With a GNSS location (+- 3m usually) from a phone it’s likely to be much better. Any software that’s giving you an OSGB ref is converting in the background.

The OS grid was a great thing - but is now, IMO, pretty much obsolete with tech being the way it is.

This is clearly nonsense and will continue to be so until the OS start using a grid scaled in lat/long on their maps rather than the currently used GR.

???

tell that to all the people taking their ML training
to all the MCI's
to MRT who carry maps as well as tech

 

From years of experience of dealing at first hand with literally hundreds of rescues, a six figure OS grid reference is the ideal locator. Crag names used by climbers are frequently different to those used by locals and there are multiple examples of rescue teams going to the wrong venues. For example  how Raven Crags are there in the Lake District?  Also, a 999 emergency call can literally go to any of the 999 call centres in the UK -try telling a 999 call centre in Dundee that you are on Craig Pensych in a remote welsh valley and it won't necessarily help speed your rescue. Give a six figure os grid, and it ateady means your call will at least be directed to the relevant police or coastguard service for that region. 

As mentioned, as climbers  we also tend to use or invent our own names for many crags. A real example....a few years ago a friend had a nasty accident at Craig Dorys on the Lleyn  and the climbing partner called the coastguard and explained where they were. The coastguard had no idea, as Craig Dorys is a totally made up name by climbers and not found on any OS maps or through local knowledge. The proper name is Craig Llech y Doll. The lack of a six figure grid reference in the guidebook used by those involved and poor signal  delayed the rescue (a serious head injury) by well over an hour with an incoming tide. It was very close run thing in the end.....

Ground Up guidebooks changed this policy for all subsequent guidebooks and CC guidebooks also adopt OS grid references for the same reason. It literally is a lifesaver and makes a difference. 

Friend works in the SYP call centre and W3W is their preferred system. I have reluctantly installed it on my phone and you can get it to also display a Grid Ref alongside the random words.

Trouble is it's all about technology, where as a grid reference needs no techy know how and simply works on any UK paper map. Even if you get it sightly wrong, you will be in the same ball part area and (as happened when I called out MR) they can easily give you a landmark/placename to cross reference that the reference is correct. 

And I think there may be  generational thing; I know very few people who use mapping apps and gps in the hills (or at least who would admit to it!). 

See Elfyn post above.

I know of several incidents where the initial caller tried the ‘describe location approach’ for the caller handler not to accept, and then to go down the can you give a postcode, then what settlement, then what road is it near …..protocols.

When going to a Crag and you’re not bothering to take a map, you used to know that if the worst happened you had the grid from the guidebook if needed. Yes most phones can do that now, but there is easier if it’s written in front of you to relay.

Though you have to trust guidebook writer has got it right!

Users don't use a function you don't provide? I'm shocked!

I quite often use the grid reference found in the definitive guide to find the crag on the paper map when planning where to go.  

Out of interest, I just had a go at getting a lat/lon on my phone using google maps in aeroplane mode (i.e. with no signal) and it works fine. If you've got the rockfax app/UKC open you've presumably got your phone in hand, so could get a lat/lon that describes exactly where you are.

???

http://gridreferencefinder.com/index.php?lt=53.47895&lg=-1.56101

Resolves to SK 29232 98115 ... Deepcar/Stockbridge.

You'll need to give more information.  iOS or Andriod?  What river?  Can you share a pin and/or screen shot pls.  

River Don

Maybe I miss-used the converter - not deliberate, but just shows they aren't failsafe.

Grid reference I did by eye off the OS map as you say Deepcarr/Stockbridge in North Sheffield, parking for Wharncliffe Crags

Edit - I must be misunderstanding how to use those coordinates as they put me in the English channel 🤷

iOS Rockfax app uses Apple Maps as the base map ... the River Don is shown if you zoom in enough .. I am looking at it now with Rockfax app on iPhone.  Features will disappear from the map as you zoom out.  

I'm looking at a paper guidebook, definatly no river just the railway and roads marked.

Oh … can’t help you there. (More reason to use the app … so that you get the latest and greatest maps?)

I love paper books. The look and feel of them, you can't browse an app by laying it out next to guides and maps on the floor to plan your day with other people.

Also I prefer to keep my phone somewhere safe and dry when out on the hill. Both because it's expensive to break and because I enjoy the process of navigating for myself, rather than just following a blue line in the screen.

I think I'm going to go and add a grid ref to the info on the crags I moderate on here. It does seem having a definitive, understood and age old locator at hand is a good thing. See it when you're researching your day out, scribble it down, save it as a note on your phone, whatever.. it's another layer of redundancy. Which seems ironic as it's all (trad!) climbers ever go on about when it comes to safety  

Perhaps this is a rare opportunity for some analog user generated content?? Maybe grab a blue pen and draw it in for next time??

I jest … I hear you on the book love. 

Yes good idea actually as with local areas I know well I might not always have a map with me. OK carpark location is limited help to MR if I'm at the crag, but it's a start and helps to narrow down the search area or even just ensure the best local team are mobilised.

In case anyone from Northern Ireland is reading: do not trust Grid Reference Finder in Northern Ireland (assuming they haven't fixed it in the last few months).

We used to have a client who relied on it for site addresses in Northern Ireland, mostly for sites around Belfast.

Some of the results were accurate, some were off by up to a mile in either direction, some incorrectly put the location in mainland Britain, and a small number put the location in the Pacific Ocean!

User error was ruled out as the cause of the errors. Despite the numerous errors, our client refused to switch to using an accurate converter.

Nearby.org.uk avoids these errors, albeit the UI isn't great if you are trying to obtain OS refs or NGR. The UI is much better going in the other direction.

If anyone knows who the mod for the Wharncliffe crags is

this may help

prow rock. 53.476898193359375,-1.5560400485992432 SK 29563 97888

Scarlett wall. 53.476661682128906,-1.55594003200531 SK 29570 97862

Tensile test. 53.47629928588867,-1.5557600259780884 SK 29582 97821

Photo finish. 53.475868225097656,-1.5556999444961548 SK 29586 97773

Cheese block. 53.4757194519043,-1.5556700229644775 SK 29588 97757

Petes sake. 53.47502899169922,-1.5554800033569336 SK 29601 97680

Great buttress. 53.47483825683594,-1.5553699731826782 SK 29609 97659

Putrell progress. 53.474281311035156,-1.5548399686813354 SK 29644 97597

Twin pillars. 53.47414016723633,-1.5546799898147583 SK 29655 97582

Blue defile. 53.47404098510742,-1.5545599460601807 SK 29663 97571

Himmswillen. 53.473838806152344,-1.5544099807739258 SK 29673 97548

Hell's gate. 53.47365188598633,-1.5542700290679932 SK 29682 97527.

Long John's stride. 53.4698486328125,-1.5463800430297852 SK 30209 97108

Far south. 53.4686393737793,-1.5444899797439575 SK 30335 96974

thats so cool.  thanks

i just added a post for whoever the Wharncliffe Crags mod is.

Looks like the UKC bods have been hard at work today!

ooo. nice.

How is that accessed by us mortals? (i notice an admin link)

If my initial question prompted this, then many many thanks to whoever has implemented it.

Also, does the grid ref. refer to an individual point on the crag?  or does clicking on an area. list the ref for that area,  for eg,  if i click on "Cheese Block". does it then give the GR. for the Cheese Block?  or just agenereric Wharncliffe crags area?

Should just appear on the maps tab, you might need to clear your cache? No idea on the details of how it's been implemented so just speculating, but I guess there's either a crag location field they're using or they're taking an average of buttress locations. Looks to be UK only which makes sense.