UKC

Looking to buy my first set of friends and have been recommended different things by different people. Thinking either DMM as they are made in the UK, or Black Diamond but have heard that the Totems are more versatile as each friend will have a greater variation in placement size. But they are also more expensive. Are the Totems worth the extra or would I be equally happy with the others?

This is coming from someone who has only ever climbed indoors and has never owned or placed a friend before so I don't have any experience with the different brands outside in the real world. I will be mostly climbing on gritstone since it's bikeable from Manchester. Would I also need to look at a set of micro friends or do you think I would be okay with a standard set for now?

Cheers, Pete.

In reply to Petermorris:

All those brands are good. DMM are very similar to black diamond. Some prefer the extendable sling of DMM. I don't like the annoying plastic covering on the sewn bit of DMM, so I've gone for wild country in the past, but that's not a great idea since Brexit. Go into a shop and talk to an expert about it.

This may be a good reason for ruling out the totems: as a beginner, you are more likely to get her them stuck. This is very frustrating, but would be even more so if they cost totem prices. They aren't specialist kit, but they are special. Maybe your second set will be totems?

I really don't think you should get the micros yet. They often don't work on grit as the cracks are not in uniform width. Nuts (wires) are the first port of call. I have climbed mainly on grit for 20 years and I don't use my or partners' micros on 90% + of routes. 

Cake

In reply to Petermorris:

It would be more correct to refer to them as cams.  Friends are actually a specific brand name. Pedantic I know and you are not alone in using this nomenclature.

Al

In reply to Petermorris:

Choose whichever ones are on offer, all work fine with minor differences between them. 

Personally prefer ones with a thumb loop so would sway towards wild country or black diamond. Wild country ones have an extendable sling, black diamonds dont

Dmm ones are very good and have an extendable sling if thats your thing 

In reply to Cake:

Thanks, yes I have a full set of DMM nuts.

In reply to Petermorris:

Totems are amazing and worth the extra if you can afford them. So flexible and have a great range on each cam. They don't go up to a particularly big size though so you would probably still want to buy a couple of bigger cams in for example DMM. (Big cams can be very useful in wide grit breaks.) As for micro cams, I tend to carry then only on harder leads on grit, maybe E1 or 2 upwards. So, if you are new to outdoor leading and therefore in the lower grades you probably don't need them for now. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss any further rack advice. 

In reply to Petermorris:

Just to make sure before you buy any cams, you are already covered for nuts... right? (Start nuts, cams later)

(I went for WC friends, for historical reasons, but if I started over I'd consider DMM cams, same with nuts)

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

You mean like 'Hoover' as in vacuum cleaner?

In reply to Petermorris:

Precisely. 😀

In reply to Petermorris:

All the ones you have listed will be good. Matter of personal preference in handling I would say. I quite like having a thumb loop as I don't like the "button" style stem. I tend to fumble them more easily. Try a few out and see what you like, but I don't think you will go very wrong here.

In reply to Cake: what’s the particular WC issue since Brexit out of interest. I bought a set of friends last year and looking to double up on some sizes so interesting to know if there’s a reason to avoid them  

(OP FYI I chose friends as I felt it was a best of both worlds between the DMMs and BDs with then having both the thumb loop and the extendable sling)

In reply to thread:

We've been had, again. Stand down. Don't waste your time. It's the antivax knobhead. Signup today, two climbing related threads then straight into it, as usual, and banned already.

In reply to Cake:

I'm wondering if this is just your experience of Totems, or if there's a specific reason? I would have guessed less chance than my Camelots because my Totems tend to walk less.

In reply to Petermorris:

I would recommend Friends with benefits 

Albert 

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Two climbing threads this time? He's putting more effort in then. I suspect if Peter actually had some friends he might not need to spend so much of his own time wasting other peoples time.

In reply to BattyMilk:

WC are now Italian owned and last time I looked, not doing re-slings (edit- for uk ) though say they will in the future.

Black Diamond will re-sling and return cams for free. you pay postage to Utah. It's not much.

DMM re-sling.

To the OP: I'd buy DMM. They are good, you can probably find a sale somewhere and build up a range without breaking the bank. I'd start with mid sizes on grit- green, red, gold. There are micro placements on grit, but they are not so common, I would leave this personally. Go down to rock 1 and have a double set of wires if you can. Good luck!

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I don't think that anyone is more likely to get totems stuck than other cams. I just mean that a beginner is more likely to get any cams stuck and if I went out and lost a £100 (ish) piece of kit in the rock first time, I would be pretty annoyed. That's his decision anyway.

Totems are excellent, though

In reply to BattyMilk:

Sorry, I'm a bit out of date. WC friends were really hard to get hold of for a while as they were coming from outside the EU, but I've had a quick look and my usual favourite shops seem to have them in stock.

However, as Mr Jonathan says above, they still don't repair even the slings, as DMM and Black Diamond do.

But, I'm going to contradict myself again, perhaps, and say that I will probably buy WC next time one needs replacing because I prefer them for exactly the same reasons you do .

In reply to Petermorris:

Kleenex

Durex

Google

Marmite

In reply to Moacs:

Is this is a checklist for a hot night in?

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

So, Totems?

Why has Pete re ever 7 dislikes just for asking which cans to buy? 

Seems a bit harsh lol

In reply to deacondeacon:

See post of 18.57

Because, like his other, ostensibly impeccable, post asking for help for an earnest newbie, it was a trojan for his short lived third post, which I managed to see,  and was a pretty full on anti vaxx bolloxx. The likes will be retro dislikes for the tactics, not signalling rage at a seemingly innocuous request for tips. Tips given freely and in good faith.

I was going to add my dislike but now, without this context, it makes us look like a pretty mean spirited bunch, where in fact the thread shows the very opposite is true.

In reply to Cake:

I picked up most of my totems for £61, keep an eye out for sales. They overlap with my smaller dragons, and I always reach for the totem over the DMM given the option. I'm sure they'll both hold a fall but there's something reassuring about the way totems place, they seem to just bite and hold right, first time, where dragons need a bit of faffing with to get set.

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Spring-loaded camming devices, surely ?

Not to be confused with tricams.

In reply to troybison:

Blimey someone even more pedantic than me

In reply to midgen:

That's bargain. I've got a black, but I'd love a blue to replace my old single-stem WC 0.

I can't see any for less than £81 ATM. 

In reply to BattyMilk:

There will be an issue from next year as manufacturers can't just CE test products to bring them into the UK. Instead they will have to pay test each product to the new British standard each year. As a consequence it will not be commercially viable to bring in items that do not sell in larger quantities, therefore they are reducing the number of product lines they bring into the UK. Good news for UK manufacturers but less choice and competition and likely price rises for consumers.

In reply to Petermorris:

I can recommend the Black Diamond cams for sure, thumb loop is great and they feel bomber. used them all year with no issues at all. I've used the DMM cams but found the extendable sling annoying and just got in the way, but is all personal preference as they work well. Can't comment much on the Totems as haven't used them, but from what I read the metal is softer than other brands so durability may not be as high but softer metal equals better bite into the rock. 

In reply to Petermorris:

Good thread this despite the nature of the OP. 

Totems are mint but less durable so depends how often you whip and in what rock type. They're far more likely to hold in a marginal placement especially on low friction/soft rock types like Lime. 

For what it's worth I think the following is the current ultimate cam setup: Dragons/Totems from size 0 to size 5, Dragonflys for the microcams, Wild Country micro offsets to buffer out the micro cam range and then BD C4 for the big boys because of the cam retention clips. 

Some will prefer the WC Friends rather than Dragons due to thumb loop etc but I actually like the Dragon stem because you're less likely to kick it out of a precise position when crack climbing.

In reply to Petermorris:

DMM definitely