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Recommendations for my first first fell race

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 rss91 22 Feb 2023

I want to get into it, just a beginner at the moment but would like to enter something for Spring time. Ideally, a bigger event for extra motivation!

I'm based in SE so realistically looking at Peak District, perhaps Snowdonia or Lake District.

In terms of course, I'd want something shorter like 10-15km but would welcome reasonable amount of vertical. To give an idea of my ability, I recently did 9.4km/434m in 1h45.

I've spent some time looking online but can't seem to find a central site which has a complete listing and not easy to filter down to exact requirements.

Hoping someone here will have some ideas?

Thanks!

In reply to rss91:

It's well worth joining the Fell Runners Association, as membership includes a handbook of fixtures for the year ahead. In addition to that you also receive the organisation's truly fantastic magazine - The Fell Runner - which is a thing of beauty, and (as if that weren't enough) you also get discount to a fair few races as a result of being a member.

That said, none of this actually answers your question...

Here's a few ones within the Peak that should fit the bill:

Wolf's Pit: https://braddadads.wordpress.com/wolfs-pit/
Burbage Skyline: https://www.facebook.com/burbageskyline
Totley Moor: https://www.totleyac.org.uk/totley-moor/

I'm down to do the Wolf's Pit, so if you do enter - see you there!

 compost 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

There's a fairly comprehensive list here: https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races

A spring race for a first one suggests a BM to me - not too extreme and a decent distance to justify the travel time! That leads to a recommendation for the Kinder Downfall which is a classic by any definition, will have a good sized field and is unlikely to leave you needing survival skills! 

edit: Link - https://www.t42.org.uk/hayfield/

Post edited at 13:25
 Levy_danny 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Hi 

I've not got a lot of experience in Wales and it depends what your strengths are. Check the fell runner website it's a lot better than it was a few years ago. I'd personally be aiming for a Cat BM fell race in the peak as my first fell race. But they suit my style as I quite like runnable courses. If you prefer hiking up steep ground then the lakes are probably more suited for you but I always find that when I'm going well in the peak races I still get my arse kicked in the lakes. Still have a great time though. 

Agreed on the downfall it's a mega route. 

OP rss91 22 Feb 2023
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Wolf's Pit looks ideal but sadly I'm away on that date!

Just a quick question on fell running (perhaps the wrong use of the term)- does it always involve route finding/rough ground etc. I suppose what I was looking for was tourist path type terrain, and possibly something which is even martialled so the only challenge is one of stamina.

Here is another I found:

https://trailevents.co/events/snowdonia-spring-crossing-2023/

But a rather extensive kit list was a bit off putting and didn't make it seem so beginner appropriate.

1
OP rss91 22 Feb 2023
In reply to Levy_danny:

I'd much prefer the steeper ground, but it seems like the shorter courses tend to be a bit flatter. I think just an up and down of one of the big LD peaks would really fit the bill.

 Levy_danny 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

If you want an up and down I would take a look at Pen Y Ghent fell race. It's cheap. Navigation is straightforward and the ground running down isn't too rough.  As discussed the downfall race is also straightforward navigation with much of it on paths with quite a steep ascent up williams clough. 

 steveriley 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Route finding - don't hold me to this but not generally ...unless you make the mistake of being at the front of the field. Longer events with a spread out field you'll want some nav confidence. Shorter events you may well just be following the person in front. Unless mist.

Rough ground - hopefully! Big spectrum here of good paths through to awful tussock wrangling and bog snorkelling. Some of the fun is choosing between good path/longer route and shorter route/rough ground.

Kinder was one of my first events and should have an 'event' feel. Same ballpark area is Mount Famine which I'll probably do. Packs the ascent in for the distance though. You'll like Burbage as a climber.

 Rory Shaw 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

To me fell running implies self reliance, so an ability to navigate, route find and stay safe on rough, trackless and unmarked ground in any weather. This is as much a skill of fell running as the running itself.

Some fell races have limited marked sections, some take in obvious paths and most have some sort of martial at check points.

You will have to carry the minimum kit in a bag or bum bag.

More recently there seems to have been a move for trail running events (proper marked trails) into the mountains... Which has its issues about how they are marked, martialed and how self sufficient participant are/should be.

Maybe something in the Peak would suit you better than a mountainous route in the lakes or Wales.

Good luck

 Rory Shaw 22 Feb 2023
In reply to Rory Shaw:

Martial should marshall... Perhaps subconsciously concerned about WW3

 compost 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

> Just a quick question on fell running (perhaps the wrong use of the term)- does it always involve route finding/rough ground etc. I suppose what I was looking for was tourist path type terrain, and possibly something which is even martialled so the only challenge is one of stamina.

- Not always but you do need to be self-sufficient in case something goes wrong and you need to get to safety quickly - you should be capable of route finding etc.

- What do you mean tourist-type path? The tourist path up Scafell Pike is a bouldery nightmare, the tourist path on Kinder is peaty and boggy, some tourist paths in the Peak are basically manmade pavements

- Most fell races with checkpoints have marshalls. If you mean drinks stations, this would tend to be trail races rather than fell races (and wouldn't get up big hills in the Lakes) There are loads of trail 10ks around.

> Here is another I found:

> But a rather extensive kit list was a bit off putting and didn't make it seem so beginner appropriate.

- That's a sensible kitlist for getting high in the mountains in potentially dangerous weather 

Post edited at 15:00
 deepsoup 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

> I'd much prefer the steeper ground, but it seems like the shorter courses tend to be a bit flatter.

Ha - come back and say that again after you've done the Wolfs Pit!

The listings at fellrunner.org that compost linked to above use a series of letters to break the races down into categories.  A, B, C are to do with how hilly/rough they are, S,M,L are length (short, medium, long).

It's explained here: https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/faq/frequently-asked-questions

If you're looking for a short distance hilly race, you'll be wanting more an AS than a BM as recommended by compost. The 'A' tells you it will be more hilly than a category 'B' race, the 'S' tells you it's a short race (<10km) instead of a medium one (10-20km).

You don't always need to navigate (you certainly wouldn't expect to have to stop and look at your map during the Wolfs Pit for example), but you should always be prepared to navigate if you see what I mean.  Some races are extremely well marshalled but even then it's your responsibility to get yourself round safely and make sure you find your way back to the finish, not theirs.

 The New NickB 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Fell running as opposed to train running often deviates off the well trodden paths, which is part of the fun. Lots need navigation skills, but plenty are marked as well.

I’m involved in the organisation of a couple of BM events in the South Pennines, which don’t require any navigation (although people still manage to get lost). Look at the FRA list it will have a key telling you if it requires navigation skills.

 timjones 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

If you are travelling from the SE then one of the South Wales races might be good, details of most of them can be found at fellrace.com.

Post edited at 17:15
 wbo2 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91: Shame it's nearly spring else I'd send you off to do some cross country, round a shortish marshalled course close to your home.  

When's the Boxhill Fell race? Others exist as well

 Mr Fuller 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

If you’re doing a Peak BM race then for most of them you will be on rough ground but you won’t be route finding as such or navigating. I’ve never used a map or compass in a fell race. Probably the best way to work out how rough the course will be is to look at the route map and see how much is on or off paths/bridleways/etc.. I’ve always found fell events to be very friendly, though sometimes very old-school/low key in their approach which might seem alien if you’re used to big sponsored events or triathlons for example.

 Philb1950 22 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

If the Peak is handy look out for the many village fell races. All very friendly and enter on the line. It helps to join a club further down the line, but not necessary. Our little cohort managed fine, winning 2 Karrimor Intl Mountain Marathons, 2nd in Derwent Watershed and one of us was the world 10k road running champion among other successes, but he ran for Sheffield Hallam in that event. I sometimes  trained and ran with Hallam and Dark Peak, but never joined. It’s also fantastic for weight control, climbing fitness, especially Alps and expeditions and just being out on the fells enjoying the scenery and revelling in the physical effort. Now I’m running crocked I really miss it, so enjoy.

 mountainbagger 22 Feb 2023
In reply to wbo2:

> Shame it's nearly spring else I'd send you off to do some cross country, round a shortish marshalled course close to your home.  

> When's the Boxhill Fell race? Others exist as well

https://slow.org.uk/events/boxhill2023/

 mountainbagger 22 Feb 2023
In reply to mountainbagger:

There's also the Knacker Cracker (also on Box Hill): https://www.trionium.com/knackercracker/

 Tom Briggs 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

I would recommend one of the classic ‘AMs’ in the Lakes. This year Fairfield Horseshoe is a championship race, so if you want a bigger event, that’s one to look at. You’ll literally be racing the best fell runners in the country.

My second ever fell race was Buttermere-Sailbeck, which is one of the tougher AMs. In terms of navigation I ran this one having checked it out on Google earth and worked out the one key bearing - most of this course is very obvious as you’re on the top of ridges.

The other classic Lakeland AMs in the spring are:

Coledale Horseshoe 

Newlands Memorial Race

Coniston

https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/

1
 DaveHK 23 Feb 2023
In reply to Rory Shaw:

> To me fell running implies self reliance, so an ability to navigate, route find and stay safe on rough, trackless and unmarked ground in any weather. This is as much a skill of fell running as the running itself.

You'd think that wouldn't you and most races even stipulate it. But a surprising number of 'fellrunners' are totally clueless about navigation!

 Michael Hood 23 Feb 2023
In reply to The New NickB:

> Fell running as opposed to train running 

No navigation required as long as the points are well marshalled 😁

 Jim Hamilton 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

More choices on the WFRA and BOFRA websites.

 lowersharpnose 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Don't do what I am doing.

Have just entered my first fell race,  The Edale Skyline.  It is over 20 miles, with plenty of up and down.

And, to cap it all, I woke up this morning and realized I am fecking ancient.  I had hoped I was about 40, but seems I am out by a couple of decades.

 compost 23 Feb 2023
In reply to lowersharpnose:

Go big or go home!

I have fond memories of a snowy Edale race, except for kicking a rock in the last 2 miles and breaking my big toe. The final descent was half-hopping and took forever :-D

OP rss91 23 Feb 2023

Wow, thanks all for the guidance! Clearly a very active community here.

Thanks for the tip on fell categories, I didn't know what they meant: AM's and BM's look perfect such as Kinder or Pen Y Ghent that have been mentioned.

I suppose the next question, do these races advertised on fellrunner have a welcoming feel which you'd get with a bigger event. They kind of feel like they're aimed at more hard core runner types. The running events which I've done in the past will have music, goodie bag etc. I know it's a pointless razzmatazz but gives a nice feeling for a beginner like me.

For example something like this, you know will be more of an event:

https://www.maverick-race.com/products/the-maverick-adidas-terrex-x-series-...

I just found this from a Google search, but it makes you wonder how many other events like this there are. And I suppose that's what I was alluding to in the OP, that there isn't a central place to look for these...

 Edshakey 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

> I suppose the next question, do these races advertised on fellrunner have a welcoming feel which you'd get with a bigger event.

Yes, if not more so. However it's very different...

> They kind of feel like they're aimed at more hard core runner types.

Not at all! They just aren't specifically marketed at beginners, mainly since they aren't marketed at all

> The running events which I've done in the past will have music, goodie bag etc. I know it's a pointless razzmatazz but gives a nice feeling for a beginner like me.

You will not find this at a fell race, it is almost diametrically opposed to what you will find! No razzmatazz, but that's the beauty of it - and how they can cost a fraction of the cost of commercial races.

> For example something like this, you know will be more of an event:

This will be "more of an event", if that's how you want to phrase it, but that is not necessarily better! Fell races are their own kind of event, and that's in no way a bad thing.

In summary... it doesn't sound like fell races are what you're looking for, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't give them a go! 

Hope that helps, good luck

 Levy_danny 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Fell races are pretty much the friendliest races going mate no need to worry about that. They’re no frills usually few quid to a tenner usually and a few quid to to chuck in the tin at the end for tea and cake. They can be fiercely competitive at the front but for mid pack runners and people bringing up the rest like myself just getting round the course is a great target. They can be tough though and I’ve thought to myself on quite a few occasions I’m never doing this again but usually I’m searching for the next race by the time I get home. I’m sure at most races there will be someone from here to say hello to if you let us know which race you’re going to. Watch out though you might get addicted. As well as fell runner there is an active Facebook group with races advertised etc as well I think it’s just called fell running. 

 deepsoup 23 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

> I know it's a pointless razzmatazz but gives a nice feeling for a beginner like me.

I think you might be conflating the pointless razzamatazz with inclusivity. 

My experience, as very much a non hardcore runner, is that little village and club fell races are very friendly and inclusive - you don't get a medal or a goody bag like you might from a commercial event with a much higher entry fee, but you do get a friendly vibe, a strong sense of camaraderie from most of the other runners (even the ones who are very, very much faster), and sometimes if you're lucky a flapjack or a cup of tea at the finish.

I've been thinking about the navigation thing, and I've decided to suggest something that's completely the opposite to what you want, in fine UKC style..

If the Peak is a long journey for you, it seems a shame to just do the one event.  There's a series of 3-hour mini mountain marathons in the Peak, which are all about navigation - I'm not going to suggest one of those - but the same organisers also do a series of 2-hour "run anytime" 2-hour events. 

It would be quite easy to combine one of those with other things, because you can do it on your own whenever you like.  Perhaps combine one with a fell-race over a weekend visit.

It's a cut-down simplified version of a mini-mountain marathon, I've done quite a few of them now and have found them very enjoyable, exploring bits of the Peak that I didn't know at all well in many cases, and my navigation has improved a lot with the practice.

Here's the format:  you download and print your own map.  (Or for a bit extra on the entrance fee you can have a waterproof one posted to you.)  The map is an orienteering-style 1:25k map, with no names on it but the course clearly laid out, and I find it a little easier to follow than the OS.  There are a bunch of 'controls' on there, which are not physically marked but you use an app on your smartphone to track your progress and give you a 'beep' to confirm each time you arrive at a control. 

You have two hours to visit as many as you can, but you lose points rapidly if you're late back, so there's the skill of it.  (Each control gets you 20 points, but every minute you take longer than 2hrs back to the finish loses 10 points.)

Unlike a 'proper' mountain marathon though, you can spend time poring over the map in advance weighing up your options and working out a route.  Once other people have done it, their times and the routes they took are even visible on the results site if you want to cheat and see what people did.  (What I generally do is 'onsight' my first go, and then find someone in the results who scored better than me without going much faster and check their route out to see how they did it.  Then do the race again to see if I can improve on my score.)

The first one of the current series has a 'social' start - you still do the event on your own, but you can meet the organisers and it'll have a bit more of the 'vibe' of their 3-hr 'mass participation' events.  (These events generally have a bit less camaraderie than a fell race I find - because there's no fixed course.  They're still friendly enough, but everyone is literally going their own way.)

If that sounds interesting at all, here's the link: https://explorerevents.co.uk/map-run/

 Marek 23 Feb 2023
In reply to DaveHK:

> You'd think that wouldn't you and most races even stipulate it. But a surprising number of 'fellrunners' are totally clueless about navigation!

Aye. Last time I did the Edale Skyline fell race there were about a dozen people milling around on a misty Brown Knoll with no idea which way to go. No maps, no compasses, no idea. I was tempted to let them head off toward Hayfield as was their wont, but sanity prevailed and I steered them at least roughly the right way. Gratitude? Most of them raced past me to the finish.

 steveriley 23 Feb 2023
In reply to Marek:

I had similar at Kentmere Horseshoe one year when the mist was down. Lots of people milling around somewhere near the col, eventually heading off in 3 directions. I went the ‘right’ way feeling smug …and went over on my ankle soon after

 Nic Barber 24 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Lots of good information here.

Kinder Downfall is probably a good suggestion for making a longer trip worthwhile, well defined route, plenty of people, a good bit of rock hopping on the edge. Weather usually clement but then again I have had snow on it at the end of April! As has been mentioned you shouldn't need to navigate on it, but need to be prepared to just in case. I'm biased though as grew up in the valley and ran for the organising club for a long time. Wolf's pit is a lung buster but well attended as early season. Again you can filter by area/distance/category on the FRA races page https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races.

Just remember to not conflate the distances with times you run on the road. Yes Kinder Downfall is just under 10 miles with 600m odd climb, but be prepared to be out for 1.5-2x what you'd expect to cover that on the roads. Not just because of the climb, but also the terrain (bit chossy up WIlliam Clough; rock hoping on the edge) which as a newcomer.

I'd say as a newcomer leave the big lakes Mediums (Fairfield, Coledale, Coniston) for a bit and get experience elsewhere on less committing ground. Lots of FAQs on the FRA website https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/faq/frequently-asked-questions though as I'm on the FRA committee I am biased!

Would you rather: a) contrived razzamataz, music, goody bag; or b) good hard race wherever you are in the field, cameraderie, flapjack in a napkin and a pint with someone who turns out to be the race winner? If A then maybe fellrunning isn't for you; if B then fill yer boots!

2
 petemeads 24 Feb 2023
In reply to lowersharpnose:

Thanks for the heads up on the Skyline race entry - I think!

I am in a similar position to you, plus a decade, but have always fancied racing the Skyline rather than sauntering it, and the cutoff times look achievable - but I have now got to find a convincing argument as to why I meet the qualifications for entry...

See you there if successful!

Pete

In reply to rss91:

> Wow, thanks all for the guidance! Clearly a very active community here.

Occasionally we get comments on social media saying 'why is UKC publishing running content', but threads like this prove that our audience does a whole lot more than climb!!

> I suppose the next question, do these races advertised on fellrunner have a welcoming feel which you'd get with a bigger event. 

I think this has been answered several times already, but I don't think there's anything much friendlier than a local fell race. The camaraderie is hard to beat, irrespective of where you are in the field - front, middle or back. Get chatting to folk on your way around too, as I often find that friendships are formed en route, then further cemented when you see each other again at a different race. 

On that note, whilst I don't do all that many races, hopefully I'll see you at one sometime later this year!

OP rss91 24 Feb 2023

Thanks all for the wonderful advice and you've convinced me that they're friendly too!

Kinder Downfall it shall be, and I've done that exact loop before so familiar with the terrain.

 deepsoup 24 Feb 2023
In reply to petemeads:

> but I have now got to find a convincing argument as to why I meet the qualifications for entry...

You said the cutoff times look achievable and you fancy doing it. That's enough innit? :⁠-⁠)

 petemeads 24 Feb 2023
In reply to deepsoup:

Yes but no - they want 2 AL races in the last year, or run the race in the last 5 years, or proof that you can cope with awful conditions and still navigate. And the entry list is full with 63 waiting so I fortunately don't have to beg to be allowed entry on my sub-minimal qualifications 😕

 deepsoup 24 Feb 2023
In reply to petemeads:

Ah, yeah, bit awkward.  (I had the wrong end of the stick - thought it was yourself you were trying persuade that you're up for it.)  Are there a couple of AL races that you fancy over the next year and then have another go?

 greg_may_ 24 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

First off, join the FRA, it'll pay itself back in race entries over time and you can also avail of our navigation courses, and first aid courses for _quite_ cheap. The FRA forum is also a wealth of information. 

Welcome to the gang - it's not trail racing - it's quite different and very friendly. 

Some of the AMs in the Lakes are literally classics. More experience needed before you move up to some of the ALs. Some require quite a bit of experience (Jura etc.)

Some of the shorter "flatter" races as you've described them....are anything but  

Post edited at 20:51
In reply to Levy_danny:

This looks like a great intro race. I'm in Ilkley and looking to start racing. Might enter.

 HardenClimber 25 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Don't completely rule out trail races. It is a bit of a false dichotomy. There is certainly some overlap - some trails venturing onto higher ground need  a bit more than just following markers. If you look at SIentries you will see a big spread if events, right up to one with all the bells. Obviously you pay a little bit more.

DOI I'm helping with https://www.sientries.co.uk/event.php?elid=Y&event_id=10991, a 13.5mile trail event in Malhamdale in May

 Eleanor_R1 26 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

Hello, 

I recommend having a look at this list;

http://keswickac.org.uk/tonkin-list-for-cheapskates/
 

Though it’s looking at cost, Tonk recommends some classic races with length and elevation noted, as well as some brief descriptions and a link to the fellrunner page for each race. It may help with your decision. 

 Mattyk 26 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:if you want a proper experience. 18 miles I think - Holme moss fell race is a great day out. Not a soft touch though so you need to like steep climbs.. probably not recommended as a first but maybe something to work to during the spring.

 Levy_danny 27 Feb 2023
In reply to Mattyk:

I proper underestimated this and it kicked my arse that’s after a good few fell races under my belt I wouldn’t recommend this as a first fell race even if you’re really fit. The descent down before the climb up to laddow rocks is horrific. 

 Jim Hamilton 27 Feb 2023
In reply to rss91:

> In terms of course, I'd want something shorter like 10-15km but would welcome reasonable amount of vertical. To give an idea of my ability, I recently did 9.4km/434m in 1h45.

I notice the upcoming Carrock Fell race seems to be a similar height gain/distance, but looking at results, a time of 1h45 would be last place by some some way. An 80 year old was 1/2 hour quicker last year! 

https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races/a6aad968-31dd-4935-a2f2-0bcf5b2dabc7

 Tom Briggs 27 Feb 2023
In reply to Levy_danny:

> I proper underestimated this and it kicked my arse that’s after a good few fell races under my belt I wouldn’t recommend this as a first fell race even if you’re really fit. The descent down before the climb up to laddow rocks is horrific. 

I wouldn't recommend it as in claggy weather there are a couple of tricky sections, but when I'm posting on UKC about fell running I tend to assume that people are also climbers. Hence my previous post about getting stuck into AMs. If you're used to being on steep ground then races with steeper/more technical sections are great fun.  Holme Moss was my first AL and hurling myself down that descent was just brilliant. The 10k from Black Hill to the finish less so

 Marek 27 Feb 2023
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

It been a while since I've done much running, but when I was doing more I always though that proper fell races were always 'hard', i.e., I was doing KIMM A class reasonably comfortably, but was always worried about cut-off times in AL fell races. The 'minimum' standard in fell races seemed much higher than in other running genres, even allowing for my preference for longer distances.

 Jim Hamilton 27 Feb 2023
In reply to Marek:

Looking at an AL, say Helvellyn and the Dodds, the last recorded finisher was 5 hours in 2022, more than twice the winning time, so any cut off not too onerous? 

 Levy_danny 27 Feb 2023
In reply to Tom Briggs:

I think I just can't switch my brain off enough haha, I found the steep climb up to Laddow rocks way more within my comfort zone. The last 10km were brutal I usually finish quite strong but just didn't have anything left in the tank at the end of this one other than to jog it in. I think after having a few ALs under my  belt and a few lakes AMs I didn't mentally prepare for it or taper at all thinking it would be easy and got my arse handed to me. Not for the first nor I imagine the last haha. 

Post edited at 13:59

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