UKC

may well end up doing the marathon cos of a space coming available. not planning on any training (i go bouldering 3-4 times a week and gave up smoking a coupleof years ago) but was wondering what i can do to reduce stitches...what causes them?

In reply to Tobs at work:

With no training you're going to suffer... Lots

In reply to Tobs at work:

Your insides unzipping themselves.. you have to wait a bit for the little numbskulls inside you to zip them back up. Easy really... anyone want me to explain impotence?

In reply to Tobs at work: How does bouldering and not smoking get you fit enough to run a marathon?!

In reply to catbaiter: but what causes stithces? is it a cramp? lactic acid?

not too bothered by suffering. good training for the summer in chamonix...

In reply to Tobs at work:

Is it your diaphram going into spasm (vague memories of this being the reason, but could quite easily be wrong)? I have found 'belly breathing' to be effective in eliminating them.

In reply to finkployd: yes please.

In reply to Tobs at work:

The reason for stitch is pretty simple. The inner organs are hanging from several ligaments, which, in turn, are fixed to the diaphragm, the muscular "plate" between chest and abdomen. Liver, spleen, stomach, small intestine and colon form a weight of several kilograms, hanging from the diaphragm. The impact of every step forces the inner organs to move downwards. Additionally, the diaphragm moves upwards on every expiration to force air out of the lungs. This continuous up/down stress may cause a cramp in the diaphragm: stitch. Stitch occurs most often on the right hand side because of the liver being the most heavy organ, and therefore the one stressing the diaphragm the most.



No training still sounds a bit daft.

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

is that what enables you to belch with such remarkable style?

anyway, interesting topic, I was wondering this myself. I heard one report that said that even doctors don't know what causes it, which i thought was a bit odd. I thought it was a stomach muscle going into spasm.

In reply to Wibble Wibble: thanks. do strong abs help prevent them?

In reply to Tobs at work:

Having *just* given up smoking and taken up running (going bouldering 3 times a week for over a year), I'd like to say - Suffering? Pah! You'll be dead. Absolutely no chance in hell of you doing it without training. Sorry.

Curly

In reply to Tobs at work:

No, looking like Peter Andre does not make you athletically fit. Just muscular.

In reply to Tobs at work:

Don't know, but getting aerobically fitter does.

Good luck though with the marathon. Maybe you're one of these naturally fit buggers who will be able to run with little training, but it's hurts like f*ck even when you do train. May I suggest you run/walk it - 10 mins running, 1 walking, right from the beginning.

In reply to Tobs at work:

Eat lots of banana's, helps reduce the build up of lactic acid and will make you more monkey like to help your climbing.

In reply to curlymynci: why don't you put your money where your mouth is? sponsor me - if i don't succeed i'll double your contribution.

In reply to catbaiter: very interesting, but I got a stitch last night treading water whilst playing ball gmaes in the deep end of the swimming pool. No impact involved there! isnt it more likely just to be a cramp of the diaphragm caused by lactic acid build up?

In reply to Tobs at work:

It is your kidneys working loose and ovaries wrapping themselves around you liver.


This is exacerbated by viscous butt sex.

In reply to Tobs at work:

Should imagine you'll get round- but will it really count as 'running'? I suspect not. Anyway, good luck and see you at the finish! (if I'm still there )

In reply to SC:

The great thing about eating bananas is that they taste the same in both directions... handy for when you are chucking your guts up because you've pushed your body so far by not training for a 26 mile run.

In reply to Tobs at work:

Who're you raising money for?

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Could be... I couldn't be arsed to type anything, so I just cut and pasted the first google entry I found!! I know that the pressure of the surrounding water squezes your torso, that might force the organs to touch the diaphram doing something similar to the running theory... But what do I know?!

In reply to curlymynci: Help the Hospices.

The original runner might still be able to do it so don't send any money yet

In reply to Tobs at work:

are you actually gail porter trolling this sounds like a suicide attempt!!!

C*

In reply to bendy:

i shall be knocking on all the doomsayers doors for sponsorship....

In reply to SC:

One reason why Bananas are quoted for reducing stitch is that that they are a good source of Potassium, as are potatoes - if I recall correctly.

Ir reply to this thread:

Another reason for getting stitch is having food, or too much water, in your stomach, which exacerbates the movements which catbaiter remarked on as being a cause earlier.

Since carb-loading is probably going to be necessary for energy for Tobs to run a Marathon, then eating a fair chunk of potatoes several days beforehand will increase potassium levels as well as providing carbs...

Although you'll need to verify whether Potatoes are a good source of Potassium...

In reply to Dominion: on a serious note. although i am not going to be training i was being a bit tongue in cheek. i used to run quite a bit (well, it was a decade ago...) but i am very skinny and can go all day in the mountains at a fairly high work rate (i've a pretty good feel as to my anaerobic threshold). as long as i'm carb-loaded to the max,keep the lucozade coming i'll be around in 4-5hrs.

In reply to Tobs at work:

Seriously old chum, I'm not exactly a chubber, I've ran cross-country in the nationals (12 years ago!), can still walk up anything you show me and keep going all day (easy ladies)... But there is no way I'd attempt a marathon without a shit load of training. If you're off to Cham it will only make things easier there too.

In reply to curlymynci: Having *just* given up smoking and taken up running (going bouldering 3 times a week for over a year), I'd like to say - Suffering? Pah! You'll be dead. Absolutely no chance in hell of you doing it without training. Sorry.

apart from just taken up running that sounds like me and on just an hour uphill walkin last weekend i nearly died. stitch happened when i was fast walking back down later too.

very very unfit it seems.

How can i stop being so unfit on uphill walk in s to crags? just keep on doing long walkin s to get used to it?

In reply to catbaiter: i know what your're saying. is just i sometimes like to really hurt myself you know? it isn't a race and i know physcially my body can do it so is just a matter of having the mental fortitude to get round. i do totally agree that the sensible way and most useful way for getting physcially fitter is to train but i just want to do something that involves a bit of suffering....the only thing i was worried about was stiches - they really hurt....

In reply to Adders: having just given up smoking you will find yourself getting fitter very quickly. you already know what the answer is...

In reply to Tobs at work:

Fair enough. But the only way to get rid of a stitch is to get fitter, and that means training. Otherwise it looks a little inevitable! If you do get stitch, slow down (by about 25%) and take longer deeper breaths, do this until all of the pain has subsided and you can breath normally, not gasp like a freshly landed trout. Then up the pace till it happens again.

Oh yeah, you forgot heart-burn too. You'll probably get that and it hurts more and wont go away unless you stop. Jesus, I'm a cheerful bugger aint I?

In reply to catbaiter:


And good luck, I hope you suceed and do well.

In reply to catbaiter: should i take some rennies with me?

In reply to Tobs at work: If you are going to do a marathon, I really would do some training. I presume you are reasonably fit, but that will only really get you half way, you need to condition your body for the distance, its not just about fitness. I have done a marathon with lots of training ie. upto 22 miles a few weeks before, also with not enough training due to injury, it makes a massive difference. No doubt you will get around, but if you do not train the second half will hurt like hell and be very slow.

If you are getting stitches a lot your body is probably not very well conditioned to running, the more you train the less the problem. If its London you are doing in a few weeks, I think you might have problems.

In reply to Adders:

It'll take months to get back some of your lost lung capacity from smoking. I have an idea from somewhere that stopping smoking also affects you hydration levels.

Getting a stitch walking downhill is likely to be caused by the jarring of the weight of your internal organs against your diaphragm. Start breathing from the stomach when walking (and that means when walking anywhere, every time).

Put your hand at about your solar plexus and use your stomach muscles when breathing out. Feel the muscles contract. That's what you are aiming for. This will improve your abdominal strength, and your diaphragm strength.

In reply to Dominion: cheer i ve taken note ( passed that test btw cheers for help )

i found that pushing my hand on where it hurt stoped it so i could carry on but it didnt go away until i stopped walking.

In reply to Adders:
>( passed that test btw cheers for help )

Woohoo! Been worrying about that


Yes, that would work as you are partially supporting the diaphragm, so stopping it from moving as much.

And back to the thread:

Another reason for stitches whilst walking or running is having a lopsided gait eg if you are protecting an injury on one side...

In reply to Tobs at work:

this may help:

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/forummessages.asp?UTN=11655

In reply to Dominion:

Or because you're unfit and a bit chunky.

In reply to catbaiter: oi who you calling fat. barsteward

In reply to Tobs at work:

Sorry to be boring and answer your original question, but 'Stitch' occurs during exercise due to contraction of the Spleen (which acts as a "blood reservoir").
Keep well hydrated and ensure your diet is rich in Iron (or take a suppliment).

Cheers,
H.D.

When I get a stitch whilst running, one method I have found to work is:

Stop running immediately, dig a couple of fingers just under your ribcage and press hard on the area of pain, whilst doing this exhale a long breath, a couple of breaths with long exhales (breathing out!) seems to get rid of the stitch, start running again immediately.

Matt

In reply to curlymynci:

>Having *just* given up smoking and taken up running (going bouldering 3 times a week for over a year), I'd like to say - Suffering? Pah! You'll be dead. Absolutely no chance in hell of you doing it without training.

Cobblers. I did it on a whim with no training whatsoever. Took me 5 hours 25 minutes mind, but a perfectly enjoyable day out.

jcm

In reply to Tobs at work: Lordy, what a thread.

Whoever mentioned that no-one is sure about stitches I'm fully in agreement with. I've trawled the usual medical websites and haven't come up with much.

So here's another cut'n'paste, for what that's worth. The pursed lip breathing increases pressures within the lungs at the end of expiration and so may reduce the pressure gradient across the diaphragm by the way.

>There are many theories and quite a few old wives' tales about stitches, but now a couple of exercise physiologists based in New South Wales, Australia, have put together a list of the top 10 facts and fallacies.

1. Stitch occurs in both fit and unfit people, and research suggests it is are unrelated to training frequency, training volume or performance level.

2. Stitch is most prevalent among younger athletes, but older athletes can still suffer from the problem.

3. Yes you can get a stitch in the shoulder! It appears that when the diaphragm and neighbouring tissues become irritated they can refer pain to the tip of the shoulder.

4. Studies have shown that you are more likely to suffer from stitch if you eat before a run. Drinking before a run can also be a contributing factor, but less so than eating a meal. Obviously you need to eat and drink before exercise to ensure an adequate energy supply, but research and anecdotal evidence suggests you should avoid the following:
carbonated drinks and those with a high concentration of sugar and salt; fatty foods; apples, bananas and chocolate.

5. The risk of stitch may be increased by exercising at high intensity, failing to warm up and working out in cold conditions. Best not go for a really hard run on a cold day without warming up then!

6. The theory that stitch is caused by lack of blood flow to the diaphragm doesn't hold up for three main reasons:
it does not account for why pain occurs low in the abdomen;
it does not explain why stitches occur during activities that do not seem to require high levels of respiratory activity (eg horse riding);
it is not consistent with the evidence that neither lung function nor breathing is affected by a stitch.

7. One of the most widely-accepted theories that stitches are caused by stress on the ligaments that attach the abdominal organs to the diaphragm during jolting activities like running may also be false. If it were true, why would swimmers - whose sport is relatively free from jolting movements - experience stitches?

8. The tissue that may be responsible for the pain is the parietal peritoneum, which envelops the abdominal cavity, separating the abdominal organs from the stomach muscles. This piece of tissue is sensitive to movement when irritated, which would explain why rest quickly relieves the pain. Additionally, part of the parietal peritoneum extends up and under the diaphragm, giving rise to the referred shoulder pain when irritated. What could cause this tissue to become irritated? One obvious answer is that if you fill your stomach with food and drink it's going to get bigger, causing it to push against - and so irritate - the parietal peritoneum.

9. Some breathing techniques may help to alleviate the problem. These include:
taking deeps breaths;
grunting as you exhale;
holding your breath;
breathing by bloating your abdomen in and out (belly breathing).

10. Most sufferers experience stitch in the same place each time, and the pain is commonly described as sharp or stabbing when severe, and cramping, aching or pulling when less severe.

So there you go. Hope that helps. I'm still feeling nauseous about John Rushby's viscous butt sex comment. Presumably free flowing low viscosity butt sex doesn't have this effect

In reply to Tobs at work: the worst thing that can happen is not dying. Without training you could easily come away with a nasty bit of Achilles tendonitis, ITBS or whatever and stuff the whole season's activity.

Mr Rushby is not quite right - it is not the butt sex but the associated activity of spleen flicking which is thought to lead to stitch

In reply to Tobs at work:

I've done the London Marathon twice on absolutely zero training, still coming in under 4 hours both times.

One February I was trotting merrily down the Creag Meagaidh descent gully, when my foot went down a deep "post hole" filled with powder, wrenching my knee. End of climbing for that winter season.

On a Tuesday night that April, I went for a little jog to see what the knee felt like. It seemed OK, so the following Sunday I ran the marathon, no bother.

To put this into a bit of context, I've never smoked, and have now done coming up to 70 marathons over the last couple of decades. Blasé, moi?

You can do a lot to relieve stitches by changing your breathing pattern while running. If you direct your attention to your breathing when you're running, you will find that it's very likely that your initial hard breath out coincides with one particular foot (Usually the right) hitting the ground every time.

If you get a stitch, changing the phase of your breathing to coincide with the other foot can sometime bring virtually instant relief, almost as if by magic.

Why not do a few training runs, anyway? Chances are you'll get hooked.

Running is great. Go for it!

In reply to Tobs at work:

To what?..., your indolent failure fund? GET FIT dullard! You can walk half the distance on a marathon & still post a respectable time,so long as you don`t mind being beaten by a guy/girl in a wheelchair!

In reply to Matt Pedley: thats what i did when i used to do long distance, if i got a stitch, still have to break stride though, starting is again hard once knackered.

without trainning, you wont manage a marathon, bouldering will do nothing to help you! you use your legs airobically, not your arms anerobically! good luck youll need it!

In reply to wizz walker:


....and since the World Record for a wheelchair Marathon is getting on for an hour faster than the fastest runner?

In reply to Dominion:

Bugger! Note to self: Don`t post when drunk!
But still, let`s face it the guy hasn`t got a prayer without training?

In reply to wizz walker:

He has a prayer. He's likely to be very sore for weeks afterwards. Any training he does is more likely to make the soreness be less extreme, and go away quicker...

In reply to wizz walker:

Unfortunately the injustices of genetics mean that this isn't necessarily true. If he has a high VO2max (which is almost entirely genetically determined) he could pootle round at say 50% of this, whereas ordinary punters with a lower VO2 max would have to train for 40 miles a week to get round at 75% of their lower level, at pretty much the same pace.

There's the small matter of lactate threshold too, which means it's not quite as bleak for the trained punter, but broadly some people can get away with it.

In reply to wizz walker:



nice to see people not making judgements without any real knowledge of the subject....

In reply to Tobs at work:

Best of luck and I'll give you a tenner if you finish it.